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Wulfey wrote:
Point for point kataphron destroyers are efficient at shooting. I know the math is out there somewhere, but they shoot well enough if they are babysat by Cawl. Never run them outside of mars tho, that 4+ to hit is horrendous. The problem is they are laughably easy to kill using ranged weapons and they fold worse than eldar in assault. I expect chapter approved to drop their base costs by 15 points in line with the drop in costs for inceptors.

In the old thread. Plasma is still the most point efficient weapon in the game, and Plasma Culverins are beastly. On the money about how flimsy they are though. You would have to put them in a bunker or something to make them pay off.

Suzuteo wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
Point for point kataphron destroyers are efficient at shooting. I know the math is out there somewhere, but they shoot well enough if they are babysat by Cawl. Never run them outside of mars tho, that 4+ to hit is horrendous. The problem is they are laughably easy to kill using ranged weapons and they fold worse than eldar in assault. I expect chapter approved to drop their base costs by 15 points in line with the drop in costs for inceptors.

In the old thread. Plasma is still the most point efficient weapon in the game, and Plasma Culverins are beastly. On the money about how flimsy they are though. You would have to put them in a bunker or something to make them pay off.

210 points of grav destroyers versus 240 points of earthshaker batteries
On first turn, it is a good 50% chance that destroyers won't even be in range. 5*3*0.75*0.33
3 grav destroyers on average with Cawl do 3.7 unsaved wounds to an ESB (no d3 since 4+ armor)
The ESB will always be in range of destroyers and 3 of them should do 4.35 unsaved wounds to the destroys, each of these subject to a D3 roll (expect 2 dead). 3*4.5*0.58*0.67*0.83

If you think your opponent might have ESBs, then your destroyers are just irrelevant. Maybe they get off 1 turn of shooting on something good. But 50% of the time they dead before they shoot.

You're right. I forgot to mention that the Plasma Culverin was the most point efficient gun at the time that I wrote about them. The Imperial Armour book had not come out yet. But yeah, ES Batteries are crazy good for 80 points.

so here's something hilarious ... a special weapon team is 45 points and needs 13.5 confirmed hits to kill. the 71 point kataphron needs 18 the SWS will have half a shot less at 24' than the kataphron and 2.5 more shots at 12"..... you're paying twice as much for 12' woth of maximum range.

Which is why I haven't seen them run yet

I d love breachers in my stygies. Infiltrating them taking a relic using that +1 save +1 attack seemed build for them. But it all comes down to points. 140 points I could get a neutronager. Or even infiltrate it. Why would I ever take breachers ?? ND they got a point reduction already.

As for destroyers . Once when they where actually a grav paper damage dealer yes. Risk and reward and we had twin linked all over. Now if I have to take 270 min and a bastion to fit them inside I'd prefer two robots and an onager cheaper any day. Or a knight almost. Even if we forget the cost and w decide on roles and we do in cases they don't fill it. Random d6 shots without even rolling twice I hilarious stupid. They don't cost 45 points each they cost 70+ why would they not even have a steady output?? It so stupid. If you take them and even if you manage to survive first or second round you still might get crap shooting for two rounds easily. If you don't overcharge and don't get a min of 9 shots you wasted tons of points. Any player that has faced ad mech before in his life will kill the with a bunch of bolters . If you loose 270 points from enemy small guns you just lost a guard battlion in one shooting!!


P.s breachers suppose to be a troop antitank. So make them one. If they get their weapons rapid 2 str 7 then hey will become something. Till then onager win.

For destroyers the old salvo rule should return. 3/5 shots move or stationary or 2d6 keep the highest to begin with. Could use 4 hp each fnp or 5+ invu if near an hq blq bla point reductions something but gw does. Or bother and we should not till they wake the ... Up

The only way to even remotely make them functional is 5 or 6 in a bastion

Comming in at only slightly more than an IK with 0 mobility

U02dah4 wrote:
The only way to even remotely make them functional is 5 or 6 in a bastion

Comming in at only slightly more than an IK with 0 mobility

And then they get zero buff to their shooting, so are mediocre at their specific goal and then have cost you even more points to compensate for their awfulness.

I wonder if simply giving them a 3+/5++ would give them the durability to put their points to use. Same as robots but without the aegis and deflection....or actually hell just give them the same save and protocols as robots. Would make a datasmith more worth taking then too.

