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U02dah4 wrote:

1) stygies AdMech are overall more durable and rangers most durable for the pts. Although guard are strong at this.
2) neither perform this roll well as neither deploy ahead of the army although since AdMech can advance and fire they ofter get further T1.
3) AdMech are better T1 going first guard become significantly better at 9"
4) stygies admech take 50% less W T1,T2 and then don't lose anywhere near the w to moral so are net better

5) advancing to take and hold enemy objectives favours vanguard who can advance and fire.

1) Model count determines objective secured. In terms of points per model, Guard win flat out.
2) You forward deploy the infantry and you don't move them.
3) A Guard Mortar gets off way more shots over the course of a game than an entire unit of Vanguard will.
4) They still die in one turn. Guard tend to last two.
5) Dragoons do this much better.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 lash92 wrote:
Hey folks, I got two questions:

1) Whats our best bet in dealing with Mortarion / Magnus?

2) Normally I´m playing armoured Guard, so lots of mechanised infantry and Russes. Is there some good way to combine it with AdMech or should I just stick to solo Guard?

1) Six Wrathbots w/ Cawl - you can drop a Primarch a turn, just about. Add your Neutronagers to the mix and you should be good.

2) lol Usually AdMech borrows from Guard. Post-CA, not sure how much, but taking the aforementioned Cawl + Wrathbots is a solid addition in a Spearhead with some Neutronagers. Its a good half your army, but you can get a lot of mileage out of it.

Elimination volley also works to get off even more mortal wounds and free overcharged plasma.

Suzuteo wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

1) stygies AdMech are overall more durable and rangers most durable for the pts. Although guard are strong at this.
2) neither perform this roll well as neither deploy ahead of the army although since AdMech can advance and fire they ofter get further T1.
3) AdMech are better T1 going first guard become significantly better at 9"
4) stygies admech take 50% less W T1,T2 and then don't lose anywhere near the w to moral so are net better

5) advancing to take and hold enemy objectives favours vanguard who can advance and fire.

1) Model count determines objective secured. In terms of points per model, Guard win flat out.
2) You forward deploy the infantry and you don't move them.
3) A Guard Mortar gets off way more shots over the course of a game than an entire unit of Vanguard will.
4) They still die in one turn. Guard tend to last two.
5) Dragoons do this much better.

1) survival determines objective secured more frequently you don't hold an objective if your dead. It is very rare to have objective control determined by most models. model per pts is part of that equation but so is -1 to hit at 12" +1sv and auto cover for 2 turns and vulnerability to moral checks. guard lose overall

2) neither starts outside the deployment zone and you could just as easily forward deploy vanguard

3) infantry squad 1 mortar fires Avg 3.5 shots per turn or 17.5 shots across a 5 turn game 1 unit of vanguard fires 15 shots T1 d6" into enemy deployment zone so by T2 your argument fails if 1 model survives

4) My experience would counter that as does the maths factoring in stygies and shroudspalm +1sv and moral, vanguard and rangers are more survivable T1 and T2 than guard even given there higher W count

5) They are complementary due to the -1T and high volume low strength fire. I'm not suggesting an infantry only army but the ability to advance and fire is huge when trying to take their objectives

I take guard for orders and cp gains. Won't change my cheap battalion cp generator and troops with orders. They are superb at what they do.

But if can't take guard cause I play solo ad mech or cause tour rules prohibid or usually in team only one can take each faction.

Then atm I will definitely use rangers vanguard's and breachers.

And I am already making my abjusted lists with this in mind.

I won't take basilisk exactly cause of bs4. It's bad. And it's not ad mech. Yes you got better chance with a huge balistarii lasc group ofc cause you buff it.

If we gonna talk brigade then 10+ staff priests must be included changing one datasmith. 160 points can make it happen even vs Mortarion if they get the chance and got 3 spare cp. Even with out double fight still. I usually find a char multi charge and there you go . Priests usually last 3 rounds inside enemy lines if you pop +3 first round.

