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You got a point manchu and usually we agree on a lot. I did like Rogue One however.

I think Holdo could've been ok if they added more depth to her (and made the adjustments to her and Leia that i suggested) but Rose not so much. Rose messing up Finn's heroic sacrifice for a love triangle in a relationship really bugged me because it made the heroic and foolish run worthless. Honestly i think it is just Rose loving Finn but Finn isn't feeling it as much.

Yeah I think she has a crush on him. I mean, she treats him like a celebrity. Then she stuns him because poor Finn is just a vehicle for slapstick, I guess. Except in TFA he got a badass moment to pick up a lightsaber even considering he knew he was about to get his ass handed to him because he wanted to defend his friend. In this one, you think he might get badass moments but they are all fethed up. His fight with Phasma is interrupted and she's killed by gravity/fire. And of course Rose t-bones his rickety speeder in a move that logically would have killed them both. I'm glad Finn didn't die but on the other hand all he got to do in the movie is tag along as a sidekick to Rose "I am a marketing ploy" Tico.

I don't think there is any saving Holdo. The only point she serves is to make Poe look dumb. Poe's arc could have been, brash hothead becomes mature leader without totally undermining him - especially when doing so all hangs off a woman in an ugly cocktail dress refusing to explain her plan.

If by marketing ploy you mean to sell it to the politically correct audience then yeah.

To be fair Finn was a bit of a vehicle for slapstick in TFA as well but i think you mentioned that. Btw is it me or do the PC audience just not care that most of both movies Finn has sucked and Rey was OP in TFA? I actually felt bad how much Finn sucked in many cases. He deserves better. At least they toned Rey down a bit more for this movie though.

Did anyone see how the codebreaker managed to find out about the shuttle stealth codes to give them to the First Order? Rose and Finn never knew about them.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Did anyone see how the codebreaker managed to find out about the shuttle stealth codes to give them to the First Order? Rose and Finn never knew about them.

He's a skilled hacker who plays both sides by his own admission. He likely has a lot of dirt on both sides already and used his knowledge of the codes as leverage.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Did anyone see how the codebreaker managed to find out about the shuttle stealth codes to give them to the First Order? Rose and Finn never knew about them.

He's a skilled hacker who plays both sides by his own admission. He likely has a lot of dirt on both sides already and used his knowledge of the codes as leverage.

But rather than make a fortune from his dirt, he hangs around getting wasted in jail and agreeing to go on suicide missions he could easily have been killed on.
Smart bloke.

I still think the hacker would be 10 times a better character if switched out with Tyrone Biggums from Chappelle's show.

That and when Rey is with endless versions of her she should've made a music video with her visual echoes ;P.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Interesting throwback.... they should have made another character use it though so it didn't make Luke look like someone in the early stages of dementia.

What?

It's a laser sword. He called it a laser sword.

If I refer to a .44 magnum as a pistol, that's not a sign that I'm losing my marbles. It's just a sign of me using a generic name for something. And in the scene in which Luke uses it, he's using it in a derogatory fashion... it's specifically supposed to sound silly.

Sorry but that just sounds like BS to try and handwave away something Luke wouldn't do..

No, it's an explanation that was clearly presented in the movie for something that Luke considered for a brief instant and then realised he couldn't do.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Did anyone see how the codebreaker managed to find out about the shuttle stealth codes to give them to the First Order? Rose and Finn never knew about them.

I think Poe mentioned the plan vaguely over the com to Finn and Rose. I just assumed the Codebreaker overheard them and made an educated guess.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
To be fair Finn was a bit of a vehicle for slapstick in TFA as well but i think you mentioned that. Btw is it me or do the PC audience just not care that most of both movies Finn has sucked and Rey was OP in TFA? I actually felt bad how much Finn sucked in many cases. He deserves better.

The elevator pitch for Finn is good ("He's a Stormtrooper who defected after the First Order carried out a massacre.") but Abrams never committed to that idea.