Octovol wrote:
I wonder if simply giving them a 3+/5++ would give them the durability to put their points to use. Same as robots but without the aegis and deflection....or actually hell just give them the same save and protocols as robots. Would make a datasmith more worth taking then too.

I actually like the Protocols thing. Seems like all these semi-autonomous units should be subject to them - basically all servitor based stuff and Cybernetica stuff. Skitarii are still ostensibly human.

If I remember right, that is basically what 30k has via Cybertheurgy.

Good idea em

After playing Graia through an escalation league while Refusal to Yield can save the odd model its still random. And with the way it works it can really slow the game down when multi wound models and random damage weapons get involved as you have to do each hit one at a time unlike things like Disgustingly Resilient which meant round time became an issue even in smaller games. The stratagem is handy but it's hampered by being once per phase so any dedicated psycher force won't be hampered that much.

The only time I'm using Kataphrons now is as Torsion Breachers with Cawl, which serves as a nuke brigade that's seemingly really hilariously good at what it does.
I've tried them in a bunker, which works alright enough, but I'm feeling the difficulty without Cawl near them.

If Torsion Cannon automatically hit, it could be good. But there's a lot working against it; Neutron Laser is clearly better.

I'm musing on the worth of a Void Shield Generator for covering Kataphrons, but it's a 190 point investment.
I would be so inclined to suggest sticking the Kataphrons in a 100 point Bunker, which is within the Void Shield, but you're looking at 290 points protecting a thing.
It'll certainly get your opponent to ignore even trying to shoot them, I'm sure.

 Buddingsquaw wrote:
I'm musing on the worth of a Void Shield Generator for covering Kataphrons, but it's a 190 point investment.
I would be so inclined to suggest sticking the Kataphrons in a 100 point Bunker, which is within the Void Shield, but you're looking at 290 points protecting a thing.
It'll certainly get your opponent to ignore even trying to shoot them, I'm sure.

I think one main benefit of the Void Shield Generator is that you are still outside and can still benefit from Cawl.

Since I don't run Mars not a deficit.

Truth is if its outside you get buffs to shoot but your dead in a turn against a competant opponent so never making its pts back

Or it is inside a building not buffed but gets a few turns to make it's pts back which is not quick and stIll unlikely to cover the cost of building +kataphrons

Your not gonna get efficiency out of a unit that 35 pts a model too expensive

VSG is 195 points for something that gives you a 5++ in place of a 6++ in a tiny 6" bubble with strict rules for whoel units being within. GW FAQ nerfed it down to 5++. And kataphrons already have 6++.

What really killed the kataphron discussion was wrath of mars. In the index days kataphrons actually shot comparable damage per point with robots. Post wrath of mars ... kataphrons have no role.

Even if you don't run Mars, Binharic Override makes Kataphrons obsolete. Setting aside durability concerns, the only real edge that Kataphrons had were their mobility and ability to point and shoot immediately rather than spending a turn setting up.

This all being said, I still think a 6x unit of Kataphrons in Agripinaa can be something worth trying out. Just keep recycling them.

Suzuteo wrote:
Even if you don't run Mars, Binharic Override makes Kataphrons obsolete. Setting aside durability concerns, the only real edge that Kataphrons had were their mobility and ability to point and shoot immediately rather than spending a turn setting up.

This all being said, I still think a 6x unit of Kataphrons in Agripinaa can be something worth trying out. Just keep recycling them.

I get a strange sense of satisfaction on the consensus on what is competitive and what is not competitive from the codex.

Wulfey wrote:
VSG is 195 points for something that gives you a 5++ in place of a 6++ in a tiny 6" bubble with strict rules for whoel units being within. GW FAQ nerfed it down to 5++. And kataphrons already have 6++.
-snip-

Oh, I wasn't aware of that. Daresay the Hive Shield bundle they're releaseing with the Haemotropes will let you get it back up to 4++?
"generators that bolster the Void Shield Generator’s capacity".

But on another note: With Destroyers, what's the generally preferred secondary gun? Phosphor or Flamer?
I imagine it'll be a bit different now, what with Promethium pipes no longer making Flamers torrent weapons.

Ok I'd accept that getting a unit back without reserved points might be good but. You forgetting how awful the codex is.
Agripinaa ok and 6 destroyers right and 3 cp and 70+ per destroyers for d6 shot and then what? Detachments more tax.