Basilisk are stationary if I am to return to dakka line onager better Cawl better. I prefer to move and shoot than sit and los shoot. Get 6 onager 3/3 but with one 4+ lasc balistarii you should be fine.

Arc rifles in the mix of troops can provide a cheap punch. Taser for vanguard alpha. Use what you got.

Breachers screen move shoot hold obj infiltrate behind enemy lines a unit of 6 with 1 cp survives battles.

Consider the dominus with breachers and technomartyr as you footsloger. No need to infiltrate datasmith . Priests can do it . Breachers can camp important obj or relic fights dragons can walk the field and yes special weapons teams like 10 man vanguard plasma Omni can be infiltrated extremely effective.

U02dah4 wrote:

1) survival determines objective secured more frequently you don't hold an objective if your dead. It is very rare to have objective control determined by most models. model per pts is part of that equation but so is -1 to hit at 12" +1sv and auto cover for 2 turns and vulnerability to moral checks. guard lose overall

2) neither starts outside the deployment zone and you could just as easily forward deploy vanguard

3) infantry squad 1 mortar fires Avg 3.5 shots per turn or 17.5 shots across a 5 turn game 1 unit of vanguard fires 15 shots T1 d6" into enemy deployment zone so by T2 your argument fails if 1 model survives

4) My experience would counter that as does the maths factoring in stygies and shroudspalm +1sv and moral, vanguard and rangers are more survivable T1 and T2 than guard even given there higher W count

5) They are complementary due to the -1T and high volume low strength fire. I'm not suggesting an infantry only army but the ability to advance and fire is huge when trying to take their objectives

1) Absolutely false. I don't think my Rangers ever successfully contested an objective against other infantry based on their survival ability. In fact, the dominance of Horrors, Conscripts, and Boyz has taught us anything, it's that it's numbers that make objective secured a reality. (Most of the time, my artillery has to clear the objective, and my models just park themselves on top of it.)
2) Again, you don't want to move your infantry, especially not in the first 3 rounds or so when you need to deny deep strike, stop assault units, or block movement.
3) Ah, I meant Rangers, but I can probably see Mortars outperforming Vanguard too. Consistent 48" indirect fire support is super useful.
4) Most anti-horde weapons clean Skitarii in one turn.
5) They are not complementary. You can't advance and fight, and Vanguard are pretty awful at getting down the board.

1) conscripts are dead see chapter approved as to horrors and boys if they are in CC with your guardsman they are not holding the objective by numbers anymore than the vanguard would be

2) if your purpose is forcing the enemy to deepstrike as far away from your objectives as possible you need to advance out of your deployment zone you do however need to leave some models back usually the artillery

3) they absolutely are useful especially backfield but they do not come close to matching vanguard for firepower or survivability but you would be better off taking hws over infantry with 1 mortar if that's what you intended or else you waste most of the squads effectiveness neither infantry or vanguard perform well backfield

4) any antihoard weapon that can kill on Avg 3 vanguard who then lose d6-4 to moral will on Avg kill 9 guardsman (kill 6 d6-1 die to moral) vanguard are not invulnerable but neither are guard. They are however more survivable T1 and T2

5) Turn1 you advance and shoot turn 2 you may shoot and charge or you may advance or you may retreat depends what the enemy does but should you get in the same fight as dragoons that -1T can be quite a buff. I'm also not saying they are good at getting down the board but they are better at it than guardsman which was the point of comparison.

1) Guardsmen are the new Conscripts, and the same principles for why they were so effective apply.

2) There's no point to advancing out of the deployment zone. Also, what about when you need to castle?

3) Again, the improvement in survivability is insignificant. Yes, if you get Shroudpsalm, you match Guardsmen durability, and if you get Stygies, you surpass them. But if Guardsmen get cover, they are close to matching you. (Also, once they get into Rapid Fire range and you lose Stygies, you're screwed.)

