The Last Jedi - Movie Discussion - WARNING - Guaranteed Spoilers Within

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**RiTides**

Here's that link I finally found analyzing why the Rotten Tomatoes results are opaque and likely due to review bombing:

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/12/20/the-curious-case-of-the-last-jedi-and-its-rotten-tomatoes-audience-score

It's a great read!

Also, when I refer to audience reaction I'm talking about actual exit polling, done by comScore, also referenced above. Here's the breakdown of the 3 recent Star Wars movies - this is obviously quite at odds with the Rotten Tomatoes results!

Someone's data is way off, and imo, it's the RT results. Obviously all that (imo, undeserved) negative buzz could affect turnout, but that's also why I'm posting about it... because while I'm totally OK with discussing why people disliked it, saying the majority of people did is quite simply fake news!

**Miguelsan**

trexmeyer wrote:
Miguelsan wrote:
I understand that people will have differing opinions about TLJ being a good movie or being a disaster. But when a movie needs a second viewing or reading a tie in book, comic, whatever... I think that said movie is a failure at storytelling.

M.

Not only do I disagree, but I think that statement is poor in general. Many films and books benefit from a second viewing/reading (even if you think they are good in the first place) simply because there are subtleties (especially in film) that we simply don't process completely the first time around.

That's part of the reason I intentionally spoil every movie for myself before going to see it. I appreciate the movie more when I am watching the journey unfold than when I am trying to figure out where it goes.

There is a difference between watching or reading something a second time to look for the way Luke dodges, or the subtle reference on the bridge of the cruiser, and the need to go a second time to make sense of what's going on. I didn't had issues with this movie but surely TFA made me wonder what the hell was going on on the screen quite a few times like when they fire the big laser. I'm not going to pay a second time to watch a flawed movie to see if I get it.

M.

**trexmeyer**

I read that bit. I did take my brother to see TLJ as a Christmas gift and he HATED it, but when we discussed it most of his arguments against were moot. I agree with him that Canto was poor...

But this is also a guy who disliked GotG2. When it comes to movies we agree on things like Unbreakable, Arrival, and Fear and Loathing...but I seriously question if he gets those films the same way I do.

After seeing it the second time the performances by Driver and Ridley have me honestly excited for the sequel. Those two may have actually turned out the best acting (to me it's the most interesting story) in a Star Wars film. The amount of layers developed for those two characters is insane...partly because as you evaluate it the complexity, duality, and symbolism all grow. I don't know how to describe it other than it really feels like this is Star Wars done for film/story nerds. It reminds me of how people argued KotOR1 is better than KotOR2 (Are you kidding?)...

The Rey-Ren story is fething amazing. I don't know what to say other than that dynamic touches me in a way no other SW film has...

**Lance845**

The han solo movie seems pointless. I agree. But a obi wan man with no name style western taking place on a desert world where hes given up on the jedi stuff and gets all depressed and then pulled into some local conflict where he begrudgingly has to start chopping limbs would be pretty sweet.

**Audustum**

RiTides wrote:
Here's that link I finally found analyzing why the Rotten Tomatoes results are opaque and likely due to review bombing:

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/12/20/the-curious-case-of-the-last-jedi-and-its-rotten-tomatoes-audience-score

It's a great read!

Also, when I refer to audience reaction I'm talking about actual exit polling, done by comScore, also referenced above. Here's the breakdown of the 3 recent Star Wars movies - this is obviously quite at odds with the Rotten Tomatoes results!

Someone's data is way off, and imo, it's the RT results. Obviously all that (imo, undeserved) negative buzz could affect turnout, but that's also why I'm posting about it... because while I'm totally OK with discussing why people disliked it, saying the majority of people did is quite simply fake news!

The thing you have to remember about these kinds of surveys is that they are ALSO self-selection bias, just of a bit broader variety. The initial scores, while scientifically conducted, are based on samples of people who saw the movie opening night and opening weekend. This is a category of people more predisposed to like the film than all movie goers because they went in with a heft bit of enthusiasm (hence the early showings). The earlier the showing, the more the enthusiasm. Basically, both the data sets available to us involve a decent element of opt-in (with comScore just randomly selecting from people who already opted in).

