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2017/12/17 20:45:23
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
Icarus is sub-optimal against tanks, alright against infantry, decent against light vehicles and very good against things with "fly" (especially if they aren't flyers).
It's a pretty solid choice, unless you're up against a few specific armies (and amazing if you're up against certain others).
2017/12/17 22:02:04
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
SilverAlien wrote: Crawler also is less likely to be screwed over by the more and more common -1 to hit abilities. Which the onager can take as well, which means onagers can generally outshoot IG tanks head to head.
actually cadians can get +1 to hit for the whole army with 2cp.
as for threats. it really depends. a single neutron laser is certainly a threat. a fully kitted out plasmacutioner with +1 to hit rerolling 1's and rerolling turret dice for no of shots. is also a major threat.
as was said the battlecannon isn't as impressive as the neutron, but it's 2d6 shots a turn vs 1d3, and that makes a difference against 2W and 1W heavy infantry Neutrons are all but usless against MEQ they're hard line anti tank. but a plasmacutioner is better per point at anti tank than a neutronager and also far superior against infantry of ALL types.
SilverAlien wrote: Crawler also is less likely to be screwed over by the more and more common -1 to hit abilities. Which the onager can take as well, which means onagers can generally outshoot IG tanks head to head.
actually cadians can get +1 to hit for the whole army with 2cp.
as for threats. it really depends. a single neutron laser is certainly a threat. a fully kitted out plasmacutioner with +1 to hit rerolling 1's and rerolling turret dice for no of shots. is also a major threat.
as was said the battlecannon isn't as impressive as the neutron, but it's 2d6 shots a turn vs 1d3, and that makes a difference against 2W and 1W heavy infantry Neutrons are all but usless against MEQ they're hard line anti tank. but a plasmacutioner is better per point at anti tank than a neutronager and also far superior against infantry of ALL types.
To be fair, you have to first of all score an unsaved wound on a model/unit and then you get +1 to hit against only that unit.
It´s really the versatillity of the Russ vs greater survival chances of the Crawler for me. (trust me, despite T8, W12 russes are dying pretty quickly to dedicated anti tank high AP)
2017/12/18 00:50:08
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
true the downside is you have to get the wound and it's only against that unit. the upside is it works on every cadian unit on the board that round. which means it can hit multiple units. so say like six infantry units firing lascannons now at BS3 plus a plasmacutioner.
it's a great way to nuke any single unit that MUST DIE THAT TURN. For instance Magnus.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 00:51:44
rvd1ofakind wrote: Might want to reread the current rule, dude. It was always "can only try every spell once". No idea what rulebook you've been playing with lol
Automatically Appended Next Post: Smite is the only thing that changed
I feel incredibly dumb now. Haha. There is actually a formal rule on P215. I always thought that the "one attempt per turn" thing was an informal rule.
It's funny how it has never come up for me in all this time though. I mean, I don't use psykers, so I never had an opportunity to be corrected. And everyone else who did play Psykers just spammed Smite, which seemed optimal, so I never questioned it.
gendoikari87 wrote: You are both correct. Matched play is once per power per turn. open play was once per power per psyker per turn.
Nope. I was totally wrong.
rvd1ofakind wrote: No, only I am correct because open play doesn't exist :p :p :p aka I doubt he plays open play
lash92 wrote: Hey folks, so atm I'm building a combined force of AdMech and Imperial Guard, with loads of Guardsman as canonfodder some skitarii and all of this backed up by some heavy hitters.
Regarding those heavy hitters: I'm not quite sure whether I should include some Dunecrawlers or Leman Russes (talking about the Battle Tank / conqueror)....
So yeah what's your opinion on both of those "tanks)?
point for point the battle tank slightly edges out neutronager in my book. but it depends on how you build it what you're using it for ect. Battle tank is however FAR more customizeable and versatile.
