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 Paradigm wrote:
What, you mean like when Luke attempts (successfully) to redeem the child-murdering, planet-destruction-watching, family-torturing Vader in RotJ?

"It is too late for me my son"

Vader sacrifices himself to save Luke dying in the process. Its an act of ultimate penance that allows him some measure of peace for his actions. As noted above, Vader accepts that he has done very bad things and probably does not deserve his sons redemption. Compare that to Kylo who continues to blame others for all the casual stuff like killing kids and patricide.

That is not the same as Rey and Han being like "yeah Kylo, you should join us on team light side again and we can kick some butt! Never mind all of that bad stuff you did."

Another key difference is that, to quote rebels, "Anakin Skywalker was weak, I destroyed him.". Obi Wan tells Luke much the same. In other words the light and dark are almost two separate personas within Vader, one which Ahsoka could not reach through the darkness and save but which Luke could. In other words these are two separate individuals because of what Anakin went through. So you save Anakin by killing Darth Vader who is the persona that did all of the terrible things.

With Kylo its all him. Rey and Leia describe there being goodness within him. But they are both proven wrong. Theres also never the same message that he has a split personality and that we should view them as two distinct personas. Again, he really is just evil.

Also we're told that Anakin was a good man several times in the OT. So we as the audience are encouraged to think the good can be returned. We're never told that Ben Solo used to be a good man. He is simply shown wrestling with whether he should kill his parents, because apparently not killing your parents makes you a good person....maybe I am old fashioned but I assumed that's an expectation and you have to raise the bar to be called a good man. So basically there is nothing worth saving. He's a wretch.

Also Anakin fell to save Padme and his good intentions destroyed him. Kylo fell, basically because he wanted power and got angry when Luke tried to put an end to him. Why he killed his father, because it would make him more powerful. This is not sympathetic.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Another key difference is that, to quote rebels, "Anakin Skywalker was weak, I destroyed him.". Obi Wan tells Luke much the same. In other words the light and dark are almost two separate personas within Vader, one which Ahsoka could not reach through the darkness and save but which Luke could. In other words these are two separate individuals because of what Anakin went through. So you save Anakin by killing Darth Vader who is the persona that did all of the terrible things.

With Kylo its all him. Rey and Leia describe there being goodness within him. But they are both proven wrong. Theres also never the same message that he has a split personality and that we should view them as two distinct personas. Again, he really is just evil.

'Ben Solo was weak and foolish, like his father. So I destroyed him.' Kylo Ren, The Force Awakens.

It's literally the same line as Anakin used in Rebels. So why is it believable that Luke can save Anakin by breaking through Vader, but Rey can't save Ben Solo by breaking through Kylo Ren? She even calls him Ben, not Kylo, every time she talks about redeeming him. It's the exact same narrative device and arc, but somehow acceptable in Old Star Wars because that's untouchable perfection, but unforgivable in New Star Wars because... well, I've no bloody idea.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I'm not sure how it's left following the Disney buy-out, but....

The Khyber crystal would, still canonically, be chosen by The Right Jedi. This is shown in an episode of Clone Wars where some Younglings are taken to find their own crystals, and the trials therein.

Sith however have used artificial crystals, and that's why their blades are red. But, I'm not 100% sure if that is still canonical.

They actually just changed this a few months ago in the Darth Vader comic by Marvel. We see Vader build his red saber by tracking down a surviving Jedi and taking the crystal from his saber. He then fills it with his rage until it "bleeds" red.

There's a similar story where Ahsoka kills one of the inquisitors and takes the crystals from his saber. After she heals them, they turn into the white crystals we see her use in Rebels.

 Paradigm wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
But that scene isn't about Snoke. It's about Kylo, and all we need to know for the scene to work is that Snoke was Kylo's master, was the leader of the FO, was exceptionally powerful and had emotionally tortured and tormented him throughout his training. all of which we see on screen over the two films.

That's like saying all we needed to know about Sauron is that he leads Orcs and wants his ring back. Context matters.

Again, Kylo Ren is the Sauron of this trilogy. He is the primary antagonist, he is the nemesis for all the heroes, he is the one who poses the greatest threat to the characters arrayed against him. Snoke is a plot device to allow Kylo Ren to demonstrate his ruthlessness and provide a momentary chance for redemption which Kylo then declines.

Seriously, what do you think a complete history of Snoke would have added to this film, beyond meeting the assumption that he has to have a massively important past?

Because then we can think. OMG he killed Darth Plagus. Outwitted and murdered by his student just like Palpatine himself. Surely this means Kylo is as strong in the mind as Palpatine and could be a truly dark and terrible Supreme Leader in the Galaxy.

But no, apparently its better we just think of Snoke as a generic "plot device".