Does that invalidate the poll? No, but it puts it on a bit more even footing with RT (which has meticulously reviewed its TLJ reviews and said it found no funny business). We should also note that TLJ is having some of the weakest holds in the entire franchise and while it will make a colossal amount of money due to its opening weekend (before many audience reviews were out) it's legs are suffering. That's a point in favor of RT's analysis being accurate.

While the exact numbers may elude us, the logical conclusion is that there is a large schism of somewhere between 35% and 50% disliking the film.

**AlexHolker**

If 97% of people who saw the film were either definitely or probably going to recommend it to their friends, the weekly box office wouldn't have plummeted like it did. A movie with such good word of mouth would look more like Avatar, a movie that actually made 7% more money in its second week than in the first.

**AllSeeingSkink**

Audustum wrote:

Spoiler:

RiTides wrote:
Here's that link I finally found analyzing why the Rotten Tomatoes results are opaque and likely due to review bombing:

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/12/20/the-curious-case-of-the-last-jedi-and-its-rotten-tomatoes-audience-score

It's a great read!

Also, when I refer to audience reaction I'm talking about actual exit polling, done by comScore, also referenced above. Here's the breakdown of the 3 recent Star Wars movies - this is obviously quite at odds with the Rotten Tomatoes results!

Someone's data is way off, and imo, it's the RT results. Obviously all that (imo, undeserved) negative buzz could affect turnout, but that's also why I'm posting about it... because while I'm totally OK with discussing why people disliked it, saying the majority of people did is quite simply fake news!

The thing you have to remember about these kinds of surveys is that they are ALSO self-selection bias, just of a bit broader variety. The initial scores, while scientifically conducted, are based on samples of people who saw the movie opening night and opening weekend. This is a category of people more predisposed to like the film than all movie goers because they went in with a heft bit of enthusiasm (hence the early showings). The earlier the showing, the more the enthusiasm. Basically, both the data sets available to us involve a decent element of opt-in (with comScore just randomly selecting from people who already opted in).

Does that invalidate the poll? No, but it puts it on a bit more even footing with RT (which has meticulously reviewed its TLJ reviews and said it found no funny business). We should also note that TLJ is having some of the weakest holds in the entire franchise and while it will make a colossal amount of money due to its opening weekend (before many audience reviews were out) it's legs are suffering. That's a point in favor of RT's analysis being accurate.

While the exact numbers may elude us, the logical conclusion is that there is a large schism of somewhere between 35% and 50% disliking the film.

It'd be interesting to see how comScore gathers their data as well as I'm just going to go out on a limb and say it's probably also introducing its own bias just in how the numbers are collected. Did audiences fill out pamphlets? Were they asked by actual people? How many people didn't answer?

Any poll is going to be biased simply by how many people don't answer surveys. I'd argue there's a specific type of person who actually says yes to answering a survey and I'm not convinced that type of person is representative of the population as a whole.

**RiTides**

Regarding the second weekend box office drop-off: a very vocal minority, which also has a high percentage of very dedicated fans comfortable using technology, could skew "word of mouth" results, as a lot of that is achieved online now, and actually negatively affect ticket sales. That's actually why I'm posting, because I know a lot of folks who liked it, but reading online at first, the posts and subsequent coverage was Very fan-negative...

Also note that TFA had a huge dropoff in its second weekend, and a lot of box office results are affected by the date Christmas and Christmas Eve fall relative to the weekend, what the weather is like, etc. There simply isn't a comparable-situation movie to look at that made so much the first weekend. And again, even fantastic movies don't always perform well at the box office.

Regarding comScore's methods, exit polling isn't everything, but my understanding is a big part of the goal of their polling is to eliminate self selection bias. I don't know that they're successful, but the process is (seemingly) a lot more transparent. There is another similar "actual audience" result that I need to look up the link for, too, but I've seen Nothing in articles refuting the validity of these polls or methods. And then, of course, there's also the "starkly-different-to-RT" IMDB poll, which also happens to have a lot more safeguards than RT.

-----------------------------

The bottom line, as the article above says: something fishy is going on Somewhere. Maybe IMDB and comScore are wrong, maybe Rotten Tomatoes is - but they obviously cannot both be accurate portrayals of general audience reception. Someone has got their data wrong, and personally I'm the least likely to trust the method with less safeguards (and even a crazy guy claiming to have skewed them, although RT disputes it).

