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Just to add to that: the movie put emphasis on these briefing because they show, too, without telling, that the rebels are not "empire with different color"*. They are more "democratic" if you wish, and show to their soldiers the reasons an attack is called.
Also it shows a smaller difference between the grunt and the high command.
Compare with how the empire is depicted. Orders are just given, troopers do not share the same space of the officers, more often than not. High stratification, blind loyality is expected. Or else. And pray you don't feth up.

Now watch the movie again and tell me to which one of the two organisations Holdo's behaviour is more similar.

And again, if the rebels are few hundreds, how is even possible Poe is unaware of who Holdo is until she is appointed.
Is just so contrived.

*I would argue that Holdo stems from the cynical view of the authors. Many parts of the movie suggest that for the writers, the rebels ARE just the empire with different colours.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Just to add to that: the movie put emphasis on these briefing because they show, too, without telling, that the rebels are not "empire with different color"*. They are more democratic and show to their soldiers the reasons an attack is called.
Also it shows a smaller difference between the grunt and the high command.
Compare with how the empire is shown. Orders are just given, troopers do not share the same space of the officers, more often than not. High stratification, blind loyality is expected. Or else. And pray you don't feth up.

Now watch the movie again and tell me to which one of the two organisations Holdo's behaviour is more similar.

And again, if the rebels are few hundreds, how is even possible Poe is unaware of who Holdo is until she is appointed.
Is just so contrived.

*I would argue that Holdo stems from the cynical view of the authors. Many parts of the movie suggest that for the writers, the rebels ARE just the empire with different colours.

Exactly! If you look at the last post on the previous page you can see four screen shots of plans being presented in previous movies.

All the people in those pictures were taking an active role in the plan being laid out and were being briefed immediately before the commencement of the plan.

There is zero need to brief people if they are not required to know. Poe was not necessary for the successful implementation of Holdo's plan. The whole ship would have been briefed on emergency evacuation procedures many times over and would be able to orderly load into the transports once it was time to do so, whether they had prior warning or not.

This is exactly what happens in the film, also. Poe attempts his mutiny, is knocked out and then everybody gets on the transports without any trouble.

 Overread wrote:
On the "just hyperdrive ahead" is easily explained. Hyperdrives likely can't work on short distances, so the First Order can't just leap ahead because the ship will leap so far ahead that the Rebel ship will run out of fuel before it even catches up. Similarly its space, so the Rebel ship could just take a change its angle; the First Order would have had to have built a net of additional ships ahead in order to block the path of the fleeting rebel ship.

It's a really good thing this is explained in the narrative, so that I have a reason to assume its validity. Instead of assuming it's a random internet-viewer's ass-pull to try to justify the bad writing and gloss over a plot hole larger than the Death Star.

Oh, wait, it is an internet-user's ass-pull to justify bad writing.

Oh. Back to square one.

 Lord Scythican wrote:


Exactly! If you look at the last post on the previous page you can see four screen shots of plans being presented in previous movies.

Yeah, I added to that. I should have quoted. Thank you for researching the pics, they make a way better point.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

There is zero need to brief people if they are not required to know. Poe was not necessary for the successful implementation of Holdo's plan. The whole ship would have been briefed on emergency evacuation procedures many times over and would be able to orderly load into the transports once it was time to do so, whether they had prior warning or not.

This is exactly what happens in the film, also. Poe attempts his mutiny, is knocked out and then everybody gets on the transports without any trouble.

Poe was a commander, not a grunt, even after demotion. Is really all built to create a false problem and make a point.
A point, I repeat, that the emperor would have loved.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Overread wrote:
On the "just hyperdrive ahead" is easily explained. Hyperdrives likely can't work on short distances, so the First Order can't just leap ahead because the ship will leap so far ahead that the Rebel ship will run out of fuel before it even catches up. Similarly its space, so the Rebel ship could just take a change its angle; the First Order would have had to have built a net of additional ships ahead in order to block the path of the fleeting rebel ship.

It's a really good thing this is explained in the narrative, so that I have a reason to assume its validity. Instead of assuming it's a random internet-viewer's ass-pull to try to justify the bad writing and gloss over a plot hole larger than the Death Star.

Oh, wait, it is an internet-user's ass-pull to justify bad writing.

Oh. Back to square one.

It isn't explained why they don't just hyperdrive to the obelisk in 2001, so do you have no reason to assume that they are capable of doing so but decide not to? Sometimes the absence of people doing something indicates that such a thing is impossible without it needing to be said.

Nowhere, in any of the films, have we ever been shown a hyperdrive being used for short jumps. Why didn't the Star Destroyers chasing the Millennium Falcon in ESB jump ahead of it? Does ESB now have a huge plot hole? Or is it more likely that the reason they don't do that kind of manoeuvre despite multiple instances of where it would be useful is, despite it not being stated, that such a manoeuvre is impossible?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Overread wrote:
On the "just hyperdrive ahead" is easily explained. Hyperdrives likely can't work on short distances, so the First Order can't just leap ahead because the ship will leap so far ahead that the Rebel ship will run out of fuel before it even catches up. Similarly its space, so the Rebel ship could just take a change its angle; the First Order would have had to have built a net of additional ships ahead in order to block the path of the fleeting rebel ship.