We talking about Cawl and 3 Robots cost of points a crusader or so much more for what? If you spend 500+ and 3 cp just to shoot
With d6 it's bad. Grav could be a good decision but it's situational at least. The d6 their 4+ bs 4+ armor is extremely bad for 70+ and d6 shots. Plasma Ryza can be a really threat but we return on the easy death talk. Needs revamp and I don't mean buff revamp. Need to find a role.

Just reading today that Tyranid warriors are 20 points base now. Thats the sort of lvl a kataphron should be at. I wouldn't mind paying for the big guns at 20pts base. 172 pts for 3 grav destroyers (if they had the 3+ save which they should have anyway) is much easier to find a place for than 219.

Also need that +1 Bs and WS for being near a tech priest. Just....every new codex that comes out has me scratching my head, just so much missing thats being added to other units.

Octovol wrote:
Just reading today that Tyranid warriors are 20 points base now. Thats the sort of lvl a kataphron should be at. I wouldn't mind paying for the big guns at 20pts base. 172 pts for 3 grav destroyers (if they had the 3+ save which they should have anyway) is much easier to find a place for than 219.

Also need that +1 Bs and WS for being near a tech priest. Just....every new codex that comes out has me scratching my head, just so much missing thats being added to other units.

yeah I’m thinking of switching to guard entirely. Not even as counts as. No fun playing the army GW treats like the redheaded step children. Literally every other army has transports and most have flying transports but we who make ALL the imperiums pimp rides can’t take a chimera. Imagine how good skitarii could be with a chimera or taurox. Drive up pop smoke turn one turn two open up unleash plasma

gendoikari87 wrote:

Octovol wrote:
Just reading today that Tyranid warriors are 20 points base now. Thats the sort of lvl a kataphron should be at. I wouldn't mind paying for the big guns at 20pts base. 172 pts for 3 grav destroyers (if they had the 3+ save which they should have anyway) is much easier to find a place for than 219.

Also need that +1 Bs and WS for being near a tech priest. Just....every new codex that comes out has me scratching my head, just so much missing thats being added to other units.

yeah I’m thinking of switching to guard entirely. Not even as counts as. No fun playing the army GW treats like the redheaded step children. Literally every other army has transports and most have flying transports but we who make ALL the imperiums pimp rides can’t take a chimera. Imagine how good skitarii could be with a chimera or taurox. Drive up pop smoke turn one turn two open up unleash plasma

I have already started buying myself an Eldar army. GW has one shot to fix AdMech before the end of year to keep me playing it - Chapter Approved. If they can't give me a reason to play with my whole collection and not long for rules/models from other armies, why play it (competitively speaking)?

At least Eldar have flyers, psykers, and mobility on top of their solid shooting. AdMech is just a static gunline detachment you augment with the all-around better Guard now. Absolutely tragic.

I looked over the eldar codex and they have excellent anti tank but I could t find much in the way of really efficient anti infantry? What did I miss?

As someone who has 4 boxes of Kataphrons this talk has me a little worried.

gendoikari87 wrote:
I looked over the eldar codex and they have excellent anti tank but I could t find much in the way of really efficient anti infantry? What did I miss?

Depends what your idea of efficient anti infantry is. It's my understanding shuriken cannons and scatter lasers are their anti infantry guns. Or shadow weavers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrDwhitey wrote:
As someone who has 4 boxes of Kataphrons this talk has me a little worried.

They're not bad, just way too expensive for what they do. Given the points reductions flying around chapter approved, there's a good chance all the stuff we have thats currently not worth it could be made useful purely by being cheaper.

gendoikari87 wrote:
I looked over the eldar codex and they have excellent anti tank but I could t find much in the way of really efficient anti infantry? What did I miss?

Shadow Specter Prism Rifles generating up to 3 S6 -3 shots a piece. Webway Guardians for 20 Catapult and 6 Cannon shots. Even Fire Prisms can shoot dispersed for 2d6 shots each at S6 -3, which will chew up MEQ. Dark Reapers can throw down Starswarm shots, which are S5 -2 2D, which will put some pain on Primaris type stuff. Most Wave Serpents are triple Cannons, so 9 shots. Windriders with Cannons are also incredibly point efficient.

They do err towards more anti-tank, but a lot of stuff also carries secondary anti-infantry weapons, so I think the army has a nice well-rounded spread.

Guess I’m just spoiled on kastelans shooting 18 str 6 shots at -2.... for 110 points