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 ph34r wrote:
There are many bad units in Adeptus Mechanicus to avoid:

Large units of Skitarii are bad, morale destroys them.
Eradication Beamer on the Dunecrawler is bad. I would rip it off and replace with Neutron Laser.
Kataphrons are just bad, don't take any.

To be honest I've found the Eradication Beamer fine, but I can see it being underwhelming if you are after a dedicated role rather than a ok against most things gun. Is the issue with morale being that as you are capped at units of 10 that you don't have the numbers to soak any bad morale rolls as 8 isn't awful as far as leadership goes?

Wayniac wrote:

Yoda79 wrote:
For Wayniac

You LL need a lot more cp s.

Move snipers on Mars and make it a battalion.
Make Robots one unit.

Remove inf. Pick one more onager and make stygies spearhead with 1*3 unit dragoons and 3 onagers.
More or less same list with no infiltrators but with a good unit of dragoons. 7 cp infiltrate dragoons wrath of mars on Robots or use elimination volley on destroyers with Cawl rerolls for 3d6 overcharged plasma hitting both robots and one unit destroyers on 3+ vs air 4+. Next step make destroyers one unit as well add one more sniper unit! Nice list!

Tip destroyers and rangers will have to screen for your army especially Robots.

Hmm I haven't really focused on CPs that much in list building, that seems to be a mistake. I'll see what I can do to rework.

You will want enough to be able to use Wrath a few times and Binharic once, for sure. I would say 7-9 CP is where we want to be, at least - which is at least one Battalion and one other detachment.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

Yoda79 wrote:
For Wayniac

You LL need a lot more cp s.

Move snipers on Mars and make it a battalion.
Make Robots one unit.

Remove inf. Pick one more onager and make stygies spearhead with 1*3 unit dragoons and 3 onagers.
More or less same list with no infiltrators but with a good unit of dragoons. 7 cp infiltrate dragoons wrath of mars on Robots or use elimination volley on destroyers with Cawl rerolls for 3d6 overcharged plasma hitting both robots and one unit destroyers on 3+ vs air 4+. Next step make destroyers one unit as well add one more sniper unit! Nice list!

Tip destroyers and rangers will have to screen for your army especially Robots.

Hmm I haven't really focused on CPs that much in list building, that seems to be a mistake. I'll see what I can do to rework.

You will want enough to be able to use Wrath a few times and Binharic once, for sure. I would say 7-9 CP is where we want to be, at least - which is at least one Battalion and one other detachment.

Sounds good. I can easily rework what I have (I really want to field the 6 destroyers because I have them and they look really cool) into a Battalion + a Spearhead. That should be a start.

Something to consider is that even the smallest AM side detachment can add a lot of CP. If you make one of the AM characters your warlord you can give him the 5+ to get a CP when your enemy uses a strategem relic and the 5+ to get a CP for every CP you spend warlord trait (this also comes with 1 free reroll during the battle). You give up Cawl's 9" aura for a 6" aura, but the relic/WLtrait is at least 4 extra CP over 5 turns. EDIT: for instance, in my list I am going to have one of my 40 point elysian commanders be my WL and keep him off the board until turn 3. But since he exists, I get the 5+ whenever either player uses a strategem.

On InControl's list, I do think it is the essentially the best pure AM list. Only change I would make would be splitting the dragoons into 3s to ensure that every dragoon that makes combat can always swing. A unit of 3 can always full swing since the rear two can just base to base the 1 that is combat and be "within 1" of a friendly model in base". But that 6 stack of dragoons is a massive donkey punch if you get first turn and nail the infilitrate. I really need a third dragoon bad.

EDIT2: on the subject of destroyers, for 100 points you can buy a bunker. You can then put the destroyers in the bunker for the first turn and they are effectively invincible. This guarantees you get to shoot with all your destroyers even if you get second turn. If you are going to put a knight titan's worth of points into a stack of 4+ save models it may be worth beefing them up with a bunker. You will have to get them out to get the benefit of auras, but that beats losing them all to simple bolter/autocannon fire on turn 1.