This all being said, the crux of my argument is this: Guardsmen are better because having more bodies is a material advantage, regardless of how much more marginally durable Skitarii are. I can literally run up to an objective, shoot, and not even kill anything, but get objective secured. (That is literally what people were doing with Conscripts and Horrors.) Furthermore, Guardsmen have access to a 48" weapon, meaning moving up the field is not a requirement, and they can be threatening to other infantry while staying out of range.

4) Nobody is going to kill 3 Vanguard and call it a day. But aside from that, refer to the previous comment.

5) Turn 2 all of your Vanguard are dead. And honestly, unless we're fighting T8 vehicles, the -1T isn't terribly relevant for Dragoons; T5 stuff gets handled by Kastelans. >_>

The new sister's strategem requires you to remove the unit from the field before employing the strategem ... RIP celestine. All basilisks now. To Suzuteo, I think the template list is now something like this:

MARS spearhead
Cawl + 5x Dakkabots + 3x Onager
1x4 Dragoons (either MARS or STYGIES depending on how you value CP and the book keeping of multiple forgeworlds)

CADIA battalion (need them CP)
2x Commander, 3x10 guardsmen, 3x Basilisk
Grand strategist WLT, Kurov's default relic, Relic of Cadia for 1CP depending on opponent

EDIT: the only real flexibility here is dropping 1 Onager to add 2 Dragoons.

My Conscripts + Commisar + Astropath + Celestine + ESBattery SoCal open list was out and out stronger than this.

EDIT2: on the subject of where to put those last 40 points, I lean towards cognis heavy stubbers. For 5 points, it is hard to beat 36" 3xstr4 shots that full reroll to hit. No matter what i put on those guardsmen, it is 4+ rerolling 1s at best (unless relic of lost cadia ... then okay yeah). 3x mortars are comparable to 3x heavy stubbers, but they are less mobile and less accurate and have an opportunity cost of 1 lasgun.

EDIT3: alright, one good argument for the mortars is morale management. Put the wounds on the mortar first if you expect a tough morale roll.

I rarely find myself moving my infantry too much unless I have set them up to move. But yes, this seems to be the best mix of stuff. I think 6 Dragoons is ideal because I am going Stygies. It is CP intensive though.

Ok it's becoming pointless. We can't say it 200 times. Obviously with a reduced cost our troops can be of use. With up s and downs.

If we can take guard ofc we will for the 5+/5+ wont change. The number of bodies the area they cover and orders. Move move ,first rank SR , and fall back. Won't change and it's guard ok.

Ofc for super competitive better take best from all armies.
Guard troops marine elites and mech vehicles Im with you.

But as I said there are many times friendly games and test games or team tours that you don't want can't take or you don't want to bother your opponent with heavy lists.

A Graia battalion it's the way to go. 200-250 points is cheap provides bodies you can take group of 6 vanguards utilize shooting in melee so arc rangers matters. Superb and can be a great tool.

Now if you got a detachment stygies any you can use the troop slot for more expensive units prefer multi wounds. No need to make it a battalion. 1*3-6 breachers as second line defence mkes a great choise . You must take your snipers as well in stygies as a long range or second line for your lines rocks. Same for balistarii in your fields anything from ongers to balistarii breachers snipers even hq that -1 Is best used 12 "+ deep strike enemy.

So guard Graia optimal front lines then Stygies. Optional if we talking seriously (yes also -1 AP but I m talking usable dogmas)

- We moan about the lack of transports to protect our vulnerable troops
- We spend a lot of time screening our CawlWall of Dakkabots and Onagers

Alternate option which I've had some success with... take a 100pt Imperial Bunker.

Had good success with it again this week, in a tough game vs guard... he brought infantry, shadowsword, Pask, russes, basilisks... it's a tournament practice game.

Deployed the bunker containing my 10 Fulgurite electropriests. Rremember you get a 9" move out of a transport so your bunker is creating a 20" ish wide zone where the fulgurites can leap out and smash face without even worrying about a charge roll. If you assume a 7" charge, they project a 3 foot diameter threat bubble... which is a huge "denial zone".

