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Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






gendoikari87 wrote:
Jesus Christ just ran the numbers on the vanquisher and demolisher vs neutronagers

Vs t7 3+

Demolisher 22points per wound per turn.
Vanquisher 28 points per wound per turn
Neutronager 39 points per wound per turn

This is with the leman russ tanks kitted out with plasma cannons and a hull lascannon


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also .... leman russ punishers are now better at kastelans job than kastelans and twice as tough

Nobody runs the tanks with Plasma Cannon sponsons really; Vostroyans are the only viable option for Plasma + Plasma sponsons (and even then, moving is risky). Tallarn runs them with Heavy Bolters because they don't like exploding. Everyone else runs Catachan or Cadian with barebones main turrets.

Anyhow, here are some points per damage against T3 W1 5+/T4 W1 3+/T4 W2 2+ 5++/T7 3+/T7 3+ 4++/T8 3+/T8 3+ 4++ profiles:

Catachan Battle Cannon + Heavy Bolter (reroll volume)
37.03/56.62/41.81/40.22/52.55/52.55/68.21

Tallarn Punisher + 3x Heavy Bolter (no penalty for moving)
15.45/29.61/54.64/59.22/59.22/59.22/59.22

Cadian Executioner Plasma + 2x Plasma + 1x Heavy Bolter (this is just for fun; it's too risky even with rerolls)
23.38/29.32/19.65/19.91/32.34/26.21/42.22

Vostroyan Executioner Plasma + 2x Plasma + 1x Heavy Bolter (42" range, 1CP to avoid overheating)
35.08/43.99/29.48/29.87/48.51/39.31/63.33

Crawlers (all get Martian reroll):

Martian Neutron + 2x Heavy Stubber
37.65/61.21/79.85/25.76/46.61/27.19/51.51

Martian Icarus + Heavy Stubber
vs. Ground: 19.24/38.27/57.87/36.26/43.87/49.82/61.06
vs. Air: 15.43/30.41/35.74/28.49/34.61/38.92/47.86

Martian Dakkastelan (with Protector)
8.25/15.47/27.50/30.93/41.24/30.93/41.24

Take-aways:
-Barebones Battle Cannon is the best option for killing transports and a strong all-rounder
-Plasma is scary strong, but also risky
-Neutron is very specialized against tanks, but is beat against T7 and below
-Icarus is the better all-rounder and is especially good against air (especially Magnus and the like)
-Heavy Stubber is undercosted now and outperforms Heavy Bolters against everything but T8+
-Dakkastelans are still better than all of the Punisher variants

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/24 02:15:56


 
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block





China

where is the best place to send questions to find out how Litany of the Electromancer really works, was this ever solved?
   
Made in us
Cog in the Machine






I know conscripts aren't really the new fad since the new FAQ but I did some math to see overall what's better vs Light Infantry, Dakka Pask or Dakka Bots (using the conscript durability and cost as a baseline)

Dakka Pask
- Punisher cannon, fired twice for not moving
- Rerolling hit rolls of 1
- 3 Heavy Bolters
- Heavy Stubber

Dakka bot
- Triple Heavy Phosphor, at normal BS for not moving
- Double Shoot Stance
- Cawl nearby for reroll hits

Results:




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 takonite wrote:
where is the best place to send questions to find out how Litany of the Electromancer really works, was this ever solved?


Nope, they dumped a gakky errata on us that answered a question no one was asking and didn't update anything they wrote. Pray to the Machine God we get answers in Chapter Approved, or we may never get any answers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/24 03:15:10


 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 takonite wrote:
where is the best place to send questions to find out how Litany of the Electromancer really works, was this ever solved?

It seems clear to me. At the start of a round, pick every unit affected by this Canticle. Pick every enemy unit within 1" of those picked units. Roll a D6 for each of them. On a 6, deal D3 mortal wounds.
   
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Reece ruled that Litany takes place at the top of the battle round in ITC. So RIP Litany. It was horrendous anyways.
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






I don't think it's the timing as much as it's the fact that it deals practically no damage.