Oh well, the debate rages on, I guess

. Until third weekend data, then?

**insaniak**

AlexHolker wrote:
If 97% of people who saw the film were either definitely or probably going to recommend it to their friends, the weekly box office wouldn't have plummeted like it did. A movie with such good word of mouth would look more like Avatar, a movie that actually made 7% more money in its second week than in the first.

Unless all the people that 97% would have recommended it to also already saw it in the first week...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:
"Dark Lord of the Sith" did not need to be explained because nothing hinged on explaining it

Sure. And the same could be said about the questions in the post I was responding to. They're all things that either were answered, will be answered in time, or are simply not actually important to the story.

Snoke's origin, for example, is only relevant to the story of it actually plays a part in how everything unfolds. Otherwise, it's no more necessary for the new films to cover it than it was for the original trilogy to explain where Palpatine came from.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:
In TFA, Rey touches Anakin's lightsaber and has a vision where she, as a small child, is being menaced by a Knight of Ren before said knight is himself killed by Kylo Ren. This is as close to an explanation we get of who Rey is in TFA, a major cliffhanger for TFA.

I think you've misread that scene. I never took it as actually being Rey involved in that incident, just that was how she was seeing it in the vision. And the Knights are the guys behind Kylo in the vision, who Luke explains in TLJ were other students suborned by Kylo. The guy Kylo kills in the vision is presumably just another student.

**Paradigm**

trexmeyer wrote:
I don't see an interesting story for him. Whatsoever.

He chilled in a desert from III to IV (we see him in Rebels) and we saw him all throughout I-III and the Clone Wars. What's left?

I'll take a Fett, Vader, or even a Sidious origins over Obi-Wan.

There's plenty of scope in that 19 year period that's yet to be explored, even with Rebels and the Journals of Obi-wan Kenobi comics, especially given that you could tell a decent story set over just a few days. Something like this:

Spoiler:

Begin on Tatooine, maybe 18 months after the end of RotS. Obi-wan is settling into his new life, but cannot yet come to terms with the way of things. On his odd forays into civilisation, he hears stories spreading of a masked man in the service of the Empire, strong in the Force and utterly ruthless. He hears how this mysterious figure has been hunting down the last handful of Jedi across the galaxy and left only terror and death in his wake. Obi-wan begins to wonder if he's really doing the right thing waiting around on Tatooine while his former brothers and sisters in arms are being slaughtered. He knows it's what he has to do, but it doesn't sit well with him.

A few weeks later, he receives a message coded on a Jedi channel that hasn't been used in months. A desperate former master (could be a Prequel character who didn't get an on screen death. Shak Tii?
Luminara Unduli?) calls for any and all remaining Jedi to join them on [insert planet here. Nar Shadaar would be good, or Dantooine) where they will make one desperate last stand against this new terror. Despite knowing that it's not his destiny, Obi-wan goes. He cannot sit by while the last of his kind are wiped out.

As he travels to this showdown, Obi-wan begins to wonder about the identity of this masked man. He defeated Anakin, so who has The Emperor replaced him with? In his travels, Obi-wan has a brief showdown with an Inquisitor. On defeating him, Obi-wan interrogates him about the Emperor's new apprentice, and learns that he was once a Jedi of immense power.

We're now set up for the epic finale. Obi-wan and 5-6 Jedi of varying strengths up against Vader. Awesome fight of Rogue One Corridor Scene magnitude ensues, with the Jedi being picked off one by one until it's just Obi-wan and Vader. In that duel, Obi-wan slices through the mask and at last recognises his former pupil... The two of them fight to a standstill until Obi-wan can escape, knowing that he cannot now challenge Vader and that Luke is the only hope for the galaxy. He returns to Tatooine and begins his long vigil again...

Any Han Solo story meanwhile is going to just be a straightforward heist caper carried on the sheer magnetism and charisma of Han himself... which of course relies on the new chap being able to bring that to the table, but if he can then it should be fun.