Also, the opponent will find easy to forget about this. Remember the imperial bunker looks like scenery, particularly on tables with lots of other GW buildings. Don't paint it all bright and funky, do it grey or green or brown or something. I've had people blindly walk into smashface zone, forgetting I had the fulgurites in play.

I put my Kastelans and at least one objective within this zone.

In the above game, he moved some Bullgryns into the zone on the way to assault me. Priests wiped the squad and got their 3+ 5++ up and running. From that point on, they are something that really needs to be dealt with.


The downside of this tactic is that if you are playing against a static gunline, your fulgurites are going to be way less useful. In that case they are only really good to protect against deep strike or jump on objectives.


Anyway, if you have the models it's a fun little tactic. If we get the Triaros or the Macrocarid then you might as well just drive them closer, of course!

I'd kill for the Macrocarid. Just because it looks amazing. I don't know if GW will give us that one in FoC.

As for bunker Fulgurites... I like that. A lot.

I'm going to tinker with the idea now.

EDIT:
Looking at fortifications, the bunker is good - but only holds 10 dudes. I think going for 20 might be best, in case we want to do a fat squad of Priests or load up a 10-man with some Skitarii to shoot out of it. So that would mean the Bastion might be ideal, mostly because it is T9 20W over the Firestorm Redoubt which is only T8. That single point seems small, but it makes a decent difference in to-wound, making even SC Plasma need 5's and Lascannons 4's, which might be vital.

Imperial Bastion
4x Heavy Bolters, Quad Gun
[222]

It also has 12 S5 shots from the HBs and the Quad Gun for anti-air work. It won't likely kill much, but for the price, it isn't bad. And disembarking is within 3", meaning with 6" movement, we have more like 10" of spread from the Bastion and then we make our charges. That is a huge denial area, since no one wants to eat a charge from Fulgurites. My issue is that I have to find 222pt... meaning I lose something important.

I believe I saw a Macrocarid in my FoC image collection. I could be wrong, of course,

 Verviedi wrote:
I believe I saw a Macrocarid in my FoC image collection. I could be wrong, of course,

I couldn't find anything indicating it was in. I do believe I saw an Ordinatus though... which will be ridiculously overpriced, if the CA points are any indicator.

Suzuteo wrote:
1) Guardsmen are the new Conscripts, and the same principles for why they were so effective apply.

2) There's no point to advancing out of the deployment zone. Also, what about when you need to castle?

3) Again, the improvement in survivability is insignificant. Yes, if you get Shroudpsalm, you match Guardsmen durability, and if you get Stygies, you surpass them. But if Guardsmen get cover, they are close to matching you. (Also, once they get into Rapid Fire range and you lose Stygies, you're screwed.)

This all being said, the crux of my argument is this: Guardsmen are better because having more bodies is a material advantage, regardless of how much more marginally durable Skitarii are. I can literally run up to an objective, shoot, and not even kill anything, but get objective secured. (That is literally what people were doing with Conscripts and Horrors.) Furthermore, Guardsmen have access to a 48" weapon, meaning moving up the field is not a requirement, and they can be threatening to other infantry while staying out of range.

4) Nobody is going to kill 3 Vanguard and call it a day. But aside from that, refer to the previous comment.

5) Turn 2 all of your Vanguard are dead. And honestly, unless we're fighting T8 vehicles, the -1T isn't terribly relevant for Dragoons; T5 stuff gets handled by Kastelans. >_>

1) No it goes back to survivability and conscripts were 25% more survivable for there pts which i's why they were successful. Guardsman wIll see a lot of play no one disputes that but if your goal is survival admech studies are better.

2) Castleing us nit the only strategy and even then I want as wide a moat as I can

3) if I run guard I take at least 6 infantry squads it's exceptionally rare to have even 50% in cover and any competent opponent is going to shoot the out of cover squads first. Your still 33% more survicable without stygies and less effected by moral making it very close. If they are within 12" you need to be moving to assault or back to 18" it's not a good place to be

Extra bodies is an advantage so is better sv -1to hit and auto cover. The 48 inch weapon never makes the points back unless the enemy come to you and let the rest of the squad fire and your entire argument is predicted on only of value if you castle. Durability is vital conscripts were successful because of durability for pts nerf comissars not as durable less popular nerf pts unplayable.

