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Oh i'm one step ahead of you arm them with power swords (the omnissian axe) and mount thebolter on the shoulder. like a predators gun. the tech priest 2 even has a perfect place to do it where the light thingy is

I think I have my Game Empire tournament list set up for this weekend in Pasadena. Let me know what you guys think.

MARS Spearhead
Cawl + 5xDakkabots + 2xNeutron + 1xIcarus + 1x4Dragoons

IMPERIUM Vanguard
Celestine/Geminae + 3x1 Astropaths [all maelstrom]

CADIAN Spearhead
Company Commander (5+/5+) + 3x1 ESBattery

I think this list should play faster than my previous list since it has less unit variety. I have a lot less screen (no conscripts), but I am planning on just using the batteries and the dragoons as anti melee or anti deepstrike screens. I can't deepstrike the dragoons so their offense isn't that great, but I am imagining them as more defense. When they made it across the board they tended to die, but I could see them as great units for receiving a charge. Recent changes to ITC should make Celestine less costly to play ... but even if they don't go through I really value Celestine's distraction and character killing power. This list is 2000 points on the nose.

EDIT: my thinking is, if I didn't have celestine I could either have (1) some troops (guards or rangers) and 2 more CP, (2) some deep striking elysians. (1) I feel like the troops are at best a screen, but are otherwise not going to do any damage. (2) Elysians have serious weaknesses in ITC and versus good players. Good players will space their good stuff so you can't deepstrike within 12", and the turn after you good deepstrike turn, all the Elysians die and your opponent pulls ahead on the score tally. Celestine keeps being a pain in the ass all game against most lists. She is kind of junk against the 400-500 point lord of war nonsense some people bring, but I think the way to run her against those things is simply to go take objectives and kill the weak units away from the lords of war. The (1) troops are just fodder for lords of war. The (2) Elysians can sometimes ace a lord of war, but are feed if you roll badly or if someone puts mortarian behind 4" of screening units or gets off the -1 to hit power. EDIT2: also, every tournament where i have won more games than I lost ... I had celestine. I don't think it is a coincidence.

EDIT3: what is really eating the conscript points is that Icarus Dunecrawler. I really wanted it to be a neutron but that last 10 points is killer. Overall I expect the dunecrawler to do better than the 30 conscripts + Commisar. They were kinda cool at wasting game time and delaying deepstrikes. They would really help against deepstriking swarmlords ... hmmm.

Looks like a solid list, be sure to let us know how the Mars Dragoons fare.

Wulfey wrote:
I think I have my Game Empire tournament list set up for this weekend in Pasadena. Let me know what you guys think.

MARS Spearhead
Cawl + 5xDakkabots + 2xNeutron + 1xIcarus + 1x4Dragoons

IMPERIUM Vanguard
Celestine/Geminae + 3x1 Astropaths [all maelstrom]

CADIAN Spearhead
Company Commander (5+/5+) + 3x1 ESBattery

I think this list should play faster than my previous list since it has less unit variety. I have a lot less screen (no conscripts), but I am planning on just using the batteries and the dragoons as anti melee or anti deepstrike screens. I can't deepstrike the dragoons so their offense isn't that great, but I am imagining them as more defense. When they made it across the board they tended to die, but I could see them as great units for receiving a charge. Recent changes to ITC should make Celestine less costly to play ... but even if they don't go through I really value Celestine's distraction and character killing power. This list is 2000 points on the nose.

EDIT: my thinking is, if I didn't have celestine I could either have (1) some troops (guards or rangers) and 2 more CP, (2) some deep striking elysians. (1) I feel like the troops are at best a screen, but are otherwise not going to do any damage. (2) Elysians have serious weaknesses in ITC and versus good players. Good players will space their good stuff so you can't deepstrike within 12", and the turn after you good deepstrike turn, all the Elysians die and your opponent pulls ahead on the score tally. Celestine keeps being a pain in the ass all game against most lists. She is kind of junk against the 400-500 point lord of war nonsense some people bring, but I think the way to run her against those things is simply to go take objectives and kill the weak units away from the lords of war. The (1) troops are just fodder for lords of war. The (2) Elysians can sometimes ace a lord of war, but are feed if you roll badly or if someone puts mortarian behind 4" of screening units or gets off the -1 to hit power. EDIT2: also, every tournament where i have won more games than I lost ... I had celestine. I don't think it is a coincidence.

