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Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






If you're going to do Graia, forget Rangers and special weapons. Just bring a ton of Blandguard. Like, two Battalions worth (12x10). Support them with a pimp hat Dominus with the Graia Warlord trait and maybe some Crawlers for the data-tether bonus. The idea is that you have a massive army of extremely efficient infantry that can shoot into CC with abandon. (This actually may be competitive if we get a transport one day... )

For the last detachment, you should bring Basilisks or something. Park your 3 additional Enginseers there with them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/30 00:04:35


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




@Suzuteo, You said you are using MT doctrine for your Militarum Battalion, Why that over Cadian?
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






Vaulsteiner wrote:
@Suzuteo, You said you are using MT doctrine for your Militarum Battalion, Why that over Cadian?

Because I use Guard for the infantry screen and Basilisks. The Big FAQ banned T1 Deep Strikes, so if you go second, they will be shooting to punch holes in your screen, and you will need to be able to move your infantry screen and engage up close to deny the T3 Deep Strike. And Basilisks always get the MT bonus because the entire table is within half of its range.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/30 03:04:00


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Suzuteo wrote:
Vaulsteiner wrote:
@Suzuteo, You said you are using MT doctrine for your Militarum Battalion, Why that over Cadian?

Because I use Guard for the infantry screen and Basilisks. The Big FAQ changed the T1 Deep Strike into a T2 Deep Strike. So if you go second, you need to be able to move your infantry screen and engage up close. And Basilisks always get the MT bonus because the entire table is within half of its range.


That work better than reroll 1’s and overlapping field of fire? If you tested it cool, it seems close though
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






Does anyone doing Guard+AdMech ever use Overlapping Fields of Fire? I mean, I only have 3 Basilisks, so it is pretty tough to get Infantry to wound anything worthwhile for them to shoot, and using it on two Basilisk is really meh. There are a ton of other things to burn 2 CP on.

Anyway, if it really concerns you, bring a Master of Ordnance. Gives you the reroll 1 and the MT doctrine.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/30 03:40:59


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Battlereport:

Game 1: my opponent cheats and deploys reinforcing zombi models out of coherency with models that started on the board. This allows him to reach across the board and tie up my robots in combat. I deployed thinking he couldn't do this and I couldn't think of the rule at the time. This won him the game. Smash captains did work, and clever piling in makes them very strong. Celestine wiffed. Robots never shot thanks to the cheating.

Game 2: I faced a roboute guilliman and 2 fireraptors list. He won roll to go first. His firepower is very strong and kill an onager and 2 robots. Smash captain 1 makes an 8" charge through terrain into a fireraptor. Celestine joins in and wiffs. I end up using HONOR THE CHAPTER to swing the captain again and down the firerapter. He drops in his inceptor bomb and fails to kill my captains through poor targeting. My smash captains kill the firerapter and 5 of 6 inceptors. He leaves RG out in the open and the robots kill him once. I eventually ground him to a tabling.

Game 3: my first win versus eldar. My opponent wins first turn, kills 1 robot and an onager and wounds celestine and clears a screen unit. My robot counter battery fire hitting on 6s but ignoring cover kills his rangers and dark reapers. Smash captain 2 took the WLT of +1 damage on weapon and the relic that lets him hit on 2s with a thunder hammer. THen I used the FAQ ruling on deepstrike vertical distance to get a 4" charge off. Smash then did 18 wounds to a wraithlord, HONORED THE CHAPTER and killed it. it blew up, killing him, then he ONLY IN DEATH DOES DUTY END for the last of my command points to then demolish a plane right next to him as he died. Celestine got shot and failed her 2+ reroll. I eventually won a close and tense game 23-18.

Unit by unit:

Smash captains are allstars. Like wow. Run them right now. Run them always. Run them forever. They are gods. Every IMPERIUM list is made better with smash captains and scouts. Just do it. Maybe make them out of Ursurax or something.

Dakkabots, so I was super down on them at the end of the day and impulse bought a baneblade at 15% off. Then my buddies explained how I got cheated. So now I am kinda back on the dakkabot train. I am pretty close to just dropping them and running STYGIES battalion, Shadowsword, BLANGELS battalion.

Cawl, like holy hell how does he roll so bad. He hits on 2s, wounds on 3s, but this jerk can't do anything. I don't get it. 240 points of aura caddy for the robots.

SKitari vanguard and rangers --- I think they did 5 wounds to targets over the course of 3 games. They often die for nothing, and usually fail to wound everything. In one game a group of rangers had +1 str and killed 5 cultists, they somehow passed morale (cheater guy). Non-stygies skitarii are just bad. God damn.

