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Silver, I have used Fulgurites as a screen and counter-assault unit to pretty good success. They can't be ignored, which is a boon. I just wish they were 14ppm, so they didn't feel like such an expensive unit that can easily get wiped from shooting. C'est la vie. Once we get any transports at all, they will be golden.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Silver, I have used Fulgurites as a screen and counter-assault unit to pretty good success. They can't be ignored, which is a boon. I just wish they were 14ppm, so they didn't feel like such an expensive unit that can easily get wiped from shooting. C'est la vie. Once we get any transports at all, they will be golden.

I just feel like I get more mileage from ruststalkers as they are faster and can benefit from cover canticle so they are less vulnerable to shooting. They just seem to work better with admech as it currently exists as far as I've seen, in the same basic role as what you described.

Ruststalkers are ridiculously overpriced for what they do. >_>

Would would you rather have?

3 rustalkers, or a Dragoon?
1 kataphron destroyer, or a Dragoon?
8 fulgurites, or 2 Dragoons?
3 breaches, or 2 Dragoons?
5 infiltrators, or 2 Dragoons?

Arguably the destroyer has a role that the Dragoon doesn't eat. But the rest of them ... give me the dragoons.

Destroyers just lack the survivability for there pts by a country mile

They've gone from terrible to bad especially if your not mars

Wulfey wrote:
Would would you rather have?

3 rustalkers, or a Dragoon?
1 kataphron destroyer, or a Dragoon?
8 fulgurites, or 2 Dragoons?
3 breaches, or 2 Dragoons?
5 infiltrators, or 2 Dragoons?

Arguably the destroyer has a role that the Dragoon doesn't eat. But the rest of them ... give me the dragoons.

1. Dragoon
2. Dragoon
3. Dragoons
4. Dragoons
5. I wish infiltrators were actually good because they are so cool, but probably the Dragoons

SilverAlien wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Silver, I have used Fulgurites as a screen and counter-assault unit to pretty good success. They can't be ignored, which is a boon. I just wish they were 14ppm, so they didn't feel like such an expensive unit that can easily get wiped from shooting. C'est la vie. Once we get any transports at all, they will be golden.

I just feel like I get more mileage from ruststalkers as they are faster and can benefit from cover canticle so they are less vulnerable to shooting. They just seem to work better with admech as it currently exists as far as I've seen, in the same basic role as what you described.

Fulgurites can benefit from cover, depending on the AP. And they are much better for the price. Ruststalkers are absurdly overpriced.

I just wish Ruststalkers had some AP... Even just AP-1 would test me to try and make them work. I cant ever see myself taking them over discosticks for their counter assault role though.

I try to use them... Cause they are so cool, but many... they always let me down.

SilverAlien wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Useless units in the INDEX are still useless after chapter approved. That's what I have a problem with...

I disagree, I'd argue that chapter approved made two marginal choices viable (destroyers/infiltrators), if not must haves, and made two more as fixed as mere point changes can do (breachers, fulgerites).

For the first, I think destroyers are now cheap enough you can justify using a unit to boost your Kastalens with the stratagem. Yes it isn't much of a role but it's basically all they can have so long as Kastalens basically end up fighting for the same versatile slot efficient heavy weapon role.

Infiltrators were also a more marginal unit that was mainly held back by being just a touch too expensive, and the point cost reduction is enough to make me feel they are a decent option for some additional anti infantry deepstriking fun for anyone who isn't using corpus priests with the deepstrike stratagem.

At 40 ppm for arc claw/rifle the breachers is about as fixed as it can be. It's three space marine tacticals stacked on top of each other with better weaponry and s/t plus worse bs/ws. It gives us a tougher troop choice that is expensive but not to the point of absurdity. More bodies is generally more useful, but having the option is nice.

Fulgerites are just bad conceptually. They have a super swingy ability that doesn't trigger till they wipe their first enemy unit, they are slow melee troops in an army with few options for improved mobility, they don't synergize well with the better canticles (the one that gives cover or the rerolling 1s to shoot), and their main role appears to be dealing mortal wounds in melee, and exceptionally niche role to begin with. They just don't fit with the army on a basic level and you can't do much to fix besides starting over with them. As it stands they have some usage with the Stygies stratagem to get an early first turn charge, but that's really all they will ever be good for tbh.

So I think they made a decent pass at some of the weaker units, and also tweaked our HQ/troops situation a bit more which was welcome. A few units could've used more point cuts (rust stalkers), and ironstriders still struggle to find a role that is actually needed unlike the really fast heavy weapon platform it currently is.

Infiltrators were OK to begin with. Breachers still remain unuseable. Durability wise they are outclassed by dragoons against every weapon.