EDIT3: what is really eating the conscript points is that Icarus Dunecrawler. I really wanted it to be a neutron but that last 10 points is killer. Overall I expect the dunecrawler to do better than the 30 conscripts + Commisar. They were kinda cool at wasting game time and delaying deepstrikes. They would really help against deepstriking swarmlords ... hmmm.

Sorry but. I don't like the list for new missions. Going second will hurt you a lot. And we mitigate that with stygies. If was looking for mortals I would take staff priests not so many Astropaths. And you have crippled the list. Can't win vs mobile armies can't win vs horde armies can't win vs heavy melee alpha.

Guard first rank second rank provide battalion +3 cp troops screener etc. Won't waste cp for a spearhead guard.
Earthshkers are good not best they provide los shooting not best shooting. Cadian reroll ones fits better and two of them with two neutronagers work fine.
Celestine cost 200 points and a detachment. I prefer stygies outrider for balistarii 2* lasc and screener for my robots and 48 range next to them. While 270+ cost of 4 infiltrating Dragoons worth every single point -2 to hit is just incredible and sure better then Celestine. 1 cp buff amazing. Tar pit screener distraction shooting magnet you name it. Moving 10.

And I also use snipers . Killing a liutenant denied my enemy rerolling all wounds. That can't be said with points. Same for Dragoons. Troops cost 40 die for the rest to live and provide antihorde. We played with 5 neutron pre codex it's nice but won't win. Same goes for this list. Its extremely stationary. Celestine won't do the warlord kill. Dragoons might with dice numbers. -2 to hit Dragoons -1 to hit balistarii and my snipers 30 guard troops you just can't shoot nothing effectively even with deep strike even when you play second.

Your list going second is dead. And that's the deal. What harassment you LL provide so my enemy has to decide not to shoot my Robots. There is nothing better than Robots with wrath of mars in game atm. So the rest of my army need to to serious issues. Snipers do guard troops do. Earthaker do onager do Dragoons do balistarii do. You just can't deal with it. Celestine and astropaths don't worth the limited detachments. Atm. Spearhead guard not as good as Cawl onagers . Guard best troops some support ad mech leading. And if you continue to rely on guard and Celestine so much you LL struggle soon.

And yes Celestine is broken it's just not worth to sacrifice a detachment for her and 3 astropaths as I see the meta. Heavy tank elite or heavy horde. In between is weak so far.
You going on a tour . Stygies can give an option if you want to infiltrate .if. but with out it you won't be able to go anywhere . In corner you LL stay. Vs deep strike vs inf vs mobile vs melee vs every single enemy you LL have to stay back so you won't loose shooting. A smart cyber wolf will tie your robots for two rounds and gg 15 points. My Dragoons will tie your shooting for 2 rounds even. An assassin will for two rounds. There is no hope with zero deep strike and so low screener. Is one thing to decide to keep dragons behind cause enemy heavy melee another to run them up the field .

My thinking on going second is that if I am going admech, I can't actually mitigate my opponent deciding to shoot my robots. My list as written is supposed to give other targets for my opponent to distract from the robots. Here is what my opponent can shoot if he gets first turn:

ESBatteries, 3x80 points T7/7W/4+
Dragoons, ~260 points T6/6W/3+/6++ -1 to hit
Crawlers, 140 points T7/11W/2+/5++
Robots, 550 points T7/6W/2+/4++

What else could i possibly put on the board that would draw more fire from the robots? The idea is to give my opponent nothing but tanky targets with the robots being the tankiest. I could actually see dropping the icarus and running 20 conscripts as a suicide screen that only lasts 1 turn and adding an eversor in place of the third astropath. For instance, I could turn the Icarus 130 points and 1 astropath into:

10x1 guardsmen to space out deepstrikers
Elysian commander with plasma pistol
Elysia, commands squad with 3 plasma, 1 melta

This screens a little better that the icarus since I don't care if the guardsmen get meleed. And the deepstrikers might do as much damage on 1 turn what the icarus does in 2 turns. But is this really better? The guards and elysians have frustrating rules and slow the game down. The Icarus has a huge base which hardcore baseblocks something that wants to get my robots. EDIT: also, the icarus screens fast, high model count units in a way that conscripts would only end up being a bonus movement and consolidation. Guants, space marines, eldars, all those T3-4 melee units have a harder time than they should taking down T7, 3+/5++

What I do accept from your argument is that more dragoons would be better. If the icarus was turned into 2 more dragoons, my screen would be better. But that is another 100$ and a solid 10 hours of hobby work.

