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Wulfey wrote:

Scout marines made a lot of appearances in the top imperium LVO lists. Pretty much every one had them. I saw zero heavy bolters. Storm bolters yes, because 2 points for another bolter shot is a good deal. The problem is that all space marine HQs are taxes in a majority admech list (except for slamguinius, who can carry his weight if given the CPs needed to deal damage). And if you don't take 2 space marine HQs, then you aren't getting the strategems.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. The storm bolter upgrade seems really worth it though.

I don't even think Scouts should have Bolters. We aren't using them to hold objectives or anything. We're deploying them at the edge of the enemy deployment then charging them into anything that tries to leave it. Knives are the ideal weapon for this. Shotguns are a close second.

I'd assume it's a flexibility thing, how often do scouts actually end up in combat?

Might be worth it though. Melee scouts are cool.

Folks, GW pushed their FAQ back to bring in more info. Go submit your emails to 40kfaq@gwplc.com and hope we can persuade them to bring the points down on our awful units.

I already sent mine in focusing on that specific concept, since that seems like an easy errata piece to include. Ruststalkers and Kataphrons desperately need to come down in price to be remotely useful.

I am not wanting to be forced into soup to make this army work.

And on an aside, I finally picked up the clippers and started actually working on some models for this army again... foolishly. We'll see how long that drive lasts. It is just a few characters and one last Robot. We shall see.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Folks, GW pushed their FAQ back to bring in more info. Go submit your emails to 40kfaq@gwplc.com and hope we can persuade them to bring the points down on our awful units.

I already sent mine in focusing on that specific concept, since that seems like an easy errata piece to include. Ruststalkers and Kataphrons desperately need to come down in price to be remotely useful.

I am not wanting to be forced into soup to make this army work.

And on an aside, I finally picked up the clippers and started actually working on some models for this army again... foolishly. We'll see how long that drive lasts. It is just a few characters and one last Robot. We shall see.

Yeah, I did that as well. Just remember to be clear and polite folks, really doubt raged induced texts (whether legitimate rage or not) is going to help anybody. Speaking of building models, I just finished assembling my armiger knights, say what you will about their stats but the kit itself is absolutely fantastic. A breeze to buil and magnetise and really cool looking.

I sent mine already.

Sent mine in for the armiger

gendoikari87 wrote:
Sent mine in for the armiger

Wow. This makes me really dislike the model seeing a proper size comparison. Glad I didn't get any and likely won't. These aren't Knights, they are just armored Dragoons with arms and I think that would have made them a way cooler release.

I fething love it

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
They are a Lord of War? Well, they will be overpriced then. GW has no idea how to handle point costs on the "big" stuff (see: Knights).

That's what I'm afraid of. The box is weird though, someone over at bolter and chainsword calculated the necrons to be worth around 500points (I don't know necrons and this is obviously pre-codex so not exactly ironclad numbers) but Admech is 195 minimum sans knights (125 for a base TPD and 70 for 10 rangers, stock) but considering they're showing them with an transuranic arquebus, an arc rifle and a guy with a phosphor blast pistol they're actually 227 points. (+25,+4,+3 respectively). So unless the knights are like 135points each how is this box balanced pointwise?

They don't do balanced box sets, so that isn't something I would factor in. Unless they really are cheap and just terrible - which their weapon load out makes me think they will be.

They even use the points values pre-Chapter Approved in the booklet, so I suppose that was done before Chapter Approved was designed. And the transuranic Arquebus costs only 14 in the booklet (which I like).
Anyway, I sent a mail to GWS to check for the reason and what to do with it :p

I emailed asking for clarification on Litany of the Electromancer.

Has anyone requested scryerskull get faced/erratad to fix the issue there?

Worth asking them if we can use transports lol. Maybe they forgot we don’t have.

gendoikari87 wrote:
Has anyone requested scryerskull get faced/erratad to fix the issue there?

What issue?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ideasweasel wrote:
Worth asking them if we can use transports lol. Maybe they forgot we don’t have.

Not even opening that can of worms.