4) most players will keep shooting till they run out if shots point is if you kill 6-7 guardsman you likely wipe the squad in moral and if you kill 3 vanguard which is the equivalent you likely don't so the enemy can move on and shoot the next guards quad while they send more shots into the vanguard

5) You seem to work on a principLe T2 all vanguard are dead and all guardsman are alive you see nothing falty in this logic given guardsman being less durable . I don't Kastelans as I don't run cawl I'm not Mars.

I am desperate for Fires of Cyraxus guys.

My 30k army looks at me every day on the shelf and sighs sadly in exasperation.

Should I wait for that release or start planning my admech army now?

Write your own Fires Of Cyraxus. It will be done before FW’s version.

 Verviedi wrote:
Write your own Fires Of Cyraxus. It will be done before FW’s version.

LOL! If only the club would accept this T.T

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I am desperate for Fires of Cyraxus guys.

My 30k army looks at me every day on the shelf and sighs sadly in exasperation.

Should I wait for that release or start planning my admech army now?

We still have no idea when it will hit, I've heard some rumors of February but who knows at this point, I mean you will save a lot of money waiting since I sure most of the 30k stuff will replace any of the current stuff unless they cost it badly and the 8th rules are bad which given how some view the current ad mech codex is quite possibly likely. I still have hope and think we are not in to bad of a position at present either especially with the points reductions in CA.

I run kastellans without cawl. They're exceptional at clearing fodder and wearing down pretty much anything. Even just two of them plays on your opponents mind, especially if you switch them to conqueror, the added pressure of those 36 str 6 -2ap shots is enough to worry plenty of people.

You're all too impatient lol. Fires is coming in 2018 is the last official update we have, it's certainly not going to be any time soon. We can surely speculate what will come over from 30k, but for all we know all the models might be new! Some of the mechanicum FW stuff just doesn't quite fit the aesthetic of 40k's admech imo. Especially the Triaros, tank tracks yes, weird 60s mafia car look-a-like, no.

Octovol wrote:
Some of the mechanicum FW stuff just doesn't quite fit the aesthetic of 40k's admech imo. Especially the Triaros, tank tracks yes, weird 60s mafia car look-a-like, no.

This is a beef I have with it too. The Macrocarid fits. Most of the rest doesn't. I'll have to find a way to mod stuff with the existing range so it looks more cohesive.

I'm impressed how pessimistic people are being given the upcoming chapter approved price cuts. We've now got cheaper sources of everything.

Our basic infantry are solid at 7/8 points, we don't have the bodies of IG, but at only 35/40 points for a basic squad they are still great. For a 3 point upcharge you get rangers instead of guardsmen, with a better gun, bs, armor save, plus the canticles and 5 man unit to make getting cover much easier than an IG squad, and while we have the same leadership keeping them at 5 man units means we are less likely to take significant morale losses. Oh and our sarge gets a rifle, which is minor but nice. At 35 points for a basic unit it's also amongst the cheapest troop filler in the game, only Gretchen and Brimstones can be had for less at 30 points for a basic unit.

I know people are upset about transports still, but really why? Infiltrators are now cheap enough to be compareable to a hypothetical set of corpus priests in a transport, and the now cheaper destroyers have a similar relationship to plasma vanguard. I get if it's an aesthetic thing, but it's not going to actually make the army better, unless it happens to be a particularly shooty transport. I just don't really see the appeal balance wise, unless you are desperate to use fulgerites/rustalkers and hate Stygies.

I maintain our codex wasn't as bad as people claimed balance wise (externally at least, internally was more of an issue) and chapter approved looks to be tweaking those issues as well.

Bunker fulgrites? uh don't they have like a 15" range?

SilverAlien wrote:
I'm impressed how pessimistic people are being given the upcoming chapter approved price cuts. We've now got cheaper sources of everything.

