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em_en_oh_pee wrote: Watching this Tactica slowly morph into just a Guard offshoot.
It is like "What is the least AdMech I can take to allow me to take the two good unit entries from the 'Dex?"
By the end of the last thread we had a pretty good handle on what the good units were.
Cawl is worth his points PhosphorRobots are worth their points Dragoons are worth their points Neutron/Icarus are worth their points
Enginseers / Rangers are less-than-competitive tax units that are okay if run as STYGIES
The rest of the codex should only be taken strictly for fluff reasons. EDIT: I do think certain entries are at least debatable, like Destroyers/Ballistari. But they only work if you get first turn (Destroyers) or don't expect first turn charges (Ballistari). If we could make a brigade that didn't have like 400 points of tax units ... sure I could see solo admech working. The only other admechy list out there that i could see working that people aren't running right now are certain 3xEnginseer / 3x Knight lists that really work the Questor Mechanicus strategems and the ability to repair 4 wounds a turn on a knight.
EDIT: if you go back to the WARCON days, we were always a soup army. Pure admech has always point for point sucked and people have brought in various flavors of imperium to supplement them. I regard admech as a part of a broader imperium and have always like the idea of using imperial agents along with my admech. I thought that imperial index 2 was awesome. If power levels stayed at the index power levels I would have run soups from that book forever.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/03 20:16:38
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Watching this Tactica slowly morph into just a Guard offshoot.
It is like "What is the least AdMech I can take to allow me to take the two good unit entries from the 'Dex?"
Yeah, well.... >_>
<_<
What can we say? The Mechanicus list, aside from our Few Good Units, sucks. Unless GW gets really wild with the Chapter Approved at the end of this year, we will probably remain stagnant for quite some time.
I had a game Wednesday and took a time lapse of it. 2000p Iron Warriors vs Adeptus Mechanicus, victory to the Mechanicus after a tied game points-wise for the first 3 turns.
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
Loose guard doctrine I might not care much since I usually get Celestine inside greyfax etc. But the most important rule of d mech is shroudps and if you go second you vehicles need it so pick it first turn. Pick it.
As for the list building. I posted so you can see the option. Guard can use only one battalion if you take 2 heavys. And TBH two earthshkers do the job hitting los. Then you get a spearhead cause Mars reroll everything and you need at least Robots and an icarus or two full rerolling. After all Cawl works best for bs 4+ and don't forget reroll all hits.
Then it's a matter of preferrance. Stygies -2 dragoon and 2 balistarii provide the best . And that's why I insist on taking one more onager in the place of a robot or an earthshaker. Best option vs best points. Neutronager is still 10 -4 3-6 damage. You must not skip it. When you default need high hitting str weapon passing armor and doing at least min damage high enough to kill . Spend a cp etc. All got a role.
So to cut this short. 2 earthshkers
2 astropths
4 Dragoons
4 Robots
2 balistarii
2 neutron
1 icarus I can place them use them vs anything. With out wasting shots effectiveness or points. With enough screener los hitting defence and offence . You can decide to walk the Dragoons but with -2 to hit while walking. You can decide to make astropaths both mortal spams or defensive. And you can definitely use your infantry and onagers agreesive Cawl as well.
Wulfey I love Celestine but she is so alone in front that I have never played a game she didn't die. And I don't say she is not superb. She just need more support. Maybe a more flexible list some priests or as I see it working a catachan with harker priests etc list. So you know you go with flamers etc etc eventually and you can jump her maybe round two bla bla.
That's my list I know 4 robots. Might be. Little low but I can guarantee if you place your army properly enemies have a hard time playing vs you and deciding targets. So far my list tabling round one or two(concede might be the proper word)? We see how it goes but I LL say it once. If I play first with my onager able to move 8+ 48.
I LL send 4d6 keeping best rerolling ones for shakers 2-3d3 for onagers 4*lasc for balistarii and got spare dragoons. Charge stubbers troops and Robots if I need. Haven't need them till round two so I'm usually move my robot turn one wasting shots to go to position. Nothing has survived yet against it. Nothing. 1 cp inf Dragoons even 3 work to finish things of. 1 cp for +2 hit . Round two 2 cp wrath and again 1-2 cp for hitting.two rounds pure hitting . Pick rerolling ones in melee or shooting if you go first the other round two and aim for shroud on Mar gg. Astropaths + cadian ensures guard follow up ad mech hooting and defence almost the same. Good luck all lists valid accoridng to players preference.
I know bigger units can work better the cpand gems but if my enemy has 8+ cp and I got 8 to start I find 5+/5+ enough cp to play all my options. Best list so far I'm taking this the grand tour. Just w8ing the ruleset.