Again, context matters.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
But that scene isn't about Snoke. It's about Kylo, and all we need to know for the scene to work is that Snoke was Kylo's master, was the leader of the FO, was exceptionally powerful and had emotionally tortured and tormented him throughout his training. all of which we see on screen over the two films.

That's like saying all we needed to know about Sauron is that he leads Orcs and wants his ring back. Context matters.

Again, Kylo Ren is the Sauron of this trilogy. He is the primary antagonist, he is the nemesis for all the heroes, he is the one who poses the greatest threat to the characters arrayed against him. Snoke is a plot device to allow Kylo Ren to demonstrate his ruthlessness and provide a momentary chance for redemption which Kylo then declines.

Seriously, what do you think a complete history of Snoke would have added to this film, beyond meeting the assumption that he has to have a massively important past?

Because then we can think. OMG he killed Darth Plagus. Outwitted and murdered by his student just like Palpatine himself. Surely this means Kylo is as strong in the mind as Palpatine and could be a truly dark and terrible Supreme Leader in the Galaxy.

But no, apparently its better we just think of Snoke as a generic "plot device".

Again, context matters.

I don't see what adding in the existing name changes there, beyond satisfying a few fan-theories.

Plagus was exceptionally powerful. Snoke was exceptionally powerful. Palpatine killed his master. Kylo Ren killed his master. Vader killed his master. Going by the Old Republic books, which while now Legends have yet to be contradicted, all the Sith since Darth Bane were either killed, or killed their master, that's how being a Sith works.

I don't see how one adds anything more to the story than the other, beyond allowing a few people to loudly shout about being 'right' about Snoke's identity.

And to take the Plagus example, surely that also implies that Palpatine was kind of a bit crap, if his master survived after all...

 Paradigm wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Another key difference is that, to quote rebels, "Anakin Skywalker was weak, I destroyed him.". Obi Wan tells Luke much the same. In other words the light and dark are almost two separate personas within Vader, one which Ahsoka could not reach through the darkness and save but which Luke could. In other words these are two separate individuals because of what Anakin went through. So you save Anakin by killing Darth Vader who is the persona that did all of the terrible things.

With Kylo its all him. Rey and Leia describe there being goodness within him. But they are both proven wrong. Theres also never the same message that he has a split personality and that we should view them as two distinct personas. Again, he really is just evil.

'Ben Solo was weak and foolish, like his father. So I destroyed him.' Kylo Ren, The Force Awakens.

It's literally the same line as Anakin used in Rebels. So why is it believable that Luke can save Anakin by breaking through Vader, but Rey can't save Ben Solo by breaking through Kylo Ren? She even calls him Ben, not Kylo, every time she talks about redeeming him. It's the exact same narrative device and arc, but somehow acceptable in Old Star Wars because that's untouchable perfection, but unforgivable in New Star Wars because... well, I've no bloody idea.

Because Kylo Ren is not worth saving. Vader was since he was a great Jedi and a good man. Vader did not murder his own father in cold blood. When Vader says Anakin Skywalker was weak and foolish us, Luke and Ahsoka know that this isn't true. But with Kylo pretty much every scene only serves to confirm that he really is a weak and foolish man because he is STILL a weak and foolish man.

Also Vader is Lukes long lost father. Its very difficult for an orphan boy to not wish that he could have his father back, this legend that Obi Wan told him about. Why should Rey care about Kylo Ren, a total stranger? Having the hots for him would be a pretty shallow reason if we're going to go there since as pointed out he has done nothing good in the entire series.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
But that scene isn't about Snoke. It's about Kylo, and all we need to know for the scene to work is that Snoke was Kylo's master, was the leader of the FO, was exceptionally powerful and had emotionally tortured and tormented him throughout his training. all of which we see on screen over the two films.

That's like saying all we needed to know about Sauron is that he leads Orcs and wants his ring back. Context matters.

Again, Kylo Ren is the Sauron of this trilogy. He is the primary antagonist, he is the nemesis for all the heroes, he is the one who poses the greatest threat to the characters arrayed against him. Snoke is a plot device to allow Kylo Ren to demonstrate his ruthlessness and provide a momentary chance for redemption which Kylo then declines.

Seriously, what do you think a complete history of Snoke would have added to this film, beyond meeting the assumption that he has to have a massively important past?

Because then we can think. OMG he killed Darth Plagus. Outwitted and murdered by his student just like Palpatine himself. Surely this means Kylo is as strong in the mind as Palpatine and could be a truly dark and terrible Supreme Leader in the Galaxy.

But no, apparently its better we just think of Snoke as a generic "plot device".

Again, context matters.

I don't see what adding in the existing name changes there, beyond satisfying a few fan-theories.

Plagus was exceptionally powerful. Snoke was exceptionally powerful. Palpatine killed his master. Kylo Ren killed his master. Vader killed his master. Going by the Old Republic books, which while now Legends have yet to be contradicted, all the Sith since Darth Bane were either killed, or killed their master, that's how being a Sith works.

