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I do hope they show something that's actually worth getting really excited about. I think the only really compelling thing they've shown so far is 45 point Spiritseers, which is good and playable but not, like, thrilling.

They said that Wraithguard and Lords are getting a minor buff. They said that Dire Avengers are cheaper, but of course they're so expensive that they could be "cheaper" and still be unplayable, and I doubt anyone is expecting them to get buffed to the level of standard Battle Sisters even. We know for sure that they're relying on things like stratagems to try to make Guardians better, so nobody is expecting a whole lot here.

I mean, there's been nothing so far that comes close to the reveal of the new Grinding Advance. What's going on with the currently-terrible grav tanks? Are Rangers any good? Are all of the bad Aspects like Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders and Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions getting some love?

So far it's hard not to feel like the codex will just be a buff to what I've already been doing. I want to feel like new possibilities for army creation are opening up. Show me something that makes me want to bring a ton of Aspect Warriors or grav tanks.

I remember reading back in 3rd ed that due to having so many aspect shrines, the proportion of guardians called up who actually had formal training (aka former aspects) was much higher. Didn't translate into stats though.

@pm - I was referencing the attribute. Reroll 1s on Shuriken weaponry help things like:
-Guardians
-Windriders (Cats or Cannons)
-WarWalkers (Cannons)
-Vypers (Cats or Cannons)
-Serpents (Cats or Cannons)
-Dire Avengers

Others (Fire Prisims, Banshees, etc) get some incidental gain but not much.

On that list, only Dire Avengers aren't Biel-Tan's militia.

Lack of source for fluff claiming Biel-Tan's militia being more skilled than Uthwe's standing army is the "joke".

Saim-Hann is up. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/19/craftworld-focus-saim-hann-oct-19gw-homepage-post-3/

We had it backwards:

Important to note that Vypers have been given the <Biker> keyword, so they will benefit from the attribute

And move-shot-move is back, but as a Stratagem

Oh hai:

Other news:

Windriders and Scatter Lasers are cheaper (how much??)
Vypers are a little cheaper and are BIKERS

Also, this is an excellent stratagem:

Not really worth it for hit and runs with most bikes but great for Wraithlords, among others. Also this plays really nicely with Ynnari.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Oh hai:

Sooo, Eldar just got the Tau crisis suits jump-shoot-jump ability? I imagine we'll see this used with Warp Spiders a good bit?

I would have thought Ynnari couldn't use Craftworld stratagems.

 Stormonu wrote:

Sooo, Eldar just got the Tau crisis suits jump-shoot-jump ability? I imagine we'll see this used with Warp Spiders a good bit?

No, they got the Eldar Jetbike jump-shoot-jump BACK, but this time it can apply to ANY Asuryani unit. I'm looking at tanks, Wraithlord and WKs for this one, maybe a large bike unit....or Dark Reapers

-

It's 1CP per use.

It'll be game-deciding not that infrequently. The one cluch Aspect is able to scoot out of harms way at just the right moment. But only one unit per term. At the cost of a CP.

Seems fun, awesome, and with strategic downsides. Plays right into how I play my CWE. Perfect!

pm713 wrote:
I would have thought Ynnari couldn't use Craftworld stratagems.

I mean, Grey Knights can make use of Space Marine stratagems as long as you have a Marine detachment.

Niiru wrote:

Red Corsair wrote:This thread is funny. Like every other thread nobody is happy until the stratagems are busted out. Seriously, it's the stratagems in every book that take things to the next level. Most traits from any of the books so far are not that great barring a select few.

For Imperial Guard, stratagems make a lot of difference. This is because they can easily get 15-25 CP's, and burn through 3 or 4 stratagems every turn.

Eldar... I dunno. I think the most I've gotten in my random list theory builds is 9 points total, and the list was very minmax and not very good. 7 or 8 is probably the more common end result, if not more like 5 or 6. Depends on if people bother with troops in their lists (which might become more useful in the codex with points drops etc).

Which means Eldar can use 3 or 4 stratagems PER GAME. Compared to IG using that many every turn.

Stratagems make a lot more of a difference to an IG army. For Eldar, they're just a novelty. Especially if they're all like that Avatar one, which is pretty situational and very expensive.