Here's a theorycraft for the Robots + Crawl argument..
4 Kastellans + Crawl is pretty much the same price as 5 Kastellans + Dominus.
The additional firepower from the 5th robot essentially cancels out the better re-roll from Crawl (54 vs 52.2); and having the firepower spread out over 5 Robots vs 4 means that your firebase will be much more resilient to the attention it will no doubt receive.
Plus, if you value survivability over damage - you can go Stygies for a -1 to hit them, greatly increasing their survivability, AND saving the 2 CP each volley to spent elsewhere, like say Dragoons.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/11/03 20:46:47
4 Kastellans + Crawl is pretty much the same price as 5 Kastellans + Dominus.
The additional firepower from the 5th robot essentially cancels out the better re-roll from Crawl (54 vs 52.2); and having the firepower spread out over 5 Robots vs 4 means that your firebase will be much more resilient to the attention it will no doubt receive.
Plus, if you value survivability over damage - you can go Stygies for a -1 to hit them, greatly increasing their survivability, AND saving the 2 CP each volley to spent elsewhere, like say Dragoons.
I've thought about this a little bit and it's an interesting option.
Main problem I have with it is:
-without Cawl and Mars, we will rarely get our free Shroudpsalm cover
-Cawl is a good close combat unit, not always important, but he can punch out enemy leaders
-Wrath of Mars, while being expensive, is really really good. Like, I'd say it doubles the damage output of the unit, I don't have the math in front of me, but against harder targets that is what it feels like
-Against enemies with -1 to be hit, Cawl's re-rolls become even more valuable vs the Dominus
Upsides:
-minus one to be hit is awesome
-5 wounds worth of Robots rather than 4
-not spending CP on Wrath of Mars
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
The reason for Cawl being the dominant choice is that full rerolls to hit (with no blank rolls due to modifiers because Cawl just says ANY without any"failed" in the rules) is that robots are base 4+ to hit. Reroll 1s is actually half as good as Cawl on a 3+ to hit unit and if you ran some kind of mass Onager list I could actually see dipping down from Cawl and running STYGIES. But in a meta with -1 modifiers all over the place, Cawl is simply indispensable on robots. 5+ rerolling to hit due to Cawl is 55%. 5+ rerolling 1s is like 37%.
EDIT: if I actually had 6 Onagers I would seriously consider running STYGIES. But I only have 3 Onagers and 6 Robots. I am biased towards the models I have that are painted.
EDIT2: in later turns, I repeatedly was able to get useful 2x canticles for my dragoons. The +1 str and rerolling 1s in combat is a super beefy combo on the dragoons.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/03 20:56:55
Has anyone tried nothing but bots and onagers since the dex dropped.? in 2000 you can fit 12 bots in units of six taking agrapinaa that's a metric crapton of T7 wounds to get through with shooting. before the dex super bot heavy might have been a bad idea but with agrapinaa not much is going to be able to charge 4-5 bots which turns the whole game into a shooting match. and who wins the shooting match.?... well as long as the other guy isn't guard.
Wulfey wrote: The reason for Cawl being the dominant choice is that full rerolls to hit (with no blank rolls due to modifiers because Cawl just says ANY without any"failed" in the rules) is that robots are base 4+ to hit. Reroll 1s is actually half as good as Cawl on a 3+ to hit unit and if you ran some kind of mass Onager list I could actually see dipping down from Cawl and running STYGIES. But in a meta with -1 modifiers all over the place, Cawl is simply indispensable on robots. 5+ rerolling to hit due to Cawl is 55%. 5+ rerolling 1s is like 37%.
EDIT: if I actually had 6 Onagers I would seriously consider running STYGIES. But I only have 3 Onagers and 6 Robots. I am biased towards the models I have that are painted.
EDIT2: in later turns, I repeatedly was able to get useful 2x canticles for my dragoons. The +1 str and rerolling 1s in combat is a super beefy combo on the dragoons.
I feel that you need the Mars reroll for Icarus Crawlers. They just don't perform very well without it. Neutron Crawlers do well in Stygies, since they are tasked with trading with vehicles whose best weapon is typically a Lascannon. Most of a Neutron Crawler's variability actually comes from shot volume anyway; they have high strength and AP, consistent 3+ BS, and min 3 damage, so rerolling 1s is fine.
I've tried the Icarus crawler a couple times, and been generally disappointed with it. Now that Eldar are a big thing though, they might become worthwhile. It does suck though that a Wave Serpent will reduce the autocannon component of the gun from damage 2 to 1.
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
They still deal comparable damage when compared to Neutron Crawlers. Really, the only things I would prefer to have Neutrons for are super-heavies like Knights and Baneblades. And Leman Russes, which can also be handled by Dragoons.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Watching this Tactica slowly morph into just a Guard offshoot.