ENginseer -- literally did nothing in 2 games. In the third game he denied a critical deep strike because I happened to forget to move him from the out of LOS hide hole I had him in.

Neutrons -- one did like 6 wounds to a fire prism. one did like 6 wounds to a fire raptor. Zero wounds done from the bolters. Their only redeeming quality is that people like shooting them and for some reason split fire on them away from the robots.

Scouts -- if the first guy didn't cheat then they would have won me that game. As it was, he used the scout deaths to gain 3" of movement by placing resurrecting zombies closer and closer to my lines until he tied my robots up from across the board using a daisy chain. They did well in the third game and kept me up on objectives every turn. They kept me up on objectives every turn on the second game as well. Scouts really help when you get stuck going second.

Celestine -- I am done. I just can't. Smashcaptains actually kill things. Celestine just tickles stuff. Celestine + 2 geminae killed 3 scouts in combat, 2 lived and fell back. I was relying on her mobility as a crutch. The smash captains turn CP into DEVASTATION. Celestine is just .... there. But that isn't enough. People just hit her with mortal wounds. When she does her job and picks off some dark reapers and soaks way too much fire ... yeah ... she is good. But damn people have learned how to make a wall of garbage that makes suiciding her a useless proposition. She worked when I could SOUP her in, but with the taxes she just isn't worth it anymore. Smash captains do her job and do it harder.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Suzuteo wrote:
Does anyone doing Guard+AdMech ever use Overlapping Fields of Fire? I mean, I only have 3 Basilisks, so it is pretty tough to get Infantry to wound anything worthwhile for them to shoot, and using it on two Basilisk is really meh. There are a ton of other things to burn 2 CP on.

Anyway, if it really concerns you, bring a Master of Ordnance. Gives you the reroll 1 and the MT doctrine.


Just thinking worse case scenario, you needing to drop something at over 36” or out of LOS. One basilisk triggers the OFoF, so other two benefit
from it.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




I used it when I ran a harder guard complement. Just get 1 lucky mortar wound then fire the basilisks. But right now, if I had 2 CP, and the CP mattered, that would be saved for the smash captains. I passed on WRATH OF MARS to save for ONLY IN DEATH DOES DUTY END. It was the right call .. if only Celestine made her 2+ ressurect.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/30 04:46:08


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Thanks for sharing, Wulfy.

Battlescribe Catalog Editor - Please report bugs here http://battlescribedata.appspot.com/#/repo/wh40k 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






Wulfey wrote:
Battlereport:

Game 1: my opponent cheats and deploys reinforcing zombi models out of coherency with models that started on the board. This allows him to reach across the board and tie up my robots in combat. I deployed thinking he couldn't do this and I couldn't think of the rule at the time. This won him the game. Smash captains did work, and clever piling in makes them very strong. Celestine wiffed. Robots never shot thanks to the cheating.

Game 2: I faced a roboute guilliman and 2 fireraptors list. He won roll to go first. His firepower is very strong and kill an onager and 2 robots. Smash captain 1 makes an 8" charge through terrain into a fireraptor. Celestine joins in and wiffs. I end up using HONOR THE CHAPTER to swing the captain again and down the firerapter. He drops in his inceptor bomb and fails to kill my captains through poor targeting. My smash captains kill the firerapter and 5 of 6 inceptors. He leaves RG out in the open and the robots kill him once. I eventually ground him to a tabling.

Game 3: my first win versus eldar. My opponent wins first turn, kills 1 robot and an onager and wounds celestine and clears a screen unit. My robot counter battery fire hitting on 6s but ignoring cover kills his rangers and dark reapers. Smash captain 2 took the WLT of +1 damage on weapon and the relic that lets him hit on 2s with a thunder hammer. THen I used the FAQ ruling on deepstrike vertical distance to get a 4" charge off. Smash then did 18 wounds to a wraithlord, HONORED THE CHAPTER and killed it. it blew up, killing him, then he ONLY IN DEATH DOES DUTY END for the last of my command points to then demolish a plane right next to him as he died. Celestine got shot and failed her 2+ reroll. I eventually won a close and tense game 23-18.

Unit by unit:

Smash captains are allstars. Like wow. Run them right now. Run them always. Run them forever. They are gods. Every IMPERIUM list is made better with smash captains and scouts. Just do it. Maybe make them out of Ursurax or something.