**Riquende**

Paradigm wrote:
Something like this:

That really doesn't sound very engaging to be honest. Takes too many cues and is far too reminiscent of the prequel era. I'd go with something a little bit more introspective and would be happy if his lightsaber was never ignited. I'm not sure how you'd weave discovering the Vader/Anakin connection into it but if the villains of the piece are the Empire then you'd find a way (that doesn't have to be central to the actual plot).

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Theres nothing wrong with the acting. I think most of the characters are very well cast.

Its the writing and Directing that sucks.

Nothing wrong with the acting?

With all due respect Shadow Captain, that's utter hogwash.

Del Toro didn't so much as phone it in, as get somebody else to phone it in for him!

They'll still be using his footage decades from now, as a masterclass in how not to act.

And it's a shame becasue Del Toro is usually superb. God only knows what was going on that day.

**insaniak**

The 'Kenobi' novel was actually a pretty good attempt, without needing to be a galaxy-spanning saga.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Compel wrote:
I'm watching The Force Awakens again right now and there's certainly a real feeling of their being more star wars 'magic' to it than TLJ, or even Rogue One, in fact.

Although, Rogue One IS still my favourite star wars film, it's still a war film first.

Small wonder, seeing as it's a remake of a new hope. Of course some of the magic was going to carry over into TFA.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've just had a quick look through some of the previous pages, and people are saying that 'only' making hundreds of millions is not the disaster it's made out to be.

And it's a fair point.

But from my viewpoint, we've had 9 Star wars films. 6 of them, IMO, have been turkeys, and 4 out of 9 have featured Death Stars.

Something of an artistic drought is affecting Star wars, and with Disney, it's not likely to improve.

From what I've been reading and hearing, the Solo film looks as though it could be another mess.

On the plus side, I rarely pay for cinema tickets, so Disney ain't getting a penny out of me

**insaniak**

By the time you've made 9 movies in a setting, it's a fairly safe bet that there's going to be some duplication, particularly when the guy who made the first 6 specifically set out to reuse the same tropes as often as possible...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Del Toro didn't so much as phone it in, as get somebody else to phone it in for him!

They'll still be using his footage decades from now, as a masterclass in how not to act.

I'm not sure what you're basing that on, to be honest. I thought he was great.

**Compel**

In all honestly, I'd class him as the second most annoying character in Star Wars - You know Who wins.

I was sincerely hoping Hux would just shoot him in the back after paying him with, "never trust a traitor... Not even one you created."

**Xenomancers**

My goodness...now there is a conspiracy to make TLJ look bad.

The critics are right and the viewers are intentionally tanking the score...just wow. SJW is going to your heads if you believe this junk.

The movie is bad by the standards of any movie. As a starwars film - it is an insult to the previous trilogy and without a shadow of a doubt - the worst star wars movie ever made.

**Frazzled**

Peregrine wrote:
Manchu wrote:
Greatest second weekend drop off in history is definitely underperforming. Maybe it will claw back some audience tomorrow.

I suppose, from one point of view. From another point of view to have the greatest second weekend drop in history you have to have a pretty damn impressive opening weekend, which TLJ did. And, again, I think it says a lot that the supposed financial proof of failure consists of "it was only a massive profit, not an obscene record-breaking profit".

if half the planet watches it on the first weekend, the falloff would be huge, but the initial run would be, half the planet...

**RiTides**

I also thought Del Toro was great, and was hoping he'd return for the third of the trilogy (probably actually helping the good guys, this time

). It was kind of cool to see a neutral mercenary character actually choose the Empire, unlike Han "always do the right thing in the end" Solo

**Peregrine**

Xenomancers wrote:
My goodness...now there is a conspiracy to make TLJ look bad.

The critics are right and the viewers are intentionally tanking the score...just wow. SJW is going to your heads if you believe this junk.

It's hard not to suspect people of tanking the score when we have examples of brilliant reasoning like this one. Clearly it must be "SJWs" if people think that the viewers are tanking the score. It can't possibly be the result of taking a look at reviews like "1/2 star Feminist propaganda. Rian Johnson is a troll. Great way to lose a fan base. Thanks Disney for ruining an epic franchise." and suspecting that there might in fact be some review-tanking going on. Nope. If you suspect anything but 100% honest opinions that TLJ is one of the worst movies ever created you must be a SJW.