EDIT2: alright, I just got a big clarification from Pablo at ITC about celestine + geminae. Cel+Gem is guaranteed 2 max secondaries (headhunter + kingslayer) and gives up a 'kill' when she goes down with no geminae and gets back up on 2+. This means that if I bring her, I have to play to table my opponent. She throws all close games in ITC due to secondaries. grrrr . Now I have to rethink Celestine ...

Drop her and go for Elysians?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Drop her and go for Elysians?

I have had a bad time with Elysians in ITC. I think they let you stomp opponents you would otherwise beat but throw the game versus a properly screened and -1 to hitted competitive army. But I also think the FLG/ITC guys really don't want me using Celestine + Geminae. She carried me through some games, but maybe pure dakka is just the way to go. If I was going to run Elysians, it would look like this. But Elysians did me bad last time I tried them.

MARS Spearhead
Cawl (I put him in front of robots, better to melee) + 3x1 Neutrons (surround robot flanks) + 1x5 Robots + 1x4 Dragoons (pure screen, not offense, babysits robots all game)

ELYSIAN vanguard
2x ElyCommanders with plasma pistols + 2x ElyPlasmaCom teams with 4x plasma, + 2x Astropaths (for denies)

CADIAN Spearhead
1x Commander (5/5) + 3x1 ESBattery (spaced 15" around robots to block deepstrike)

Hmmm ... yeah ... this list ... seems very good. 3BGH points on hard targets, I am giving up 2x easy headhunter with the Elysians but that is less than Celestine, and I risk losing "kill more" cause the Elysians, but my Kingslayer is only Cawl and he is only dies on a tabling. And I get 6 easy 'drops' during deployment before I have to start putting things down that matter.

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
Cheaper as in Dominus vs Crawl

I mean that Cawl plus Kastelans may be cheaper in terms of points per wounds against most targets than an equivalent number of points of Dominus, Kastelans, and Destroyers, especially with Wrath of Mars being so terrifyingly good against stuff like Daemon Primarchs.

Wulfey wrote:
My thinking on going second is that if I am going admech, I can't actually mitigate my opponent deciding to shoot my robots. My list as written is supposed to give other targets for my opponent to distract from the robots. Here is what my opponent can shoot if he gets first turn:

ESBatteries, 3x80 points T7/7W/4+
Dragoons, ~260 points T6/6W/3+/6++ -1 to hit
Crawlers, 140 points T7/11W/2+/5++
Robots, 550 points T7/6W/2+/4++

What else could i possibly put on the board that would draw more fire from the robots? The idea is to give my opponent nothing but tanky targets with the robots being the tankiest. I could actually see dropping the icarus and running 20 conscripts as a suicide screen that only lasts 1 turn and adding an eversor in place of the third astropath. For instance, I could turn the Icarus 130 points and 1 astropath into:

10x1 guardsmen to space out deepstrikers
Elysian commander with plasma pistol
Elysia, commands squad with 3 plasma, 1 melta

This screens a little better that the icarus since I don't care if the guardsmen get meleed. And the deepstrikers might do as much damage on 1 turn what the icarus does in 2 turns. But is this really better? The guards and elysians have frustrating rules and slow the game down. The Icarus has a huge base which hardcore baseblocks something that wants to get my robots. EDIT: also, the icarus screens fast, high model count units in a way that conscripts would only end up being a bonus movement and consolidation. Guants, space marines, eldars, all those T3-4 melee units have a harder time than they should taking down T7, 3+/5++

What I do accept from your argument is that more dragoons would be better. If the icarus was turned into 2 more dragoons, my screen would be better. But that is another 100$ and a solid 10 hours of hobby work.

EDIT2: alright, I just got a big clarification from Pablo at ITC about celestine + geminae. Cel+Gem is guaranteed 2 max secondaries (headhunter + kingslayer) and gives up a 'kill' when she goes down with no geminae and gets back up on 2+. This means that if I bring her, I have to play to table my opponent. She throws all close games in ITC due to secondaries. grrrr . Now I have to rethink Celestine ...

You can't stop people from CHOOSING to shoot the Kastelans. However, you can actually stop them from being able to do so on turn one if you go second by deploying them last and behind cover. You can also use Dragoons to tie up enemy shooting.