Sorry but this is so daft. I have been playing a ton of 40k against all the newest books as of late and sure some armies can spam CP's more then others but that isn't nearly what your making it out to be. Most books have a half dozen really glowing statagems and most of them are amazing because they are 1cp. Since you can only use them once a turn in matched play and some are situational, having 25 is totally unnecessary. Also, as a guy that ownbs a ton of guard going back to 2nd ed, thats a bullcrap claim as well. I can make a list that gets around 16 and that is with some major holes in my army, to get to 25 I'd be fielding garbage, something every army can do. You know how I know thats BS btw, because in matched play your stuck with 3 detachments meqaning you would need 3 brigades... Also you can try to claim 9 CP's somehow equates to 3-4 Strats per game.... but we both know what your doing there. It's more likely 8 or even 9 stratagems per game because we all know it's bullcrap that your gona burn your CP's on 3 point stratagems.

Basically, just relax and wait to see what really matters that they are not leaking. I am sure this book is going to be strong.

Dionysodorus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I would have thought Ynnari couldn't use Craftworld stratagems.

I mean, Grey Knights can make use of Space Marine stratagems as long as you have a Marine detachment.

Seems like a bad design choice to me.

Bharring wrote:
Seems fun, awesome, and with strategic downsides. Plays right into how I play my CWE. Perfect!

I agree. It's fluffy, useful, but not overpowered. Perfect indeed

 Stormonu wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Oh hai:

Sooo, Eldar just got the Tau crisis suits jump-shoot-jump ability? I imagine we'll see this used with Warp Spiders a good bit?

No the Eldar just got back proper Battlefocus as 1CP stratagem (albeit a bit stronger)

Also gotta love the wording, unless Wraith lost the Asuryani Keyword it means we can use this for slingshot them across a melee line.

So D-scythe wraithguard moves 5"+1d6 shoot then burn 1 CP to move 7" extra and bubble wrap X unit so the wraiths remain as only viable charging unit for the enemy... that can be really nasty

P.S: also seems the Fire Prism it's been *vastly Improved*.... we'll see it tomorrow

Loving it.

Dionysodorus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I would have thought Ynnari couldn't use Craftworld stratagems.

I mean, Grey Knights can make use of Space Marine stratagems as long as you have a Marine detachment.

They can make use of them in that the Stratagems can be used. There's no guarantee that it will actually affect you.

Isn't "Asuryani" the keyword that the Craftworld Eldar stuff has, while "Aeldari" is the shared racial keyword?

Lord Perversor wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Oh hai:

Sooo, Eldar just got the Tau crisis suits jump-shoot-jump ability? I imagine we'll see this used with Warp Spiders a good bit?

No the Eldar just got back proper Battlefocus as 1CP stratagem (albeit a bit stronger)

Also gotta love the wording, unless Wraith lost the Asuryani Keyword it means we can use this for slingshot them across a melee line.

So D-scythe wraithguard moves 5"+1d6 shoot then burn 1 CP to move 7" extra and bubble wrap X unit so the wraiths remain as only viable charging unit for the enemy... that can be really nasty

P.S: also seems the Fire Prism it's been *vastly Improved*.... we'll see it tomorrow

*twirls moustache like a villain*

I like your thinking.

It’s good that the move shoot move is back, and I think it’s right that they have made it a strategem. That way it won’t become an overused and obnoxious gimmick.

pm713 wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I would have thought Ynnari couldn't use Craftworld stratagems.

I mean, Grey Knights can make use of Space Marine stratagems as long as you have a Marine detachment.

Seems like a bad design choice to me.

His statement is a bit of a misnomer.

Grey Knights can, possibly, be affected by Space Marine stratagems that affect keyword "Adeptus Astartes" stuff. They can't be affected by anything that is specific to the Chapters or units like Predators and Sternguard.

There was something that cropped up on the Community Facebook relatively recently I think it was where someone asked if the Alpha Legion Stratagem "Tide of Traitors" would affect Death Guard Cultists and they replied that yes, it would since it just affected keyword "Cultist" not Alpha Legion specifically. That has since given rise to this kind of thinking.

pm713 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Part of the Biel Tan trait affects their Aspect Warriors. The other part does nothing or very little for most Aspect Warriors.
If you wanted a rule for better militia then it would be under Ulthwe because they actually have that rather than FNP.

Didn't they say that Black Guardians is a Stratagem for Ulthwe?

I think that's a pretty nice setup personally.

Same with the Craftworld trait. It's less "FNP" and more "Fate Roll"-ish .