It is like "What is the least AdMech I can take to allow me to take the two good unit entries from the 'Dex?"
Yep, since about page 3 it's been all Guard tactics. It's garbage. But that's the tournament scene for you, it eventually boils down to everyone spamming whatever is currently considered the one "best" unit with no tactics and declaring anything other than that one unit "useless." And if anything gets balanced they decry "the army is dead!" why I avoid try hards.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/05 16:21:49
The issue is the codex didn't fix anything. GK is almost as bad as we are, but not as worse off because at least if their Warlord dies the army isn't neutered.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Watching this Tactica slowly morph into just a Guard offshoot.
It is like "What is the least AdMech I can take to allow me to take the two good unit entries from the 'Dex?"
Yep, since about page 3 it's been all Guard tactics. It's garbage. But that's the tournament scene for you, it eventually boils down to everyone spamming whatever is currently considered the one "best" unit with no tactics and declaring anything other than that one unit "useless." And if anything gets balanced they decry "the army is dead!" why I avoid try hards.
Most of the lists here are still 2/3s AdMech. People are simply splicing Guard in to optimize their lists because Guard is good at things that AdMech is bad at and vice versa. Specifically, troops, an OPCP recycling trait and relic, psykers, and indirect artillery from Guard and direct artillery and skirmishers from AdMech.
I actually think the hybrid lists are way more complicated and less spammy than AdMech.
Played my 1500 pts list the other day against Tyranids and it was a borderline tabling for him, but he will be better next time now that he knows what is menacing in my army. I'm really satisfied of the Kataphrogryns so far, they've proven to be a reliable source of destruction over these two games. I think people will know to shoot them from now on, however. News flash: Sicarian Infiltrators with Flechette blasters are still the number one T3 hordes eradicator unit. Killed 20 Gaunts in one volley + morale loss (no synapse. However this may surprise you but charging a Carnifex with a Dominus and his 6 Vanguards doesn't end well for the Priest and his retinue
Zalek wrote: How has everyones experience with Transuranic arquebus rangers been?
They look good on paper and there are lots of characters in my play group but I didn't manage to figure out the right number.
Mine haven't done much damage at all really as they seem to be a bad dice magnet, but their perceived threat does seem to be quite good at forcing things to try and avoid them. Not sure if the cost is worth the distraction they cause though.
Zalek wrote: How has everyones experience with Transuranic arquebus rangers been?
They look good on paper and there are lots of characters in my play group but I didn't manage to figure out the right number.
Mine haven't done much damage at all really as they seem to be a bad dice magnet, but their perceived threat does seem to be quite good at forcing things to try and avoid them. Not sure if the cost is worth the distraction they cause though.
They are very nice in what they do but they are overpriced for the number you need to reliably snipe characters
Tried the 5 eatthshakers against the Alaitoc Scorpion II this weekend, any fewer than 5 and there is definitely no way I could have killed it. Barely got it down end of turn 3 shooting literally my entire everything at it.
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
ph34r wrote: Tried the 5 eatthshakers against the Alaitoc Scorpion II this weekend, any fewer than 5 and there is definitely no way I could have killed it. Barely got it down end of turn 3 shooting literally my entire everything at it.
Were you running any Crawlers? This is another case where Icarus shines, as it has a distinct advantage against flying with an invulnerable save. (Neutron is 52.49 points per wound against a Scorpion; Icarus is 45.39 points.)
Anyhow, stuff like this is why I actually think having one cheapo Knight Crusader might be competitive if the meta shifts aggressively towards hordes. We can repair one for 4 wounds per turn and give it a perpetual 4++, meaning if we can shut down the enemy's anti-tank, it will essentially wreak havoc forever. (However, a Knight Warden might be preferred against other Knights and such.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/06 08:42:01
I was running 2-3 icarus so far. From 7th till now.
Icarus gives a better hit and ad mech has gems and Cawl to help hit. Icarus -1-2 AP shots have a 1-3 damage average success. While neutron -4 pass through any number of units. A failed save vs a neutron and I usually shoot chars as well means 3-6 min damage. Yes I have now 2neutron 1 icarus cause of earths and balistarii -10 points and a way to spend less cp. If you need more dakka on fliers etc neutron will deliver if you need more heavy shooting str 7 icarus won't. And atm if I really need something dead I'd prefer to wrath of mars a model that icarus.
The fact that icarus must shoot all weapons at one Target. The fact that -2 AP is str 6 and that the 2 damage shots are -1 AP does not make icarus par with neutron. It's different it's still one of the best ant air but it's not the superb choise. 2-3 neutronagers then 1 icarus. Or if you got enough antitank two icarus. Don't take solo onagers .