I would have gone for:

For each affected unit, roll a D6 for each enemy unit that is within 1"; on a roll of 6, the unit being rolled for suffers D3 mortal wounds.

The difference being that every unit procs once for every nearby enemy unit. So if three units are locked in CC with Magnus, you roll 3 times for him instead of only once.
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block





China

Wulfey wrote:
Reece ruled that Litany takes place at the top of the battle round in ITC. So RIP Litany. It was horrendous anyways.


Too bad, I'd still like to see an official ruling as the codex still states "At the start of each battle round, pick which Canticle of the Omnissiah from the table below is in effect for the duration of the battle round. The same Canticle may not be picked twice during the same battle."

This strangely makes Litany the only one of the six Canticles that does not have an ongoing effect

Litany would have been far better off as a strategem

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/24 04:53:40


 
   
Made in us
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Yes. Ideally, it would give everything a reflect ability like the ones Kastelans have. Or it would give us a bonus to Overwatch of some sort.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 takonite wrote:

This strangely makes Litany the only one of the six Canticles that does not have an ongoing effect
this is the weird part and it makes me think it will get a favorable FAQ some day.

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Dakka Veteran




 LexOdin9 wrote:
I know conscripts aren't really the new fad since the new FAQ but I did some math to see overall what's better vs Light Infantry, Dakka Pask or Dakka Bots (using the conscript durability and cost as a baseline)

Dakka Pask
- Punisher cannon, fired twice for not moving
- Rerolling hit rolls of 1
- 3 Heavy Bolters
- Heavy Stubber

Dakka bot
- Triple Heavy Phosphor, at normal BS for not moving
- Double Shoot Stance
- Cawl nearby for reroll hits

Results:




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 takonite wrote:
where is the best place to send questions to find out how Litany of the Electromancer really works, was this ever solved?


Nope, they dumped a gakky errata on us that answered a question no one was asking and didn't update anything they wrote. Pray to the Machine God we get answers in Chapter Approved, or we may never get any answers.

I am sorry but a comparison between a character of which you can only ever take one and a unit that is required to take at least 2 models is just...well it shows that mathhammer isnt always the answer.
   
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 LexOdin9 wrote:
 Tsol wrote:
Hey guys, remember to send GW messages about Admech being over costed and we need our powerfists and tech preiats reduced to fit in line with the other codexs. Go to Warhammer community and let them know that are servitors dominus and so forth are all over costed as they do read that stuff. But remember be polite!!


How do I go about doing that?


For all those curious: load up facebook and goto warhammer 40000 group/page here is a link for those too lazy to type it in the search bar https://www.facebook.com/Warhammer-40000-1575682476085719/ and post on their wall about your grievances. Though I must must must plea and beg, to please be polite, their community is not in charge of the rules writing but they do talk to them!

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Iago40k wrote:
 LexOdin9 wrote:
I know conscripts aren't really the new fad since the new FAQ but I did some math to see overall what's better vs Light Infantry, Dakka Pask or Dakka Bots (using the conscript durability and cost as a baseline)

Dakka Pask
- Punisher cannon, fired twice for not moving
- Rerolling hit rolls of 1
- 3 Heavy Bolters
- Heavy Stubber

Dakka bot
- Triple Heavy Phosphor, at normal BS for not moving
- Double Shoot Stance
- Cawl nearby for reroll hits

Results:




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 takonite wrote:
where is the best place to send questions to find out how Litany of the Electromancer really works, was this ever solved?


Nope, they dumped a gakky errata on us that answered a question no one was asking and didn't update anything they wrote. Pray to the Machine God we get answers in Chapter Approved, or we may never get any answers.

I am sorry but a comparison between a character of which you can only ever take one and a unit that is required to take at least 2 models is just...well it shows that mathhammer isnt always the answer.


Math is the answer to everything! To say otherwise is to refuse the glory of the Omnissiah!