Lemons don't play nice with AdMech because AdMech often build around Cawl + 5-6 Kastelans, which is already pricey. Having to invest in Pask or a Tank Commander is inefficient; might as well bring the tanks already supported by your HQ. Basilisks are really strong though. You can make them Cadian since they get the Catachan bonus already. Just park them in the backfield to deny deep strike and pummel units that try to hide from your Kastelans.
lash92 wrote: Is the Icarus Array worth it? Thought about maybe adding two Neutrons and one Icaurus.
Icarus Crawlers sort of fill the same role as Kastelan Robots; they kill mid-toughness and below infantry and Daemon Primarchs. The difference being that they have 48" range, can move and shoot, and have a bonus against Fly.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 02:10:50
2017/12/18 03:45:00
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
lash92 wrote: Hey folks,
so atm I'm building a combined force of AdMech and Imperial Guard, with loads of Guardsman as canonfodder some skitarii and all of this backed up by some heavy hitters.
Regarding those heavy hitters: I'm not quite sure whether I should include some Dunecrawlers or Leman Russes (talking about the Battle Tank / conqueror)....
So yeah what's your opinion on both of those "tanks)?
Both are good at different things.
Use Crawlers giant beam of death to direct fire just about anything dead. Two of these suckers have little trouble killing a land raider over a few turns. The anti air doodle, is excellent. Even with its penalties to shooting non air things it large number of high strength shots make it a threat to just about anything. Though best used to kill non dedicated flyers such as stuff on discs or jump unit with fly keyword.
Leman Russ is a workhorse. Tough, lots of wounds and a huge variety of weapons it can take. If you're clever you can actually get most of the weapons out of a single box (magnatize or make a work around) and you can hotswap all your weapons. Lemon Russ is NEVER a bad choice. Just about all of its guns are good and its so flexible you can build it to do just about anything.
8th Overhaul!
Over 18,000 SM
Over 7000 Tyranids
About 3000 Genestealer cult
About 6000 IG
About 2500 Chaos
About 5000 Skitarii/Admech *Current focus
About 3000 Deamons
2 Imperial Knigts... Soon to be a third
2017/12/18 09:42:48
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
Lemons don't play nice with AdMech because AdMech often build around Cawl + 5-6 Kastelans, which is already pricey. Having to invest in Pask or a Tank Commander is inefficient; might as well bring the tanks already supported by your HQ. Basilisks are really strong though. You can make them Cadian since they get the Catachan bonus already. Just park them in the backfield to deny deep strike and pummel units that try to hide from your Kastelans.
Good points about the Basilisks, have to try some of those out.
Tbh I haven´t played Cawl + Robots yet, just some Stygies, cause I´m kind of deterred of this complete stationary playstyle. (we use lots of LOS blocking terrain and we play according to German tournament rules, i.e. you play an Eternal War and Maelstrom at the same time)
So how do you effectively play the objective game?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 09:43:05
2017/12/18 10:40:48
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
Lemons don't play nice with AdMech because AdMech often build around Cawl + 5-6 Kastelans, which is already pricey. Having to invest in Pask or a Tank Commander is inefficient; might as well bring the tanks already supported by your HQ. Basilisks are really strong though. You can make them Cadian since they get the Catachan bonus already. Just park them in the backfield to deny deep strike and pummel units that try to hide from your Kastelans.
Good points about the Basilisks, have to try some of those out.
Tbh I haven´t played Cawl + Robots yet, just some Stygies, cause I´m kind of deterred of this complete stationary playstyle. (we use lots of LOS blocking terrain and we play according to German tournament rules, i.e. you play an Eternal War and Maelstrom at the same time)
So how do you effectively play the objective game?
Usually, you just move your Kastelans in range of your opponent's objectives. Force them to come into range. If you need something to grab objectives, you can advance Skitarii or use Dragoons; let your artillery clear the objective for them. But of course, it depends based on deployment zones, your opponent's army, etc. Sometimes, you just won't win the objective game, and your strategy then is to table your opponent. Sometimes, objectives don't matter, and you should just castle up and react.
