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That's a separate rule. Putting MT, Astropaths, Enginseers, etc. into a Guard detachment won't cause the Guard to lose their doctrines, but they themselves do not benefit from their own doctrines, dogmas, etc.

What I am talking about is making a detachment composed of regular Guard units, giving them a custom regiment, then taking the MT doctrine as that custom regiment's doctrine.

Suzuteo wrote:
That's a separate rule. Putting MT, Astropaths, Enginseers, etc. into a Guard detachment won't cause the Guard to lose their doctrines, but they themselves do not benefit from their own doctrines, dogmas, etc.

What I am talking about is making a detachment composed of regular Guard units, giving them a custom regiment, then taking the MT doctrine as that custom regiment's doctrine.

can you do that? i mean i'd still take catachan over MT but still.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
That's a separate rule. Putting MT, Astropaths, Enginseers, etc. into a Guard detachment won't cause the Guard to lose their doctrines, but they themselves do not benefit from their own doctrines, dogmas, etc.

What I am talking about is making a detachment composed of regular Guard units, giving them a custom regiment, then taking the MT doctrine as that custom regiment's doctrine.

can you do that? i mean i'd still take catachan over MT but still.

I have not read conclusive proof that you can take the MT doctrine for your home brew, though I could believe it.

The strength of Catachan is partially the extra dice on vehicles, but also partially having Sergeant Harker for a standard reroll 1 to hit bubble. I think Militarum Tempestus doctrine might be weaker than that, but I have not done the exact math.

It's on P132 of the Guard codex:
"If your chosen regiment does not have an associated Regimental Doctrine, you may pick the doctrine that you feel that best represents your army. For example, as your army of Vostroyan Nobles does not have an associated Regimental Doctrine, you can decide that the Vostroyan: Heirloom Weapons doctrine best suits these wealthy and well-equipped fighters."

Note how in the example there is a custom regiment that takes a doctrine, but not the keyword; I bolded for emphasis. There is no rule against taking the MT doctrine ("Storm Troopers") as your own. There is a rule taking the KEYWORD "Militarum Tempestus" as your regiment though.

Even if Earthshaker Battery were a vehicle (which it is not), it already rolls two dice and discards one for shot volume. Therefore, it does not benefit from the Catatchan doctrine as much because you would be rerolling the lower dice and having to exceed the other dice.

In terms of the pure math, MT is very simple to calculate. Every 6 you roll increases your shot volume by 1. So it's a 16.67% damage increase for anything 50% range and below. Which is 120" for Earthshakers... (Anything that exceeds 87" can hit anything on the table.)

Suzuteo wrote:
Even if Earthshaker Battery were a vehicle (which it is not), it already rolls two dice and discards one for shot volume. Therefore, it does not benefit from the Catatchan doctrine as much because you would be rerolling the lower dice and having to exceed the other dice.

I'm basically choosing to ignore the fact that the Earthshaker Battery doesn't have the Vehicle keyword. Seems like a typical Forgeworld incompetence mistake.

So, i had a match over the weekend with my friend's dark eldar army; 1500 points roughly.

The odds were stacked against me, mission was contact lost and 5 of the objective markers were his side of the board. So needless to say i lost on points turn 5 with half my army still intact and most of his destroyed.

What I'm really struggling to cope with is the FLY keyword, to me it seems absurdly underpointed. A flying unit can move where ever the hell it likes, land where it likes, fallback and shoot in any direction. For what seems like no additional points.

What it boiled down to is he had:



Every single unit moves at least 16 inches, the flyers up to 72. So no matter how I deployed there was no stopping them getting wherever they wanted to go. Numerous times he would land a venom behind a ruin and charge through it immune to overwatch.

Everything he had was deployed out of sight, they can all move and fire at no penalty, not that it mattered because he went first.

So I mean I didn't struggle to deal damage and take stuff out, when i could see it and my stuff wasn't tied in combat, but I couldnt get anywhere near his objectives without just ignoring everything.

I ran:




essentially this was my entire collection, just to make up points.

He dropped his warriors on backfield objectives out of LOS and then flew the venoms forward shooting and harassing. This is the first time i'd used dragoons and balistarii, both performed great, less so with the las balistarii because everything he has has an invulnerable save. Either way i could have done with more dragoons I think as he got some lucky shots and rolled 6 for dmg on 2 of them, otherwise i could have done a lot more with them.

Has anyone any advice for going against DE? His other army is Tyranids and foresee similar issues there lol

As you know, your army was held back by being your entire collection just to make points. If you grew your army or played 1250 or 1000 points you would do better.

What was your Forge World Dogma?

The Adeptus Mechanicus book is sadly bad in a lot of ways. The most obvious cuts I would make would be the rust stalkers, data smith, and to take the vanguard units down to cheaper sizes to take more artillery.

Dakka bots, dragoons, ballistarii, onagers, are all good.

 ph34r wrote:
As you know, your army was held back by being your entire collection just to make points. If you grew your army or played 1250 or 1000 points you would do better.

What was your Forge World Dogma?

The Adeptus Mechanicus book is sadly bad in a lot of ways. The most obvious cuts I would make would be the rust stalkers, data smith, and to take the vanguard units down to cheaper sizes to take more artillery.

