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Will Wulfey be taking up arms for BAO also?

Cawls 9” bubble isn’t bad after all the nerfs to CP regen and just how meh the other Admech WLTs are

 Suzuteo wrote:
Made some changes:

Spoiler:

Mars Battalion Detachment - 1310
Cybernetica Cohort (-1 CP)

HQ - 280
1x Belisarius Cawl - Warlord: Static Psalm-Code
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus - Transonic Cannon, Relic: Raiment of the Techno-Martyr

Troop - 270
3x Kataphron Breacher - 3x Heavy Arc Rifle, 3x Arc Claw
3x Kataphron Breacher - 3x Heavy Arc Rifle, 3x Arc Claw
3x Kataphron Breacher - 3x Heavy Arc Rifle, 3x Arc Claw

Heavy Support - 440
4x Kastelan Robot - 12x Heavy Phosphor Blaster

Fast Attack - 320
4x Ironstrider Ballistarii - 4x Twin Cognis Lascannon

Graia Battalion Detachment - 210

HQ - 60
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer

Troop - 150
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 5x Radium Carbine
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 5x Radium Carbine
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle

House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 478

Lord of War - 478
1x Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon, Heavy Flamer, 2x Heavy Stubber

Total: 1998 points
13 CP (-3)

Wulfey tested the Icarus Autocannon. Apparently, it drastically underperforms due to lack of Cawl rerolls and any plus hit stratagem. Took the opportunity to just add another unit of Skitarii. I would add the Stormspear, but I am not sure I have enough time to finish painting my new one.

Also, multiple people report that this sort of castle concept with Breachers only works if you make Cawl the Warlord. Also because snipers are apparently everywhere and will gun down an Enginseer really fast.

What about considering the Manipulus as the warlord - give him the static psalm code - would there be some benefit in making his bolster weapons/warriors +3" range?

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Will Wulfey be taking up arms for BAO also?

Cawls 9” bubble isn’t bad after all the nerfs to CP regen and just how meh the other Admech WLTs are

Yup.

I think the meta has been really shaken up. We now have the best gunline. (Tau has the best gunline in absolute terms, but we outrange them, so we technically have the better gunline because we have a better matchup thanks to Manipulus.) We have +2 to hit, massive mortal wound output, access to a solo Knight for faction purposes, and above average durability to boot. The only shortcoming we have is a lack of non-LOS shooting.

 The Forgemaster wrote:
What about considering the Manipulus as the warlord - give him the static psalm code - would there be some benefit in making his bolster weapons/warriors +3" range?

Rerolls are more important IMO. Being able to keep Robots, Breachers, and Ironstriders 22" apart is a big deal. I mean, I will have to move within 12" of enemies once and awhile, but my Robots may be rooted.

Cawl Aura is fine with out buffing to 9" for me especially after the changes to fly that again returned ad mech first 1-2-3 Rounds to castle up.

But your list

Especially if you want to move out with breachers go offensive your list does not have a dominus that definetly requires hermeticon and buffs breachers at least with rerolling 1 in shooting and all in melee .

So you dont need hermeticon you dont want breachers to move out till 1-2-3 and they are not fast to move only after round 3 then 100% Cawl warlord. So you actually use breachers only for screener shooter (main role).

You should consider since you will remain castle with breachers to remove a ranger squad or vanguard. add 2* servitors. better campers better melee counter unit and the ability if you want to revive breachers remain.
IF it does not suit you since you got only 9 and units of 3*3 aceptable. But you should maybe make one big unit of breachers and buff it with vigilus for the extra +1 or revive options do the math. I m not sure but if you go against planes i would suggest ( not sure) to make one of your troops go to fill the top battalion and split more breachers to one unit. etc etc if you can make only one an dmake it vigilus all the better especially vs planes. I dont know i believe its possible and better since you seem to already take 6-7 troop units so with vanguards you wont miss mobility to the map.

so your two battalions should look like

3*5 vanguard

2*5 rangers

1*8 breachers
1* servitors

or close to that. As i said not sure but should be valid for buffs.

have you seen the newest regimental standard? (https://regimental-standard.com/2019/05/22/adeptus-mechanicus-announce-new-transport-after-running-out-of-wheels/)

its about our new transport. I know i shouldnt use this as source of official information but it does mention that it uses hover technology and mentions its "open topped armor".

