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 Korlandril wrote:
OP updated.

From some of the posts I am reading people seem to be misinterpreting the fluff when they say some of these are unfluffy or don't make sense.

Biel-tan for example is known for having a lot of Aspect warriors. They are not known for having superior aspect warriors so this may be why they only get a +1 LD which is still good. Not saying the attributes are perfect but I think people should read up on the fluff first a bit more as their impression of it differs to mine.

Also the point has been made already but we haven't seen all the relics or the warlord traits yet and these with what we have seen already make up the entire rules for a given Craftworld. In actuality we have seen only half of each Craftworld, the attribute and a stratagem so maybe not be so salty just yet until we have seen everything?

They are also known for using the likes of Autarch's and The Avatar. Guess what happens if you make use of these units? Biel-Tan's already underwhelming trait becomes obsolete. Nobody is getting excited about +1Ld in this edition.

As for having more of but not better aspect warriors, you could say the same things about many other traits in place for other armies but it doesn't stop them receiving some nice thematic traits. As things stand Biel-Tan's trait is very poor for an Aspect Warrior based army and fairly pointless for one supported by an Autarch/The Avatar, hence the disappointment.

Thats not to say i was after something overpowered, I always build my lists with a theme and regularly hamstring myself to stick to it. I'm simply underwhelmed by what has been provided and i'll not be using it unless their Warlord Trait/Relic are something pretty special or interesting.

 Elbows wrote:
I wanted GW to take a much indepth approach to army building with various IG regiments or Eldar Craftworlds or Tyranid Hive Fleets, etc. The "use the codex...here's your trait" does nothing to promote a different feel to an army. It might adjust your playstyle slightly or make you favour one unit over the others, but I was really hoping more effort would be put into creating new army lists.

Do we know that the warlord traits aren't going to make certain units troops yet?

Sadly, I'm terribly aware that an army list which doesn't allow X unit = GW can't sell you that model/unit.

This may or may not be part of the reason but the fact is they already opened up these armies. If GW restricts again they would invalidate people's collections potentially. I think more freedom is great you can run your army how you want.

I don't and struggle to see much of a problem in this, unless you want to control other people's collections which isn't going to happen. Focus on the things you have control over like what you collect and who you play and you can have a great deal of enjoyment from the hobby.

 DivineVisitor wrote:

They are also known for using the likes of Autarch's and The Avatar. Guess what happens if you make use of these units? Biel-Tan's already underwhelming trait becomes obsolete. Nobody is getting excited about +1Ld in this edition.

As for having more of but not better aspect warriors, you could say the same things about many other traits in place for other armies but it doesn't stop them some nice thematic traits. As things stand Biel-Tan's trait is very poor for an Aspect Warrior based army and fairly pointless for one supported by an Autarch/The Avatar,i understand the disappointment.

Look at it another way...you no longer need pay an Autarch tax to chaperone certain units and can instead spend those points on Asurmen to support two squads of Dire Avengers (assuming he retains his special ability).

I have always found it a bit awkward incorporating the Avatar into a mechanised Swordwind force. He might work a bit better in a footdar force but that doesn't really fit the Swordwind ethos.

+1 Ld might be a bit 'meh' but it de-risks an Aspect heavy list from the vagaries of the dice. It might not be game winning but it can certainly prevent a game losing roll.

If that's the case, ALL Biel-Tan Aspect Warriors should have No Fear, automatically pass morale tests.

I've been taking a second look at the "re-roll all 1's for shuriken weaponry"... while the Autarch does give a better version of this, it is only within his bubble and you have to pay for him in your list. Also doesn't work on vehicle he is riding in, etc.

I wonder how much use this can actually get in a list.

 Enigma of the Absolute wrote:

 DivineVisitor wrote:

They are also known for using the likes of Autarch's and The Avatar. Guess what happens if you make use of these units? Biel-Tan's already underwhelming trait becomes obsolete. Nobody is getting excited about +1Ld in this edition.

As for having more of but not better aspect warriors, you could say the same things about many other traits in place for other armies but it doesn't stop them some nice thematic traits. As things stand Biel-Tan's trait is very poor for an Aspect Warrior based army and fairly pointless for one supported by an Autarch/The Avatar,i understand the disappointment.