Joking aside, I could easily do a comparison dakkabot to catachan tank commander or cadian tank commander. I feel too lazy right now.

 
   
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Dakka Veteran




 LexOdin9 wrote:

Math is the answer to everything! To say otherwise is to refuse the glory of the Omnissiah!

Joking aside, I could easily do a comparison dakkabot to catachan tank commander or cadian tank commander. I feel too lazy right now.

Well I am sure you can. I am also sure that the numbers will not be as impressive as in the example with Pask. Thanks anyways for the numbers.
   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

Personnally I use the Electromancer canticle like this: get the canticle, now every time an Adeptus Mechanicus units gets within 1" of an enemy unit, this unit suffers the effect on a 6. The thing is I believe you can use it all round, so when you get charged during his turn, you have a chance to shock them. When you get piled-in by enemy models, you get to shock them. Same thing when it's my turn, let's say I charge with my Vanguards, I roll it once, then I pile-in into a different unit after wiping out the precedent, I roll it a second time. The thing to remember being that a single enemy unit can't be affected by the shock more than once.

I'm playing it like this at my store and noone finds this unreasonable. It's still a very low probability to do actual wounds but at least the threat is constant, and sometimes you get surprising results like my Fulgurites finishing off Typhus in CC.

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Made in gr
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Greece

Litany once when your turn starts . It's bad must be fixed and yes it should be at least an electro power whenever an enemy comes to 1" of us to get a roll. It should but gw has long forgotten ad mech
. Since all those shouts I was giving on official sites was stopped from all those players you admire and love the pros that spammed reviews praising the great value this codex gave it's pointless. No faq proper for this crap codex nothing new nothing revamped. Still your favorite players praised it since they got it for free! Etc etc won't say it again.
I m used to in my life to demand value. I don't accept trash sorry. I only play ad mech with units I have and leaked codex. Won't give money for no value I play better other armies . Ig is fun from list building to competitive play. Even if fires of c released ad mech won't be an army still. When they decide to make this a proper army I'll talk more. Saying same crap all the time won't change the trash codex. Can't build lists don't have hq no melee units no variations no even a second aura . Ig enginseers cost 42 pathetic. If you played two games with new codex you have seen how bad ad mech perform.

Simply put even if you spamming 2*6 Robots you need ig screen warlord trait and relic. Cause you can't even make proper lists with solo ad mech. Only tax tax tax everything is tax can't work heal each other and dogmas don't give that much either way. My pre codex list was better . No mortals from wrath but was better. No unplayable

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/24 08:32:58


 
   
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






Kastelans are still better than Punisher LRs and TCs. Even if they are more important in terms of points, 50% more range and the ability to dump mortal wounds are important considerations.
   
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Suzuteo wrote:
Kastelans are still better than Punisher LRs and TCs. Even if they are more important in terms of points, 50% more range and the ability to dump mortal wounds are important considerations.
that's a half decent point but punisher LR's just put out so much dakka and they're 12 wounds on a T8 model.

011000100111010101110100001000000110100 100100000011101000110010101101100011011 000010000001111001011011110111010100100 000011101110110010100100000011101110110 010101110010011001010010000001100111011 011110110010001110011001000000110111101 101110011000110110010100100000011000010 110111001100100001000000111011101100101 001000000111001101101000011000010110110 001101100001000000110001001100101001000 000110011101101111011001000111001100100 000011000010110011101100001011010010110 1110  
   
Made in us
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Here is a comparison of points per wound against T3 W1 5+/T4 W1 3+/T4 W2 2+ 5++/T7 3+/T7 3+ 4++/T8 3+/T8 3+ 4++ (or GEQ/MEQ/TEQ/Razorback/Magnus/Baneblade/Imperial Knight)


Tallarn Punisher + 3x Heavy Bolter
15.45/29.61/54.64/59.22/59.22/59.22/59.22

Cadian Punisher + Heavy Bolter
10.97/11.36/41.74/43.15/43.15/43.15/43.15

Dakkastelans with Protector and Cawl reroll
8.25/15.4727.50/30.93/41.24/30.93/41.24