EDIT3: Yeah, i used to run Greyfax specifically for her LD10 bubble. The new codex and my need for drop troops has taken so many points that I can't run her anymore. The 3 detachments thing in ITC also hinders my ability to splash in inquisitors.

Wulfey wrote:
Something to consider is that even the smallest AM side detachment can add a lot of CP. If you make one of the AM characters your warlord you can give him the 5+ to get a CP when your enemy uses a strategem relic and the 5+ to get a CP for every CP you spend warlord trait (this also comes with 1 free reroll during the battle). You give up Cawl's 9" aura for a 6" aura, but the relic/WLtrait is at least 4 extra CP over 5 turns.

I've even taken a Supreme Command Detachment of Inquisitors (Greyfax, Coteaz and one generic) to get a Psychic phase and that extra CP.

I don't have the books here, but I'm pretty sure they gave out their Ld characteristics in a 6" bubble too.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:Anyone else struggling to find a build they like or is it just me?

Also, anyone notice the big point jump for Scions? Clever, GW. Nearly doubling the cost of Plasma guns for them.

Yes, I'm greatly confused as to how to theme my army for now. I think it has to do with the fact people prefer 2000 pts games at my store so I have to fit everything in my collection to have those points, but it kinda kills the choices and synergies I can make. It's hard for me to leave some units behind just because of this, even if they're not worth it on the list (like my lone Dragoon). I think I'll just play 1500 pts games from now on, even if that gets me less games at least I'd have a list that looks decent and won't be drown in enemy armour with no answer to them.

It was fair to up the price for Plasma, it was too cheap for what it did. I play 2 plasma and 2 meltas in my Command Squad and it doesn't change anything for me. Spam of powerful stuff at great scale will always be nerfed from now on, that's one of the reasons I love variety a bit in my lists.

I'd really like to try Ryza for the plasma Destroyers. I'll test it in a 1500 pts game as soon as I've build my Bullgryn Kataphrons.

Anyone sees a use for cheapo Breachers ? My biggest issue is their low accuracy, I don't trust most single shot weapons, especially on 4+ models, and the Heavy Arc Rifle looks designed for heavy infantry rather than destroying Vehicles. It would've been nice if they'd made the Arc weaponry something like "Always wound Vehicles on 4+" or something, with a small price hike of course. Cheapest Breachers are around 140 pts for three 3W T5 3+(2+ in cover)/6++ models, with a rather good morale, but I'd rather invest in two 6-7 man squads of Vanguards with special weapons.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Yeah, sorry. Missed the word "repairing".
He said that to use it, you need:
the dude with it to be next to the dude you need repairing
roll poorly on the repair

And that happens so rarelly, that the artifact seems useless

The Autocaduceus pretty much lets you reroll D3 results of 1s, so 33% chance to reroll. Outcome is improved by 16.67%, which is not bad.

But yeah, what would be the alternative?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Anyone else struggling to find a build they like or is it just me?

Also, anyone notice the big point jump for Scions? Clever, GW. Nearly doubling the cost of Plasma guns for them.

I hope the profile carries over for Elysians. But yeah, plasma is still good, just not broken.

Breachers are just junk in 2000 ITC tuned list games. They have no role. They aren't that tough for their points and their damage output is pretty bad for their points. At 2000 points you can get in too many strong combos that make the inefficiency of the breachers too harsh.

If you are playing fluffy mono-book lists at 1500 I think they have a role. Especially if the board size is smaller. Breachers only really get their value if there are transports to shoot at and if they can get a charge on a transport.

THe basic problem of breachers is that their weapon profile is in a bad place. They lack the volume of fire of Kastelons or the high str of Onagers. For the breacher to really start kicking ass you need your opponent to bring T6 vehicles.