Look at it another way...you no longer need pay an Autarch tax to chaperone certain units and can instead spend those points on Asurmen to support two squads of Dire Avengers (assuming he retains his special ability).

I have always found it a bit awkward incorporating the Avatar into a mechanised Swordwind force. He might work a bit better in a footdar force but that doesn't really fit the Swordwind ethos.

+1 Ld might be a bit 'meh' but it de-risks an Aspect heavy list from the vagaries of the dice. It might not be game winning but it can certainly prevent a game losing roll.

Sorry but i disagree, keeping in mind im specifically talking about an Aspect Warrior heavy army which i had hopes for being better represented by Biel-Tan. I for one was not bringing an Autarch because i needed more reliable Shuriken weaponry, He's brought in for the versatility of providing re-roll 1's for all shooting and combat, for that he is still needed.

And when you have The Avatar providing a 24 inch diameter bubble centered on him which allows any unit in range to ignore morale +1 Ld is very rarely going to come into play. I have yet to lose a model to morale in the games i've played.

On the occasion where morale could come up an Aspect Warrior heavy army would be better off with the Ulthwe or Alaitoc trait which are likely to keep an extra model alive, thus lowering any subsequent morale test you would be required to be take.

Biel-tan isn't awful if you're only ever bringing shuriken weapons. An Autarch has to buff a huge number of units to be worth his points for the aura alone.

The big drawback to it is just that it does very little to nothing for most units. Biel-tan is a perfectly solid choice for a detachment with only cheap Serpents and Guardians/Avengers. If there's a generic deep strike stratagem then a really good addition to any other Eldar list would be a Biel-tan Battalion with 2 non-Autarch HQs, a Serpent with 2 small units of Dire Avengers inside, and then a deep-striking unit of Guardians. This is ~400 points for 2 net CP and some really solid firepower and psychic support. Without such a stratagem it's a little harder to find a good third Troops choice unless you want to spring for another Serpent.

I doubt the Attribute makes sense for Windriders and light vehicles, though. These need something to help them not get blown to pieces turn 1. Barring massive changes, Windriders are still going to be two-wound T4 models without an invulnerable save. They're a prime target and you need to harden them. But it's not like the trait is doing nothing for you here.

It's just that you absolutely need another detachment for the rest of your army, especially any anti-tank. It's a very strange Attribute which is only actually a big deal for probably 3 units in the entire codex.

This thread is funny. Like every other thread nobody is happy until the stratagems are busted out. Seriously, it's the stratagems in every book that take things to the next level. Most traits from any of the books so far are not that great barring a select few.

Question: Does the Biel-Tan sword wind rule apply to all shuriken weapons or just aspect warriors wielding them? because from my understanding it only applies to Aspect warriors wielding shuriken weapons. If it applies to all shuriken based weapons then I think its the best rule since sliced bread but if it isn't then I'm sad.

 Eldrad wrote:
Question: Does the Biel-Tan sword wind rule apply to all shuriken weapons or just aspect warriors wielding them? because from my understanding it only applies to Aspect warriors wielding shuriken weapons. If it applies to all shuriken based weapons then I think its the best rule since sliced bread but if it isn't then I'm sad.

Where Swordwind really comes into its own is with shuriken weaponry. Nearly every Craftworlds unit or vehicle has access to a shuriken weapon of some form or another,

Red Corsair wrote:This thread is funny. Like every other thread nobody is happy until the stratagems are busted out. Seriously, it's the stratagems in every book that take things to the next level. Most traits from any of the books so far are not that great barring a select few.

For Imperial Guard, stratagems make a lot of difference. This is because they can easily get 15-25 CP's, and burn through 3 or 4 stratagems every turn.

Eldar... I dunno. I think the most I've gotten in my random list theory builds is 9 points total, and the list was very minmax and not very good. 7 or 8 is probably the more common end result, if not more like 5 or 6. Depends on if people bother with troops in their lists (which might become more useful in the codex with points drops etc).

Which means Eldar can use 3 or 4 stratagems PER GAME. Compared to IG using that many every turn.

Stratagems make a lot more of a difference to an IG army. For Eldar, they're just a novelty. Especially if they're all like that Avatar one, which is pretty situational and very expensive.