I don't see how one adds anything more to the story than the other, beyond allowing a few people to loudly shout about being 'right' about Snoke's identity.

And to take the Plagus example, surely that also implies that Palpatine was kind of a bit crap, if his master survived after all...

For somebody on a 40k forum I am baffled by your contempt for world building when writing a story. For example, in the book Master of Mankind, you have a big scary demon that stomps around and confronts the Emperor. By your reckoning, we do not need to know anything more about this demon because we know what its role is, how powerful it is and it serves its function in the plot and how our heroes respond to it. But actually the author has it that . But by your account, that does not serve the story and so is irrelevant. By my reckoning that adds a sense of drama and intensity to the Emperor confronting this Daemon beyond it simply being another daemon. You could say the same about Kabandha. Plot wise we only need to now that he is an angry bloodthirster who hates Blood Angels. But knowing how far back his history goes, that he was sent to corrupt them and failed; adds to the epic nature of the proceedings.

Basically you seem to think that making Snoke a generic cookie cutter character is a good thing.

We haven't seen Ben before he was Kylo yet. It's entirely possible that he was all set on the path to being a Big Damn Hero like Anakin before Luke was driven to try and murder him. After all, his parents were fundamentally good people and he was already training in the ways of the Jedi. Luke concedes that it was his moment of weakness that triggered Ben's fall, not any action by Ben himself.

It's perfectly understandable that that incident would set him on a darker path, and understandable that Rey would also conclude that Kylo's fall was as much Luke's fault as his own.. Rey feels betrayed on Kylo's part, as in both cases the figure they looked up to in Luke (as Master for Ben, and legend for Rey) betrayed them. If Rey can redeem Kylo, she can save Luke as well. If she can saved Luke, Luke can in turn become the master she needs him to be.


And back to Snoke, I still don't get what you think a Plagus reveal would add. To most viewers, Plagus is just a name associated with a powerful individual, exactly like Snoke. Sure, the handful of people who read the book (which I'm not sure is even part of the new canon) might get something more from it, and the people who were adamant they'd called it get their egos massaged, but it's ultimately going to be exactly as meaningful to the vast majority of cinema-goers. And, as I said before, it creates as many problems as it 'solves'; If Snoke is Plagus, how did he survive Palpatine's attempted assassination? Where was he during the era of the Empire? How is he associated with the First Order. You could say the same about Snoke, but that just proves that all you've done with the Plagus reveal is dropped a name.

 Peregrine wrote:


I don't think you understand what "hypocrisy" means. Claiming to be modern and inclusive and being terrible at writing are not mutually exclusive concepts.

You could be right on the extent of the Hanlon Razor - "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." So even if the writer show no hypocrisy for sure they made a bad job with they female characters. If there is not hypocrisy, I can at least laugh at them I guess.
In many interview, statements, or blogs by """""journalists""""" the weight of female character is literally advertised (and shown as a noverlty when is not, BTW).
They are exploiting a climate to add visibility to their movies for free. So you have article there exploring the importance of this female character, another on why we need this character with the current climate, and so on. But is just a stunt for additional visibility in groups that would not be normally interested in SW (and this post- big bang theory world moved in that direction).

Phasma has been pushed and advertised as a novelty and strong female character. Yet is a complete failure. We don't need to have a character to be a major one to be interesting, sometimes a character can be one-scene wonder. Phasma is a woman that fails and surrenders. Which is fine - but all the circus built around there gave a different impression. I cannot help note the discrepancy.
In the same way, I cannot help comparing the incommunicability of the admiral with the dialogue between Lando and Akbar in RotJ. The vibe in terms of trust and camaraderie is completely different. I am sure they wanted to create a strong woman in a position of command (the circus spent time on this as well) but they came out with someone less capable of being an inspiring leader.

I will keep my judgement on Rey-Ren (on Rey by herself I already said what can be said) because you could have a point about a possible late morale.
We will see. But if I am right, the failure will be complete (the point Paradigm raised notwithstanding - on that regard, Vader could not have killed the father and was pushed by "love" in his first foul actions, but after the prequels, if you accept them, he is the guy whoo murdered children. TWICE. This adds to his point. A LOT).

People are upset Snoke was tossed aside without development because TFA and TLJ both indicate that his background is important to understanding what's going on with the setting and with other characters.

One of the things I don't like about TLJ is the implication that Kylo is unredeemable. This goes back to Luke tossing aside his father's lightsaber after Rey hands it to him. That lightsaber represents Luke's major achievement in his OT character arc, defying the wisdom of his mentors to risk everything and dare to embrace rather than destroy (and replace) his father. And he just throws it over his shoulder like it's garbage. That's absolute horse gak but it indicates where TLJ is headed. Later we find out Luke considered murdering Ben Solo. WTF??? How is it that the guy who saw good in Darth Vader could even waver in his committment to his young nephew? I'm not saying this is impossible under any circumstances. But it is inadequately explained by the movie despite being the most crucial reveal.