Suzuteo wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Yeah, sorry. Missed the word "repairing".
He said that to use it, you need:
the dude with it to be next to the dude you need repairing
roll poorly on the repair

And that happens so rarelly, that the artifact seems useless

The Autocaduceus pretty much lets you reroll D3 results of 1s, so 33% chance to reroll. Outcome is improved by 16.67%, which is not bad.

But yeah, what would be the alternative?

Only the Autocaduceus is auto-take to me, I'd go for the Raiment of the Technomartyr if I'd really want to take something else. If running Graia the Techno-Mite would be my 1st choice too.

Just because of how bad the repair artifact is, I'm still leaning to the OmniMask. It's like cawl in Fight phase... Kinda :p

Also seriously, I really feel that Autocaduceus is terrible. I mean, it's just 0-2 wounds per game. Like, how's that an "autotake"
Technomartyr gives you 1 hit every 36 overwatch attacks. That is also terrible.

For me the choice is:
OmniMask
Solar Flare(but you have to take Lucius)
Xi-Lexum(but you have to take Agripinaa)
Techno-Mitre(but you have to take Graia)

Leaving me with only 1 choice pretty much.

There is something to be said about: Anzion's bonus D6 attacks and the Ryza weapon. But meh...

Well all comes down. On the lists you decide to play.

All units got some role. I great example is balistarii and onagers.

Same goes for vanguard and brechers etc.

When you drop in points or you need to make a detachments you just utilise more units. If you play Monopoly detachment lists on few points a tankish unit like breachers can win a relic easily.
You believe like me the sweet point of antitank is 3 neutronagers.
Ok but robots and 2 onagers fill the slots . You can sub with 2 stygia lascannons easily. Maybe not same but close enough role wise.

If you need to increase durability and you already filled all slots yes breachers can be really tough. Basic 3+ with shroud 2+ and with gem +1 saves +1 attack can win a game.

Point wise 141 points =onager. No way I'd prefer brechers but it's troop vs heavy. There is the really issue.

And I can say this to be valid also for inflirators that I consider overpriced but have a role especially for single Mars detachments . You take a Mars brigade then you take infiltrators.

Now all these are valid as long as we talk max 1850 points semi competitive.
Cause as many mentioned.

Cawl 6 robots with an imperium soup Greyfax guard relic and gems for extra cp even Creed for more more cp etc etc we going this talk a far different talk.

As for 2k points. So many say we re different people cause we only interested for competitive games bla bla.
This is pathetic attitude. From all aspect. When someone builds a big list of 2k he will have a combo like it or not. Might not be optimisez might not have knights for friendly games or dunno what but even the. Most simple of lists will have something. Even if it has a spam troops it's. Plan. We to explain s much as possible to make all players have fun. Not go and play a game and see you become a target practice. And 8th edition can finish in turn one.
Don't take Cawl ok. Use dragoon 1*1 and 1*1 for screener and fluff I'm with you. But it's one thing to know how to utilise unite effectively and another if you will have the units or plan to buy bla bla .

So if you gonna invest heavy in destroyers plasma . Then invest in Mars Ryza Agripinaa. There is your plan.
Breachers stygia Graia mars. Etc

I don't say this to be a smart man. Merelly pinpoint the obvious. E said 100 times adeptus mechanicus in 8th requires some focus.

Destroyers cost you 216 points either use them with a bunker or with Cawl or tpd but will be effective if taken 1*6. Why better buff deploy gem usage etc. Provide screener hide them plce them so you move and shoot to start off enemy range etc

Why cuss it's not your best unit and if you go play like they re robots and enemy kills 216 point of unit with lasguns you LL cry.

Just try to make it work and present a plan and how you believe it will work. Just putting a list won't do nothing

All of our relics suck, all of them.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
All of our relics suck, all of them.

Seriously. They are terrible. Here are 4 game changing relics from AM, they are miles ahead of anything admech get. If you want to play competitively, why not make sure your side battalion has Kurov's Aquila? Yeah AM warlords are squishy, but they can be hidden out of LOS pretty easy.