Anything written about Finn should have started from two axioms:
- Finn has spent years being trained to kill for the First Order.
- Finn left the First Order because he is a conscientious objector.

For one example, wouldn't Finn have been a more interesting character if the reason he and Poe were shot down over Jakku was because he hesitated when escape meant killing a TIE pilot that an hour ago might have been his friend?

 AlexHolker wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
To be fair Finn was a bit of a vehicle for slapstick in TFA as well but i think you mentioned that. Btw is it me or do the PC audience just not care that most of both movies Finn has sucked and Rey was OP in TFA? I actually felt bad how much Finn sucked in many cases. He deserves better.

The elevator pitch for Finn is good ("He's a Stormtrooper who defected after the First Order carried out a massacre.") but Abrams never committed to that idea.

Anything written about Finn should have started from two axioms:
- Finn has spent years being trained to kill for the First Order.
- Finn left the First Order because he is a conscientious objector.

For one example, wouldn't Finn have been a more interesting character if the reason he and Poe were shot down over Jakku was because he hesitated when escape meant killing a TIE pilot that an hour ago might have been his friend?

There is no way anyone involved in creating TLJ would have considered something so intelligent or meaningful.

 insaniak wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Interesting throwback.... they should have made another character use it though so it didn't make Luke look like someone in the early stages of dementia.

What?

It's a laser sword. He called it a laser sword.

If I refer to a .44 magnum as a pistol, that's not a sign that I'm losing my marbles. It's just a sign of me using a generic name for something. And in the scene in which Luke uses it, he's using it in a derogatory fashion... it's specifically supposed to sound silly.

Agree to disagree I suppose. Anakin using the term laser sword is specifically to show the kid knows something about Jedi but is for the most part ignorant, which is why it also makes Luke come across as suffering from dementia.

I wouldn't describe it as the generic term for a light sabre akin to using the word pistol because other than the Anakin quote as far as I'm aware it's never used in-universe (I didn't even know about that one until you brought it up) where as the word "pistol" is common usage to describe a family of weapons.

Isn't it supposed to be a plasma weapon rather than a laser anyway? EDIT: Apparently Lucas calls them laser swords out of universe, but still my point remains that the only time they've been called that in universe in the movies was to demonstrate a relative ignorance of a child talking about Jedi.

Sorry but that just sounds like BS to try and handwave away something Luke wouldn't do..

No, it's an explanation that was clearly presented in the movie for something that Luke considered for a brief instant and then realised he couldn't do.

Yeah, a BS and poorly considered explanation.

By the end of RotJ Luke demonstrates sufficient control and wisdom to not get spooked in to doing something so stupid, we've already seen Luke's ability to calmly deal with dark side users who have committed horrible atrocities, let alone some kid who has done nothing except demonstrated some latent dark side tendencies.

So why has Luke become stupid? They even could have made some interesting story about Luke being deceived, or used Snoke's mind manipulation abilities to show Kylo only think he's being attacked and retaliating, instead they leave us with a Luke acting nothing like Luke would act.

I honestly wondered if they were trying to make us think Luke was suffering dementia. He reminded me of an elderly WW2 vet who's starting to lose their mind.

So why has Luke become stupid?

Because he became a true Jedi, and like all Jedi before him the plot demands that he be jaw droppingly dumb and oblivious, least he use his powers for actual good and solve a problem or two

/sarcasm (but not really)

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
He's a skilled hacker who plays both sides by his own admission. He likely has a lot of dirt on both sides already and used his knowledge of the codes as leverage.

LordofHats wrote:I think Poe mentioned the plan vaguely over the com to Finn and Rose. I just assumed the Codebreaker overheard them and made an educated guess.

I suppose that could make sense. Still seems a bit of a stretch to me but it's hardly the biggest pitfall in the film.