Here are some concepts that most lists in this thread have found useful:
1) Cawlstar: Cawl and 5-6 Kastelans are anti-everything, especially characters and infantry.
2) Crawlers: Neutron are anti-tank that covers Cawlstar's weakness to Lascannons and Missiles. Icarus complement Ballistarii if you want to run Stygies.
3) Screen: Guardsmen with CC recycling, Skitarii, or MAYBE Electro-Priests. Deploy in >3" layers against assault armies, spread them wide against deep striking armies. These guys are just here to create distance.
4) Goondozer: Take 4 or 6 Dragoons per unit; Dragoons are longer than 3", so you have a pile-in issue for 6 Dragoons if they are moving single-file. Use CDI and blow up one tank per turn. Always make these Stygies, and always deploy them last to make your opponent deploy for Infiltrate.
5) Basilisks/Earthshakers: Complements the Crawlers and Cawlstar by forcing your opponent out of their hiding places. Makes tabling much more viable.
6) Ballistarii: Take a loner or pair for fire support. Take 6 Ballistarii per unit if you go Stygies. CPI and Dominus make them really solid shooters; they can replace a Crawler very easily.
My list:
Spoiler:
Cadian Battalion Detachment - 522
HQ - 60 1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist
1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila
5+ invuln save is easily overlooked but pretty legit on the Onager... and recently caused my Shadowsword playing opponent to get super salty about him taking 3 turns to kill it. He assumed it would evaporate in T1 but nope! 33% chance of ignoring your 2D6 damage.
TO of Death Before Dishonour - A Warhammer 40k Tournament with a focus on great battles between well painted, thematic armies on tables with full terrain.
Silentz wrote: 5+ invuln save is easily overlooked but pretty legit on the Onager... and recently caused my Shadowsword playing opponent to get super salty about him taking 3 turns to kill it. He assumed it would evaporate in T1 but nope! 33% chance of ignoring your 2D6 damage.
You get to reroll if you have a buddy too.
2017/12/18 11:09:35
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
Suzuteo wrote:
Usually, you just move your Kastelans in range of your opponent's objectives. Force them to come into range. If you need something to grab objectives, you can advance Skitarii or use Dragoons; let your artillery clear the objective for them. But of course, it depends based on deployment zones, your opponent's army, etc. Sometimes, you just won't win the objective game, and your strategy then is to table your opponent. Sometimes, objectives don't matter, and you should just castle up and react.
Here are some concepts that most lists in this thread have found useful:
1) Cawlstar: Cawl and 5-6 Kastelans are anti-everything, especially characters and infantry.
2) Crawlers: Neutron are anti-tank that covers Cawlstar's weakness to Lascannons and Missiles. Icarus complement Ballistarii if you want to run Stygies.
3) Screen: Guardsmen with CC recycling, Skitarii, or MAYBE Electro-Priests. Deploy in >3" layers against assault armies, spread them wide against deep striking armies. These guys are just here to create distance.
4) Goondozer: Take 4 or 6 Dragoons per unit; Dragoons are longer than 3", so you have a pile-in issue for 6 Dragoons if they are moving single-file. Use CDI and blow up one tank per turn. Always make these Stygies, and always deploy them last to make your opponent deploy for Infiltrate.
5) Basilisks/Earthshakers: Complements the Crawlers and Cawlstar by forcing your opponent out of their hiding places. Makes tabling much more viable.
6) Ballistarii: Take a loner or pair for fire support. Take 6 Ballistarii per unit if you go Stygies. CPI and Dominus make them really solid shooters; they can replace a Crawler very easily.