Someone brought up Prometheus and Covenant. The relationship between TFA and TLJ is very, very much like that between those two films: the first raises a bunch of interesting questions and promises to answer them "next time" but, when next time rolls around, far from answering them the new story flat out refuses to deal with them at all.

 Manchu wrote:
People are upset Snoke was tossed aside without development because TFA and TLJ both indicate that his background is important to understanding what's going on with the setting and with other characters.

One of the things I don't like about TLJ is the implication that Kylo is unredeemable. This goes back to Luke tossing aside his father's lightsaber after Rey hands it to him. That lightsaber represents Luke's major achievement in his OT character arc, defying the wisdom of his mentors to risk everything and dare to embrace rather than destroy (and replace) his father. And he just throws it over his shoulder like it's garbage. That's absolute horse gak but it indicates where TLJ is headed. Later we find out Luke considered murdering Ben Solo. WTF??? How is it that the guy who saw good in Darth Vader could even waver in his committment to his young nephew? I'm not saying this is impossible under any circumstances. But it is inadequately explained by the movie despite being the most crucial reveal.

Someone brought up Prometheus and Covenant. The relationship between TFA and TLJ is very, very much like that between those two films: the first raises a bunch of interesting questions and promises to answer them "next time" but, when next time rolls around, far from answering them the new story flat out refuses to deal with them at all.

I don't see that. Covenant answered a lot of questions. They explained how the xenomorphs were created, how they evolved, ect. We are to assume that they were created as a weapon by the creators - to purge life (though we don't know why they would want to do this) from a planet and we observe it when David releases the weapon on the creators themselves. These were all things that Prometheus basically suggested and covenant confirmed.

I see nothing like this fro SW. Just a lot of useless characters that don't advance the story.

At the end of Prometheus, Shaw says she will go find the Engineers and get the answers Prometheus failed to offer. In Covenant, David kills the Engineers (and possibly also Shaw) before any answers are given.

All throughout TFA, we're introduced to mystery after mystery, mostly connected to who Snoke is and why Luke has been gone, and, at the end, we see Rey about to talk with Luke. Then in TLJ, this stuff is hand waived away via dumb, inappropriate jokes.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I'm not sure how it's left following the Disney buy-out, but....

The Khyber crystal would, still canonically, be chosen by The Right Jedi. This is shown in an episode of Clone Wars where some Younglings are taken to find their own crystals, and the trials therein.

Sith however have used artificial crystals, and that's why their blades are red. But, I'm not 100% sure if that is still canonical.

They actually just changed this a few months ago in the Darth Vader comic by Marvel. We see Vader build his red saber by tracking down a surviving Jedi and taking the crystal from his saber. He then fills it with his rage until it "bleeds" red.

There's a similar story where Ahsoka kills one of the inquisitors and takes the crystals from his saber. After she heals them, they turn into the white crystals we see her use in Rebels.

Yup. The Red Crystal are either actual Kyber Crystals infused with the dark side or synthetic crystals that have the same done to them. Blue is the normal color of a Kyber Crystal. Green is a synthetic crystal that luke manufactures to build his own light saber because he doesn't have access to a real one. The Purple one is very rare and unique and we never really get an explanation for why or how it exists. But thats pretty much all the light sabers. (Minus unique things like the Dark Saber but thats a crazy artifact from the distant past and is probably possessed by a ghost or something).

 Paradigm wrote:
So episode IX, we just get a really smug-looking Luke in the background of all Kylo's scenes, and occasionally Kylo will see him and go ballistic on something everyone else can't even see? Yep, sounds good!

Funnily enough... This is pretty much the exact same role Mark Hamill had in Arkham Knight...

Also, about Snoke. I think the point is this isn't his story. In same exact way that episodes 123 -456 were not palpatines.

Go back and watch 456. Those movies are ABOUT Vader and Luke. Palpatine is there but we never learn how he came to power, who his master is, or any other nonsense. It's just accepted that he is a powerful sith master and some bad news. We never get a single inkling into his history or who he is. Why is it acceptable then?

Go watch 123 (If you really hate yourself). We see palpatines rise but only in as much as it related to anakins fall. You don't see where he comes from, how he got powerful, who his master was or anything else about his backstory. Because the story is not about him.

789 are not about Snoke. It doesn't matter where he came from, who he is, or what hes doing. His purpose was to be the guy that drew Kylo into the dark and manipulated Rey. These movie are not about him. His story is irrelevant to the over all plot they are telling in these 3 movies. Just something to be explored later in books, comics, spin offs etc etc...