Dakkabots, so I was super down on them at the end of the day and impulse bought a baneblade at 15% off. Then my buddies explained how I got cheated. So now I am kinda back on the dakkabot train. I am pretty close to just dropping them and running STYGIES battalion, Shadowsword, BLANGELS battalion.

Cawl, like holy hell how does he roll so bad. He hits on 2s, wounds on 3s, but this jerk can't do anything. I don't get it. 240 points of aura caddy for the robots.

SKitari vanguard and rangers --- I think they did 5 wounds to targets over the course of 3 games. They often die for nothing, and usually fail to wound everything. In one game a group of rangers had +1 str and killed 5 cultists, they somehow passed morale (cheater guy). Non-stygies skitarii are just bad. God damn.

ENginseer -- literally did nothing in 2 games. In the third game he denied a critical deep strike because I happened to forget to move him from the out of LOS hide hole I had him in.

Neutrons -- one did like 6 wounds to a fire prism. one did like 6 wounds to a fire raptor. Zero wounds done from the bolters. Their only redeeming quality is that people like shooting them and for some reason split fire on them away from the robots.

Scouts -- if the first guy didn't cheat then they would have won me that game. As it was, he used the scout deaths to gain 3" of movement by placing resurrecting zombies closer and closer to my lines until he tied my robots up from across the board using a daisy chain. They did well in the third game and kept me up on objectives every turn. They kept me up on objectives every turn on the second game as well. Scouts really help when you get stuck going second.

Celestine -- I am done. I just can't. Smashcaptains actually kill things. Celestine just tickles stuff. Celestine + 2 geminae killed 3 scouts in combat, 2 lived and fell back. I was relying on her mobility as a crutch. The smash captains turn CP into DEVASTATION. Celestine is just .... there. But that isn't enough. People just hit her with mortal wounds. When she does her job and picks off some dark reapers and soaks way too much fire ... yeah ... she is good. But damn people have learned how to make a wall of garbage that makes suiciding her a useless proposition. She worked when I could SOUP her in, but with the taxes she just isn't worth it anymore. Smash captains do her job and do it harder.

Game 1: Wait. What did he do exactly? EDIT: Oh, yeah. You have to deploy those zombies in coherency.

Q: Some rules allow me to add models to a unit during the battle (e.g. the Poxwalker’s Curse of the Walking Pox ability). Where are those models set up?
A: Unless otherwise stated, these new models are placed anywhere that is more than 1" from any enemy model and still within unit coherency of a model in its own unit that was itself on the battlefield at the start of the phase in which the new model was created. Note that if you cannot set up a new model on the battlefield because there is no room, it is simply not set up.


What is your Smash Captain setup anyway? It does not seem to be the same Smash@#$%er that I am familiar with.

Yeah, Rangers are useless aside from a tax. Vanguard can be okay en masse.

Enginseers are another tax, especially without any Basilisks that you might repair.

I honestly never ran Celestine because the math on her was really weird. She is good for mopping up and grabbing objectives, but hits nowhere as hard as Dragoons, and doesn't wall as well either.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/30 05:28:03


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Yeah, every time a scout died he put a poxwalker 3" closer to my robots. He got like an easy 21" in that way, charged my skitarii and piled into my robots on turn one with a poxwalker daisy chain all the way to his deployment side and 10" into my deployment. As as he did that, I was like, oh, I deployed thinking that wasn't a possibility. I guess you win. We still only got to the bottom of turn 2 because the poxwalker gak is so complicated.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/30 05:33:32


 
   
Made in gb
Aspirant Tech-Adept






Aw, that sucks about your first game. So if Celestine is getting benched what’s the replacement for your sisters patrol. Dragoon bomb?
   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

I've run a Dark Angels Master with jetpack and TH/combi-melta and I've been loving him every game too, last time I used the 3 CPs to make him fight again just to make sure Farsight wouldn't even try hitting back. The combi-melta is really fun too, I melted a Primaris Lieutenant when arriving from DS not long ago. The changes to Fly movement are great too since I can almost reliably charge with him from DS now.

I'll keep trying my Stygies and DA batallions, they're a CP battery (13) and DA gives me the mobility needed with the Bikes, Master and Inceptors. Intercessors are also strangely good, I rarely hesitate charging them into something, and they deliver.

I have to disagree on Rangers being objectively worse than Vanguards. Rangers are a little more cost-effective than Vanguards against every target except 2W infantry like Primaris, where they outshine the rangers with the 2D on 6s to Wound, but even then it's not by much. Vanguards are best used against either T3 infantry (they MELT Cultists), or Primaris if you roll 6s. Rangers are better as soon as they hit the 15" range, ans can actually shot beyond 18". I love both and play both, but I have to use them differently.