So the Black Guardians are better trained....for a little while. Then they're the same. That's a terrible way of representing better training.

It's FNP. It's just a flat durability increase with nothing actually related to Seers. The increase in Seers was better represented by having psykers everywhere. Which with these traits would be turned to something like a boost to casting powers affecting your army.

That's basically not true at all. What does the Fortune psychic power do? 5+ FNP. This trait is exactly the same (but on a 6) and can be attributed to the innate psychic ability of the Craftworld.

As expected, and it's "okay". The stratagem is good and will see a lot of clutch use I'm sure. Considering I'm about to build a Fire Prism I sure hope it is vastly improved (sadly they haven't mentioned Falcons...which are hurting the most).

 General Kroll wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
I agree with the Red Corsair, there’s way too much hyperbole in this thread. It seems that unless something is OP, it’s always considered “Garbage.”

It’s no surprise to me that the new Eldar codex hasn’t given tonnes of free buffs. The amount of whining about Eldar as an army in 7th has clearly had an influence on the design team, and while they haven’t nerfed them completely, they have tried to balance things out a little.

Then you and Red Corsair havn't been paying much attention. In and of themselves the traits shown off so far aren't bad, in fact on the right army builds they can be verry good, the problem that most of us are complaining about is that the traits don't particularly fit the fluff of the Craftworlds they are being paired with in a way that makes realistic sense. I mean Iyanden having a trait that favours large blobs of Guardians is moronic, that trait is good but better characterises Ulthwe or Alaitoc.

And as for Strategems Red Corsair will probably be proved to be very wrong, because unless our troops choices have had a massive points drop on all of them we wont be using them often, which means command points will be in short supply even with the Autarchs ability to get some back.

Nope, I’ve been paying attention and fully understand the concerns you have raised about the traits. I just don’t agree. In a competitive sense, the traits could be utilised to greater affect for different units than those intended. However, that doesn’t make them unfluffy, or indeed moronic (there we go with that hyperbole again)

The Iyanden trait, combined with their relic, makes their wrait units tougher, even if it in a hyper competitive meta it won’t make a huge difference.
The Ulthwé trait, again gives a sense of psychic support in that it’s basically quasi fortune.
The Biel Tan trait specifically affects their Aspect warriors, while at the same time showing that their militia is likely some of the best trained.

The leaked Samm Hain and Alaitoc traits also seem pretty fluffy too.

To me the traits are a little overly simplistic, and that’s why in some cases they could be used in a different way than intended. But I think they are like that for a reason. It’s far easier to balance the game if you keep things simple. Guard seems to have bucked the trend so far and over stepped the power mark a little.

As for strategems, they can still add plenty of flavour, even if you’re not using a dozen of them in a game.

That was not hyperbole, that was me being acurate.

The Iyanden trait does not make Wraith units tougher (their base toughnes stat being increased to 6 makes them tougher), Wraithguard are never run in large squads due to the need for transports so at Ld9 the triat will never effect them, and 10 man Wraithblade squads have better options for survivability (the Ulthwe trait for starters). And the relic doesn't make them tougher, it makes them hit harder once per game then take mortal wounds.
No, the Ulthwe trait gives everything FnP, does absolutely nothing to boost Pyskers so gives no impression of extra pyschic support, and at present it actually physically stops Fortune from working in an Ulthwe army due to units with a similar ability being untargetable for that power. So, actively reduces Psychic support since Fortune is better than the trait.
+1Ld, WOW, suddenly Aspects are amazing! The only Aspect that actually gains out of this is Dire Avengers, the only other Apects likely to be run in large enough squads (Banshees and Scorpions) struggle for killing power so much you don't use them. And nothing in Biel-Tan's fluff says they have better trained Guardians, thats Ulthwe.

Saim-Hann's trait is very fluffy for them, I'll certainly agree to that.

I disagree on Alaitoc, they might be known as the Ranger Craftworld but their standing Warhost doesn't rely on a core of Rangers, it's a core of Guardians with Aspect support. They're probably the most generalist of the big 5 Craftworlds, they just have a higher proportion of affiliated Rangers.

When I have to use the Ulthwe trait to get the most out of my Wraith army, you know something has gone wrong.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I would have thought Ynnari couldn't use Craftworld stratagems.

I mean, Grey Knights can make use of Space Marine stratagems as long as you have a Marine detachment.