Most battles are decided in deployment and the first three turns, which is why I think these lists are not as good as your previous ones. You need to focus on minimizing your opponent's options rather than crafting the perfect defensive scenario, which you will never be able to do because good opponents won't let you. Set up right, deploy the least threatening stuff first, creating lots of depth between you and your opponent, keep the threats in reserve to keep them paranoid--it's the only real advantage to having a larger army.

4x Dragoons is fine. Personally, I am skeptical of these 6x Dragoon units, though I am willing to give it a try; I prefer 4x for perfect pile-in, though I do concede that redundancy is nice if you are going to be relying on them for longterm damage. Anyhow, they need to be Stygies. -2 to hit is a huge deal. Infiltration is a huge deal. Giving them a Mars buff is nice and all, but it doesn't compare at all. I mean, if they're doing their job right, they will all be dead really fast, but they will buy you critical time and wreck a vehicle and make some plasma explode in the process. (Besides, if you're okay with 6 CP anyway, why not have the flexibility?)

Exactly stygies infiltration I use only 3 Dragoons. Since I got 5 and I use outrider. But those Dragoons infiltrating must be dealt from my enemy or they create tons of issues. And tbh any army if they let me shoot two round I'm fine. Robots got aegis. 3*10 troop don't care if they die. Balistarii got -1 hit are lascannons are on sides of my Robots and must be dealt cause they are 48" . Ame goes for my snipers backline side -1 and ofc I always choose shroud if I go second. We can still choose. Not to mention I can choose reroll hit rolls of one in melee when dragoon go in for a devastating result.

And it's not the most important issue. Most important is to take battalion guard. +3 cp 3 troops 2 heavy. Is the way to go for me. I need cp . I prefer to have options like infiltrating snipers if I need a second wrath of mars etc. I even consider exploding Dragoons inside enemy lines but usually I need to reroll some dice for onager wounding.

There is no reason not to have one guard detachment. If you now believe you must have 3 shakers whatever the cost go for it but...

I didn't like balistarii nor outrider nor an enginseer tax. But it's not bad to have healing for balistarii and or shkers. If I'm correct you suggested a unit of balistarii 4+ to buff and from there the outrider was emerged. What better way to play ad mech. Two twin lasc. With -1 for screener after guard troops with range to protect Robots it's ideal. And I repeat it cause their 48 range ensures outranged robots issue. Like 2 enemy onager list trying to out range you etc.

Two company commanders a) no points b) one is in front giving order to troops while my warlord is hidding.

As for Celestine. I trade Celestine for 3 Dragoons any day after some games. She is not for my lists. For various reasons. I know she rocks but you LL need to get a list bit towards her. Catachan rushers assassin's etc. You can't have her jumping 24 with no assassin's . There are so many combinations inside enemy lines to kill her. Her purpose is to work with assassin's and create havoc. Till you rest of the plan evolves. I don't care for that.

I got prolly best shooting and best defence for robots vehicles in game. And I just need

A) enough survive to be able to shoot two-three rounds .enough screener so I don't get tight up. And a distraction so my enemy can't focus move take over the map all rounds.

Elysians ok better than the other list. Just found cadian work better for my troops and earthshkers and Dragoons synergise tons better and faster. Balistarii as well. And since we I'mad mech I'd prefer it.

Stygies infiltrations(you can even info balistarii) . Astropaths skills and placement are weapons. If you are allowed you can have table control round one.

I just try to share my experience not convince none how to play. Thats what I found working for me better not that you won t have a blast with Celestine or 3 shakers or dunno. I got the same list with a graia battalion and troops stock just I need ad mech only works fine for a semi game. No earthshkers but more snipers more healing etc. Try it it's fun.
P.s even if I decided to run 3+3 heavys onagers and earth. I d prefer two earthshkers 2 neutron with dominus stugia and two icarus for Mars. Not three and three . Why cause it would be. Stationary dakka line so I d need to be able to split them in aLL deployment zone to have options not to loose vs a melee army....foundamentals in deploy and list build.

And as for surviving. It's all a matter how long you d keep Robots in aegis. You can't have better than aegis shroud defence for 110 points. What we talking is how long you would keep aegis on till you get in position or kill enough enemies or get in range bla bla. And how you'd force enemy to focus other units. Even if they focus robots with this list there are enough dakka to finish your enemy off.

So, the strategm: "Select an AdMech infantry unit from your army within 3‘‘ of an objective marker. Until the start of your next turn add +1 to all saving throws for that unit and increase Attacks for all models in that unit by 1"

I Does the 'saving throw' include invulnerable saving throws? I assume it does - normally they refer to 'Armour saving throws'

Are we going to get the Sisters treatment and not get any models for a few years?