So taking on board a lot of the recent discussion I'm going to try running this list below, the caveat is that I don't have dakabots and would really try to get a list with out them. I was wondering is the agrapinna strat worth losing the re-roll of 1? Would it be better to just have all the kataphrons as the same forgeworld as the dominus? As I'm not really sure how often I would acutally use the fresh converts strat, I'll be pushing the mixed battalion forward while the stygies one sits back with the long range doing it's stuff.

VladimirHerzog wrote:
have you seen the newest regimental standard? (https://regimental-standard.com/2019/05/22/adeptus-mechanicus-announce-new-transport-after-running-out-of-wheels/)

its about our new transport. I know i shouldnt use this as source of official information but it does mention that it uses hover technology and mentions its "open topped armor".

Yeah I really hope they're not just messing with us or it didn't have some kind of stupid restriction or penalty for its open-ness lol

i dont really see any valid restriction because open topped.
Its bulky enough where you'd expect it to be T8, but open topped generally means -1T than usual and nothing else anymore.
I'd be rather surprised to see it be T6 and thats the worst open-topped related thing that could happen.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i dont really see any valid restriction because open topped.
Its bulky enough where you'd expect it to be T8, but open topped generally means -1T than usual and nothing else anymore.
I'd be rather surprised to see it be T6 and thats the worst open-topped related thing that could happen.

I'd love for it to be venom-level of undercosted.

what so we can be the next gripe-target?
I never want my stuff to feel undercosted, because then i feel like a prick using them since they are clearly better than their points suggest.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
what so we can be the next gripe-target?
I never want my stuff to feel undercosted, because then i feel like a prick using them since they are clearly better than their points suggest.

Oh i know, i was just comparing the venom as an open topped transport and it being open topped doesnt really make it lose something.

 Yoda79 wrote:
Cawl Aura is fine with out buffing to 9" for me especially after the changes to fly that again returned ad mech first 1-2-3 Rounds to castle up.

But your list

Especially if you want to move out with breachers go offensive your list does not have a dominus that definetly requires hermeticon and buffs breachers at least with rerolling 1 in shooting and all in melee .

So you dont need hermeticon you dont want breachers to move out till 1-2-3 and they are not fast to move only after round 3 then 100% Cawl warlord. So you actually use breachers only for screener shooter (main role).

You should consider since you will remain castle with breachers to remove a ranger squad or vanguard. add 2* servitors. better campers better melee counter unit and the ability if you want to revive breachers remain.
IF it does not suit you since you got only 9 and units of 3*3 aceptable. But you should maybe make one big unit of breachers and buff it with vigilus for the extra +1 or revive options do the math. I m not sure but if you go against planes i would suggest ( not sure) to make one of your troops go to fill the top battalion and split more breachers to one unit. etc etc if you can make only one an dmake it vigilus all the better especially vs planes. I dont know i believe its possible and better since you seem to already take 6-7 troop units so with vanguards you wont miss mobility to the map.

so your two battalions should look like

3*5 vanguard

2*5 rangers

1*8 breachers
1* servitors

or close to that. As i said not sure but should be valid for buffs.

I would need to cut two Breachers for that, since I am adding 60 points. I also would lose Cohort, so the Robots cannot run and gun. A lot of my game plans still require me to have a strong Robot alpha. I think you might be right and this is probably the better way to run the army. However, there is a huge gap in experience between you and me on Breachers. I am much more comfortable with Robots, so I will focus on my Robots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Question about Breacher use: Do I place them behind my Skitarii or in front of them? And I assume the Knight should stay off to the side to counter charge?