Laurels of Command: on a 4+ you can give a second order to the same unit
Kurov's Aquila: on a 5+ you get a CP every time opponent uses a strategem (I am going to run this, it feels mandatory)
Dagger of Tu'Sakh: outflank for character and one infantry squad
Relic of Lost Cadia: reroll 1s hit/wound within 12" of bearer for 1 turn, if against chaos you get Roboute Guilliman aura [this is flatly OP and will keep chaos off top tables in 6 game GTs]

Played a 2000 point game last weekend. Lists were:

IRON WARRIORS
Daemon Prince, wings, warptime
warpsmith
foot lord
raptor lord
6 raptors, 2 plas, sgt combi-plas
5 marines, lascannon
5 havocs, 2 lascannon
5 havocs, 2 lascannon
5 havocs, 2 lascannon
5 havocs, 4 heavy bolters
~10-12 cultists
~10-12 cultists
3 obliterators
3 obliterators
dreadnought with 2x lascannon and missile
forgefiend with hades autocannons and plasma maw
maulerfiend with tendrils

vs

MARS
Cawl 250
Enginseer 52
5 Rangers 40
5 Rangers 40
5 Rangers 40
6 robots 660
Neutron onager 140
Neutron onager 140

Elysian commander 40
Elysian commander 40
Elysian command squad 56
Elysian command squad 56
Elysian SWS 51
Elysian SWS 51
Eversor 70

Cadian commander, warlord, regain a CP you spend on a 5+, gain 1 CP on a 5+ when enemy uses stratagem 30
Cadian Earthshaker battery 80
Cadian Earthshaker battery 80
Cadian Earthshaker battery 80



Iron Warriors finished deploying first, I failed to seize, Iron Warriors went first, they killed a couple robots and got first blood from some Rangers. Warptime failed to cast leaving the Maulerfiend in the open to get killed the next turn by robots and Neutrons. Mechanicus shooting turn 1.5 destroyed a large amount of the Iron Warriors army, deep striking Elysians prevented Obliterators and Raptors from having good places to enter. The Iron Warriors player forgot to deep strike half of his Obliterators and all his Raptors turn 1, which hurt him.

After starting to lose the shooting war, Iron Warriors were still ahead 3-0 or 3-1 on victory points as it was Maelstrom of war, so they backed up away from the stationary robots. Objective cards were more in my favor near the end of the game and I ended up getting a couple points to bring me back in line with the Chaos player's points, at which point he was stuck with bad cards and not enough objectives controlled to get more from the mission. Chaos conceded turn 3.

That is a savage list ph34r. How would you rate the cadian heavy artillery battery in terms of damage output? Relative to the ONagers?

Alright, did anyone gave a chance to an Agripinaa army with a fair share of Kataphrons ? Because I notice a good way to play them would be with their relic, the Eye of Laxum, which allows the bearer to designate an enemy vehicle within 18" so that your whole Forge-World can reroll 1s to Wound in the shooting phase, an reroll all failed to Wound if it's a Chaos vehicle. It pairs well with Destroyers, but even better with Breachers with heavy Arc rifles. Suddenly against Chaos all your Arc weaponry becomes a lot more interesting, less so against another faction, but my meta has its fair share of Chaos players. How many times did I roll a one or two with my Neutron Laser ? I'm heavily considering this.

It's hard to trade the protection of the Stygies VIII dogma for the bonus in CC and plasma-madness (Plasmadness ?) of Ryza or the Kataphron-friendly stratagem of Agripinaa though, but I think if I want to play a more agressive playstyle I'll have to make amends. I used to win games before the codex too after all.

One unit of 6 Destroyers looks dangerous to me, either for my opponent or for me. It's hard to get it all in cover and Morale might start to be an issue (losing a 70 pts model in Morale hurts), but that would save me some CPs for sure. I thought about two units of three at maximum for a bit of safety, but I'll think about it after I try out the Destroyers a few times.