Dragoons are faster and do a lot more damage when you want them to as well(1cp)
Weapons wise, torsion is a complete joke and Arc Rifle is a very illogical weapon. It's a str 6 AP2 weapon that is supposed to fight Toughness 6-8 vehicles with 3+ armour save. What were they smoking when they made that?

 ph34r wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
Would would you rather have?

3 rustalkers, or a Dragoon?
1 kataphron destroyer, or a Dragoon?
8 fulgurites, or 2 Dragoons?
3 breaches, or 2 Dragoons?
5 infiltrators, or 2 Dragoons?

Arguably the destroyer has a role that the Dragoon doesn't eat. But the rest of them ... give me the dragoons.

1. Dragoon
2. Dragoon
3. Dragoons
4. Dragoons
5. I wish infiltrators were actually good because they are so cool, but probably the Dragoons

It just isn't a close call. Half the codex is worse than a dragoon. Everything that is melee or short range is flatly inferior. Melee kastelons were like ... almost sort of competitive back in the index days ... but now with the Doctrina dragoons make everything else look like crap in melee. When are sicarians ever going to match exploding 4s that deal str8, -1, d2. What a weapon profile!

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Silver, I have used Fulgurites as a screen and counter-assault unit to pretty good success. They can't be ignored, which is a boon. I just wish they were 14ppm, so they didn't feel like such an expensive unit that can easily get wiped from shooting. C'est la vie. Once we get any transports at all, they will be golden.

I just feel like I get more mileage from ruststalkers as they are faster and can benefit from cover canticle so they are less vulnerable to shooting. They just seem to work better with admech as it currently exists as far as I've seen, in the same basic role as what you described.

Fulgurites can benefit from cover, depending on the AP. And they are much better for the price. Ruststalkers are absurdly overpriced.

Feel free to tell me how Fulgurites can benefit from cover when 6+/5++

I feel we heading back wards. Spamm fliers cause they are cheat. Ok dragoons are superb won't win solo games.

It ok a good nic big unit cheap -2 blambla . We got at least 6 in any list ok if not more. Can they shoot? Can they work in groups of two roaming all map? They re effective as a big harashing group or screening group ok. We need to play all the game.

Obj secure. Buildings fliers enemy screener etc horde armies.

You need and volume of fire and toughness to survive and range guns and more units. Hence we take Robots nd Onagers. For making specific roles. Anti mass anti tank. Unfortunately those units won't work solo as effective as with support. And that is valid for all armies.

120 point breachers are stock marines. Worse in options better for survival T5! It's not overpriced it has a role as tankish unit. And it's weapon forget arc weapon as it was. You got a str 6 weapon why is it bad? For it's role and obj secure troop slot....
Can camp building ND obj and Dragoons can't even charge them.
Can footslog and tbh it's the only good unit to team with a dominus use melee canticles move shoot infiltrate with dominus use defence gem for relic mission etc. Their role has nothing to do with dragoon. And you are not forced to take it.

Nor it's the plan to use elimination volley for Robots. No the command point are to be used for wrath of mars and Cawl.
Elimination volley was made to be mainly taken as a no Cawl non Robot list.

An easy example Ryz destroyers with one unit of robots etc. Or agripinaa breachers again the same or those ki d of combos. Making. Dominus almost effective as Cawl. And spend cp out side of mars.
I don't want to play broken crap. Nor I LL make a plan to shoot once robots with bs 3+ rerollable and wrath. 5 cp = one time. I don care cause enemy got stratagems as well and can play 6 rounds and most likely will.

Dragoons are over invested in more than 3-4/ group can't move them properly while the gem benefits bigger units. Balistarii can be 6 and benefit from buff but the buff is not so important.

While a group of 6 breachers in an objective will definitely hold a relic with the defence stratagem and perform in melee s well with default 4 attacks each. Obj secure. 130 points vs 120 for 2 Dragoons. And will shoot 2 each then melee 3-4 each.. it's different role but it's not bad troop as T5.

Same goes for snipers. Some do t use them I do. They have won me games are they super cost effective no. But I use them cause it's one of the best snipers in game and for me !

I'm not gonna convince anyone nor I'm trying to. I just said when I make an ad mech battalion. I use find usage for

1*3-6 breachers
1-2*5 snipers omnispex
1*10 vanguard taser tether
And arc rifles team with arc pistol in various forms.
Seems to fill roles for me when I take troops.

10 vanguard Graia in front with enginseer block many things and -1 tough helps. 6 roll not to die can be of use and deny stratgem can save me. While my second stygies breachers can be a perfect screener counter ND small transport etc vehicle killer.
While snipers keep shooting even 30" ranger shots shoot in my lines as antihorde.