My list:
Spoiler:
Cadian Battalion Detachment - 522
HQ - 60 1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist
1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila
Heavy Support - 324 3x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 1070
HQ - 240 1x Belisarius Cawl
Heavy Support - 830 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
5x Kastelan Robots - 3x Heavy Phosphor Blasters
Stygies VIII Auxiliary Detachment - 408
Fast Attack - 408 6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Total: 2000 points 6 Command Points
Thanks for the input!
3) Electro Priest as a Screen? Seems pretty expensive for that purpose.
Silentz wrote:5+ invuln save is easily overlooked but pretty legit on the Onager... and recently caused my Shadowsword playing opponent to get super salty about him taking 3 turns to kill it. He assumed it would evaporate in T1 but nope! 33% chance of ignoring your 2D6 damage.
Haven´t overlocked it, in fact I wrote about this a few posts ago, because a Russ isn´t really that durable imo.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 13:05:39
2017/12/18 12:49:35
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
Silentz wrote: 5+ invuln save is easily overlooked but pretty legit on the Onager... and recently caused my Shadowsword playing opponent to get super salty about him taking 3 turns to kill it. He assumed it would evaporate in T1 but nope! 33% chance of ignoring your 2D6 damage.
You get to reroll if you have a buddy too.
Sadly, the re-roll is only for 1's. Really not sure why GW couldn't have left it how it was pre-8th. A 4++ on our Crawlers would be insane.
No. Before, each Weirdboy can manifest Da Jump once per turn. Now, only one Weirdboy can manifest Da Jump once per turn.
it boggles my mind how many people think the first part of the new rule is a change when they printed the "new" and "current" psychic focus rules right next to one another and that first line in new PF is word for word identical with the first and only line in the current rule.
Currently in matched play you can only attempt each power one time per phase.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2017/12/18 19:15:52
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
No. Before, each Weirdboy can manifest Da Jump once per turn. Now, only one Weirdboy can manifest Da Jump once per turn.
it boggles my mind how many people think the first part of the new rule is a change when they printed the "new" and "current" psychic focus rules right next to one another and that first line in new PF is word for word identical with the first and only line in the current rule.
Currently in matched play you can only attempt each power one time per phase.
Er... yeah, I noted that I was wrong. Look up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 19:16:38
2017/12/18 19:43:19
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
lash92 wrote: Hey folks, so atm I'm building a combined force of AdMech and Imperial Guard, with loads of Guardsman as canonfodder some skitarii and all of this backed up by some heavy hitters.
Regarding those heavy hitters: I'm not quite sure whether I should include some Dunecrawlers or Leman Russes (talking about the Battle Tank / conqueror)....
So yeah what's your opinion on both of those "tanks)?
I think the neutron crawler is out and out better. It gets better saves due to the 5++ and more consistently gets cover saves from shroudpsalm. It effectively more mobile due to not taking the penalty from moving and shooting. You have better repair options with the crawler. The neutron laser profile is generally better than anything on the leman russ, except for the all lascannon LemanRuss Annihilator forgeworld variant, which is pretty decent. The annihilator is 170 points for 2x turret lascannons and a hvbolter in the hull. Don't bother with any of the other upgrades since they don't shoot twice and take heavy movement penalties. But that is 30 more points than a neutronager for 4 lascannon shots at BS4, possibly rerolling, whereas a MARS neutronager is expected 2 neutron shots at BS3 with full rerolls and possibly +2 to hit rolls. Every other leman russ is just inferior to the neutronager. Their weapons are either too short range or too unreliable or subject to a rotten 5+ to hit with trouble getting rerolls.
EDIT: IMO, there is nothing that a leman russ provides to a mixed admech list that a neutronager can't provide better. Give me a neutronager and 30-40 points of troops every time over the annihilator. And the annihilator is the only variant that is even close to the neutronager. As an admech/AM mixer myself, I think a 108 point basilisk and 40 points of guardsmen provide a lot more utility to an admech list than the lemanrusses. We need non-LOS firepower and screen bodies much more than we need more krak-missile style shots.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 20:41:20
2017/12/18 20:59:39
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
Guys, PSA, point for point the leman russ kicks the neutronagers butt as anti tank. here's the math. Trans is transport T7 3+, tank is T8 3+ LR is land raider T8 2+.
as you can see the plasmacutioner is a full 25% more efficient. Ignore the battlecannon results, had to make room in the calculations sheet for shotguns. so that's without the battlecannon there.