GW has dug themselves into a terrible hole in the points thing. The problem is that they tend to point out these units based on their datasheet stats. If you look at a cultist, it is junk for 4-5 points. But if you take 40 of them, give them veterans of the long war, if you spend 2CP to regen 30 of them, then they worth wayyyyy more than 4-5 points. 8 point poxwalkers get up to custodes levels of damage with all their auras and trees.

Sicarians ... 16ppm ... it really does swing 3 times as hard and is about 3 times as tough as one 5 point cultist. So if you just look at the data sheet, it kinda makes sense. But if you look at adepticon, just lol. Cultists stomp over everything in the game. And 7 point goatguys can 8" deepstrike charge, hit on 2s, and fight twice for 2cp. One sicarian is twice as strong and 50% tougher than a goat guy, but again, once you actually factor in the rest of the codex it isn't even close.

GW would have to make sicarians 10 points to be comparable to just the 7 point goat guys in a tournament list (ie, list written to win). But that would be baffling if you just look at the datasheets.

Wulfey wrote:
GW has dug themselves into a terrible hole in the points thing. The problem is that they tend to point out these units based on their datasheet stats. If you look at a cultist, it is junk for 4-5 points. But if you take 40 of them, give them veterans of the long war, if you spend 2CP to regen 30 of them, then they worth wayyyyy more than 4-5 points. 8 point poxwalkers get up to custodes levels of damage with all their auras and trees.

Sicarians ... 16ppm ... it really does swing 3 times as hard and is about 3 times as tough as one 5 point cultist. So if you just look at the data sheet, it kinda makes sense. But if you look at adepticon, just lol. Cultists stomp over everything in the game. And 7 point goatguys can 8" deepstrike charge, hit on 2s, and fight twice for 2cp. One sicarian is twice as strong and 50% tougher than a goat guy, but again, once you actually factor in the rest of the codex it isn't even close.

GW would have to make sicarians 10 points to be comparable to just the 7 point goat guys in a tournament list (ie, list written to win). But that would be baffling if you just look at the datasheets.

Bingo. Internal balance is nice, but if you don't factor in context, you wind up with this scenario.

 ph34r wrote:
I'd assume it's a flexibility thing, how often do scouts actually end up in combat?

Might be worth it though. Melee scouts are cool.

Depends on who you're fighting. If it's Orks, for example, you pretty much always make it into CC.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Folks, GW pushed their FAQ back to bring in more info. Go submit your emails to 40kfaq@gwplc.com and hope we can persuade them to bring the points down on our awful units.

I already sent mine in focusing on that specific concept, since that seems like an easy errata piece to include. Ruststalkers and Kataphrons desperately need to come down in price to be remotely useful.

I am not wanting to be forced into soup to make this army work.

And on an aside, I finally picked up the clippers and started actually working on some models for this army again... foolishly. We'll see how long that drive lasts. It is just a few characters and one last Robot. We shall see.

I already very politely begged them to drop the points on Servitors and Kataphrons as well as give both Sicarians another attack.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Has anyone requested scryerskull get faced/erratad to fix the issue there?

What issue?

RAW, you can use the Scryerskull to shoot with one unit every phase. Definitely not RAI though.

Yeah the forgebane box brings up some interesting points, I wonder if thats what we're in for. As a guy who wants to make a primarily skitarii based army seeing some of the points was odd. I really wish we had some sort of skitarii HQ option. It's really annoying to see the codex mention over and over that some become competent enough to run their own formations yet we're not given any option for an HQ.

Forgebane is an odd duck in general. For example, the necron cryptek guys have shields. In the book it mentioned they can potentially reflect shots back into the units that fired them in the lore much like the kastellan robots have. Yet if you read the rules there's nothing like that to be found. So yeah I have no idea what GW was doing there. At least the armiger's are slick. Yeah they suck for the points but hopefully they'll come down when the knight codex drops. Wonder what the bonus for making your knights mechanicus will be? It specifically mentions that your knights can be imperium aligned or mechancus aligned, independent of their house, which is another keyword. So apparently knights will run off not one, but two separate keywords for abilities and presumably strategems.

Random question for you guys who have been playing for a while, what do you do with all your dominuses? I've got 5 at this point and after building two I really don't know what to do with the other 3. Should I just use them as bits to make enginseers? People are having a hard enough time selling them at $10 a model so it hardly seems worth it to throw them on eBay.