That's pretty dependent in what you are screening against.
E.g. against a Kraken GS bomb I would put Breachers in front. Against things like say a SG bomb I would first use my skitarii

So if it's good against Breachers, put the Skitarii in front? Lol. Seems straightforward enough.

 Suzuteo wrote:
So if it's good against Breachers, put the Skitarii in front?

Basically yes.

So with viable transports are dominuses... dominii..... the big tech priests, viable cc units now?

I'm confirming, a layer of Skitarii ahead of Breachers takes their suvivability quite high. Vanguards+Breachers layered screens have stopped so far dajumped Boyz, Orc Bikes, Tzangoors, a Magnus, and knights. Vanguards have proved to be quite an asset (if any survived) when it came to counter-punching afterwards. It will be significantly weaker setup against double activation units but hey - at least the Zerkers will be forced to fight the Breachers instead of the gunline component.

dadamowsky wrote:
I'm confirming, a layer of Skitarii ahead of Breachers takes their suvivability quite high. Vanguards+Breachers layered screens have stopped so far dajumped Boyz, Orc Bikes, Tzangoors, a Magnus, and knights. Vanguards have proved to be quite an asset (if any survived) when it came to counter-punching afterwards. It will be significantly weaker setup against double activation units but hey - at least the Zerkers will be forced to fight the Breachers instead of the gunline component.

yeah, having multi-layered screens against assault armies is really important. I played against a genestealer spam tyrannid army and forced him to charge vanguards, while my electropriests and dragoons were waiting for the countercharge.

that game didnt last long.

How many infiltrators is enough? Especially when you play around 2500pts?

 Gangland wrote:
How many infiltrators is enough? Especially when you play around 2500pts?

at 2000 i'll usualy try to fit at the very least one squad of 5 for map control.
If i were to paly at 2500, i would 100% take 2 squads of 5, maybe even 3 if the points allow it.

However, infiltrators arent super popular in competetive builds since they only gak with wrath of mars in a full-size unit.

 Spera wrote:

VladimirHerzog wrote:

Morkphoiz wrote:
I'm gonna attend a 1.5k Tourney in a bit. They've got some REALLY harsh restrictions like:

-you can only have one unit twice, everything else must be single squads instead of one Troop choice which you can take up to four times

-must be one batallion

-monstrous creatures and the likes can only be in squads of three max.

So I came up with this for inducing Maximum Rage:

Stygies trait

1 Dominus with necromechanic and lands relic

1 Enginseer

1x3 Breachers with Heavy Arc

3x3 Destroyers with Grav/Flamer

1 Datasmith

2x3 Dakka Kastelans

1 Onager with Neutron Laser and Stubbers


I intend to Castle up in the backfield, shield my Kastelans with the Kataphrons and discourage Close Combatants with the 9 Flamers I have at my disposal.
Then Dakka away at everything and repair incoming damage with my characters if possible.

Also Stygies and 2 rounds of Shroudpsalm (via Stratagem) should help.

What do you guys think? Is that cheesy enough?

phew, those are some harsh restrictions.

I personally wouldnt attend an event that added so many restrictions. I'm guessing these restrictions are there because they want to avoid some sort of cheese that was there is the past.

Some armies cant realistically play a battallion without seriously nerfing themselves.

Just to show that the rules are dumb, i'd bring 2x6 destroyers in a ryza servitor maniple. Sprinkle some onagers in there and add some normal servitors to recycle your destroyers.

As long as those don't apply to every-single-goddamn-event organized there, restrictions aren't bad. They can shake up things a little bit, prevent dumb net listing and incentivize smart and innovative list building. So don't bash them, you may not like it, just don't play it and don't bash.

Mork, well, on what you will use your command points? I don't see many uses for those 8 cp, and admech is stratagem centric.

Annihilation Volley, Double repair, chant for two Rounds of shroudpsalm

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gangland wrote:
How many infiltrators is enough? Especially when you play around 2500pts?

at 2000 i'll usualy try to fit at the very least one squad of 5 for map control.
If i were to paly at 2500, i would 100% take 2 squads of 5, maybe even 3 if the points allow it.