It's a really good thing this is explained in the narrative, so that I have a reason to assume its validity. Instead of assuming it's a random internet-viewer's ass-pull to try to justify the bad writing and gloss over a plot hole larger than the Death Star.

Oh, wait, it is an internet-user's ass-pull to justify bad writing.

Oh. Back to square one.

It isn't explained why they don't just hyperdrive to the obelisk in 2001, so do you have no reason to assume that they are capable of doing so but decide not to? Sometimes the absence of people doing something indicates that such a thing is impossible without it needing to be said.

Nowhere, in any of the films, have we ever been shown a hyperdrive being used for short jumps. Why didn't the Star Destroyers chasing the Millennium Falcon in ESB jump ahead of it? Does ESB now have a huge plot hole? Or is it more likely that the reason they don't do that kind of manoeuvre despite multiple instances of where it would be useful is, despite it not being stated, that such a manoeuvre is impossible?

The reason they don't hyperdrive to the monolith in 2001 is because they don't have hyperdrives. That's... kind of a silly thing to say, really. They even talk about how many months it takes to fly there. Really it's one of the hardest sci-fi movies I can think of.

And you could assume it's impossible for a whole variety of reasons. And yes, without rewatching ESB, if the star destroyers don't hyperspace in front of the Millenium Falcon, then it's a huge plot hole. At the time, I missed it, but I'll make sure to point it out next time people are talking about how awesome ESB is. This is without rewatching it, mind; there may be an actual reason that is onscreen that neither of us can remember.

And no, actually, I don't accept that it's impossible. Because there's no reason it would be impossible. I literally can't think of one. To assume it is because it's never been done is kind of silly. It's like saying "Oh, nuclear war is impossible because it's never been done." Just because it's never happened doesn't mean it couldn't happen, so when it becomes the obvious solution, then do it. Or, explain why you can't do it.

But nowhere is it outright stated in 2001 that they do not have hyperdrives. By your logic assuming that they don't is an internet ass-pull.

I can think of a reason for it to be impossible to complete small hyperspace jumps.

We assume that a ship must accelerate before it can enter hyperspace (as seen by the fact that the Rebel fleet accelerates visibly in ROTJ when it is jumping to the Death Star, The Star Destroyer accelerates visibly when leaving its rubbish behind in ESB, Wookieepedia also states that you can only enter hyperspace after accelerating to speeds exceeding the speed of light). So the Star Destroyer would have to accelerate to lightspeed before it could enter hyperspace. As such it will travel a long way before it enters hyperspace, then it would travel in hyperspace and then would have to decelerate and drop back out of hyperspace.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
But nowhere is it outright stated in 2001 that they do not have hyperdrives. By your logic assuming that they don't is an internet ass-pull.

Sorry but what kind of logic is this? You take a whole different movie, with none of the elements established in the movie discussed beyond "space", and arguably talking AIs, and use it as an example?
I don't follow the line of reasoning.

Also, if the FO has trackers, even if the jump can be close to the rebels but not TOO close (it makes sense, more in tune with the universe than the rest of the sequels) is just enough to hyperspace some star destroyers beyond, in line with the rebel route, and come back.
You create in this way a trap.
Rebel admirals will probably immediately recognize that is a trap (I trust at least one guy on that) and move in a different axis.
But now they are going out of fuel and not escaping in the direction they did choose. You put them in a lose-lose situation.

The reason that the ISD don't use hyper-drive to chase the falcon is simple. They were already in effective weapons range. They already had fighters on her tail. Then she flew into an asteroid field.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The reason that the ISD don't use hyper-drive to chase the falcon is simple. They were already in effective weapons range. They already had fighters on her tail. Then she flew into an asteroid field.

No no don't look at it in this way - you must have a "hidden reason" - why do you "hate" the film - what is "really" wrong with you. I know of course but I wonlt tell you, because reasons.

......... Just watch it and embrace the stupidness but then rail against it in any other film- then my son you will be a true film critic.

The hyperspace issues are just one of many many narrative problems which people will ignore because

a) To them its not a problem, they enjoyed it for what it was - fair enough

or

b) Flaws are not flaws they are just too clever for us stupid people to follow.

The falcon doesn't even have a functioning Hyperdrive for 90% of ESB.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Lord Scythican wrote:


Exactly! If you look at the last post on the previous page you can see four screen shots of plans being presented in previous movies.

Yeah, I added to that. I should have quoted. Thank you for researching the pics, they make a way better point.

Thanks! They were a little hard to find, especially for TFA. The prequels were a bit odd. I don't think those kind of meetings were used much. Most prequel meetings were the Jedi Council. It seems like they never really had a plan in those movies.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
But nowhere is it outright stated in 2001 that they do not have hyperdrives. By your logic assuming that they don't is an internet ass-pull.