You need like... one if you run Stygies? Two tops?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:


Forgebane is an odd duck in general. For example, the necron cryptek guys have shields. In the book it mentioned they can potentially reflect shots back into the units that fired them in the lore much like the kastellan robots have. Yet if you read the rules there's nothing like that to be found. So yeah I have no idea what GW was doing there.

Well, Lychguard used to have an ability ala the Kastellans back in 5th, maybe 6th as well... not sure. It was dropped at some point, though they did give them a stratagem to do it in the latest codex.

Suzuteo wrote:

RAW, you can use the Scryerskull to shoot with one unit every phase. Definitely not RAI though.

It isn't even RAW, it is a twisting of the language at best. I thought the community had come to that obvious conclusion a while ago. WAAC players, I tell ya!

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:

RAW, you can use the Scryerskull to shoot with one unit every phase. Definitely not RAI though.

It isn't even RAW, it is a twisting of the language at best. I thought the community had come to that obvious conclusion a while ago. WAAC players, I tell ya!

Disagree, it is very much RAW to be able to shoot with one unit every phase.

Now, I would say this is not RAI at all.

It would be incredibly scummy to try to use this stratagem in that way, and it ruins the spirit of the game.

I think this one was missed in the proofreads.

 LexOdin9 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:

RAW, you can use the Scryerskull to shoot with one unit every phase. Definitely not RAI though.

It isn't even RAW, it is a twisting of the language at best. I thought the community had come to that obvious conclusion a while ago. WAAC players, I tell ya!

Disagree, it is very much RAW to be able to shoot with one unit every phase.

Now, I would say this is not RAI at all.

It would be incredibly scummy to try to use this stratagem in that way, and it ruins the spirit of the game.

I think this one was missed in the proofreads.

It indicates that you can shoot without said penalties, not that you can make a shooting attack. But oh well, no one would dare pull this nonsense so it is a moot issue anyhow.

It indicates that you can shoot without said penalties

and can be activated at any time not just during your shooting phase, Per the logic of the sentence structure it IS RAW that you can use it to fire out of sequence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:


Random question for you guys who have been playing for a while, what do you do with all your dominuses? I've got 5 at this point and after building two I really don't know what to do with the other 3. Should I just use them as bits to make enginseers? People are having a hard enough time selling them at $10 a model so it hardly seems worth it to throw them on eBay.

Go to Ebay, buy up all the ones you can, run them as Allarus terminators for a counts as Myrmidon army

gendoikari87 wrote:

It indicates that you can shoot without said penalties

and can be activated at any time not just during your shooting phase, Per the logic of the sentence structure it IS RAW that you can use it to fire out of sequence.


/quote]

It does not say make a shooting attack, so no. If you can make an out-of-sequence attack, you can use this to remove the listed limitations though.

gendoikari87 wrote:
Go to Ebay, buy up all the ones you can, run them as Allarus terminators for a counts as Myrmidon army

That's a kinda tight idea.

That new DE “Agents of Vect” stratagem looks like it could pretty much hardcounter the Wrathbots tactic. Quite concerning.

 Verviedi wrote:
That new DE “Agents of Vect” stratagem looks like it could pretty much hardcounter the Wrathbots tactic. Quite concerning.

Well that's the gimmick for our competitive builds. So it does suck but oh well?

 Verviedi wrote:
That new DE “Agents of Vect” stratagem looks like it could pretty much hardcounter the Wrathbots tactic. Quite concerning.

We aren't nearly as dependent on Wrath of Mars in the Deldar matchup, so I am not worried.

I think the lack of real discussion at this point really tells the truth about where we're at right now.

By real discussion I mean the admech codex has been mostly figured out, there's very little flexibility in what we can run overall. Something doesn't feel right.

Played a game against Tau recently. They are more mobile and do shooting better than we do, and the sept I fought against punished so incredibly hard against melee that things went very poorly that game.

Dragoons couldn't get into CC (overwatch would annihilate them), couldn't hit the Ghostkeels due to a -3 to hit, drones took all anti-tank rounds from my neutronagers that were directed towards riptide/broadsides, drones were just barely out of range of the rest of my shooting.

Was able to take out the drones on turn 2 but by then enough damage had been done.