As you can see, even with Cadian rerolls, Kastelans do better. Most people are going to run these guys Tallarn if they don't have character support though. Lots of dakka on that build, and it's mobile enough to get in range.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/24 09:51:00


 
   
Made in us
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why on gods green earth are you only putting one HB on the cadian punisher. also i ran these numbers yesterday and i think you're off. the punisher + 3 HB's should be doing way more damage against infantry.

are you only shooting the punisher once or twice?

oh that's why they were different you ran GEQ i ran them against Guard and orks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/24 10:34:48


011000100111010101110100001000000110100 100100000011101000110010101101100011011 000010000001111001011011110111010100100 000011101110110010100100000011101110110 010101110010011001010010000001100111011 011110110010001110011001000000110111101 101110011000110110010100100000011000010 110111001100100001000000111011101100101 001000000111001101101000011000010110110 001101100001000000110001001100101001000 000110011101101111011001000111001100100 000011000010110011101100001011010010110 1110  
   
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Dakka Veteran




well I got the math after reading everything twice.....nvm

I dont see way Dakkastelans are compared to punisher cannons at all...why do you guys think LRs are so great? I just cant see it

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/24 10:44:36


 
   
Made in ie
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Suzuteo wrote:


Nobody runs the tanks with Plasma Cannon sponsons really;


I do.


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Sim-Life wrote:
Suzuteo wrote:


Nobody runs the tanks with Plasma Cannon sponsons really;


I do.
IMO you'd be a fool not to until the faq puts emergency plasma vents back up to 6 mortal wounds. currently it's 1. and cadians re roll 1s..... plasma in 8th is a thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should note that's for anti tank roles not ant infantry. Anti infantry still take the hb


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Without factoring rerolls or strategem a (because those have their own costs)

GEQ/meq/teq/t73+/t83+

Punisher with 3x hb

14.6/27.9/51.55/55.88/55.88

Plasmacutioner with lascannon and pc sponsons
38.6/46/28.3/27.2/34.2

Battle cannon with plasma sponsons and lascannon
35.9/49/31.1/28.8/36.7

Neutronager
126/126/75/40/40

Kastelans
14.7/27.5/36.6/55/55


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heat maps show per point:

GEQ: punisher and kastelans tied
MEQ: punisher and kastelans tied for first
TEQ: plasmacutioner a clear winner with battle cannon second
T7 with 3+: plasmacutioner with battle cannon a close second
T8 with 3+: plasmacutioner with battle cannon a close second

Again this is all with only the units on their own merits not factoring abilities from other units


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So the kastelans weren't as bad as originally assessed but those neutronagers are showing signs of aging. Need to run this on land raiders. Neutronager probably shines there

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/10/24 13:42:08


011000100111010101110100001000000110100 100100000011101000110010101101100011011 000010000001111001011011110111010100100 000011101110110010100100000011101110110 010101110010011001010010000001100111011 011110110010001110011001000000110111101 101110011000110110010100100000011000010 110111001100100001000000111011101100101 001000000111001101101000011000010110110 001101100001000000110001001100101001000 000110011101101111011001000111001100100 000011000010110011101100001011010010110 1110  
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench





What are these numbers again? points per wound? So many unquantified numbers it's getting confusing understanding what we're actually measuring lol

All i see in my mind comparing these is:
Both the plasma and battle cannon variants of the russ you list are 190 and 192 points each. Neutronager with 2 heavy stubbers is 145. If those russ didn't out perform it at something they would be severely gimped.

Imagine what we could do with 2d3 neutron shots lol I mean for every 3 russ and neutronagers we get an entire neutronager for free. How do 4 neutronagers compare to 3 of the russes? You almost have to reduce the comparative effectiveness of the russ by 1/3 to account for the extra points you're spending.