I'm thinking more and more about Eradication Beamer Onagers. They have a shorter range than Lasers, but I'm starting to think their profile makes it much more versatile, we don't really have any other weapon that hits with their profile, and it can be a very nice asset against some targets. The problem I'm facing with the Laser is that sometimes I'm playing against people who don't present a worthwhile target to it, like a no-vehicle DA list, or sometimes DG when there's the poxwalker spam. It's nice to not overkill stuff, while having a good number of shots. The low price is attractive too, I think I'll add an Onager like that when I'm having a third. I'll test it in a 1000 pts list I'll build for a small local tournament, although I wonder if the Icarus might not be better at this point level to deal with flying threats.

40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts 
   
Made in de
Enginseer with a Wrench






Suzuteo wrote:

I honestly never ran Celestine because the math on her was really weird. She is good for mopping up and grabbing objectives, but hits nowhere as hard as Dragoons, and doesn't wall as well either.


So what are you running in your list to get outside from your castle, grab objectives etc.? "Just" a big squad of Dragoon?
That's the only part I'm really struggling with my AdMech: Getting out and doing stuff on the map... And for that Celestine is just nice, but 250 are also a steep investment.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




ITC tends to have low objective marker count games. You really just need to hold two things. And no, a dragoon bomb and/or celestine are actually not that great at holding those things. They need to be out there hurting stuff. If that stuff is on an objective, great. But often their targets aren't (especially dragoon targets which tend to be tanks). Scout marines tucked out of line of sight who advance onto an objective won me the third game in that battle report. I even ran them off an objective to save them to get HOLD MORE on a later turn. People also swear by scout bikers. Admech has literally nothing that moves like that. Your only other option in STYGIES infiltrating vanguard into position for 1CP. But that blows and you should already have some scouts anyways. Nick Nanvati is down on admech for good reasons. The codex doesn't have the tools to play a complete game of 40k (objectives, psychic, mobility, non-LOS, near free chaff, units with freakish durability, flyers, transports). EDIT: even in that second game above, I advanced my scouts off the middle objective and behind cover when I saw too much coming in, they later ran in and put me up on hold more the next turn.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/30 15:45:53


 
   
Made in de
Enginseer with a Wrench






Sorry maybe I have not articulated myself very well: Of course I don´t wanna park an 400pts dragoon unit on a objective xD I was talking about leaving your deployment zone to apply pressure etc.

But here in Germany we don´t play ITC. We use the official missions with some modifications, e.g. objectives with D3 VP always grant 2 etc.
Now you know why I´m asking that question.
   
Made in lt
Mysterious Techpriest






@wulfey post as many batreps as you can dude. They're amazing. Love it.

Mathammer(primarily Chaos Daemons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Necrons and Orks) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
12k pts Daemons
5k pts Orks
5k pts AdMech
3k pts Necrons  
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






Wulfey wrote:
Yeah, every time a scout died he put a poxwalker 3" closer to my robots. He got like an easy 21" in that way, charged my skitarii and piled into my robots on turn one with a poxwalker daisy chain all the way to his deployment side and 10" into my deployment. As as he did that, I was like, oh, I deployed thinking that wasn't a possibility. I guess you win. We still only got to the bottom of turn 2 because the poxwalker gak is so complicated.

Can you explain how you set up your Captain Smash? Chapter, Warlord trait, relics, etc.?

 lash92 wrote:
Suzuteo wrote:

I honestly never ran Celestine because the math on her was really weird. She is good for mopping up and grabbing objectives, but hits nowhere as hard as Dragoons, and doesn't wall as well either.


So what are you running in your list to get outside from your castle, grab objectives etc.? "Just" a big squad of Dragoon?
That's the only part I'm really struggling with my AdMech: Getting out and doing stuff on the map... And for that Celestine is just nice, but 250 are also a steep investment.

Yup.

Spoiler:
MT Battalion Detachment - 537

HQ - 60
1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist
1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila

Troop - 123
10x Infantry - 9x Lasgun, Boltgun, Chainsword
10x Infantry - 9x Lasgun, Boltgun, Chainsword
10x Infantry - 9x Lasgun, Boltgun, Chainsword

Elite- 30
1x Master of Ordnance - Laspistol, Artillery Strike

Heavy Support - 324
3x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter

Mars Battalion Detachment - 1052

HQ - 287
1x Belisarius Cawl
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer

Troop - 105
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle

Heavy Support - 660
6x Kastelan Robots - 18x Heavy Phosphor Blasters

Stygies VIII Auxiliary Detachment - 408

Fast Attack - 408
6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

Total: 1997 points
12 Command Points

I am actually looking for excuses to cut down to 4 Dragoons. It is really hard to move 6 of these guys around if there's terrain. Still, 6x is an amazing wall and scary as hell midfield.