Edit: there we go updated to correct and simplify. all numbers are point per wound inflicted I.e. Wound inflicted per turn on average divided by the point cost of the model.
also i have the shadowswords data if anyone wants it. it really outclasses everything but it's still just nuking a single target.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 21:13:14
gendoikari87 wrote: Guys, PSA, point for point the leman russ kicks the neutronagers butt as anti tank. here's the math. Trans is transport T7 3+, tank is T8 3+ LR is land raider T8 2+.
as you can see the plasmacutioner is a full 25% more efficient. Ignore the battlecannon results, had to make room in the calculations sheet for shotguns. so that's without the battlecannon there.
Edit: there we go updated to correct and simplify. all numbers are point per wound inflicted I.e. Wound inflicted per turn on average divided by the point cost of the model.
also i have the shadowswords data if anyone wants it. it really outclasses everything but it's still just nuking a single target.
I don't really buy it. Points in a vacuum are useful to a point. 5++ makes a big difference. Plus, our improved BS. Plascutioner also as the mortal wound drawback. We do consistent damage too thanks to the Neutron special rules vs just 1-2 damage per shot from the Plascutioner.
A better comparison for role also may be the FW Vanquisher, btw.
The FW Vanquisher is garbage. The regular battletank russ outperforms every anti-tank Russ platform except for the Annihilator against tanks.
THAT SAID: I can't speak highly enough of the neutron onager. Three of them (with a cawl bubble) have one-shotted one of my Baneblades in a single shooting phase before.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 21:21:28
2017/12/18 21:26:01
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
Unit1126PLL wrote: The FW Vanquisher is garbage. The regular battletank russ outperforms every anti-tank Russ platform except for the Annihilator against tanks.
THAT SAID:
I can't speak highly enough of the neutron onager. Three of them (with a cawl bubble) have one-shotted one of my Baneblades in a single shooting phase before.
Two (if it doesn't move) S8 -3 D6 damage shots that can roll 2 dice when inflicting damage (discarding lowest) and can shoot at 3+ to-hit (if it didn't move) and re-roll any hits (via Co-Axial) is actually pretty good as a comparison to our Neutronager.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 21:26:25
Unit1126PLL wrote: The FW Vanquisher is garbage. The regular battletank russ outperforms every anti-tank Russ platform except for the Annihilator against tanks.
THAT SAID:
I can't speak highly enough of the neutron onager. Three of them (with a cawl bubble) have one-shotted one of my Baneblades in a single shooting phase before.
Two (if it doesn't move) S8 -3 D6 damage shots that can roll 2 dice when inflicting damage (discarding lowest) and can shoot at 3+ to-hit (if it didn't move) and re-roll any hits (via Co-Axial) is actually pretty good as a comparison to our Neutronager.
Vs. one of my Baneblades:
LRBT Vanquisher:
2 shots, 1.67 hits, .83 wounds, (x4.5 damage for 2d6/highest) = 3.76 wounds done to my baneblade per shooting phase.
Neutron Onager:
2 shots, 1.33 hits, .89 wounds, (x 4.5 damage for 1d6 min 3) = 4.1 wounds done to my baneblade per shooting phase.
And the Onager can move while doing it. And benefit from Canticles, which help it far more than Regimental Traits. And benefit from Forge World Dogmas (my Baneblade is -1 to hit it back, for example), and benefit from Cawl re-rolls, and can be repaired by the Tech-Priest Dominus without requiring an Enginseer, and has an invuln save for a >16% increase in durability that is always on (T8 is only a 16% increase in durability and only sometimes... e.g. it is useless against lascannons).