Destroyers arent worth it, Kastellans serve the same role and do it better.

Kataphrons are in a bad place right now, too expensive and too fragile

Wulfey wrote:
That is a savage list ph34r. How would you rate the cadian heavy artillery battery in terms of damage output? Relative to the ONagers?

Onagers have much much more reliable damage, what with 3+ to hit reroll with Cawl, vs the Earthshakers having only 4+ to hit rerolling 1s.
-4 AP instead of -2, d6 damage minimum 3 instead of d3.

Then again Earthshakers are 80 and Onagers cost a full 75% more at 140.
The Earthshakers were good, maybe not necessary to have 3. Basically I used them at the end of each turn to kill things I was hoping my other units would kill, which they had failed to manage. They are unreliable themselves, but by using 3 of them they managed to fix SOMETHING each turn. Might go down to 2 in the future.

Having Indirect Fire is no joke though. Robots are powerful but super stationary. When the Iron Warriors backed up away from 36", the only things I had to get me back in the game from being down 2 victory points were my Earthshakers and Elysians. Earthshakers can reach things that are bubble-wrapped off and safe from Deep Strike.

here's a question how does the regaining CP thing work? if you have both? do you roll independently? can you potentially get back two for one?

gendoikari87 wrote:
here's a question how does the regaining CP thing work? if you have both? do you roll independently? can you potentially get back two for one?

One only works on yourself using a stratagem, one only works on your enemy using a stratagem. There is no overlap possible.

That said, I found that warlord trait and relic to be extremely useful. I gained back 4 or 5 command points maybe.

 ph34r wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
here's a question how does the regaining CP thing work? if you have both? do you roll independently? can you potentially get back two for one?

One only works on yourself using a stratagem, one only works on your enemy using a stratagem. There is no overlap possible.

That said, I found that warlord trait and relic to be extremely useful. I gained back 4 or 5 command points maybe.

my codex reads you or your opponent. and i don't remember it being in the faq.

Once per battle, you can re-roll a single hit roll, wound roll or damage roll made for your Warlord. In addition, if your army is Battle-forged and your Warlord is on the battlefield, roll a D6 each time you or your opponent use a Stratagem; on a 6, you gain a Command Point

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Just because of how bad the repair artifact is, I'm still leaning to the OmniMask. It's like cawl in Fight phase... Kinda :p

Also seriously, I really feel that Autocaduceus is terrible. I mean, it's just 0-2 wounds per game. Like, how's that an "autotake"
Technomartyr gives you 1 hit every 36 overwatch attacks. That is also terrible.

For me the choice is:
OmniMask
Solar Flare(but you have to take Lucius)
Xi-Lexum(but you have to take Agripinaa)
Techno-Mitre(but you have to take Graia)

Leaving me with only 1 choice pretty much.

There is something to be said about: Anzion's bonus D6 attacks and the Ryza weapon. But meh...

I would imagine Raiment is the second choice, actually. As for weapons, Pseudogenetor is the only one that seems to be decent, mostly because it's free additional attacks.

Mask is okay (given it's practically reroll 1s), but in a competitive list, you will want your HQs near your shooting units to repair, not out in the field with the screen.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Once per battle, you can re-roll a single hit roll, wound roll or damage roll made for your Warlord. In addition, if your army is Battle-forged and your Warlord is on the battlefield, roll a D6 each time you or your opponent use a Stratagem; on a 6, you gain a Command Point

My bad, I was using pre-release rules summaries. I must have got it wrong.

EDIT: No, I was right?

Yeah.