Lets pretend for a moment that in the movie they did say he was Plaguis reborn or mind transferred or whatever. Do you realize that that name only means something to a portion of the fans who bother to read ANY of the books, which is in turn a portion of the fans who delve into any of the expanded universe, which in turn excludes all the fans who only watch the movies?

What impact is that supposed to have on the majority of the movie going populace? What impact is that supposed to have on the 12-13 year olds for whom these are their first SW movies?

Delving into snokes story here in these movies would be a pointless distraction and be exactly the kind of bloat that makes 123 so much of a fething slog.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I would have really liked if instead of creating a new character as Vice Admiral, they would have had Akbar fulfill that role. They could have even thrown in a line when he is about to go to hyperspace, "Now, who's trapped?" At least his death would have done something as opposed to being a thowaway line.

Dude. Totes agree.

 Compel wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
So episode IX, we just get a really smug-looking Luke in the background of all Kylo's scenes, and occasionally Kylo will see him and go ballistic on something everyone else can't even see? Yep, sounds good!

Funnily enough... This is pretty much the exact same role Mark Hamill had in Arkham Knight...

Hamil is such an excellent troll in general. Him basically doing the Robot Chicken "meesa sparkly" skit in the next movie would totally make my day.

As for Snoke, I think his biggest issue is the same issue the FO in general had in Ep7. Abrams just didn't really give us any idea what exactly the First Order (or the Resistance) was in that film. In 456 we understand what "the Empire" is and are therefore have a natural understanding of what "the Emperor" means (for those thinking he had any real backstory; he doesn't even get a name in the films). We didn't need to know the Emperor because we understood the organization he created. By contrast, Ep7 starts in such a weird place politically without any explanation that we don't really ever fully comprehend the First Order all the way up to their leadership.

I don't mind Jakku, but there's a lot of wasted potential not setting the opening of the film in a more populated area. That would have presented the opportunity to give us some good old propaganda holograms and recruitment reels. Snoke in Ep7 was presented more as a shadowy puppeteer than the face of the organization he serves in Ep8. Had he been presented that way from the start I think there would be far fewer questions.

 Lance845 wrote:

Delving into snokes story here in these movies would be a pointless distraction and be exactly the kind of bloat that makes 123 so much of a fething slog.

Then why did they delve into it at all?

Palaptine doesn't show up until ESB, and even then it's brief. Snoke has ~3 minutes of screen time in TFA, and was repeatedly shown in trailers.

@LunarSol - exactly right RE: Snoke v. Palpatine ... also, Snoke is the key to why Luke was tempted to murder Ben ... and yet no explanation of how Luke's or Ben's relationship to Snoke.

@Lance845 - we see the rise of Palpatine in Eps 1 and 2. We didn't need to know this in the OT because nothing in the OT relied on that info, unlike how Snoke's background seems to be crucial to several points about TFA and TLJ.

 Lance845 wrote:
Also, about Snoke. I think the point is this isn't his story. In same exact way that episodes 123 -456 were not palpatines.

Go back and watch 456. Those movies are ABOUT Vader and Luke. Palpatine is there but we never learn how he came to power, who his master is, or any other nonsense. It's just accepted that he is a powerful sith master and some bad news. We never get a single inkling into his history or who he is. Why is it acceptable then?

But we do get a sense of who he is, why he matters and what role he fills in the film. How he's handled (in the OT) also proves that it doesn't have to involve bloating the film- which is something TLJ profoundly suffers from anyway. He's hinted at, then provides an important (but short) conversation with a lot of implications, and then finally is the major pivot for the climax of the final film and trilogy.

In TFA, they copy the short conversation with a lot of implications and then... set the whole thing on fire.

789 are not about Snoke. It doesn't matter where he came from, who he is, or what hes doing. His purpose was to be the guy that drew Kylo into the dark and manipulated Rey. These movie are not about him. His story is irrelevant to the over all plot they are telling in these 3 movies. Just something to be explored later in books, comics, spin offs etc etc...

Delving into snokes story here in these movies would be a pointless distraction and be exactly the kind of bloat that makes 123 so much of a fething slog.

It isn't about his story. It's about what he adds to the story the film is trying to tell, rather than wasting time on an element that doesn't go anywhere or do anything. In TFA, there is a huge pause while Cosplay Hux and Emo-Ren go snivel in front of a giant hologram. Said hologram gives permission for the decapitation strike with the superweapon on the republic, largely not for its own sake but to disrupt the Resisty's search for Luke. Then he lectures Emo-Ren about the corruption of the light. Since it turns out this doesn't matter at all, there was no reason to include it. Emo whimpers to himself enough while praying to grandpa to convey the exact same message. Similarly, if Cosplay Hux were his own boss, he can give himself the order to blow up the Republic capital, and the film can move on. Snoke is a deliberate waste of time and CGI budget, and a completely defunct and pointless story element. This is pretty much a red flag of bad movie making and bad storytelling.