Dakka bots, dragoons, ballistarii, onagers, are all good.

I took Stygies as my forgeworld, raiment of the technomartyr and monitor malevolous for my relic and warlord trait.

Thing is by turn 5 he only had his archon, 1 raider, the haemonculous and 1 squad of 5 warriors way in the backfield left. Thats it. All were hidden behind buildings.

I had both robots and datasmith, both onagers, 2 balistarii, the entire squad of 7 vanguard with arquebus, 1 of the arc rifle vanguard and my non-warlord dominus. Only one of the balistarii had taken damage, everything else was full wounds.

I really didn't struggle that much to kill stuff and to stay alive, what i couldnt do was manage any kind of battlefield control. his mobility just meant i was always reacting to what he did and didn't have the options myself to force any kind of reaction from him. I can imagine id end up with a similar issue against Eldar and/or harlequins.
And FLY meant there was literally no way i could corner anything to prevent him from running amok.

Mechanicus has big problems with mobility, and as you say, getting to stuff hiding on the other side of the board.

I use allies to fix this weakness. Elysians specifically are great.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/31/codex-tyranids-preview-hive-fleet-adaptations-oct-31gw-homepage-post-2/

More bad/disappointing news for mechanicus

gendoikari87 wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/31/codex-tyranids-preview-hive-fleet-adaptations-oct-31gw-homepage-post-2/

More bad/disappointing news for mechanicus

Explain? I mean i dont profess to know a whole lot about Tyranids, but most of those traits are pretty generic.

The worst offender from our point of view is the always in cover trait. So we get a random chance to get cover, they just get it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ph34r wrote:
Mechanicus has big problems with mobility, and as you say, getting to stuff hiding on the other side of the board.

I use allies to fix this weakness. Elysians specifically are great.

So essentially to stay mechanicus i'm looking at infiltrators, risky-stygia-infiltrate units on first turn or lucius teleport a unit? I kinda thought that might be the case but secretly hoped someone had some super-secret strategy for dealing with highly mobile armies lol

Yeah pretty much every single one of those traits for tyrranids is decent. Re rolling charges, especially the advance one....

@Octovol
Drop the Ruststalkers and second Dominus. Pick up another Crawler and an Enginseer.

To counter Fly, don't bother trying to pin him in CC or anything like that. I just castle up and shoot.

@gendoikari87
The cover one is insanely good. Really hurts a lot of anti-horde weaponry, which typically has zero or low AP. Fortunately, ours ignores cover.

gendoikari87 wrote:
Yeah pretty much every single one of those traits for tyrranids is decent. Re rolling charges, especially the advance one....

More than that, every single one of them could plausibly be used in a focused purpose detachment. Take the cover one for the exocrines in a spearhead. Take the swarmy reroll to hit one in your troops battalion. Take the advance and fall back and charge one in your 3 hive tyrant group.

A couple of them are just strictly better versions of the ones we got

Wulfey wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Yeah pretty much every single one of those traits for tyrranids is decent. Re rolling charges, especially the advance one....

More than that, every single one of them could plausibly be used in a focused purpose detachment. Take the cover one for the exocrines in a spearhead. Take the swarmy reroll to hit one in your troops battalion. Take the advance and fall back and charge one in your 3 hive tyrant group.

Flyrants are going to be terrifying. Fall back, shoot, charge. T_T

Octovol wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ph34r wrote:
Mechanicus has big problems with mobility, and as you say, getting to stuff hiding on the other side of the board.

I use allies to fix this weakness. Elysians specifically are great.

So essentially to stay mechanicus i'm looking at infiltrators, risky-stygia-infiltrate units on first turn or lucius teleport a unit? I kinda thought that might be the case but secretly hoped someone had some super-secret strategy for dealing with highly mobile armies lol

If you want pure mechanicus, then your best mobility units are Stygies VIII Dragoons, the lucius teleport/stygies infiltrate, Sicilian Infiltrators, and... it's not a very long list.

 ph34r wrote:

Octovol wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ph34r wrote:
Mechanicus has big problems with mobility, and as you say, getting to stuff hiding on the other side of the board.

I use allies to fix this weakness. Elysians specifically are great.

So essentially to stay mechanicus i'm looking at infiltrators, risky-stygia-infiltrate units on first turn or lucius teleport a unit? I kinda thought that might be the case but secretly hoped someone had some super-secret strategy for dealing with highly mobile armies lol

If you want pure mechanicus, then your best mobility units are Stygies VIII Dragoons, the lucius teleport/stygies infiltrate, Sicilian Infiltrators, and... it's not a very long list.

Good catch on previous page on ESBatteries not being VEHICLES. I reread the 'born soldier's thing from AM Codex. It says reroll 1s if you didn't move in the previous movement phase. But the first turn always has a previous movement phase! It happened during your turn. This means the CATACHAN dream is dead. Just run CADIA, always, if you run ESBatteries. You always get the rerolling 1s and you can't even get the CATACHAN bonus for ESBatteries under RAW.

I am definitely staying Catachan. The vehicle keyword thing is, to me, an obvious typo.