You roll a die for every CP you spend.
You roll one die for every time your opponent uses a Strategem (no matter how many CP).

 ph34r wrote:

MARS
Cawl 250
Enginseer 52
5 Rangers 40
5 Rangers 40
5 Rangers 40
6 robots 660
Neutron onager 140
Neutron onager 140

Elysian commander 40
Elysian commander 40
Elysian command squad 56
Elysian command squad 56
Elysian SWS 51
Elysian SWS 51
Eversor 70

Cadian commander, warlord, regain a CP you spend on a 5+, gain 1 CP on a 5+ when enemy uses stratagem 30
Cadian Earthshaker battery 80
Cadian Earthshaker battery 80
Cadian Earthshaker battery 80

Jesus... Absolutely Savage list man. I swear, I might build this. Though I might skip the Eversor for some Conscripts and a Commissar maybe.

Elysian sniper teams don't need a commisar and are 3.5 points per wound. They are 3 5 point 'models' that each have 2 wounds and 1 sniper rifle a piece. Contrast what you get:

60 points of conscripts:
20 wounds at LD4, hits on 5+, order problems

63 points of Elysian snipers:
18 wounds only fails morale if 2 bases die and you roll a 6, hits on a 3+, has a sniper rifle, always gets orders, and they are 3 different deep striking units so harder to tie them all up and easier to overkill, but more vulnerable to autocannons

I am currently painting up this list. I just can't figure out how to proxy those damn Cadian Earthshakers. I keep looking at my knight battlecannons like there has to be a way. And I am not totally sold on the arquebuses, but if I am already this deep into sniper rifles (18), might as well make it so character in LOS are well and truly dead.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Anyone else struggling to find a build they like or is it just me?

Also, anyone notice the big point jump for Scions? Clever, GW. Nearly doubling the cost of Plasma guns for them.

Yeah I'm having that issue as well. I just never really feel satisfied with what I put together.

Scions, and indeed all BS3+ models got a bit of a price hike. Though I think the costs are fair for what you are still getting.

Wulfey wrote:
I am currently painting up this list. I just can't figure out how to proxy those damn Cadian Earthshakers.

If you want to build some "ph34r pattern earthshakers", the recipie and result is as follows:

Dunecrawler Legs $9.00:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/362123803924

Dunecrawler Abdomen $2.50:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/352170024894

Quantum Gothic Quantum Cannon $22.00:
http://www.quantumgothicwars.com/tabletop-gaming-scenery/quantum-cannon

130mm round base $7.50:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/263210127263

Total cost: $41.00

Result:



Build the Dunecrawler legs like normal, and then cut off the entirety of the hemisphere on top so you have a flat surface.
I like to then also cut just the claw part off of each foot and reposition them so they are more splayed out to the side, instead of vertical like a walking Crawler.

I also used magnets to let the cannon move around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Jesus... Absolutely Savage list man. I swear, I might build this. Though I might skip the Eversor for some Conscripts and a Commissar maybe.

Thanks man. And because I can't resist showing off my conversion (painting is WIP) here is my 3 armed, Adeptus Mechanicus Assassin. Inspired somewhat by this image of,

Korial Zeth, Dark Mechanicus Assassin from the Horus Hersey:

And my conversion:

Suzuteo wrote:

I would imagine Raiment is the second choice, actually. As for weapons, Pseudogenetor is the only one that seems to be decent, mostly because it's free additional attacks.

Mask is okay (given it's practically reroll 1s), but in a competitive list, you will want your HQs near your shooting units to repair, not out in the field with the screen.

But dude. It is ONE HIT(still need to wound, etc) every 36 overwatch shots. How is that any good? Like, at all.

And we usually have 3-4 repair HQs. When will you ever have 3-4 different damaged vehicles at the same time? Never, if your opponent is competant. He knows if he starts on something, he has to kill it due to the repair mechanic. Sure, 2 could be damaged at the same time - one artilery and one screen piece(Dragoon). But 3? Very very rarelly. And why re-roll 1s? We hit on 3+. We're not popping the +hit stratagem every time we fight.

Yeah, I get your point.

I am actually beginning to like this idea of a Guard Warlord with Kurov's Aquila and Grand Strategist trait; the rest of the army can be AdMech in Outrider and Spearhead detachments. What's the cheapest option for CP recycling?