2017/12/18 21:46:07
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
3) Electro Priest as a Screen? Seems pretty expensive for that purpose.
I personally have not tried it. (I don't own any.) But people report that a single unit can be a decent counter-charger.
They are good for that almost exclusively. I wouldn't use them as my first line screen, that is for sure.
Sure that's what guardsman are made for ;-)
Btw are we talking about the shooty or the punchy version? And what unitsize?
Wulfey wrote:
EDIT: IMO, there is nothing that a leman russ provides to a mixed admech list that a neutronager can't provide better. Give me a neutronager and 30-40 points of troops every time over the annihilator. And the annihilator is the only variant that is even close to the neutronager. As an admech/AM mixer myself, I think a 108 point basilisk and 40 points of guardsmen provide a lot more utility to an admech list than the lemanrusses. We need non-LOS firepower and screen bodies much more than we need more krak-missile style shots.
How are you running your mixed force? I'm still struggling a little bit with finding a good concept for my force. (Doesn't need to be mega competitive, semi-competitive is ok)
Maybe something like a infantry based force, with loads of Guardsman as a screen or to flood the enemy. Backed up by some skitarii infantry and heavy hitters like the dunecrawler.
Not sure yet.
2017/12/18 22:01:04
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
Lemons are better if you're attaching them to Guard. But since we already take Cawl, we should take Crawlers because they get the force multiplier. Makes them a lot more point efficient once you factor in the need for a Punisher Pask or BC Tank Commander.
2017/12/18 22:31:43
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
How are you running your mixed force? I'm still struggling a little bit with finding a good concept for my force. (Doesn't need to be mega competitive, semi-competitive is ok)
Maybe something like a infantry based force, with loads of Guardsman as a screen or to flood the enemy. Backed up by some skitarii infantry and heavy hitters like the dunecrawler. Not sure yet.
There are a few basic ways. I think way (1) helps all imaginable admech lists. That last 500 points in admech doesn't scale well due to CP limitations. Admech has the best line of sight shooting on a point for point basis in the game from Cawl+WrathofMars+Dakkabots. So you are looking for screen, CP, and non-LOS support.
(1) CADIA - CP and LOS battalion [~504 points] 2x Company Commander (60) - take 5+ refunding CPWLT and either Kurov's or Relic of Lost Cadia 3x10 Guardsmen (120) - take mortars if you can, these are the front rank that do the dying 3x1 or 1x3 Basilisks (324) - shoot at things the neutrons can't see
(2) CADIA - CP and screen Brigade [~950 points] 3x company commanders 3x astropaths (still good psykers for 30 points) 3x scout sentinels with flamers (use scout move to push back deepstrikers) 6x10 guardsment (mortars are good upgrades here) 3x1 Basilisks (non LOS support, consider more mortar squads here)
The admech section should be as many Neutronagers as you have with either (1) Cawl + Robots or (2) Deepstriking Lucius plasma teams that you feed CP
EDIT2: I think that the other big competitive list for admech besides the obvious template one is something that masses deepstrike with Lucius and (2) CADIA brigade. That CADIA brigade lets you keep even your onagers off the table for the first turn, which is a huge advantage.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 22:48:38
2017/12/18 22:57:31
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
gendoikari87 wrote: Guys, PSA, point for point the leman russ kicks the neutronagers butt as anti tank. here's the math. Trans is transport T7 3+, tank is T8 3+ LR is land raider T8 2+.
as you can see the plasmacutioner is a full 25% more efficient. Ignore the battlecannon results, had to make room in the calculations sheet for shotguns. so that's without the battlecannon there.
Edit: there we go updated to correct and simplify. all numbers are point per wound inflicted I.e. Wound inflicted per turn on average divided by the point cost of the model.
also i have the shadowswords data if anyone wants it. it really outclasses everything but it's still just nuking a single target.