Assuming you guys are only running a Company Commander and Earthshakers, the MT doctrine is the way to go. If you want to unfurl any flags, Cadia.

Concerning the Vehicle keyword, I asked Warhammer Community, and they said they'd pass this along to the FAQ team.

 ph34r wrote:

Octovol wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ph34r wrote:
Mechanicus has big problems with mobility, and as you say, getting to stuff hiding on the other side of the board.

I use allies to fix this weakness. Elysians specifically are great.

So essentially to stay mechanicus i'm looking at infiltrators, risky-stygia-infiltrate units on first turn or lucius teleport a unit? I kinda thought that might be the case but secretly hoped someone had some super-secret strategy for dealing with highly mobile armies lol

If you want pure mechanicus, then your best is to wait for fires of cyraxus.

FIFY

Rule #2 is STAY ON TOPIC.

RULE #1 is, of course, BE POLITE.

Hey guys, thought you might enjoy my latest painted models, as well as a current WIP of my Ogryns Destroyers, that will count-as Kataphron Destroyers in my future games. I'll finally get to try them for the first time this Friday against Tyranids (friendly game). C&C welcome of course.

Fulgurite Electro-Priests


Sicarian Ruststalkers


Onager Dunecrawler 1, Neutron Laser


WIP, conversion of Ogryns to count as Kataphron Destroyers

Looks good Aaranis, very bold color scheme. The kataphrogryn look fine to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gendoikari87 wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

If you want pure mechanicus, then your best is to wait for fires of cyraxus.

FIFY

I think we all know that book is a myth

 ph34r wrote:
Looks good Aaranis, very bold color scheme. The kataphrogryn look fine to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gendoikari87 wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

If you want pure mechanicus, then your best is to wait for fires of cyraxus.

FIFY

I think we all know that book is a myth

Confirmed for 2018 per Tony Cottrell. Still don't think it will solve our faction's problems unless they give us cheap chaff Thralls and better strategems and a new FW trait that is worth taking so we can break up the Mars/Stygies monopoly.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Looks good Aaranis, very bold color scheme. The kataphrogryn look fine to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gendoikari87 wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

If you want pure mechanicus, then your best is to wait for fires of cyraxus.

FIFY

I think we all know that book is a myth

Confirmed for 2018 per Tony Cottrell. Still don't think it will solve our faction's problems unless they give us cheap chaff Thralls and better strategems and a new FW trait that is worth taking so we can break up the Mars/Stygies monopoly.

ill just be glad to use thallax cohorts good or not. Also the big robot with the mega beam cannon can't remember it's name. They'll be fun if not competitive. Myrmidons will be the big icing on the cake for me. That said if no date is set by march I'm selling my mechanicus and going guard....might still sell everything if it is but for the big bots

gendoikari87 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Looks good Aaranis, very bold color scheme. The kataphrogryn look fine to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gendoikari87 wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

If you want pure mechanicus, then your best is to wait for fires of cyraxus.

FIFY

I think we all know that book is a myth

Confirmed for 2018 per Tony Cottrell. Still don't think it will solve our faction's problems unless they give us cheap chaff Thralls and better strategems and a new FW trait that is worth taking so we can break up the Mars/Stygies monopoly.

ill just be glad to use thallax cohorts good or not. Also the big robot with the mega beam cannon can't remember it's name. They'll be fun if not competitive. Myrmidons will be the big icing on the cake for me. That said if no date is set by march I'm selling my mechanicus and going guard....might still sell everything if it is but for the big bots

Hey Gendoikari, do you like Myrmidons by chance?

And also, I feel you. I wanted to sell my Metalica army, but am going to wait for Fires too. Plus, I doubt I would get a good value on my investment (in models and painting). With AdMech being so distinctly an afterthought army though - and a profoundly boring one to play at that - I am segueing over to Eldar right now and looking to the Heresy for more options.

lol, why yes i do like myrmidons, how can you tell? Yeah it was reading about the myrmidons in Inquisitor that got me into the mechanicus... or maybe it was dark heresy... can't remember. Anyway i just thought that secutors were the coolest thing ever. They're techpriests which is cool because the omnissiah bless it's name, is the greatest thing in 40k, but they're warrior tech priests, tech priests that focus their study on warfare. they're basically sohei in the mechanicus warrior monks of knowledge and intellect, how cool is that?

So here's a question - me and my friends are enjoying the ITC rules, but what's the consensus on squad size when playing the missions? You probably don't want to max out without a Data Tether, but also you don't want to give easy points by snuffing out 5 man squads...

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
So here's a question - me and my friends are enjoying the ITC rules, but what's the consensus on squad size when playing the missions? You probably don't want to max out without a Data Tether, but also you don't want to give easy points by snuffing out 5 man squads...

You'll probably hear to take min squad no upgrades, and spend all points on robots and robots and robots.
I personally think that sounds boring and love the vanguard models and their weapons are great, so I'm using squads of 8 including 2 plasmas. This way they can't be completely ignored. It looks like a nice midground. Still cheap, but not useless forcing the opponent to make choices.
They do have the problem of mobility still though.