EDIT: Just now, I realized Master of Ordnance was 30 points and not 35 points. So I added one of that guy; Basilisks are my only ranged anti-tank, which might be a problem if Dragoons are needed.

 Aaranis wrote:
I have to disagree on Rangers being objectively worse than Vanguards. Rangers are a little more cost-effective than Vanguards against every target except 2W infantry like Primaris, where they outshine the rangers with the 2D on 6s to Wound, but even then it's not by much. Vanguards are best used against either T3 infantry (they MELT Cultists), or Primaris if you roll 6s. Rangers are better as soon as they hit the 15" range, ans can actually shot beyond 18". I love both and play both, but I have to use them differently.

If you're bringing them as a tax, yes, Rangers are probably better. If you want to do any fighting at all though, Vanguard all the way. But both are pretty bad. Because no transports and poor melee.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/04/30 18:19:08


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Rangers and Vanguard don't need any melee abilities.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Yeah I am skeptical of 6x dragoons because the 1" of 1" pile in is so nasty if there is terrain. The flower formation of 1 dragoon long ways in 1", and then 3 dragoons basing the front dragoon's back leg is very efficient for 4 dragoon units. If you did drop 2 dragoons, and you don't have smash captains to devour all your CP, I would consider taking a unit of plasma kataphrons. If your opponent doesn't have non-LOS shooting, they just need to be out of LOS for 1 turn. I suspect that many opponents wouldn't realize just how important it is to blow the kataphrons off the table at all costs and might get distracted by your robot herd. At 6 robots you are ALL IN robots. Might as up the bet even higher and reach for the +1 to hit.

EDIT: I will likely be going back to running dragoons at my next tournament beacuse I am sick of the damend robots.

BLANGELS - 2x smash captain, 3x5 scouts
STYGIES - TPD, Engi, 3x5-7 rangers with arc rifles or omnispexes mixed in, 3x1 icarus, 1x4 dragoons
TALLARN - Shadowsword, commander (5+/5+ to feed captains), 2x psykers to buff tank

I put as many infantry as I can out of LOS, leaving only my icarus and dragoons on the board to be shot. TALLARN shadowsword starts off the board, so it will always be alive for me to buff with the psykers. The whole army sucks to shoot at and has hard hitting melee. Shooting isn't as reliable as the bots, but shadow sword deletes CHAOS.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/30 18:46:57


 
   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

Suzuteo wrote:
 Aaranis wrote:
I have to disagree on Rangers being objectively worse than Vanguards. Rangers are a little more cost-effective than Vanguards against every target except 2W infantry like Primaris, where they outshine the rangers with the 2D on 6s to Wound, but even then it's not by much. Vanguards are best used against either T3 infantry (they MELT Cultists), or Primaris if you roll 6s. Rangers are better as soon as they hit the 15" range, ans can actually shot beyond 18". I love both and play both, but I have to use them differently.

If you're bringing them as a tax, yes, Rangers are probably better. If you want to do any fighting at all though, Vanguard all the way. But both are pretty bad. Because no transports and poor melee.

No, what I was saying is that for shooting, Rangers are a little better on average against all targets (especially MEQ), and Vanguards only shine against multi-wounds models and hordes of T3. All troops don't need good melee (or else why are everyone running Guards ?) and the only units that really needs a ride in our army are plasma Vanguards and both flavours of Electro-Priests. Nobody uses their transports for simple troops anyway, it's just better to grab a second squad for the same price most of the time. Only Elite units ride around, because they're too expensive to footslog and need speed to close in for either CC or shooting with short-ranged weapons.

40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Aaranis wrote:
Suzuteo wrote:
 Aaranis wrote:
I have to disagree on Rangers being objectively worse than Vanguards. Rangers are a little more cost-effective than Vanguards against every target except 2W infantry like Primaris, where they outshine the rangers with the 2D on 6s to Wound, but even then it's not by much. Vanguards are best used against either T3 infantry (they MELT Cultists), or Primaris if you roll 6s. Rangers are better as soon as they hit the 15" range, ans can actually shot beyond 18". I love both and play both, but I have to use them differently.