Imperium fluff is all about soup. And atm is not
Possible for all armies to have all options! Ad mech is a fairly new army. We miss a lot of utility. If you just wanna make a list saying you wanna play solo ad mech try 1500. As we grow in points other armies will get all options in table and you can't. Wanna have fun sure I'm with you but you miss so many aspects of the tactis to face effectively all armies. Either you make list custom vs every enemy or you decide you LL go with handicap.
Ad mech and guard does not guarantee a win. You just gonna have less handicap. Does not mean it became complete.
Snipers I love them but. Points are limited. Atm i struggle to keep them. I still got 97 points 5 man 2 snipers omnispex in my list.
Not sure they can perform like when I have two groups but so far all games one group dies fast. So I end up with one. Stygies to get them a -1 and usually guarding my back sides from deep strikes. 30 range shoot in my front lines vs hordes snipers ensure tactical disadvantage for my opponents. Rolled 2 x6 last game killed a guard priest and a commisar in tow rounds then forced his commander to stay hidden LL game.
So I was working on a guard list and noticed just how similar the skitarii are to the scions. Point and stat wise extremely similar. Both can take twin plasma per 5 man squad t3 bs 3+ with 4+..... but they get transports and deepstrike.... also flamers.... and they look more mechanicus than guard too
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/06 14:25:45
Yeah. Love using Skitarii as Guard and Scions. The natural division between Vanguard and Ranger helps if you run both (or Guard and Veterans). I also got some Secutarii.
Suzuteo wrote: Yeah. Love using Skitarii as Guard and Scions. The natural division between Vanguard and Ranger helps if you run both (or Guard and Veterans). I also got some Secutarii.
ph34r wrote: Tried the 5 eatthshakers against the Alaitoc Scorpion II this weekend, any fewer than 5 and there is definitely no way I could have killed it. Barely got it down end of turn 3 shooting literally my entire everything at it.
Were you running any Crawlers? This is another case where Icarus shines, as it has a distinct advantage against flying with an invulnerable save. (Neutron is 52.49 points per wound against a Scorpion; Icarus is 45.39 points.)
2 Neutron Crawlers, one was lucky to live through turn 1, spent a lot of CP getting them to not have awful hit chances due to crippling and Alaitoc trait. Worth it though.
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
ph34r wrote: Tried the 5 eatthshakers against the Alaitoc Scorpion II this weekend, any fewer than 5 and there is definitely no way I could have killed it. Barely got it down end of turn 3 shooting literally my entire everything at it.
Were you running any Crawlers? This is another case where Icarus shines, as it has a distinct advantage against flying with an invulnerable save. (Neutron is 52.49 points per wound against a Scorpion; Icarus is 45.39 points.)
2 Neutron Crawlers, one was lucky to live through turn 1, spent a lot of CP getting them to not have awful hit chances due to crippling and Alaitoc trait. Worth it though.
For the ignorant, what is the crippling? Alaitoc trait is basically Eldar Stygies?
Also, what's the consensus on Destroyers for Stygies? Interesting 2CP paring with Robots for both to have +1 to hit for both - with a Dominus basically swapping out the devastating firepower of Mars Mortal Wounds for something more survivable, and cheaper.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/11/06 20:21:30
Suzuteo wrote: Yeah. Love using Skitarii as Guard and Scions. The natural division between Vanguard and Ranger helps if you run both (or Guard and Veterans). I also got some Secutarii.
I do need to make some dedicated officers though.
you can use tech priests for that or data smiths
Not sure if Omnissian Axes could pass for Bolters and Chainswords. =\
ph34r wrote: Tried the 5 eatthshakers against the Alaitoc Scorpion II this weekend, any fewer than 5 and there is definitely no way I could have killed it. Barely got it down end of turn 3 shooting literally my entire everything at it.
Were you running any Crawlers? This is another case where Icarus shines, as it has a distinct advantage against flying with an invulnerable save. (Neutron is 52.49 points per wound against a Scorpion; Icarus is 45.39 points.)
2 Neutron Crawlers, one was lucky to live through turn 1, spent a lot of CP getting them to not have awful hit chances due to crippling and Alaitoc trait. Worth it though.
For the ignorant, what is the crippling? Alaitoc trait is basically Eldar Stygies?
Also, what's the consensus on Destroyers for Stygies? Interesting 2CP paring with Robots for both to have +1 to hit for both - with a Dominus basically swapping out the devastating firepower of Mars Mortal Wounds for something more survivable, and cheaper.
He means lost stats due to the damage table.
Not sure if it is cheaper... but I can run the numbers tonight on that. It's not unlike running Grav Destroyers with Bunkers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/06 20:56:52