I don't really buy it. Points in a vacuum are useful to a point. 5++ makes a big difference. Plus, our improved BS. Plascutioner also as the mortal wound drawback. We do consistent damage too thanks to the Neutron special rules vs just 1-2 damage per shot from the Plascutioner.
A better comparison for role also may be the FW Vanquisher, btw.
Vanquisher is really hot garbage FW version or not and I'll take the versatility the russ brings over the 5++ of the neutronager any day. Neutronagers aren't really threats to MEQ or GEQ, a Battlecannon russ with some nice sponsons, that'll threaten literally anything on the board.
Unit1126PLL wrote: The FW Vanquisher is garbage. The regular battletank russ outperforms every anti-tank Russ platform except for the Annihilator against tanks.
THAT SAID:
I can't speak highly enough of the neutron onager. Three of them (with a cawl bubble) have one-shotted one of my Baneblades in a single shooting phase before.
Two (if it doesn't move) S8 -3 D6 damage shots that can roll 2 dice when inflicting damage (discarding lowest) and can shoot at 3+ to-hit (if it didn't move) and re-roll any hits (via Co-Axial) is actually pretty good as a comparison to our Neutronager.
problem is there's just no comparing the vanquishers 2 shots even at double the damage and better AP to 2D6 shots from a cheap ol Russ. The difference in damage is negligible (with the FW version because of the BS Buff) but 2D6 shots vs 2 makes a huge difference when talking versatility.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 23:05:33
How are you running your mixed force? I'm still struggling a little bit with finding a good concept for my force. (Doesn't need to be mega competitive, semi-competitive is ok)
Maybe something like a infantry based force, with loads of Guardsman as a screen or to flood the enemy. Backed up by some skitarii infantry and heavy hitters like the dunecrawler.
Not sure yet.
There are a few basic ways. I think way (1) helps all imaginable admech lists. That last 500 points in admech doesn't scale well due to CP limitations. Admech has the best line of sight shooting on a point for point basis in the game from Cawl+WrathofMars+Dakkabots. So you are looking for screen, CP, and non-LOS support.
(1) CADIA - CP and LOS battalion [~504 points]
2x Company Commander (60) - take 5+ refunding CPWLT and either Kurov's or Relic of Lost Cadia
3x10 Guardsmen (120) - take mortars if you can, these are the front rank that do the dying
3x1 or 1x3 Basilisks (324) - shoot at things the neutrons can't see
(2) CADIA - CP and screen Brigade [~950 points]
3x company commanders
3x astropaths (still good psykers for 30 points)
3x scout sentinels with flamers (use scout move to push back deepstrikers)
6x10 guardsment (mortars are good upgrades here)
3x1 Basilisks (non LOS support, consider more mortar squads here)
The admech section should be as many Neutronagers as you have with either (1) Cawl + Robots or (2) Deepstriking Lucius plasma teams that you feed CP
EDIT2: I think that the other big competitive list for admech besides the obvious template one is something that masses deepstrike with Lucius and (2) CADIA brigade. That CADIA brigade lets you keep even your onagers off the table for the first turn, which is a huge advantage.
Thanks mate. I know that Cawlstar is OP I'm just not really a fan of the idea. Also 30 man guardsman screen is nothing. I played nids last weekend and had most of my 80 dudes screen wiped out 3 turns.
But I really like your (2) combined with the Lucius deepsttike, so some questions regarding that option:
(a) so you deepstrike basically your whole AdMech stuff (maybe excluding characters) , to keep them save from turn 1 shenanigans?
(b) do you bother deepstriking in a TPD with your plasma for those rerolls?
(c) Squad composition: Ranger or Vanguard? 10 man squads with datatether or 5 man squads?
(d) thinking about this idea: why shouldn't I just take scions?
2017/12/19 07:50:23
Subject: Tactica Mechanicus - Chapter Approved upon us