 LexOdin9 wrote:
Are we going to get the Sisters treatment and not get any models for a few years?

No new plastic kits until 9th. Maybe some weapon addons in resin for resin models (that don't have 8th rules until mid 2018)

 LexOdin9 wrote:
Are we going to get the Sisters treatment and not get any models for a few years?

Seems pretty likely

Wulfey wrote:

 LexOdin9 wrote:
Are we going to get the Sisters treatment and not get any models for a few years?

No new plastic kits until 9th. Maybe some weapon addons in resin for resin models (that don't have 8th rules until mid 2018)

Can 9th like not be a thing? i feel like 8th kinda finally hit it out of the park. at the very least can we keep vehicles not having firing arcs or armor zones, keep the wounds and never have to worry about exactly which way the scatter dice are pointing or what counts as being under the template?

Except the lack or template weapons make infantry to good and the lack of positioning being important is one of the worst things in 8th

U02dah4 wrote:
Except the lack or template weapons make infantry to good and the lack of positioning being important is one of the worst things in 8th

gonna have to agree to disagree there, it makes it simpler and more streamlined.

U02dah4 wrote:
Except the lack or template weapons make infantry to good and the lack of positioning being important is one of the worst things in 8th

Arguing about templates and moving each squad slowly with 2" spacing is something I am not going to miss.

 ph34r wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Except the lack or template weapons make infantry to good and the lack of positioning being important is one of the worst things in 8th

Arguing about templates and moving each squad slowly with 2" spacing is something I am not going to miss.

Plus small blasts were so bad to begin with that a D3 being lackluster actually shows off how bad those weapons were to begin with.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Except the lack or template weapons make infantry to good and the lack of positioning being important is one of the worst things in 8th

Arguing about templates and moving each squad slowly with 2" spacing is something I am not going to miss.

Plus small blasts were so bad to begin with that a D3 being lackluster actually shows off how bad those weapons were to begin with.

yup. Also the damage system makes SOOOOOOOOO much more sense then the old instant death rule. " you telling me your 4 wound human just ate 3 30mm autocannon rounds and walked off"

lascannons and especially autocannons now feel as dangerous as they should be.

anyway we've drug this off topic far enough.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Wulfey wrote:

 LexOdin9 wrote:
Are we going to get the Sisters treatment and not get any models for a few years?

No new plastic kits until 9th. Maybe some weapon addons in resin for resin models (that don't have 8th rules until mid 2018)

Can 9th like not be a thing? i feel like 8th kinda finally hit it out of the park. at the very least can we keep vehicles not having firing arcs or armor zones, keep the wounds and never have to worry about exactly which way the scatter dice are pointing or what counts as being under the template?

Practically every other edition after 3rd was essentially a refinement of the previous edition rather than an overhaul. (I mean, GW gotta sell more codexes.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ph34r
I got my Quantum Cannons in the mail today. These things are full resin. Very heavy. And they got a lot of mould lines and some misalignment. Going to need crazy prep work. T_T

I don't remember 5th and 6th being that different. though i didn't play 6th much and never played 7th.

You're right. Forget the even and odd numbers. My point is that they do these overhauls once and awhile, then refine it in the next edition.

I like 8E a lot though. I do think the character rules, LOS, keyword usage, and starting turn order needs to be worked on, but getting rid of templates, toughness tables, damage states, and USRs is super helpful for newbies.

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
So, the strategm: "Select an AdMech infantry unit from your army within 3‘‘ of an objective marker. Until the start of your next turn add +1 to all saving throws for that unit and increase Attacks for all models in that unit by 1"

I Does the 'saving throw' include invulnerable saving throws? I assume it does - normally they refer to 'Armour saving throws'

Interesting if you could get close enough to an objective to do this on the offense. Unit Infiltrators or priests with +1 attack and better saves. Yes please!

Squad of priests with a 2++/4++ save and 3 attacks each

Edit: meh no dragoons.

Argh, I like the idea of having a unit of 3 Kataphron Destroyers - but it feels like they'd just be blasted off the board turn 1.. does anyone have any experience in using them?

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
Argh, I like the idea of having a unit of 3 Kataphron Destroyers - but it feels like they'd just be blasted off the board turn 1.. does anyone have any experience in using them?