Eldrad wrote:Question: Does the Biel-Tan sword wind rule apply to all shuriken weapons or just aspect warriors wielding them? because from my understanding it only applies to Aspect warriors wielding shuriken weapons. If it applies to all shuriken based weapons then I think its the best rule since sliced bread but if it isn't then I'm sad.

All Shuriken weapons. Every single one. Which makes it interesting. Will take some testing and mathammer etc to find out how useful it actually is. Might be garbage, might be deadly. Hard to say. I currently tend to pick shuriken cannons on everything that can take them, as it's the cheapest option and lets you move still. With some dire avengers in the mix...

 Red Corsair wrote:
This thread is funny. Like every other thread nobody is happy until the stratagems are busted out. Seriously, it's the stratagems in every book that take things to the next level. Most traits from any of the books so far are not that great barring a select few.

I'm not complaining about the power level (maybe the difference in power level between them internally), but the fluff mismatch. The worst one is that Biel-Tan hardly encourages you to play aspects at all, when they're the most prolific users of them in the fluff. Meanwhile Iyanden, with few living inhabitants left, gets a rule encouraging them to take huge blob units? Ulthwé is about Guardians and psykers, but you wouldn't guess it from the trait.

It's not all bad though, Biel-Tan buffs Dire Avengers, which is fitting. More leadership for aspects is fluffy, if not very useful. Iyanden's less degenerating stats is fluffy. On the whole, though, these traits aren't conducive to each craftworld's traditional army composition.

Biggest disappointment for me in the treatment of Biel Tan (as we have so far seen) is the lack of any real rule that would support the fracture that just occurred. They should be pissed as all hell (remember they were the most warlike to begin with....now break their home......). Give me an expansion of the fluff in a meaningful way on the table top rather than just the same old Biel tan.

What if the trait does represent the fracture? Perhaps Ynarri have become the predominantly Aspect force. Plastics when they get a codex etc.

Goes on sale Friday, right? Figured we would have some leaks today/tomorrow...

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Goes on sale Friday, right? Figured we would have some leaks today/tomorrow...

Pre-order is Friday, realistically leaks will appear early next week

 Red Corsair wrote:
This thread is funny. Like every other thread nobody is happy until the stratagems are busted out. Seriously, it's the stratagems in every book that take things to the next level. Most traits from any of the books so far are not that great barring a select few.

Eh.. Most traits are garbage, but the good ones are usually broken great.
Stratagems... mostly take them or leave them, don't really care.

The ones they're showing off for eldar are amazingly bad. Or like the Court of the Young King, meh and contrary to any established fluff. The Court are Exarchs escorting the avatar. Not any old pack of aspect warriors that happen to have a sergeant can charge faster as if they were orks painted red.

But that's the only thing so far that actually supports the Biel Tan emphasis on Aspects. Everything else is, yeah, take whatever. It's fine. [And probably more a guardian army than Ulthwe, since the 6++ they get matters more to expensive stuff.


Though I'd still take Iyanden so far as traits go.


Amused by the offhand mention of avengers and their cats being cheaper, while being pictured next to a stratagem that works with anything

I agree with the Red Corsair, there’s way too much hyperbole in this thread. It seems that unless something is OP, it’s always considered “Garbage.”

It’s no surprise to me that the new Eldar codex hasn’t given tonnes of free buffs. The amount of whining about Eldar as an army in 7th has clearly had an influence on the design team, and while they haven’t nerfed them completely, they have tried to balance things out a little.

 General Kroll wrote:
I agree with the Red Corsair, there’s way too much hyperbole in this thread. It seems that unless something is OP, it’s always considered “Garbage.”

It’s no surprise to me that the new Eldar codex hasn’t given tonnes of free buffs. The amount of whining about Eldar as an army in 7th has clearly had an influence on the design team, and while they haven’t nerfed them completely, they have tried to balance things out a little.

Then you and Red Corsair havn't been paying much attention. In and of themselves the traits shown off so far aren't bad, in fact on the right army builds they can be verry good, the problem that most of us are complaining about is that the traits don't particularly fit the fluff of the Craftworlds they are being paired with in a way that makes realistic sense. I mean Iyanden having a trait that favours large blobs of Guardians is moronic, that trait is good but better characterises Ulthwe or Alaitoc.