If you're bringing them as a tax, yes, Rangers are probably better. If you want to do any fighting at all though, Vanguard all the way. But both are pretty bad. Because no transports and poor melee.

No, what I was saying is that for shooting, Rangers are a little better on average against all targets (especially MEQ), and Vanguards only shine against multi-wounds models and hordes of T3. All troops don't need good melee (or else why are everyone running Guards ?) and the only units that really needs a ride in our army are plasma Vanguards and both flavours of Electro-Priests. Nobody uses their transports for simple troops anyway, it's just better to grab a second squad for the same price most of the time. Only Elite units ride around, because they're too expensive to footslog and need speed to close in for either CC or shooting with short-ranged weapons.

Can you confirm the math on that? I've never bothered to so I'm curious on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Suzuteo wrote:
If you're going to do Graia, forget Rangers and special weapons. Just bring a ton of Blandguard. Like, two Battalions worth (12x10). Support them with a pimp hat Dominus with the Graia Warlord trait and maybe some Crawlers for the data-tether bonus. The idea is that you have a massive army of extremely efficient infantry that can shoot into CC with abandon. (This actually may be competitive if we get a transport one day... )

For the last detachment, you should bring Basilisks or something. Park your 3 additional Enginseers there with them.

Hah, I kinda like that idea.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/30 21:15:57


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Aaranis wrote:
Suzuteo wrote:
 Aaranis wrote:
I have to disagree on Rangers being objectively worse than Vanguards. Rangers are a little more cost-effective than Vanguards against every target except 2W infantry like Primaris, where they outshine the rangers with the 2D on 6s to Wound, but even then it's not by much. Vanguards are best used against either T3 infantry (they MELT Cultists), or Primaris if you roll 6s. Rangers are better as soon as they hit the 15" range, ans can actually shot beyond 18". I love both and play both, but I have to use them differently.

If you're bringing them as a tax, yes, Rangers are probably better. If you want to do any fighting at all though, Vanguard all the way. But both are pretty bad. Because no transports and poor melee.

No, what I was saying is that for shooting, Rangers are a little better on average against all targets (especially MEQ), and Vanguards only shine against multi-wounds models and hordes of T3. All troops don't need good melee (or else why are everyone running Guards ?) and the only units that really needs a ride in our army are plasma Vanguards and both flavours of Electro-Priests. Nobody uses their transports for simple troops anyway, it's just better to grab a second squad for the same price most of the time. Only Elite units ride around, because they're too expensive to footslog and need speed to close in for either CC or shooting with short-ranged weapons.

Can you confirm the math on that? I've never bothered to so I'm curious on it.


Sure, here it is:

10 Vanguards:
vs GEQ (T3, 5+, 1W): 6,67 wounds, 11,99 pts/w - Rerolls 1s to Hit: 7,11 wounds, 11,25 pts/w - Rerolls all to Hit: 8,89 wounds, 8,99 pts/w
vs MEQ (T4, 3+, 1W): 2,22 wounds, 36,04 pts/w - Rerolls 1s to Hit: 2,37 wounds, 33,36 pts/w - Rerolls all to Hit: 2,96 wounds, 27,02 pts/w
vs PEQ (T4, 3+, 2W): 3,33 wounds, 24,02 pts/w - Rerolls 1s to Hit: 3,55 wounds, 22,53 pts/w - Rerolls all to Hit: 4,44 wounds, 18,02 pts/w
vs TEQ (T4, 2+, 2W): 1,67 wounds, 47,90 pts/w - Rerolls 1s to Hit: 1,78 wounds, 44,94 pts/w - Rerolls all to Hit: 2,22 wounds, 36,04 pts/w

10 Rangers, <= 15":
vs GEQ (T3, 5+, 1W): 6,30 wounds, 11,11 pts/w - Rerolls 1s to Hit: 6,93 wounds, 10,10 pts/w - Rerolls all to Hit: 8,40 wounds, 8,33 pts/w
vs MEQ or PEQ (T4, 3+, 1+W): 2,59 wounds, 27,08 pts/w - Rerolls 1s to Hit: 3,26 wounds, 21,47 pts/w - Rerolls all to Hit: 3,95 wounds, 17,72 pts/w
vs TEQ (T4, 2+, 2W): 1,48 wounds, 47,30 pts/w - Rerolls 1s to Hit: 1,63 wounds, 42,94 pts/w - Rerolls all to Hit: 1,98 wounds, 35,35 pts/w

Rangers are slightly cheaper for the same damage as the Vanguards, they're in my eyes a better general shooting unit than Vanguards. Vanguards pay 1 pt more per model just for the -1T in CC, basically, and I can't remember the last time it had been useful. I'll go 2/3 Rangers 1/3 Vanguards as soon as I have enough Rangers, they're just more versatile and can still poke out some shots after 18". Coupled to the fact they're the only good option to equip Arquebuses, and are a slightly cheaper option to give them Arc Rifles.