As a starwars film - it is an insult to the previous trilogy and without a shadow of a doubt - the worst star wars movie ever made.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Episode_I_%E2%80%93_The_Phantom_Menace

**Xenomancers**

RiTides wrote:
I also thought Del Toro was great, and was hoping he'd return for the third of the trilogy (probably actually helping the good guys, this time ). It was kind of cool to see a neutral mercenary character actually choose the Empire, unlike Han "always do the right thing in the end" Solo

It's hard to like a character when he conveniently pops into the story like he did. Get thrown into jail with a guy that was just waiting to break you out so he can hack ISD's (which the movie lied to us about - its supposed to be a rare skill only 1 guy has - not a skill a random jail mate should have.)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
My goodness...now there is a conspiracy to make TLJ look bad.

The critics are right and the viewers are intentionally tanking the score...just wow. SJW is going to your heads if you believe this junk.

It's hard not to suspect people of tanking the score when we have examples of brilliant reasoning like this one. Clearly it must be "SJWs" if people think that the viewers are tanking the score. It can't possibly be the result of taking a look at reviews like "1/2 star Feminist propaganda. Rian Johnson is a troll. Great way to lose a fan base. Thanks Disney for ruining an epic franchise." and suspecting that there might in fact be some review-tanking going on. Nope. If you suspect anything but 100% honest opinions that TLJ is one of the worst movies ever created you must be a SJW.

As a starwars film - it is an insult to the previous trilogy and without a shadow of a doubt - the worst star wars movie ever made.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Episode_I_%E2%80%93_The_Phantom_Menace

I loved the phantom menace. My favorite of the prequels. Maul vs Qui gon and Obiwan + duel of fates musical score is just beautiful - it brings me chills every time I watch it. TLJ is a dreadful movie I'd never sit through again. Ofc - this is just my opinion.

I do think it's perfectly normal to give a terrible review after just watching the worst movie you've ever seen. It's not a conspiracy. The only conspiracy there is if there is one - is how the major movie critics were paid off or being SJW themselves are doing everything they can to forward their agenda.

**Peregrine**

Xenomancers wrote:
I loved the phantom menace. My favorite of the prequels. Maul vs Qui gon and Obiwan + duel of fates musical score is just beautiful - it brings me chills every time I watch it. TLJ is a dreadful movie I'd never sit through again. Ofc - this is just my opinion.

Your opinion, and a pretty rare one. Most people agree that it was a terrible movie. Terrible acting, weak plot, obnoxious characters, and only one massively over-hyped fight scene to redeem it. But feel free to substitute the other prequels if you like, most people will agree that even if TLJ is a flawed movie it's still better than the borderline-unwatchable prequels.

I do think it's perfectly normal to give a terrible review after just watching the worst movie you've ever seen. It's not a conspiracy.

It might be normal, but it sure as hell isn't accurate data. There is no way that TLJ is bad enough to rank among the worst movies ever created. It's just not that bad.

The only conspiracy there is if there is one - is how the major movie critics were paid off or being SJW themselves are doing everything they can to forward their agenda.

And just what "SJW agenda" is that? At least the idea that the critics are paid off to protect Disney's profits would have a plausible motive, trying to blame "SJWs" for anything here is just nonsense.

**dogma**

Xenomancers wrote:
I loved the phantom menace. My favorite of the prequels. Maul vs Qui gon and Obiwan + duel of fates musical score is just beautiful - it brings me chills every time I watch it. TLJ is a dreadful movie I'd never sit through again. Ofc - this is just my opinion.

You mean Ray Park is pretty much the best fight coordinator that isn't Jackie Chan, or Jet Li, or Sammo Hung, or John Woo?

**A Town Called Malus**

Maul vs Qui Gon and Obi Wan is very pretty to look at but lacks anything beyond that. It only gets any emotional impact after qui gon is killed.

Contrast with the original trilogy, every duel had emotional stakes, they served to further the characters not to distract the viewer.

Also, the duels in Empire and Jedi look phenomenally better than Phantom, thanks to their usage of lighting and framing. There is nothing in the maul fight which ever approaches them. If you have any doubt about that, just look at this:

Spoiler:

**welshhoppo**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Maul vs Qui Gon and Obi Wan is very pretty to look at but lacks anything beyond that. It only gets any emotional impact after qui gon is killed.