However, infiltrators arent super popular in competetive builds since they only gak with wrath of mars in a full-size unit.

Mostly play casual though we all try to win heh.

Agamembar wrote:
So taking on board a lot of the recent discussion I'm going to try running this list below, the caveat is that I don't have dakabots and would really try to get a list with out them. I was wondering is the agrapinna strat worth losing the re-roll of 1? Would it be better to just have all the kataphrons as the same forgeworld as the dominus? As I'm not really sure how often I would acutally use the fresh converts strat, I'll be pushing the mixed battalion forward while the stygies one sits back with the long range doing it's stuff.

Spoiler:

Battalion Detachment
Forge World: <Mixed>
Specialist Detachment: Servitor Maniple

Tech-Priest Dominus Ryza, Warlord Trait (CA): Master of Biosplicing
Tech-Priest Enginseer Agrapinna

+ Troops [64 PL, 609pts] +

4x Kataphron Breachers Agrapinna
4x Kataphron Breachers Agrapinna
5x Kataphron Destroyers Ryza

5x Skitarii Vanguard Graia
5x Skitarii Vanguard Graia
5x Skitarii Vanguard Graia

4x Servitor Graia
4x Servitor Graia
8x Sicarian Infiltrator Mars

Battalion Detachment

Forge World: Stygies VIII

Tech-Priest Dominus
Tech-Priest Enginseer

5x Skitarii Ranger, 2x Transuranic Arquebus
5x Skitarii Ranger, 2x Transuranic Arquebus
5x Skitarii Vanguard

2x Ironstrider Ballistarius Twin Cognis Lascannon

4x Sydonian Dragoons

Onager Dunecrawler Icarus Array
Onager Dunecrawler Icarus Array
Onager Dunecrawler Icarus Array

I think you're trying to have too many combos/threats in a single bag and so it ends up being kinda messy. First you need to tell us what is your battle plan, do you want to have a static gunline castle, a moving gunline, half melee/half shooting list ? In what will you invest your CPs ? I recommend not mixing too many combos because you'll run out of CP really fast. You start with 12 CP, you'll want to give a 5++ to at least the Destroyers (-1 CP), give them +2 to Hit in the Shooting phase (-3 CP), use Plasma Specialists (-1 CP). That's already -5 CP just in the first turn and prior for the Destroyers. Now with the 7 CP remaining you can give +2 to Hit to the Ballistarii and/or Dragoons (-1 CP each), return a Breacher Squad (-2 CP for 16 PL), use WoM on the Infiltrators (-2 CP). So with the average 2 CP remaining you can deny a psychic power (-1 CP) or use Acquisition At All Cost (-2 CP) and now you're out of CP. Have two big CP eaters in your list maximum or else you'll quickly run dry.

Another advice would be to change your <Forge-Worlds> in a more synergistic way. For example, your Agripinaa Enginseer serves no actual purpose, he can't repair anything except Vehicles and there's no Agripinaa Vehicles. Have him as Graia for more psychic denial potential or even Ryza so that he can defend himself a bit more with his 2 attacks. If you have a Manipulus or a proxy for it I suggest replacing the Enginseer by a Ryza Manipulus so that he can at least boost the range.

Agripinaa's dogma is quite powerful actually, so you might also want to run a clean detachment. Agripinaa Icarus Crawlers are nice in Overwatch, and if you have a Raiment of the Technomartyr nearby it can be even better.

But your list is going in too many directions at once to give clear advice without tidying it up. The ideas are good and the list is, I believe, threatening, but you'll run out of CP faster than a Smash Captain and it might be a little too much TAC. I hope you see what I mean and take it as friendly advice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On another subject I'm building three lists (Mars, Ryza and Graia) and I'm wondering where do Hoplites fit best considering they can't have dogmas, Forge-World-specific stratagems, or bonus from any characters. The only thing they have access to for support are Canticles, Doctrina stratagems and the Omniscient Mask, as it buffs <Skitarii>. I'm leaning towards Mars, because multiple Canticles with Cawl helps them keeping the +1S/reroll 1s to Hit. Ryza is interesting in the sense where it's a list with 6 Ryzaphrons, the rest being the usual stuff, as well as CC units that actually benefit from the dogma. So they won't be alone in the front lines, they'll have support from 4 Fistellans and 3 Dragoons, I'm tempted therefore to send an Omniscient Enginseer to support the blob with rerolls.