I thought Luke’s sneer and derision was enough to show he was mocking Rey. Not dementia. Honestly, how did anybody miss that? It wasn’t deep.

That said, it’s hard watching the classic characters go. Ben is the only character I feel is currently worth investing emotion into (from the audience), Finn is underused and should be WAY more interesting, and it feels like they have no idea what to do with Poe except “amazing pilot, but brash”. Rey is kinda blah. Rose annoyed me.

It feels like even the prequel characters were easier to get emotionally invested in, even when you knew how they would later die; it’s weird saying that. I didn’t hate TLJ, but it is nowhere near ESB. TFA was better, too.

I feel like Finn should be a much darker and more serious character, almost emotionally cold and callous, given that he was indoctrinated from a young age to be a Stormtrooper. He's a conscientious objector sure, but he should still be emotionally and mentally fethed up by his upbringing as a child soldier in a Totalitarian Military regime and his character Arc should be about healing and learning to develop compassion. I mean, he was basically in the Star Wars version of the Hitler Youth and Waffen SS.


Poe should be the comedic character, not Finn.

Another 'cool' thing about Luke in the new trilogy.

He sees Rey's raw strength and, lack of resistance to the call of the dark side, says he's only seen this raw strength once before, in Kylo Ren. This strength, he says, didn't scare him enough then. "It does now."

Luke went to Kylo's sleeping quarters in the middle of the night with his lightsaber. He knew there was a problem. There were warning signs of some kind. Luke claims he went to talk to Kylo (in the middle of the night, with his laser sword, while Kylo was asleep). He senses darkness in him-a terrible, overpowering, irreversible darkness-and decides, for the briefest moment, to cut down his nephew/apprentice.

Let's compare.

That was Luke Skywalker back when he wasn't afraid enough of the power he sees in the new generation. What does he do to Rey when he senses her power and actual demonstrated willingness to embrace the dark side of the force for answers? Storms off in a huff and never warns her against the dark side again, just keeps ranting about the failures of the jedi and how they need to end.

Much wow.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I thought Luke’s sneer and derision was enough to show he was mocking Rey. Not dementia. Honestly, how did anybody miss that? It wasn’t deep.

Oh I understood the mocking bit, but him also acting so whacky made me wonder if we were supposed to think Luke was losing his mind. Where Luke of the original trilogy was so willing to help his friends to the point it was almost a character flaw (running off to face Vader to save his friends when both Yoda and force ghost Obi Wan told him he wasn't ready), Luke of TLJ seems to have internalised everything and is now unable to think outside the box he's created for himself.

I'm happy enough that the story is no longer about Luke, it's not his job to save the galaxy anymore, but it's also against the character profile created in the original trilogy for him to act like he is in TLJ.

It's worth bearing in mind that there's about as much time between the new trilogy and RotJ as there is between AotC and RotJ. Luke is more than twice the age now he was at the end of the OT. There's plenty of time for radical shifts in personality and character there, especially given that he lives a life of heightened emotion and drama given his role as Jedi Master, war hero and sole remaining Jedi. And to quote his other famous role, 'all it takes is one bad day'.

Luke is broken after watching everything he fought for crumble, everything he built was destroyed, and his friends are dying. He is emotionally shot. And seeing this new unknown with the hope of the universe in her eyes, after he’s given up...he’s just nasty. I don’t think he’s wacky or deranged or demented. Just that he’s given up and a broken shell of who he once was.

 Paradigm wrote:
It's worth bearing in mind that there's about as much time between the new trilogy and RotJ as there is between AotC and RotJ. Luke is more than twice the age now he was at the end of the OT. There's plenty of time for radical shifts in personality and character there, especially given that he lives a life of heightened emotion and drama given his role as Jedi Master, war hero and sole remaining Jedi. And to quote his other famous role, 'all it takes is one bad day'.

Except his bad day happens after his bad deed.

Except they took the character least likely to fall in that particular manner and gave him the fell deed without indication of that character shift prior to the deed.