Contrast with the original trilogy, every duel had emotional stakes, they served to further the characters not to distract the viewer.

Also, the duels in Empire and Jedi look phenomenally better than Phantom, thanks to their usage of lighting and framing.

You say that, but the Obi-Wan solo vs Maul lacks emotion in the actual duel. It was over-choreographed to hell and back.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

insaniak wrote:
By the time you've made 9 movies in a setting, it's a fairly safe bet that there's going to be some duplication, particularly when the guy who made the first 6 specifically set out to reuse the same tropes as often as possible...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Del Toro didn't so much as phone it in, as get somebody else to phone it in for him!

They'll still be using his footage decades from now, as a masterclass in how not to act.

I'm not sure what you're basing that on, to be honest. I thought he was great.

He looked disinterested, half-asleep, and to be frank, I though he was hung-over.

As I say, it's a shame, because he's a damn good actor.

And from a story POV, he makes zero sense.

He's in jail, but he could leave at any time.

Then I thought he did this to get money out of people, i.e pay him and he'll get you out, but he's a master code breaker, and thus he could hack into any bank at any time. Or even rig the casino machines.

Same for betrayal. He could have gotten the money at any time. Hell, if he can hack into First Order ships, then why not shake down the Resistance for some money?

Like I say, his character is totally unnecessary and makes no sense.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

welshhoppo wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Maul vs Qui Gon and Obi Wan is very pretty to look at but lacks anything beyond that. It only gets any emotional impact after qui gon is killed.

Contrast with the original trilogy, every duel had emotional stakes, they served to further the characters not to distract the viewer.

Also, the duels in Empire and Jedi look phenomenally better than Phantom, thanks to their usage of lighting and framing.

You say that, but the Obi-Wan solo vs Maul lacks emotion in the actual duel. It was over-choreographed to hell and back.

Yeah, If you listen to The Duellists DVD commentary by Ridley Scott (which I would recommend to any aspiring film maker) then he says the same thing.

A duel has to be more than a simple sword fight.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Maul vs Qui Gon and Obi Wan is very pretty to look at but lacks anything beyond that. It only gets any emotional impact after qui gon is killed.

Contrast with the original trilogy, every duel had emotional stakes, they served to further the characters not to distract the viewer.

Also, the duels in Empire and Jedi look phenomenally better than Phantom, thanks to their usage of lighting and framing.

Bloody hell!

I agree with you. Doesn't happen often.

That being said, every previous duel meant something.

New Hope = Obi Wan being killed.

Empire = massive shift in the story with Vader's revelation to Luke

Jedi = redemption.

Phantom = Obi Wan having to grow up quicker than expected with Liam Neeson's death.

Force awakens? Meh. Duel didn't do anything.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
RiTides wrote:
I also thought Del Toro was great, and was hoping he'd return for the third of the trilogy (probably actually helping the good guys, this time ). It was kind of cool to see a neutral mercenary character actually choose the Empire, unlike Han "always do the right thing in the end" Solo

It's hard to like a character when he conveniently pops into the story like he did. Get thrown into jail with a guy that was just waiting to break you out so he can hack ISD's (which the movie lied to us about - its supposed to be a rare skill only 1 guy has - not a skill a random jail mate should have.)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
My goodness...now there is a conspiracy to make TLJ look bad.

The critics are right and the viewers are intentionally tanking the score...just wow. SJW is going to your heads if you believe this junk.

It's hard not to suspect people of tanking the score when we have examples of brilliant reasoning like this one. Clearly it must be "SJWs" if people think that the viewers are tanking the score. It can't possibly be the result of taking a look at reviews like "1/2 star Feminist propaganda. Rian Johnson is a troll. Great way to lose a fan base. Thanks Disney for ruining an epic franchise." and suspecting that there might in fact be some review-tanking going on. Nope. If you suspect anything but 100% honest opinions that TLJ is one of the worst movies ever created you must be a SJW.