Our basic infantry are solid at 7/8 points, we don't have the bodies of IG, but at only 35/40 points for a basic squad they are still great. For a 3 point upcharge you get rangers instead of guardsmen, with a better gun, bs, armor save, plus the canticles and 5 man unit to make getting cover much easier than an IG squad, and while we have the same leadership keeping them at 5 man units means we are less likely to take significant morale losses. Oh and our sarge gets a rifle, which is minor but nice. At 35 points for a basic unit it's also amongst the cheapest troop filler in the game, only Gretchen and Brimstones can be had for less at 30 points for a basic unit.

I know people are upset about transports still, but really why? Infiltrators are now cheap enough to be compareable to a hypothetical set of corpus priests in a transport, and the now cheaper destroyers have a similar relationship to plasma vanguard. I get if it's an aesthetic thing, but it's not going to actually make the army better, unless it happens to be a particularly shooty transport. I just don't really see the appeal balance wise, unless you are desperate to use fulgerites/rustalkers and hate Stygies.

I maintain our codex wasn't as bad as people claimed balance wise (externally at least, internally was more of an issue) and chapter approved looks to be tweaking those issues as well.

Useless units in the INDEX are still useless after chapter approved. That's what I have a problem with...

gendoikari87 wrote:
Bunker fulgrites? uh don't they have like a 15" range?

You deploy from the bunker within 3", so about a 4" footprint. Plus movement, for 6". Then charging for ~7" on average. So about 17" in all directions. So if you put the bunker down in the right spot, it is a huge area denial option.

In theory.

If I am going bunker, there better be 9 kataphron destroyers in there. Striaght up deathball when it pops out. Get in 1 round of shooting, hope you win right there.

Wulfey wrote:
If I am going bunker, there better be 9 kataphron destroyers in there. Striaght up deathball when it pops out.

Kataphrons are crap though. At least the Fulgurites can kill stuff on the charge and then become an even more credible threat! Plus, slinging mortal wounds.

Example of Bunker being useful


Pop the destroyers out of the bunker, 1CP Binharic Override, 2CP wrath of mars on bots, 2CP elimination volley, 1CP left over to reroll when bunker blows up

Win or lose in a single round of shooting. This list can kill 2 daemon primarchs with average shooting if they don't have -1 to be hit. If they do, you are only killing 1.

Great cost. Yes bastion I'm used in various cases early on but.

You are missing the point here. Even armies with transports won't get many transports in lists. Yes transports can help same as buildings. And I used a bunker extensively in 7th with hatch and ammo etc. But.

All the above where part of a plan. You army was able to play xtrmely well and the canticlex where nice and you had a chance.

You started with good bs and shooting and finished of with some melee buffs. Atm as most edition got buffed we got badly nerfed.
The canticles are sub par. I'd prefer a fall back shoot any day that's str +1 or that crap electromancy.

We don't have abilities on units . And that is bad and you don't need to ask for new books or cry about it. Ad mech is crap atm.

Vs mortals. A stupid invu save won't see us vs the mortal smite spamm.

Since we can't have Onagers in unit and we practically end up with 13+ units we go second eliminating the cover save we get as canticle. Going second is huge and there is where transport comes in play.

Tranport main role is to get hits big enough so your troops won't and give you mobility with points. Now we pay with cp for both.
And it's stressing any competitive games we get since you don't have a reroll for a dice any more. So few lways counted every single one it's stupid.

That the problem you don't take inq. For that -2 toughness we did with vanguard grenades etc. You don't have ws and bs buff on skitarii by default no fearless no super relics nothing. When they released the army y they took out all flavor. Infiltrators had the aura and rustalkers we all had blind chance for melee defence and fnp. That's why we where T3. Now the 2 wounds are v low even the 3 wounds Re low with no fnp we are open to all enemy plans. All. A simple -1 -2 AP army hurt us. We are paper and we don't deliver so much dakka to be able to change it.

Yes Cawl Robots that's it. Cheap troops ok help a bit in detachmenfs but will not change one damn bit. My lists all got invalid with earth change and I got 50-70 points off my lists so what? Instead of 10 troop I get 15 and?