They can make use of them in that the Stratagems can be used. There's no guarantee that it will actually affect you.

Isn't "Asuryani" the keyword that the Craftworld Eldar stuff has, while "Aeldari" is the shared racial keyword?

Right. So you can't use it on your Ynnari Kabalites, but it'll work on your Ynnari Wraithguard. And it's fantastic for them, right? The big problem with Ynnari Wraithguard is that they're too powerful -- often they only need one volley to kill everything in range. Being able to move another 7" to set up for their Soulburst is great.

I'm still waiting to see if there is a "Webway" stratagem that allows a unit to 'deepstrike'. If it exists, I'll breathe a sigh of relief.
Until then, Eldar are "ok" and probably still "fun" but hardly tournament worthy in the current meta.

-

 Galef wrote:
I'm still waiting to see if there is a "Webway" stratagem that allows a unit to 'deepstrike'. If it exists, I'll breathe a sigh of relief.
Until then, Eldar are "ok" and probably still "fun" but hardly tournament worthy in the current meta.

-

Yes this will be really important. I am worried that this will just be the Alatoic infiltration stratagem, which would be far less useful.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I would have thought Ynnari couldn't use Craftworld stratagems.

I mean, Grey Knights can make use of Space Marine stratagems as long as you have a Marine detachment.

They can make use of them in that the Stratagems can be used. There's no guarantee that it will actually affect you.

Isn't "Asuryani" the keyword that the Craftworld Eldar stuff has, while "Aeldari" is the shared racial keyword?

Yup. Means that you wouldn't be able to cast the stratagem on Yvraine. But you'd still be able to cast it on any other craftworld unit you have in a ynnari force, as they don't lose their Asuryani keyword, they just gain Ynnari on top of it.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I would have thought Ynnari couldn't use Craftworld stratagems.

I mean, Grey Knights can make use of Space Marine stratagems as long as you have a Marine detachment.

They can make use of them in that the Stratagems can be used. There's no guarantee that it will actually affect you.

Isn't "Asuryani" the keyword that the Craftworld Eldar stuff has, while "Aeldari" is the shared racial keyword?

Right. So you can't use it on your Ynnari Kabalites, but it'll work on your Ynnari Wraithguard. And it's fantastic for them, right? The big problem with Ynnari Wraithguard is that they're too powerful -- often they only need one volley to kill everything in range. Being able to move another 7" to set up for their Soulburst is great.

The point you're missing is that there is no guarantee that Ynnari units will retain the Asuryani keyword.

 Galef wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

Sooo, Eldar just got the Tau crisis suits jump-shoot-jump ability? I imagine we'll see this used with Warp Spiders a good bit?

No, they got the Eldar Jetbike jump-shoot-jump BACK, but this time it can apply to ANY Asuryani unit. I'm looking at tanks, Wraithlord and WKs for this one, maybe a large bike unit....or Dark Reapers

-

The only thing i noticed 2nd time through, is that the stratagem seems to appear to require the unit to shoot before it can then move again.

If this is the case (certainly reads to be) then Wraithblades won't be able to use it at all, and other units with short range weapons likely won't be able to use it early on either.

Something to be potentially aware of.

 bullyboy wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Part of the Biel Tan trait affects their Aspect Warriors. The other part does nothing or very little for most Aspect Warriors.
If you wanted a rule for better militia then it would be under Ulthwe because they actually have that rather than FNP.

Didn't they say that Black Guardians is a Stratagem for Ulthwe?

I think that's a pretty nice setup personally.

Same with the Craftworld trait. It's less "FNP" and more "Fate Roll"-ish .

So the Black Guardians are better trained....for a little while. Then they're the same. That's a terrible way of representing better training.

It's FNP. It's just a flat durability increase with nothing actually related to Seers. The increase in Seers was better represented by having psykers everywhere. Which with these traits would be turned to something like a boost to casting powers affecting your army.

That's basically not true at all. What does the Fortune psychic power do? 5+ FNP. This trait is exactly the same (but on a 6) and can be attributed to the innate psychic ability of the Craftworld.

It's completely true. Feel no Pain was an extra save after armour/cover/invuls. What do Fortune and the Ulthwe trait do? They give you a save after armour and invuls.

The innate Psychic ability that all Eldar have. That nowhere else appears in this way....

It's a FNP save and GW made a lazy explanation for their lazy rule.