Except a radical shift in personality is necessary for perfectly selfish and immoral people to reflexively consider murdering their nephew while they are sleeping over fear of the future.

Show us this life of 'heightened emotion.' Heck, tell us about it. Per the story so far all of Luke's trauma has been as a result of his deed.



And honestly, people generally become more of who they are as time passes, not less.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I feel like Finn should be a much darker and more serious character, almost emotionally cold and callous, given that he was indoctrinated from a young age to be a Stormtrooper. He's a conscientious objector sure, but he should still be emotionally and mentally fethed up by his upbringing as a child soldier in a Totalitarian Military regime and his character Arc should be about healing and learning to develop compassion. I mean, he was basically in the Star Wars version of the Hitler Youth and Waffen SS.

Wait. Finn isn't a 'conscientious objector.' He freaked out about killing a village of civilians, but he has zero qualms about violence. He happily shot up his former comrades before/as he jumped ship, happily fought them in hand to hand, and happily tried to kill his commander in a burning hanger. As a sorta-kind member of the Resisty (he doesn't really commit to their cause, just rescuing Rey, fleeing for Rey and then wandering about looking for some guy after getting stunned), he doesn't at all act like a conscientious objector.

But you are right- he should have some effect of indoctrination and whatnot, not just more quips about being a janitor.

Finn had the potential to be an incredible asset to the trilogy. As someone who had presumably grown up with pro-First Order blinkers on he could have been used as a perfect exposition vehicle to lay out exactly what the situation with the Republic/Empire/Resistance/FO was. He could have offered some sort of insight into Snoke & Kylo.

And hell, maybe a concientous objector character would have been a novel twist. Someone who sees the eternal war between light and dark (Jedi vs Sith, various shades of Republic vs various shades of Empire etc) going back thousands of years for what it is and tries a new approach. Maybe his principled stand for peace inspires Rey to not seek the mantle of a Jedi to continue 'the war' but to finally try to balance the Force and 'end this destructive conflict'.

But hey, cowardice, janitor jokes and abject failure work too I guess.

The weird thing is he has more of a connection to Kylo aside from strange force powers. Heck, he has far more narrative connections in general compared to Rey.

Kylo raised by good parents, turned to evil through an inner turmoil while Finn was raised from a child to be apart of the First Order as part of it's program turned to good out of hatred for the senseless killing.

Could've turned out interesting if we had a main character who wasn't a force user, but the force user was a side character.

I'll throw in another voice of disappointment in the way they handled Finn's character. He could have been so cool, but they mired him down in minstrel show antics.

In my opinion, both Finn and Rey are very poorly written and handled characters. The actors are great and the characters could have been as well - but when you write characters for the sake of tokenism it ends up being pretty much just as boring and offensive as writing them as stereotypes.

I'd say they ARE stereo types. Aren't black people commonly used as comic relief? And Rey is your typical perfect white Disney princess.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I'd say they ARE stereo types. Aren't black people commonly used as comic relief? And Rey is your typical perfect white Disney princess.

I guess that's kind of what I meant. When you try to write characters as a reaction to stereotypes, they are still ultimately based on those stereotypes. They aren't multi-dimensional and interesting characters, they're just the black guy and the strong woman. But yes, Finn especially is pretty much a one-man minstrel show. It's possible that I'm off base and they wrote a comic relief character and then just happened to cast a black guy in the part, but it really would have been nice if there were more to the character either way.

Finn is a case study in wasted potential. I love the concept of a Stormtrooper defector, but they've completely wasted it.

It also would have been cool if he'd retained some of his Stormtrooper gear, like his E-11 Blaster Rifle, incorporated parts of his armour (a greave here, a vambrace there, a shoulder pad etc) into his new Rebel outfit, repainted in Rebel colours.

Something like Baze Malbus.

There's an Imperial Assault dude who does exactly that.

See, that guy looks pretty cool.