40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts 
   
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@Wulfey
Sorry to ask again: What is your Smash Captain set up? I actually am not sure what you are referring to when you say "Smash Captain" given the history of the name. Is it Smash@#$%er, an Iron Hands Captain with a Thunder Hammer and the Shield Eternal? Or is it Slamguinius, a Blood Angels Captain a Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, and the Angel's Wing relic? If the latter, are you seriously running two, or are you bringing along Mephiston or a Librarian for Psychic buffs?

 Aaranis wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Aaranis wrote:
Suzuteo wrote:
 Aaranis wrote:
I have to disagree on Rangers being objectively worse than Vanguards. Rangers are a little more cost-effective than Vanguards against every target except 2W infantry like Primaris, where they outshine the rangers with the 2D on 6s to Wound, but even then it's not by much. Vanguards are best used against either T3 infantry (they MELT Cultists), or Primaris if you roll 6s. Rangers are better as soon as they hit the 15" range, ans can actually shot beyond 18". I love both and play both, but I have to use them differently.

If you're bringing them as a tax, yes, Rangers are probably better. If you want to do any fighting at all though, Vanguard all the way. But both are pretty bad. Because no transports and poor melee.

No, what I was saying is that for shooting, Rangers are a little better on average against all targets (especially MEQ), and Vanguards only shine against multi-wounds models and hordes of T3. All troops don't need good melee (or else why are everyone running Guards ?) and the only units that really needs a ride in our army are plasma Vanguards and both flavours of Electro-Priests. Nobody uses their transports for simple troops anyway, it's just better to grab a second squad for the same price most of the time. Only Elite units ride around, because they're too expensive to footslog and need speed to close in for either CC or shooting with short-ranged weapons.

Can you confirm the math on that? I've never bothered to so I'm curious on it.


Sure, here it is:

10 Vanguards:
vs GEQ (T3, 5+, 1W): 6,67 wounds, 11,99 pts/w - Rerolls 1s to Hit: 7,11 wounds, 11,25 pts/w - Rerolls all to Hit: 8,89 wounds, 8,99 pts/w
vs MEQ (T4, 3+, 1W): 2,22 wounds, 36,04 pts/w - Rerolls 1s to Hit: 2,37 wounds, 33,36 pts/w - Rerolls all to Hit: 2,96 wounds, 27,02 pts/w
vs PEQ (T4, 3+, 2W): 3,33 wounds, 24,02 pts/w - Rerolls 1s to Hit: 3,55 wounds, 22,53 pts/w - Rerolls all to Hit: 4,44 wounds, 18,02 pts/w
vs TEQ (T4, 2+, 2W): 1,67 wounds, 47,90 pts/w - Rerolls 1s to Hit: 1,78 wounds, 44,94 pts/w - Rerolls all to Hit: 2,22 wounds, 36,04 pts/w

10 Rangers, <= 15":
vs GEQ (T3, 5+, 1W): 6,30 wounds, 11,11 pts/w - Rerolls 1s to Hit: 6,93 wounds, 10,10 pts/w - Rerolls all to Hit: 8,40 wounds, 8,33 pts/w
vs MEQ or PEQ (T4, 3+, 1+W): 2,59 wounds, 27,08 pts/w - Rerolls 1s to Hit: 3,26 wounds, 21,47 pts/w - Rerolls all to Hit: 3,95 wounds, 17,72 pts/w
vs TEQ (T4, 2+, 2W): 1,48 wounds, 47,30 pts/w - Rerolls 1s to Hit: 1,63 wounds, 42,94 pts/w - Rerolls all to Hit: 1,98 wounds, 35,35 pts/w

Rangers are slightly cheaper for the same damage as the Vanguards, they're in my eyes a better general shooting unit than Vanguards. Vanguards pay 1 pt more per model just for the -1T in CC, basically, and I can't remember the last time it had been useful. I'll go 2/3 Rangers 1/3 Vanguards as soon as I have enough Rangers, they're just more versatile and can still poke out some shots after 18". Coupled to the fact they're the only good option to equip Arquebuses, and are a slightly cheaper option to give them Arc Rifles.