Hey I did for my two last casual games. My list turned out much stronger than I expected (posted it a bit earlier, 1500 pts) and the Kataphron weren't disappointing. But it's important to know my two opponents didn't know quite well the army and learned what to focus next time (so, the Robots, the Onager and the Kataphrons). With the Elimination Volley stratagem they can be really nasty, I killed some Carnifexes with them and it was such an overkill I felt bad to totally annihilate my opponent (and he was a beginner at that, but he tried to tailor against me shamelessly so too bad I guess). I wouldn't take more than three though, they're costly and have to be played near Robots and at least a Dominus for some re-rolls, and use the stratagem when you REALLY need something destroyed.

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
Argh, I like the idea of having a unit of 3 Kataphron Destroyers - but it feels like they'd just be blasted off the board turn 1.. does anyone have any experience in using them?

They can move and fire with no penalty so even without spending cp to infiltrate or teleport them you can just stick them behind the largest bit of scenery you’re not already hiding your dunecrawler behind lol.

I also like the idea, though I’m not keen on the models myself. I’m looking forward to kitbashing some when they become more viable. What I was tempted with for a while was a squad of breaches with torsion cannons; short range blasty punchy goodness. But torsion cannons are way overpriced at the moment, hopefully chapter approved can do something about that.

Biggest issue I have with all of the non skitarii units bar priests is their 4+ BS but low shot count that normally compensates for it. I feel I’m just spoilt by dunecrawler efficiency for long range firepower. Kastellans make up for it with more shots, kataphrons don’t quite get that balance right.

I still feel that all types of servitor should get an aura bonus from a tech priest keyword character to improve their abilities via mind lock. We don’t take servitors because they’re not a stand out unit. They’re expensive, they’re not as hardy as robots despite being less skilled. They don’t have any leadership shenanigans despite being barely human and pretty much should be very resistant to morale damages. And their ability to stay alive is less than stellar.

Weapons wise the plasma culverin is an improved plasma cannon with an improved points cost, about the only well balanced weapon the kataphrons have though I’m still not sure the extra 6 points we pay over the marine equiavalent is with the d6 shots over d3. Expensive. The grav cannon is a perfect balance of shots and penetration with low strength but hugely expensive. The heavy arc rifle took a massive points cut in the codex but low number of shots and low strength means it doesn’t really have much of a role to play, in 7th arc rifles made penetrating vehicles easier, now they’re monumentally worse at it, but do potentially more damage (read: not enough) when they do. And finally the torsion cannon is a pseudo-wraith cannon but at 50% more cost on a model that’s 50% more cost aka too expensive. See the theme? :-)

I love the idea of kataphrons, but it almost feels like, at the risk of reducing our available model count further, we only needed one of those data sheets but all the options of both. They should benefit from a nearby tech priest and they should be cheaper. I want to take them, but balistarii fill their role of secondary mobile artillery much better imo.

D3 plasma cannons average 2 shots, d6 averages 3.5, it's close to being 2 plasma cannons.

Point for point kataphron destroyers are efficient at shooting. I know the math is out there somewhere, but they shoot well enough if they are babysat by Cawl. Never run them outside of mars tho, that 4+ to hit is horrendous. The problem is they are laughably easy to kill using ranged weapons and they fold worse than eldar in assault. I expect chapter approved to drop their base costs by 15 points in line with the drop in costs for inceptors.

Wulfey wrote:
Point for point kataphron destroyers are efficient at shooting. I know the math is out there somewhere, but they shoot well enough if they are babysat by Cawl. Never run them outside of mars tho, that 4+ to hit is horrendous. The problem is they are laughably easy to kill using ranged weapons and they fold worse than eldar in assault. I expect chapter approved to drop their base costs by 15 points in line with the drop in costs for inceptors.

unfortunately that wourld require GW to pay attention to the mechanicus section when they're writing it instead of copy and pasting again.

gendoikari87 wrote:
D3 plasma cannons average 2 shots, d6 averages 3.5, it's close to being 2 plasma cannons.

But could quite easily still be 1 shot.

D6 shots always worries me, regardless of averages. I’d rather take 2d3 or a straight 3 than d6 any day. I accept d3 on a neutron laser because I know if that 1 shot gets through there’s a good chance I’m doing at least 3 dmg to something. 1 shot of plasma feels great because it’s good str and ap mean there’s a good chance you’ll wound your target, until you remember it’s still only doing 1 dmg and that that’s why you needed more shots. To make it worth it.

I just don’t like the inconsistency; The gap between 1 and 6 feels huge (that’s what she said) plasma.