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You can still use them. 4 fit in a Chimera.

i'm sorry did i miss people comparing the dragoons to bullgryns.... i mean bullgryns aren't bad. but they're kind of in that same "okay" zone dragoons are. also if you're saying dragoons are good CC but not against other CC units and are just good anti tank... and then turn around and glow about how good neutronagers are.... why not just take more neutronagers or drop them for more dragoons? I mean i can see an argument for dropping the neutronagers and going with dragoons in a stygies brigrade.

hell with the drop in points. do dragoons backed up with a pair of battalions


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hell vanguard -1 T would come in handy in unison with the dragoons. doesn't work on vehicles but it'll work on monsters and T5 infantry

I've been wondering for a bit if Eradication Beamer Onagers are now cheap enough to justify their inclusion. Only 25 points cheaper than the Neutron onager, but with the same survivability, and an alright weapon.

 ph34r wrote:
I've been wondering for a bit if Eradication Beamer Onagers are now cheap enough to justify their inclusion. Only 25 points cheaper than the Neutron onager, but with the same survivability, and an alright weapon.

i mean that's like what, 2 dragoons now? it's got a healthy chunk of wounds, a good invuln, could litter the field with them. by shear weight of mass they'd be hard to shift. But thats still putting a lot of wounds in single basket.

flip side is the auto blow up strategem on those is nice, the damage is better than dragoons and they have more range. Not to mention an actual gun.

IDK might be worth a shot. I'm not volunteering to be test subject 1 though.

gendoikari87 wrote:
i'm sorry did i miss people comparing the dragoons to bullgryns.... i mean bullgryns aren't bad. but they're kind of in that same "okay" zone dragoons are. also if you're saying dragoons are good CC but not against other CC units and are just good anti tank... and then turn around and glow about how good neutronagers are.... why not just take more neutronagers or drop them for more dragoons? I mean i can see an argument for dropping the neutronagers and going with dragoons in a stygies brigrade.

hell with the drop in points. do dragoons backed up with a pair of battalions


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hell vanguard -1 T would come in handy in unison with the dragoons. doesn't work on vehicles but it'll work on monsters and T5 infantry

Again, if you think they're just "okay," please share what you think are the top 5 CC options for Imperium.

Saint celestine, rowboat and cawl probably. Some space wolves and GK options are also probably pretty good for their points.

 kastelen wrote:
Saint celestine, rowboat and cawl probably. Some space wolves and GK options are also probably pretty good for their points.

and now BA all just get +1 to wound. I actually wouldn't be surprised if your bog standard BA tactical turned out to be pretty good. Death company are like 20 points with chainsword pistol and Jump pack get three attacks hitting and wounding most things on 3... so good night irene.

also for half that. Blood angels scouts. 2 attacks a piece. same profile, with a 4+ save. how insane is that?

I mean imperium encompasses all marines, inquisition, custodes and assassins. That's a long list of really good CC units before you even start getting to ogryns and Dragoons.

Hooray for admech buffs. Aka smite nerf

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Hooray for admech buffs. Aka smite nerf

Just need an adjustment the other incredibly over powerful under pointed 40k ability in “fly”.

At this point I think admech can take most lists on equal or better footing if you run the normal meta units of Cawl / Robots / Dragoons / Neutronagers. The template all firepower admech list can hang with any other list in the game. We have horde killing from the robots, mortals from the robots, non-LOS from basilisk, and anti-modifier/anti-armor save from the neutronagers, and dragoons can provide a take all comers melee option that threatens everything in the game.

What has me worried is the dark reaper spam. Nothing in the game can erase dragoons like dark reapers.

Also, having run celestine many times, no, she is not at all comparable to a stack of dragoons. She is faster and can pick easy targets much more easily, but she she never does as much damage as the dragoon stack. She has 6 swings with no rerolls on a 2+ that are str7, -3, 2dam. That is usually 5 hits and she wounds a whole lot of hard targets on 4s. EDIT: I am considering not even worrying about the dark reaper list and just conceding if I run into it. It is like the 45 warp spider list from 2 years ago.

kastelen wrote:Saint celestine, rowboat and cawl probably. Some space wolves and GK options are also probably pretty good for their points.

Unique characters aren't scalable at all. And I actually am pretty sure 4 Dragoons with CDI outperform Celestine and 2 BFFs, mostly because the difference between Ardent Blade and Power Swords makes for inconsistencies in usage. Until Space Wolves get a codex, they're pretty mediocre. GKs are probably the only codex that has had it worse than us.

gendoikari87 wrote:and now BA all just get +1 to wound. I actually wouldn't be surprised if your bog standard BA tactical turned out to be pretty good. Death company are like 20 points with chainsword pistol and Jump pack get three attacks hitting and wounding most things on 3... so good night irene.

also for half that. Blood angels scouts. 2 attacks a piece. same profile, with a 4+ save. how insane is that?

I mean imperium encompasses all marines, inquisition, custodes and assassins. That's a long list of really good CC units before you even start getting to ogryns and Dragoons.

Technically, we don't have the BA codex yet. I will say that it looks pretty good for an assault-focused army, but I would have to wait and see.

Dragoons with CDI are way better than Tactical Marines and Custodes. The Inquisition options were never good, aside from their goons, which were a shooty option that got nerfed. Eversors are good, but they have a different role than Dragoons.