I never said better than Robots or Dragoons I said if you don't go that way or you take troops even if you take 3*5 stock rangers try to give them arc rifles . On ranger killed an eldar Titan. In apoca video winter's.

Just saying you can do some thing in lower point games if you don't have 20 dragoon units. 6 robots you don't like the static line etc.

I said i made a list with only 2 robots a big Ruza destroyer vanguard plasma and stygies breachers to use my kataprhons with priests Dragoons etc. Why not with dominus. It's my fun list and it rocks. If destroyers roll good they are superb and with Ryza overcharged and elimination. Volley 3cp can kill anything. Same goes for priests.

Both staff priests and jazz ones. Jazz ones can be. V good screener. If you take solo mars brigade you can use these cheap monkey as a great screener. With wrath or a technomartyr . Great antihorde . Shoots and cc. Both times will contribute. Lucius also works offensively.

Not optimal but surelly working atm. And it's not only one option. Cause if you for example take two knights you LL need cheap units that can do range and melee .
If you ant with one cheap options to screen jazz priests can screen in mass cheap ND get a buff option easy. Etc.

As said beyond the classik dakka Cawl star. Or at least when you need to be out of an imperium soup or wanna utilise knights etc.

Tip : there can be a heavy melee list with knights and ad mech.

Tip2: for me the point reduction seems like a dominus with assault wepons and brechers footsloging even Cawl with destroyers brechers vang Onagers move the board.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Silver, I have used Fulgurites as a screen and counter-assault unit to pretty good success. They can't be ignored, which is a boon. I just wish they were 14ppm, so they didn't feel like such an expensive unit that can easily get wiped from shooting. C'est la vie. Once we get any transports at all, they will be golden.

I just feel like I get more mileage from ruststalkers as they are faster and can benefit from cover canticle so they are less vulnerable to shooting. They just seem to work better with admech as it currently exists as far as I've seen, in the same basic role as what you described.

Fulgurites can benefit from cover, depending on the AP. And they are much better for the price. Ruststalkers are absurdly overpriced.

Feel free to tell me how Fulgurites can benefit from cover when 6+/5++

They benefit from it - doesn't mean their invuln isn't better. Sorry, apparently I was on a pedantry spree yesterday. Just ignore me.

Fw announces a slew of red scorpion releases but nothing in fires...... it’s gotta be just around the corner right?

It’s very possible that these are leaked pages from a test copy of FoC. Sorry for the image degeneration, these are copies of a copy.

I hope so and that part of the delay was to rewrite the whole thing to take place after the Indomitus Crusade, which is new lore and wasn't around when it was announced.

Verviedi you just made a lot of happy people

Cogboys, get hype!

Bought the ork bundle to have a playable army :p /s (kinda)

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Bought the ork bundle to have a playable army :p /s (kinda)

Aren't Orks even worse than AdMech balance-wise ?

Orks are really strong, but they lack a codex. They do have a lot of internal imbalance though. Lots of useless stuff.

For sure, Orks are one of the hardest armies for us to beat. Stopping a Green Tide before they reach your Kastelans is hard. (A competitive Ork list is like 6 Big Gunz units with Kannons, 90 Boyz, 2 Weirdboyz, and one unit of Nobz or Dakka Jetz.)

Suzuteo wrote:
Orks are really strong, but they lack a codex. They do have a lot of internal imbalance though. Lots of useless stuff.

For sure, Orks are one of the hardest armies for us to beat. Stopping a Green Tide before they reach your Kastelans is hard. (A competitive Ork list is like 6 Big Gunz units with Kannons, 90 Boyz, 2 Weirdboyz, and one unit of Nobz or Dakka Jetz.)

6 robots with 12 overcharging plasma destroyers next to cawl using elimination volley wrath of mars could most likely delete all of those boyz in a turn with (from the bots) 96 hits, 64 wounds and 36 mortal wounds. Easily enough to continue deleting another unit by splitfiring.

Well, orks are now the 3rd best army in the game results wise. That's WITHOUT a codex.
First is chaos soup. 2nd is astra militarum soup

Atm guard and orks depend on numbers. Model and dice. But does not seem to be the only viable way. Maybe easier for more players to play but elite armies have a chance.

I believe the game is heading towards. Good balance overall besides Astra militarum but still in a good standing.

I suggest try to play what you like all got a chance better in 8th than any other. And playing first or taking that+1 the new fixes are good enough. It's close enough to have a great impact depending on player skill and strategy on the table. Mke your armies play them it's now more important than ever to be a good strategist.