As a starwars film - it is an insult to the previous trilogy and without a shadow of a doubt - the worst star wars movie ever made.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Episode_I_%E2%80%93_The_Phantom_Menace

I loved the phantom menace. My favorite of the prequels. Maul vs Qui gon and Obiwan + duel of fates musical score is just beautiful - it brings me chills every time I watch it. TLJ is a dreadful movie I'd never sit through again. Ofc - this is just my opinion.

I do think it's perfectly normal to give a terrible review after just watching the worst movie you've ever seen. It's not a conspiracy. The only conspiracy there is if there is one - is how the major movie critics were paid off or being SJW themselves are doing everything they can to forward their agenda.

The Phantom Menace is a flawed film IMO, but as I always say, Lucas' heart was in the right place, and it felt like a SW film. Just poor execution let it down. Still, rather have phantom than VII and VIII any day of the week.

**Xenomancers**

All the prequels are flawed to some extent.

Phantom has Jar Jar and not enough action.

Attack of the clones has young Hayden Christensen and that awful scene on Naboo where Padme and Anakan fall in love. Then also that one scene next to the fire place...awful but at least that is the worst of it.

RotS was good except for some really bad acting before the Anakan vs Obi Wan fight and then that stupid high ground scene (could have been better)

They all told good stories though - had consistent characters - and what could be cooler than watching the rise of the emperor?

I don't need to list everything wrong with TLJ. It's infinitely worse than any of the prequels though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
I loved the phantom menace. My favorite of the prequels. Maul vs Qui gon and Obiwan + duel of fates musical score is just beautiful - it brings me chills every time I watch it. TLJ is a dreadful movie I'd never sit through again. Ofc - this is just my opinion.

Your opinion, and a pretty rare one. Most people agree that it was a terrible movie. Terrible acting, weak plot, obnoxious characters, and only one massively over-hyped fight scene to redeem it. But feel free to substitute the other prequels if you like, most people will agree that even if TLJ is a flawed movie it's still better than the borderline-unwatchable prequels.

I do think it's perfectly normal to give a terrible review after just watching the worst movie you've ever seen. It's not a conspiracy.

It might be normal, but it sure as hell isn't accurate data. There is no way that TLJ is bad enough to rank among the worst movies ever created. It's just not that bad.

The only conspiracy there is if there is one - is how the major movie critics were paid off or being SJW themselves are doing everything they can to forward their agenda.

And just what "SJW agenda" is that? At least the idea that the critics are paid off to protect Disney's profits would have a plausible motive, trying to blame "SJWs" for anything here is just nonsense.

Well...accepting bribes to give good reviews is believable - it is even more believable if they are also on board with the agenda. I can't conceive of someone that has actually studied film and reviews movies for a living that could possibly have anything good to say about this movie. What is the agenda? It appears to be elevation of women and minorities - which would be great if it wasn't at the expense of the quality of the story/characters.

**Blackie**

The last jedi was mediocre, but still the average level of american blockbusters. Marvel movies are not better.

IMHO the force awakens was really terrible and along with attack of the clones the worst Star Wars episode ever made.

The previous trilogy wasn't better than the latest two episodes, it starred Hayden Christensen and included Jar Jar after all. But Adam Driver is almost as ridiculous and silly as Christensen. Not that bad in acting but very close. And Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher were former actors, the story would have been better if set many years after episode IV, when all the old characters were already dead.

I can save the previous trilogy only because there were a couple of amazing villains, Darth Maul and Grievous but the plots and actings were really terrible.

So yes the last jedi is bad, but not that bad and certainly it doesn't deserve to be re-written.

**KTG17**

I am actually amazed in this politically correct world, that a black character beat up and killed a white woman. Then again, in some warped way, that is probably okay. Had Finn been white, I am not so sure that would have gone over as well. Who knows, its hard to know what is okay and not okay these days. I know it wouldn't have been okay had Phasma been a black woman.

Of course, I say this just partially screwing around. I think Phasma is lame anyway. All she did was walk around in that pose holding her blaster. She could have at least killed off a subordinate.

**Voss**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:A duel has to be more than a simple sword fight.

Actually, just getting on with it and having a simple sword fight would have been worlds better than the complete mess of pacing and dancing that characterized the 'Glaring Behind Force Fields of the Fates'

But then, so would a rap battle, given that their fight had no stakes whatsoever. Jar jar matter more to the fate of that planet than the jedi or sith did.