If you can't see the difference between "Canon says they have hyperdrives, but we have to assume they don't use them because of 'contrived reasons that are never explained'." and "They don't have hyperdrives because it's hard sci-fi." then I don't know what to tell you.

*shrug*

Come on you're chasing someone in space, just use the Picard maneuver.

 Marmatag wrote:
Come on you're chasing someone in space, just use the Picard maneuver.

Actually the Picard manoeuvre is when you jump to warp speed for a micro second and thus cause a duplication to occur on your opponent's sensors, allowing you to get in a cheap shot, or to sneak away.


This doesn't work in Star Wars because they seem to fight their battles in visual range.

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Come on you're chasing someone in space, just use the Picard maneuver.

Actually the Picard manoeuvre is when you jump to warp speed for a micro second and thus cause a duplication to occur on your opponent's sensors, allowing you to get in a cheap shot, or to sneak away.


This doesn't work in Star Wars because they seem to fight their battles in visual range.

But the Picard manoeuvre also works in visual range. The display screen of the Enterprise visually shows two Stargazers when Picard uses it.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Come on you're chasing someone in space, just use the Picard maneuver.

Actually the Picard manoeuvre is when you jump to warp speed for a micro second and thus cause a duplication to occur on your opponent's sensors, allowing you to get in a cheap shot, or to sneak away.


This doesn't work in Star Wars because they seem to fight their battles in visual range.

But the Picard manoeuvre also works in visual range. The display screen of the Enterprise visually shows two Stargazers when Picard uses it.

Exactly, display screens. They have information relayed by the sensors which get confused and double them up.

It wouldn't work if they opened the window and looked out them.

But you might have problems with atmospheric containment at that point.

Well the sensors in the First Order can't detect the transports moving away under full power.

Sheesh - those writters.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Well the sensors in the First Order can't detect the transports moving away under full power.

Sheesh - those writters.

To be fair they didn't have their "scan for stealth ships" sensors on.

Though that's a whole 'nother can of worms (whywouldyoueverhavethatoff)

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Well the sensors in the First Order can't detect the transports moving away under full power.

Sheesh - those writters.

To be fair they didn't have their "scan for stealth ships" sensors on.

Though that's a whole 'nother can of worms (whywouldyoueverhavethatoff)

Or fighters keeping an eye on the dying Ship of Fools. The more you look at the film the worse it gets

Don't forget, Star Wars uses WW2 technology in space.

In RotS we literally have ships lined up side by side and broadsiding each other.

The First Order obviously haven't developed radar yet.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Don't forget, Star Wars uses WW2 technology in space.

In RotS we literally have ships lined up side by side and broadsiding each other.

The First Order obviously haven't developed radar yet.

It's even worse than that.

The casino-codebreaker-fellow is like "better turn on your scanners" so then they turn on their scanners, spot the transports, and start shooting.

It's literally "not developed Radar" it's "inexplicably leaving the radar off until someone not even in our chain of command offhandedly references it."

It just goes to show that no one in the Star Wars universe has common sense.

Maybe that's the truth of the force? Common sense manifesting as a physical construct?


Doesn't explain why the Jedi seem to lack of though.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Don't forget, Star Wars uses WW2 technology in space.

In RotS we literally have ships lined up side by side and broadsiding each other.

The First Order obviously haven't developed radar yet.

It's even worse than that.

The casino-codebreaker-fellow is like "better turn on your scanners" so then they turn on their scanners, spot the transports, and start shooting.

It's literally "not developed Radar" it's "inexplicably leaving the radar off until someone not even in our chain of command offhandedly references it."

Like I said - it was a fail plan all the time. If your planned relies on the enemy just being stupid. "Hopefully they have their scanners turned off" - it's a MGaking fail plan. Holdo is responsible for this fail plan because she didn't even consult her staff about it. Please continue to tell us how competent she is as a commander!

It sounds like a spaceballs scene:

"Aye boyo, you'd better turn on your radar." Said the codebreaker guy.

"Radar! Of course, we have radar!" facepalms Colonel donkey-cave.

"And this time there's no one to jam it!" replies Dark Helmet (flashback scene to the Spaceballs Jammed Radar gag)

"Turn on the radar!" calls Colonel donkey-cave, through his commlink.

- cut to bridge -

"Radar? He wants us to turn on the radar?"
"Ray-dahr. Ray - door. No, hm, doesn't ring a bell."
"Maybe he means the Whips, the Boops, and the Blaapts?" - cameo Radar Guy from the first Spaceballs.

Etc.

Maybe the Lego version will make more sense

Can't be worse

I'm fairly certain every time the escape ships are brought up, somebody says something about whatever they're using to hide them.

As Hux orders some goon to use a specific frequency or something to find them.

Or maybe they had scanners set to large and not small, at that point I was wondering whether we'd be shown Rey getting off of the capital ship or not.

If they didn't know to look for the transports as they slowly made their way to the only planet around, then why couldn't the transports just jump to hyperspace? They weren't looking for them anyway.

Some of the transports don't have hyperdrive.

The purpose of getting into the range of the planet was to allow the transports to get there in sub-light drive.