I think the area where Vanguard really shine are against multi-wound targets. Radium procs are actually rather scary in volume.

As for melee, if you're running mass Skitarii, you should expect your infantry to get stuck in melee at some point. And unlike Guard, you don't suddenly get to be able to attack twice with Fix Bayonets!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/30 23:30:44


 
   
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I like rangers with an omnispex for very specific matchups. They have 30" range and ignore cover. So that means that Eldar Rangers are not at all safe from those rifles. Even a few shots will start dropping elves. Mathematically they should be good point for point shooting at dark reapers. But my opponent made 3+ saves for days.
   
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Wulfey wrote:
I like rangers with an omnispex for very specific matchups. They have 30" range and ignore cover. So that means that Eldar Rangers are not at all safe from those rifles. Even a few shots will start dropping elves. Mathematically they should be good point for point shooting at dark reapers. But my opponent made 3+ saves for days.

Yeah I just kinda wanted reassurance my dudes won't run away as I'm trying to make the most of the Strategems we have with the bigger Skitarii units. Ignoring cover might be more important though with those stupid trees and Rangers and Dal'Yth/Jormungandr equivalents...

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wulfey wrote:
I like rangers with an omnispex for very specific matchups. They have 30" range and ignore cover. So that means that Eldar Rangers are not at all safe from those rifles. Even a few shots will start dropping elves. Mathematically they should be good point for point shooting at dark reapers. But my opponent made 3+ saves for days.

Yeah I just kinda wanted reassurance my dudes won't run away as I'm trying to make the most of the Strategems we have with the bigger Skitarii units. Ignoring cover might be more important though with those stupid trees and Rangers and Dal'Yth/Jormungandr equivalents...

Don't worry. Our "big" units are others' "normal" units.

Anyhow, I just sent out my FAQ feedback. Three issues I brought up were charging storied buildings, three datasheets rule impacting those of us with 6x Dunecrawlers, and Iron Hands now totally sucking in general. =(

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/01 04:12:33


 
   
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Oh yeah. If you had more than 3 dunecrawlers that is really rough in competitive play. 6 dunecrawlers lists were cool. I just never had the models. Quite a grim nerf to something that wasn't even good.
   
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Wulfey wrote:
Oh yeah. If you had more than 3 dunecrawlers that is really rough in competitive play. 6 dunecrawlers lists were cool. I just never had the models. Quite a grim nerf to something that wasn't even good.

Yeah. All the guys trying 6x Beamer builds or 3/3x Icarus/Neutron got crotch-shotted.

Anyhow, I planned out a list along the lines you set down earlier. I actually have all the models for it aside from the Blood Angels. (Which I will paint black like Iron Hands and weep silently inside.)

Spoiler:
Blood Angels Battalion Detachment - 464

HQ - 299
1x Captain (129) - Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer, Relic: Angel’s Wing
1x The Sanguinor (170) - Encarmine Broadsword, Death Mask, Jump Pack

Troop - 165
5x Space Marine Scout - 5x Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, 4x Combat Knife
5x Space Marine Scout - 5x Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, 4x Combat Knife
5x Space Marine Scout - 5x Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, 4x Combat Knife

MT Battalion Detachment - 578

HQ - 60
1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist
1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Relic: Kurov's Aquila

Troop - 164
10x Infantry - 9x Lasgun, Boltgun, Chainsword
10x Infantry - 9x Lasgun, Boltgun, Chainsword
10x Infantry - 9x Lasgun, Boltgun, Chainsword
10x Infantry - 9x Lasgun, Boltgun, Chainsword

Elite- 30
1x Master of Ordnance - Laspistol, Artillery Strike

Heavy Support - 324
3x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter

Stygies VIII Battalion Detachment - 954

HQ - 172
1x Tech-Priest Dominus
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer

Troop - 120
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 5x Radium Carbine
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 5x Radium Carbine
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 5x Radium Carbine

Heavy Support - 390
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether

Fast Attack - 272
4x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

Total: 1996 points
17 Command Points
   
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I mean we're always gonna have robots for shooting in to cover. Might not be the best targets, but Rangers are just 30" bolters fodder. Vanguard with the right dice actually represent some sort of threat, and at least they can advance and fire as well.

I'm wondering if the rule of 3 may be altered slightly to include wargear variants. So you can have 3 neutronager and 3 icarus. But Units with lots and lots of different options then basically are unaffected by the ruling. It does hit armies like ours with very few options in all roles pretty hard...except elites I guess where we just have numerous but unusable units.
   
 
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