In TLJ, he seems to serve as a bloated red herring that wastes screen time. Luke and Rey can just move directly to fighting the First Order and Ren, and not mess about with Gollum in a nice robe. Pacing, run time and excessive sub plots seem to be a thing with this film- not having a large and expensive element that apparently serves no point or purpose in the storytelling or action is entirely a good thing.

TFA needed Snoke because Kylo Ren needed an alternative father figure after, apparently, falling out with both his real dad and his uncle. But I guess KK and RJ realized Snoke served zero purpose going forward and used him as an excuse for Reylo drama.

Talking of purely unnecessary characters: Rose and Admiral Laura Dern. Get rid of both. Leia can do Laura Dern's part. That frees up Poe to have the long-awaited adventure with Finn. This also means Finn is not relegated to supporting a new, totally bland character. And you have a tighter, shorter film.

Of course, Disney didn't want such a film. The whole point of making these films is to grow licensing opportunities.

 dogma wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Delving into snokes story here in these movies would be a pointless distraction and be exactly the kind of bloat that makes 123 so much of a fething slog.

Then why did they delve into it at all?

Palaptine doesn't show up until ESB, and even then it's brief. Snoke has ~3 minutes of screen time in TFA, and was repeatedly shown in trailers.

3 minutes? Are you trying to say that is a lot? 3 minutes in a 2 hour movie means he is a major central player in the plot and deserves to be fleshed out with his backstory explained as something that is needed in the over all story ark? He got the screen time he needed to do what he had to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
@LunarSol - exactly right RE: Snoke v. Palpatine ... also, Snoke is the key to why Luke was tempted to murder Ben ... and yet no explanation of how Luke's or Ben's relationship to Snoke.

@Lance845 - we see the rise of Palpatine in Eps 1 and 2. We didn't need to know this in the OT because nothing in the OT relied on that info, unlike how Snoke's background seems to be crucial to several points about TFA and TLJ.

No it's not. Snokes background doesn't mean anything to the plot of 7 and 8. 7 and 8 are about Rey and Kylo. We have all the information needed. That is all the relevant background to this trilogy ark.

 LunarSol wrote:
Abrams just didn't really give us any idea what exactly the First Order (or the Resistance) was in that film. In 456 we understand what "the Empire" is and are therefore have a natural understanding of what "the Emperor" means (for those thinking he had any real backstory; he doesn't even get a name in the films). We didn't need to know the Emperor because we understood the organization he created. By contrast, Ep7 starts in such a weird place politically without any explanation that we don't really ever fully comprehend the First Order all the way up to their leadership.

I don't mind Jakku, but there's a lot of wasted potential not setting the opening of the film in a more populated area. That would have presented the opportunity to give us some good old propaganda holograms and recruitment reels. Snoke in Ep7 was presented more as a shadowy puppeteer than the face of the organization he serves in Ep8. Had he been presented that way from the start I think there would be far fewer questions.

This is one of the big problems of TFA that TLJ seems to continue. Neither organization is explained in any fashion. The FO obviously apes the Empire but... isn't it. The Resisty... doesn't really make sense in any way at all. One of the fill-in-the-gaps excuses (that wasn't in the film in any fashion) was the Republic didn't believe Leia and the other leaders about the existence of the First Order, so they went off to form the Resisty, but this explanation doesn't really hold any water- every single being they come across in the film knows exactly who the First Order are- scavengers, bartenders, pirates, bystanders in the cantina, literally everyone is 'in the know'. And this apparently continues in the TLJ, with Rose talking about the First Order strip mining planets and whatever. It's really obviously a big deal with a huge operation and massive logistics... being opposed by one noblewoman and a few old war buddies, and whoever they can talk into carrying the torch. For galaxy wide stakes, apparently.

With Snoke's presentation, it should have been consistent. A shadowy puppeteer Snoke (which he was introduced as, since Cosplay Hux is clearly a face of the FO) begs some explanation. A public Snoke requires less explanation, but still requires some sort of nod. It doesn't have to be a big one.- a would-be Rim warlord who was crushed by the Empire and now is back for revenge-fueled conquest is seriously fine. It can be tossed out by some (old guard imperial?) officer questioning his orders, 'why are we taking orders from a failed would be conqueror' before being summarily executed. Twenty seconds of dialogue and the whole matter is handled... up until Snoke is just tossed out of the plot.

Voss wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Also, about Snoke. I think the point is this isn't his story. In same exact way that episodes 123 -456 were not palpatines.

Go back and watch 456. Those movies are ABOUT Vader and Luke. Palpatine is there but we never learn how he came to power, who his master is, or any other nonsense. It's just accepted that he is a powerful sith master and some bad news. We never get a single inkling into his history or who he is. Why is it acceptable then?