Presume kastellans in this example is for 2 of the robots btw? I dont recall anyone specifically saying, especially considering 2 robots is almost comparable to a single one of those russ variants points-wise.

---

Also if someone could just clarify the GEQ, MEQ and TEQ terms for me? I mean my assumption has been that GEQ is essentially a guardsman/eldar guardian/ork, MEQ is a standard marine and TEQ is heavy infantry like terminators and wraithguard but the terms have never made any sense when i've tried to figure out what they stand for lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also i just realised in looking at those points costs the eradication beamer and twin heavy phosphor are even worse options if you compare points. 30 points each!? all those russ options are all 20 or less bar one. scandalous lol

My guard friend would be parroting, ah but those weapons are mounted on a bs3+ tank instead of a bs4+ tank. To me, doesn't make the gun any better! lol

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/24 15:30:20


 
   
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Points per wound inflicted i.e. Unit cost divided by wounds inflicted.

GEQ: t3 5+
Meq: t4 3+
Teq: t4 2+

They literally mean guard equivalent marine equivalent and so on

011000100111010101110100001000000110100 100100000011101000110010101101100011011 000010000001111001011011110111010100100 000011101110110010100100000011101110110 010101110010011001010010000001100111011 011110110010001110011001000000110111101 101110011000110110010100100000011000010 110111001100100001000000111011101100101 001000000111001101101000011000010110110 001101100001000000110001001100101001000 000110011101101111011001000111001100100 000011000010110011101100001011010010110 1110  
   
Made in gb
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gendoikari87 wrote:
Points per wound inflicted i.e. Unit cost divided by wounds inflicted.

GEQ: t3 5+
Meq: t4 3+
Teq: t4 2+

They literally mean guard equivalent marine equivalent and so on


Thanks! Not quite as straight forward as I thought.
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




What are these comparisons trying to show if points cost per model arent factored in? Or survivability? Buff units (no one plays dakkastelans without cawl)? This is fun and all but shows very little because the comparison is within a vacuum and would very seldom take effect in a game like this.
   
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I believe the points per model are being factored in.

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gendoikari87 wrote:
why on gods green earth are you only putting one HB on the cadian punisher. also i ran these numbers yesterday and i think you're off. the punisher + 3 HB's should be doing way more damage against infantry.

are you only shooting the punisher once or twice?

oh that's why they were different you ran GEQ i ran them against Guard and orks.

Honestly, I only showed the Cadian Punisher as a reference for rerolls. You normally would not run it because Punishers have 24" range, and Cadians are rewarded for not moving.

Cadian Punisher + 3x Heavy Bolter
10.30/11.29/36.42/39.48/39.48/39.48/39.48

Iago40k wrote:
well I got the math after reading everything twice.....nvm

I dont see way Dakkastelans are compared to punisher cannons at all...why do you guys think LRs are so great? I just cant see it

I think the barebones Battle Cannon builds are great. (Good all-around damage, range, and durability.) Plasma is also great if you can tolerate the risk; you should always supercharge except against GEQs.

Then again, this was before they FAQed the Earthshakers to be -3 AP. Now those are seriously OP.

gendoikari87 wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
Suzuteo wrote:


Nobody runs the tanks with Plasma Cannon sponsons really;


I do.
IMO you'd be a fool not to until the faq puts emergency plasma vents back up to 6 mortal wounds. currently it's 1. and cadians re roll 1s..... plasma in 8th is a thing.

Again, I only put Cadians up to test reroll ones. If you were to run a non-Vostroyan Plasma Exec, you would run Catachan. And if you were to do that, Flamers might be a better option for the sponsons.

The problem is that tanks have BS4+, and when they move, they get -1 to hit. Cadians only get to reroll ones, but only when you don't move, so you will have a mobility problem. It might work on Tallarn, but then you'd want Heavy Bolters. Honestly, best choice is Catachans with reroll orders/aura; this way you take the damage, but at least get to reroll shot volume.