Sorry - what was the smite nerf?

gendoikari87 wrote:
i'm sorry did i miss people comparing the dragoons to bullgryns.... i mean bullgryns aren't bad. but they're kind of in that same "okay" zone dragoons are. also if you're saying dragoons are good CC but not against other CC units and are just good anti tank... and then turn around and glow about how good neutronagers are.... why not just take more neutronagers or drop them for more dragoons? I mean i can see an argument for dropping the neutronagers and going with dragoons in a stygies brigrade.

hell with the drop in points. do dragoons backed up with a pair of battalions


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hell vanguard -1 T would come in handy in unison with the dragoons. doesn't work on vehicles but it'll work on monsters and T5 infantry

I think you really can't compare a neutron onager with Dragoons.
The neutron got one job: Kill high wound high toughness stuff, whereas the dragoon can threaten pretty much every unit through sheer number of attacks (that's also what makes them good at anti tank, cause they can compensate ap -1 by number of attacks)

I'm not saying the neutron onager isn't great, it's a superb tank hunter. You really just can't compare both imo.

Wulfey wrote:

Also, having run celestine many times, no, she is not at all comparable to a stack of dragoons. She is faster and can pick easy targets much more easily, but she she never does as much damage as the dragoon stack. She has 6 swings with no rerolls on a 2+ that are str7, -3, 2dam. That is usually 5 hits and she wounds a whole lot of hard targets on 4s. EDIT: I am considering not even worrying about the dark reaper list and just conceding if I run into it. It is like the 45 warp spider list from 2 years ago.

She also has AOF which gives her roughly 15 attacks if you're using them all as melee which is pretty amazing.

 Sledgio wrote:
Sorry - what was the smite nerf?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/12/15/the-future-of-faqs-and-chapter-approved-dec-15gw-homepage-post-2/

PSYCHIC FOCUS
With the exception of Smite, each psychic power can be attempted only once per turn, rather than once per psyker per turn. In addition, subtract 1 from the result of any psychic test taken when attempting to manifest Smite for each other attempt (whether successful or not) that has been made to manifest Smite during this Psychic phase. For example, if a psyker attempts to manifest Smite during a Psychic phase in which two other psykers have already attempted to manifest Smite, then you would subtract 2 from the result of the psychic test.

It also nerfed Da Jump and those Eldar tricks.

How did it nerf Da Jump?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
How did it nerf Da Jump?

You can only do it once per turn now.

Which is how it was always like...

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Which is how it was always like...

No. Before, each Weirdboy can manifest Da Jump once per turn. Now, only one Weirdboy can manifest Da Jump once per turn.

Might want to reread the current rule, dude. It was always "can only try every spell once". No idea what rulebook you've been playing with lol


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Smite is the only thing that changed

Is this a good strategy; Get 10 man unit of vanguard with the data tether and just carbines and maybe a pistol. Their forge world doesn't matter but metallica works well. Protector doctrina imperative and 30 shots will automatically hit (If the a roll of 1 always fails rule doesn't exist like I think it does). If you're using mars combine it with wrath of mars to get on average about 5 mortal wounds per turn. Not as good as dakkabots but still pretty sold I think. With how cheap vanguard are ATM and protector doctrina imperative only costing 1 CP I think it's pretty good but I don't play competitively.

 kastelen wrote:
Is this a good strategy; Get 10 man unit of vanguard with the data tether and just carbines and maybe a pistol. Their forge world doesn't matter but metallica works well. Protector doctrina imperative and 30 shots will automatically hit (If the a roll of 1 always fails rule doesn't exist like I think it does). If you're using mars combine it with wrath of mars to get on average about 5 mortal wounds per turn. Not as good as dakkabots but still pretty sold I think. With how cheap vanguard are ATM and protector doctrina imperative only costing 1 CP I think it's pretty good but I don't play competitively.

cant combine the two stratagems in the same phase

Why can't you combine them?

Also, a roll of 1 always fails

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Might want to reread the current rule, dude. It was always "can only try every spell once". No idea what rulebook you've been playing with lol


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Smite is the only thing that changed

You are both correct. Matched play is once per power per turn. open play was once per power per psyker per turn.

No, only I am correct because open play doesn't exist :p :p :p
aka I doubt he plays open play

The Psychic Focus rule is Matched Play only, so the new rule is still specific to that style of play. Da Jump will still be spammed mercilessly in open and narrative.

Hey folks,
so atm I'm building a combined force of AdMech and Imperial Guard, with loads of Guardsman as canonfodder some skitarii and all of this backed up by some heavy hitters.

Regarding those heavy hitters: I'm not quite sure whether I should include some Dunecrawlers or Leman Russes (talking about the Battle Tank / conqueror)....

So yeah what's your opinion on both of those "tanks)?

 lash92 wrote:
Hey folks,
so atm I'm building a combined force of AdMech and Imperial Guard, with loads of Guardsman as canonfodder some skitarii and all of this backed up by some heavy hitters.

Regarding those heavy hitters: I'm not quite sure whether I should include some Dunecrawlers or Leman Russes (talking about the Battle Tank / conqueror)....

So yeah what's your opinion on both of those "tanks)?

point for point the battle tank slightly edges out neutronager in my book. but it depends on how you build it what you're using it for ect. Battle tank is however FAR more customizeable and versatile.

gendoikari87 wrote:


point for point the battle tank slightly edges out neutronager in my book. but it depends on how you build it what you're using it for ect. Battle tank is however FAR more customizeable and versatile.

Im looking for something to threaten my opponents big things, be it other tanks or monsters etc.
The thing with the Onager is it´s low number of shots. While a BC can be ok at firing at MEQ or TEQ a Neutron Onager is pretty much a waste (imo).
So thats whats holding me down atm.
But on the other hand a Crawler is also more durable I guess?

Crawler also is less likely to be screwed over by the more and more common -1 to hit abilities. Which the onager can take as well, which means onagers can generally outshoot IG tanks head to head.