But we do get a sense of who he is, why he matters and what role he fills in the film. How he's handled (in the OT) also proves that it doesn't have to involve bloating the film- which is something TLJ profoundly suffers from anyway. He's hinted at, then provides an important (but short) conversation with a lot of implications, and then finally is the major pivot for the climax of the final film and trilogy.

In TFA, they copy the short conversation with a lot of implications and then... set the whole thing on fire.

Yup. Because episode 9 isn't going to be a retred of RotJ. Snokes part in the story is done. It's not about Kylo mimicing Vader any more. That was what snoke used to manipulate kylo. Kylo has moved on and it's all new territory now. The best!

789 are not about Snoke. It doesn't matter where he came from, who he is, or what hes doing. His purpose was to be the guy that drew Kylo into the dark and manipulated Rey. These movie are not about him. His story is irrelevant to the over all plot they are telling in these 3 movies. Just something to be explored later in books, comics, spin offs etc etc...

Delving into snokes story here in these movies would be a pointless distraction and be exactly the kind of bloat that makes 123 so much of a fething slog.

It isn't about his story. It's about what he adds to the story the film is trying to tell, rather than wasting time on an element that doesn't go anywhere or do anything. In TFA, there is a huge pause while Cosplay Hux and Emo-Ren go snivel in front of a giant hologram. Said hologram gives permission for the decapitation strike with the superweapon on the republic, largely not for its own sake but to disrupt the Resisty's search for Luke. Then he lectures Emo-Ren about the corruption of the light. Since it turns out this doesn't matter at all, there was no reason to include it. Emo whimpers to himself enough while praying to grandpa to convey the exact same message. Similarly, if Cosplay Hux were his own boss, he can give himself the order to blow up the Republic capital, and the film can move on. Snoke is a deliberate waste of time and CGI budget, and a completely defunct and pointless story element. This is pretty much a red flag of bad movie making and bad storytelling.

In TLJ, he seems to serve as a bloated red herring that wastes screen time. Luke and Rey can just move directly to fighting the First Order and Ren, and not mess about with Gollum in a nice robe. Pacing, run time and excessive sub plots seem to be a thing with this film- not having a large and expensive element that apparently serves no point or purpose in the storytelling or action is entirely a good thing.

Snoke is essential to showing the evolution of Kylo. Kylo was a child worshipping his grandfathers legacy and snoke stoked that and manipulated it to turn Kylo into the tool he wanted. Snokes end is a evolution of Kylos character. It isn't about what we get out of Snoke, it's about what we get out of Kylo. Stop looking at Snokes scenes for Snokes sake and start looking at Snokes Scene for Kylo and Reys and what these characters learn, grow, and become because of it.

Rey gets to reinforce her resolve, Kylo moves forward as his own person with his own goals. Kylo isnt a vader under a emperor anymore. He is the emperor. Rey just went through what Luke did in RotJ and came out the other side firmly in her dedication to saving lives.

 Manchu wrote:
TFA needed Snoke because Kylo Ren needed an alternative father figure after, apparently, falling out with both his real dad and his uncle. But I guess KK and RJ realized Snoke served zero purpose going forward and used him as an excuse for Reylo drama.

Talking of purely unnecessary characters: Rose and Admiral Laura Dern. Get rid of both. Leia can do Laura Dern's part. That frees up Poe to have the long-awaited adventure with Finn. This also means Finn is not relegated to supporting a new, totally bland character. And you have a tighter, shorter film.

Of course, Disney didn't want such a film. The whole point of making these films is to grow licensing opportunities.

In an earlier draft, Poe and Finn go to the casino planet together. Johnson said he hated it because he thought it was boring and added Rose as someone who would challenge Finn.

Snoke is essential to showing the evolution of Kylo. Kylo was a child worshipping his grandfathers legacy and snoke stoked that and manipulated it to turn Kylo into the tool he wanted. Snokes end is a evolution of Kylos character. It isn't about what we get out of Snoke, it's about what we get out of Kylo. Stop looking at Snokes scenes for Snokes sake

I'm not. I'm looking at it for the movies' sake. And the character is presented as a complete waste of time.

Snoke isn't necessary for Emo Ren. His jealous fit of murder rage does not require Snoke. It requires a sense of rejection, and misguided hero worship. Both are easily provided for.
Add in some spotty recordings, and he can do the whole thing to himself.

And, Ren doing it to himself doesn't raise questions about how Luke didn't notice Snoke hanging about his new Jedi temple like pedo in a white van, which Snoke 'stoking' Ren presumably requires.

Kylo and Reys and what these characters learn, grow, and become because of it.

People are easily murdered and disposable? Emo Ren had apparently already learned that when he chops up other Jedi hopefuls in the rain. Rey learns that shortly after she learns about the force, when she just ups and blasts a stormtrooper.

Kylo isnt a vader under a emperor anymore. He is the emperor.