I see us going second we got the tools to go second and take advantage of it. That's how you should consider his. Go second use los for ongers and everything able to move shoot etc. First line troops second line -1 to hit the. Robots. Going second you LL defend with aegis no matter what. Etc and shroud active.

From that point on we are forced to play with stygies a detachment with LL options. You must have priests breachers Dragoons always in there even snipers and use all you can depending on the fight.

Troops you need to work that as well stationary rangers need to have and be in cover . Use shroud to move troop in mid field . You got stronger troop few but better play them los etc.

You need to start taking more durable units . Like breachers like Onagers robots Dragoons etc. Invest.

Make a three layer defence with LL your weapons . Graia vanguard's stygies breachers etc. Gems for defence .
This will easily give you the two maybe 3 rounds you need.

That's ad mech atm and v v hard to play anything else. Same goes for a knight. Take one better two use them maybe you get two rounds maybe. If you use proper shields.

Same for any other guard imperium building soup. If I was to use priests like counter is don't need the bastion or bunker and won't pay 200 for it. The issue is to fit them and play them offensive.

If you don't play robots and Cawl. You need stygies and priests no matter what. Or if you feel gambling Lucius .

I play 2 battalions stygies ryza with plasma!. Not bad not superb.
You can solo Brigade now mars stygies . Etc. There are some valid options now we got cheap things. Try them out they are not so bad. Find what suits you and as we saw all point we are not that bad point wise. Just make a plan with cp and play it. If you go static Cawl robots if you don't the. You need to move split armies split troops use you weapons .

You can't play the same all the time! Priest must be played. They got fnp usable with -1 for second line of defence . With technomartyr scary overwatch good chance to live cheap. There are some options not great but in the end as the rest of armies all got issue you can use stygies Lucius as detachments with your options able to decide them v each enemy that versatile option must be used .

I saw Reece saying eldar is a Finese army and I will add ad mech.

Tip . I use a Ryza plasma battalion and a balistarii lasc 1*5 stygies tribute to Suzuteo. There is a cognis overwatch stratagem that allow cognis weapons to fire full ballistic . Awesome.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Useless units in the INDEX are still useless after chapter approved. That's what I have a problem with...

I disagree, I'd argue that chapter approved made two marginal choices viable (destroyers/infiltrators), if not must haves, and made two more as fixed as mere point changes can do (breachers, fulgerites).

For the first, I think destroyers are now cheap enough you can justify using a unit to boost your Kastalens with the stratagem. Yes it isn't much of a role but it's basically all they can have so long as Kastalens basically end up fighting for the same versatile slot efficient heavy weapon role.

Infiltrators were also a more marginal unit that was mainly held back by being just a touch too expensive, and the point cost reduction is enough to make me feel they are a decent option for some additional anti infantry deepstriking fun for anyone who isn't using corpus priests with the deepstrike stratagem.

At 40 ppm for arc claw/rifle the breachers is about as fixed as it can be. It's three space marine tacticals stacked on top of each other with better weaponry and s/t plus worse bs/ws. It gives us a tougher troop choice that is expensive but not to the point of absurdity. More bodies is generally more useful, but having the option is nice.

Fulgerites are just bad conceptually. They have a super swingy ability that doesn't trigger till they wipe their first enemy unit, they are slow melee troops in an army with few options for improved mobility, they don't synergize well with the better canticles (the one that gives cover or the rerolling 1s to shoot), and their main role appears to be dealing mortal wounds in melee, and exceptionally niche role to begin with. They just don't fit with the army on a basic level and you can't do much to fix besides starting over with them. As it stands they have some usage with the Stygies stratagem to get an early first turn charge, but that's really all they will ever be good for tbh.

So I think they made a decent pass at some of the weaker units, and also tweaked our HQ/troops situation a bit more which was welcome. A few units could've used more point cuts (rust stalkers), and ironstriders still struggle to find a role that is actually needed unlike the really fast heavy weapon platform it currently is.