If you move and shoot without a reroll, it's 33% chance to hit, 33% to miss, and 33% to get hot. That's 3.67 mortal wounds a turn. Like getting hit by a Twin Lascannon. With rerolling 1s, you get 38.89% chance to hit, 38.89% to miss, 22.22% chance to get hot.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/24 18:41:44


 
   
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Your assuming a lot of moving. Plasma has a 36" range same as kastelans and no body is crying over them gluing themselves to the board

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/24 19:37:57


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gendoikari87 wrote:
Your assuming a lot of moving. Plasma has a 36" range same as kastelans and no body is crying over them gluing themselves to the board


This is a good assumption at a tournament. Tactics don't matter in a match where all your enemies models are in range and in clear line of sight. The games where you have ot struggle for LOS are the games that count.

EDIT: on all this talk about leman russes. I am not convinced they are better than onagers. Guard has some access to rerolls to hit, but not that many. And Russ's don't have invul saves so they will draw -4 fire like crazy. Assuming 4s rerolling 1s you are looking at 58% chance to hit against a -0 target, and like 38% chance to hit a target with -1 to hit. That is some sad stuff. Assuming they shoot twice they only barely manage to keep up with an onager. And the Onager is a lot more mobile and has better repair options and invul saves. The only Russ that really does damage in its points range is the Plasma one on overcharge. It competes with the damage output of a comparably pointed Hellblaster squad in rapid fire range or the much cheaper plasmacide squad in deep strike rapid fire range. But again, 3+ with no invul sucks. And the damage profile on these things are super hard to mitigate without admech + to hit and ignore table strategems. I would take a 6 stack of onagers and Cawl over a 5 stack of leman russes + Pask any day of the week. If you deployed right then the russes wouldn't be able to all shoot without losing their double shoot.

Even further, they still haven't fixed the 'reroll ANY' language on Cawl. That makes neutronagers accurate against -1 to be hit models in a way that no other list can be accurate. Not seeing all the leman russ love.

Also, I was at socal open. The leman russ spam lists got peed on. People just shot them from afar or tied them up in combat. If you want to run tanks, run a baneblade.
EDIT2: even then, a baneblade with a few lascannons is like 500 points. That is as much as a knight. It shoots better than the knight and with a strategem it can fight kinda okay, but it has no invul save. So every lascannon shot at your baneblade will only be saved in a 6+.

EDIT3: I think there is a dark horse unit combo in the admech codex. Now that I have 4 dragoon models, I am thinking about the possibilities of a Stygies 4 lascannon ballistari unit. Hear me out. The +2 to hit strategem is seriously good on a big units of walkers. +2 to hit on 8 lascannons is no joke and ballistari are 50 point platforms for lascannons, and points spent on lascannons (45) are never wasted. This unit will draw mad fire from your opponent, but it has the bonus that it can move and shoot when you use the strategem. It won't provide the mortal wound generation of the wrath of mars robots, but man will it remove pesky transports with ease. I wanted my dragoons to do serious work, but the proliferation of mega tau overwatch, autohitting super flamers from plagecrawls, lord of skulls godtier overwatch, and ynnari double-move charges made them semi-useless in 5 of 6 games. Sure, they absorbed fire, but ballistari could absorb comparable fire at reduced point efficiency. On top of this the 4 stack of ballistari could full BS overwatch with a strategm, which is hilarious. Talk about a lame screen to charge.

EDIT4: I think I found my next tournament list. And I can conveniently make it out of the models I already have with a little conversion.

8CP, 2000 points, 5+/5+ CP recycling

CAWL Spearhead
Cawl + 5x dakkabots + 2x1 neutronagers + 1x4 lassBallistari

CADIAN Battalion
Company commander with 5+/5+ CP recycling
2x1 primaris psyker + 1x astropath
3x1 guardsmen with mortar

CADIAN spearhead
Primaris psyker
3x1 earthshaker battery

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/10/24 20:33:59


 
   
 
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