He isn't either. His character arc in TFA is to somehow prove himself worthy to be a vader, and he fails at it. He's so abjectly pathetic that even he doesn't think himself equal to a tortured servant and plaything.

By the end of TLJ he isn't the emperor. He's just the only guy with a lightsaber on the bad guy's side, thus to his mirror, he looks really cool. To be the Emperor he'd need to outwit and outmaneuver the entire galaxy and get them to willingly place him on the throne. Being the 'baddest dude' in charge of someone else's massive invading army is missing the point, and invading someone who magically doesn't have a fleet or army any more lacks a sense of accomplishment.

Kylo moves forward as his own person with his own goals.

Which are... what?
Seriously, no one and nothing has put forth a goal yet for any person or organization in these films.

 Lance845 wrote:
Snokes background doesn't mean anything to the plot of 7 and 8.

Incorrect. Luke explains that he was tempted to kill Ben Solo because Ben was too far under the influence of Snoke. How? When? Why? Not explained. As you yourself concede:

 Lance845 wrote:
Snoke is essential to showing the evolution of Kylo.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
In an earlier draft, Poe and Finn go to the casino planet together. Johnson said he hated it because he thought it was boring and added Rose as someone who would challenge Finn.

IMO just further confirmation, in addition to the terrible jokes in TLJ, that RJ is tone deaf. Finn/Poe team up at the beginning of TFA was breathless fun. Them having an adventure together in TLJ was something I was really looking forward to. What was boring about the casino world stuff was the prequel-esque casino world stuff itself, plus Rose's inane political commentary.

 Lance845 wrote:
Also, about Snoke. I think the point is this isn't his story. In same exact way that episodes 123 -456 were not palpatines.

Go back and watch 456. Those movies are ABOUT Vader and Luke. Palpatine is there but we never learn how he came to power, who his master is, or any other nonsense. It's just accepted that he is a powerful sith master and some bad news. We never get a single inkling into his history or who he is. Why is it acceptable then?

I think it's because Palpatine was the first time the series did it. Snoke was the weak point of the film for me, because he came across as a Palpatine cosplayer. If he had been Plagueis or a flawed clone of Palpatine, it would have been.....something to make him distinct from his predecessor.

I think overall, I disliked the movie when it was trying to homage the original trilogy all the time (biggest offender the landspeeder / siege weapon scene which added virtually nothing to the plot or characters other than "Hey, wasn't it cool when ESB did this?"). You can say a lot of bad things about the prequels, but they were innovating and trying to do new stuff with the setting, even if a lot of that new stuff didn't work.

But on the other hand, I liked the movie a lot when it felt like it was doing its own thing and actually building on the lore (Like the bit with Yoda being "Eh, I've seen the Jedi fall too, you get over it.", or the roguish merc very much not having a heart of gold under a scummy exterior).

Overall, I had fun. (edit) And having flicked through a few pages of this thread, I should probably leave before that sense of fun starts to spoil.

I feel I have to wade in here.

We all love the original trilogy, and we'd all admit that's not perfect. No film is.

None the less, there was a rational and a logic to it.

Nobody asks where the Empire got the money from for the Death Star, because they are an Empire with resources to spare.

Nobody questions Darth Vader - one look at him tells you. When Peter Cushing talks of the Senate being dissolved and systems being cowed by the Death Star, the audience knows we're dealing with tyrants. It's self-explanatory.

Similary, background is dealt with in a subtle war. Cushing tells Vader you are the last of that order. The Clone wars is mentioned. Luke's uncle is worried he'll turn out like his father. Kenobi is hiding out in a cave, but R2-D2's message hints at a past.

It feels right when those things are mentioned. A rational is at work here.

Vader is competent. His officers are competent. They don't always succeed, obviously, but compare them to the joke that is Hux. You would fear the former, but laugh at the latter. Hux is supposed to be a 'serious' villian, a capable commander, not some blundering off. There is no menace there.

And then we get TFA. Where did the first order come from? Who is Snoke? Why did Ben turn? The Republic - what happened to it?

Simply saying you need to read 30 background novels before going to the cinema is a cop out. There were no background novels for a New Hope before it came out.

In Episode IX, the first order will be defeated, Ben will be defeated, the rebels, sorry resistance, will win, and we're right back at the end of Return of the Jedi.

A pointless story arc that should have ended with ROTJ.

Voss wrote:

This is one of the big problems of TFA that TLJ seems to continue. Neither organization is explained in any fashion. The FO obviously apes the Empire but... isn't it.

This is one area I think Ep8 was a huge improvement on. The FO is clearly expressed as a militant uprising that has decapitated the government and begun conquering the galaxy. Even the name "The Resistance" makes sense in this context. The problem lies in the way these groups were introduced in Ep7 and something I was excited to feel like Ep8 really fixed for me.

Bah. Duble post. Blunder. my bad. delete this.