What do you think ? I've completed my drafts for Mars and Ryza but I didn't include the 10 Hoplites in the Ryza list yet.

Also, are we in agreement to send massed emails to Forge World FAQ service so that they remove the Titan Guard rule that prevents them from having a Forge-World as it makes no sense ? I'm even willing to up the cost to 10 pts/model if they do that. And they'll probably won't be able to ride the Dunerider with this stupid rule.

 Aaranis wrote:

This is a great analysis, thanks, I think I've fallen into the trap of trying to use all the cool toys and I'm hurting myself, I suppose I could just go one batt as Agripinna and the other as Stygies and switch to the Grav for the destroyers since then its a nice guarenteed 5 shots which works out better for the dogma, just need to work the points which if I ditch the inlitrators is easy as to be honest I just have the WoM and getting down the board but mostly they just seem to die, in so that way I only need to care about the fresh convert strat. I want to push the kataphron batt forward so pressure the oppent and get objectives with the vanguard in there helping or maybe use a partol to get access to the graia strat and move the vanguard into there as it seems super helpful to have that but I'm not sure yet.

Overall, do we think the best in faction AdMech army has or does not have a Knight?

I'm having a hard time fitting one in with a Brigade, and I don't think I'll have enough command points to feed a Knight and two battalions.

I think the Knight adds consistency and is very compact. It's an extremely well-rounded way to spend 500 points. There is nothing in particular that a Knight does poorly.

That being said, 3x6 Agripinaa Breachers are probably better. Lol.

If you are doing a Brigade, definitely don't try to fit in a Knight.

In my opinion Ad Mech don't do Brigades particularly well and are best with 3 x Battalions. We've good good, cheap Troops and decent HQs and it's far easier to fit our workhorse units into a set of Battalions than be constricted by the requirements of a Brigade.

Knights are great and synergistic allies for our army, the only fault I find in them is that they take a detachment slot that doesn't provide CP (with the Auxiliary SHD anyway) whilst also being quite CP intensive. That's why I can imagine a Krast Styrix works pretty well, particularly for players that come across Titanic units regularly, as after a relic and WLT it doesn't really need any more CP spent on it.

Problem with triple battalion is that you will be spending lots of points on stupid TPEs

 lash92 wrote:
Problem with triple battalion is that you will be spending lots of points on stupid TPEs

Indeed. Still well worth the sacrifice for 15 CP though and they can still be used for repairing, holding objectives, relics, blocking deepstrike etc but they are pretty terrible for sure.

xlDuke wrote:
In my opinion Ad Mech don't do Brigades particularly well and are best with 3 x Battalions. We've good good, cheap Troops and decent HQs and it's far easier to fit our workhorse units into a set of Battalions than be constricted by the requirements of a Brigade.

Knights are great and synergistic allies for our army, the only fault I find in them is that they take a detachment slot that doesn't provide CP (with the Auxiliary SHD anyway) whilst also being quite CP intensive. That's why I can imagine a Krast Styrix works pretty well, particularly for players that come across Titanic units regularly, as after a relic and WLT it doesn't really need any more CP spent on it.

The AdMech Brigade is awesome. 60 pts to fill all eliteslots? awesome. Heavy support with duncrawlers and bots? yes please. Even laserbalistarii instead of Dragoons are worth it atm. The only problem is the concept behind it and with which forgeworld you want to achieve your goals. But Id always pick a brigade over 3 battalions any day of the week. Esp because AdMech still needs support from other sources such as Assassins and Smash Captains.

I am still a bit sad elimination volley only works for destroyers but not for breachers...