Even adeptus mechanicus is hard atm to be beaten. We got big mount of dakka maybe not all options but we got more mass Tha. Elite armies with an elittish profile. Where it stand not top tier but you got the tools to be high enough!! Play your armies lots of tricks yet to play!!

With breachers you can go even more elite. On unit of 6 in small detach army can be extremely good . Troop screener.

Well by reading most of the Ork players on this forum their army is worse than playing full Sisters of Silence somehow. Or is it like our pre-CA codex where only a single build was effective ? I keep reading the only competitive Ork list is green tide + Da Jump. Must make for boring games, less boring than AdMech static Cawl gunline but still, just thinking about moving that much models and throwing buckets of dice makes me shiver.

Oh, don't worry. As an owner of AdMech, Orks and Chaos Daemons... Chaos Daemons are the worst off. Which is why they're seeing ZERO tournament play. They're footslogging melee glass cannons without damage. It's disgusting. Most of the index is unuseable
Admech are in the middle. They have some broken stuff and broken combos. However they suffer because of the current meta: quantity > quality.
And Orks are the best non chaos imperium soup army in the game(pre eldar codex, not sure now). They are the king horde in a meta where horde is king. The only reason they aren't the best race - they don't have the soup to fix their weaknesses, IMO.

I dunno, our local best player is running a list with loads of Brimstones, Daemon Princes and a few Thousand Sons with Ahriman (don't remember all the list honestly) and he's been destroying everyone. Smite spam is a nightmare !

SilverAlien wrote:
I'm impressed how pessimistic people are being given the upcoming chapter approved price cuts. We've now got cheaper sources of everything.

Our basic infantry are solid at 7/8 points, we don't have the bodies of IG, but at only 35/40 points for a basic squad they are still great. For a 3 point upcharge you get rangers instead of guardsmen, with a better gun, bs, armor save, plus the canticles and 5 man unit to make getting cover much easier than an IG squad, and while we have the same leadership keeping them at 5 man units means we are less likely to take significant morale losses. Oh and our sarge gets a rifle, which is minor but nice. At 35 points for a basic unit it's also amongst the cheapest troop filler in the game, only Gretchen and Brimstones can be had for less at 30 points for a basic unit.

I know people are upset about transports still, but really why? Infiltrators are now cheap enough to be compareable to a hypothetical set of corpus priests in a transport, and the now cheaper destroyers have a similar relationship to plasma vanguard. I get if it's an aesthetic thing, but it's not going to actually make the army better, unless it happens to be a particularly shooty transport. I just don't really see the appeal balance wise, unless you are desperate to use fulgerites/rustalkers and hate Stygies.

I maintain our codex wasn't as bad as people claimed balance wise (externally at least, internally was more of an issue) and chapter approved looks to be tweaking those issues as well.

I agree, dakka suffers far too much from the notion that if something is .00002% less effective in a vacuum compared to another unit it's "totally useless garbage. Arrrggggg!" Probably because tourney players are all about winning at the list building stage and hoping luck of the draw they go up against more armies they hard counter than hard counter them, the game part is auto-resolve with no tactics.
But, that being said, I still think it would be nice to have a transport because 40k being objective based mobility is super important. Even just an errata that says they can take chimeras would perfectly round out the army.

 Aaranis wrote:
I dunno, our local best player is running a list with loads of Brimstones, Daemon Princes and a few Thousand Sons with Ahriman (don't remember all the list honestly) and he's been destroying everyone. Smite spam is a nightmare !

Well yes, but that's not a chaos daemons army. That's the sole broken unit - brimstones. DPs are actually better in Death Guard.
A proper chaos daemon army is:
a greater deamon - they all suck and are overpriced by 60-120 points.
A bunch of troops - deamonettes, bloodletters, pink horrors just die like flies and need 3 turns to get anywhere. Plaguebearers are pretty durable but need 4 turns...
some squads of elites,fast attack - pretty much every elite is overpriced trash that, again, dies like a fly.
No ranged support at all. Skull cannon costs 100 but should cost 10 if only looking at the damage it deals. Soul Grinders are beyond awful. And that's, IIRC, all 19''+ they have. Yeah... Sucks real bad.

But if you just go changeling, brimstones, characters spam and Magnus - sure you'll win. But you still need ranged support for ITC missions. Can't wait for the codex...

 kastelen wrote:

6 robots with 12 overcharging plasma destroyers next to cawl using elimination volley wrath of mars could most likely delete all of those boyz in a turn with (from the bots) 96 hits, 64 wounds and 36 mortal wounds. Easily enough to continue deleting another unit by splitfiring.

Does anyone run that army? Sounds like an easy way to lose to Razorback or Lascannon spam.

Anyhow, Da Jump and Ere We Go is definitely effective. The win rates speak for themselves.