And as for Strategems Red Corsair will probably be proved to be very wrong, because unless our troops choices have had a massive points drop on all of them we wont be using them often, which means command points will be in short supply even with the Autarchs ability to get some back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xttz wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Goes on sale Friday, right? Figured we would have some leaks today/tomorrow...

Pre-order is Friday, realistically leaks will appear early next week

Saturday, it's always a Saturday.

Niiru wrote:
Eldar... I dunno. I think the most I've gotten in my random list theory builds is 9 points total, and the list was very minmax and not very good. 7 or 8 is probably the more common end result, if not more like 5 or 6. Depends on if people bother with troops in their lists (which might become more useful in the codex with points drops etc).

Seriously. It's hard to come up with an Eldar list that has a decent amount of CP, and we've already confirmed Guardians aren't dropping in points so I don't see that changing much unless the Dire Avenger point swing is massive.

 Imateria wrote:

And as for Strategems Red Corsair will probably be proved to be very wrong, because unless our troops choices have had a massive points drop on all of them we wont be using them often, which means command points will be in short supply even with the Autarchs ability to get some back.

I don't think this is quite right. It's very easy for an Eldar army to get 10 CP if it wants it, now that they have a worthwhile cheap HQ in the Spiritseer. You have your main Battalion, then you have a 1 CP Detachment, and then you pick up a 195 point Battalion consisting of 2 Spiritseers and 3 small squads of Kabalite Warriors that you're going to use to screen and hold backfield objectives. Even if you don't want to use Craftworld Troops at all this is an easy 8. That's about what most other armies are looking at from detachments. What really puts Imperium over the top is that Guilliman provides +3 and then +50%, or Guard can get 1 for every 3 stratagems the other player uses and then +50%.

Quark wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Eldar... I dunno. I think the most I've gotten in my random list theory builds is 9 points total, and the list was very minmax and not very good. 7 or 8 is probably the more common end result, if not more like 5 or 6. Depends on if people bother with troops in their lists (which might become more useful in the codex with points drops etc).

Seriously. It's hard to come up with an Eldar list that has a decent amount of CP, and we've already confirmed Guardians aren't dropping in points so I don't see that changing much unless the Dire Avenger point swing is massive.

Apart from the Guard and many people consider that this codex is the problem at the moment are the elder radically different from other codex or even Index armies in this regard.

Given that the Traits/ attributes etc should NOT be too powerful when compared to other codexes (or looking at the power boost over non Codex armies) then the options for the rules team were limited but perhaps they should have thought about which Craftworld has which trait more.

 Imateria wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
I agree with the Red Corsair, there’s way too much hyperbole in this thread. It seems that unless something is OP, it’s always considered “Garbage.”

It’s no surprise to me that the new Eldar codex hasn’t given tonnes of free buffs. The amount of whining about Eldar as an army in 7th has clearly had an influence on the design team, and while they haven’t nerfed them completely, they have tried to balance things out a little.

Then you and Red Corsair havn't been paying much attention. In and of themselves the traits shown off so far aren't bad, in fact on the right army builds they can be verry good, the problem that most of us are complaining about is that the traits don't particularly fit the fluff of the Craftworlds they are being paired with in a way that makes realistic sense. I mean Iyanden having a trait that favours large blobs of Guardians is moronic, that trait is good but better characterises Ulthwe or Alaitoc.

And as for Strategems Red Corsair will probably be proved to be very wrong, because unless our troops choices have had a massive points drop on all of them we wont be using them often, which means command points will be in short supply even with the Autarchs ability to get some back.

Nope, I’ve been paying attention and fully understand the concerns you have raised about the traits. I just don’t agree. In a competitive sense, the traits could be utilised to greater affect for different units than those intended. However, that doesn’t make them unfluffy, or indeed moronic (there we go with that hyperbole again)

The Iyanden trait, combined with their relic, makes their wrait units tougher, even if it in a hyper competitive meta it won’t make a huge difference.
The Ulthwé trait, again gives a sense of psychic support in that it’s basically quasi fortune.
The Biel Tan trait specifically affects their Aspect warriors, while at the same time showing that their militia is likely some of the best trained.

The leaked Samm Hain and Alaitoc traits also seem pretty fluffy too.

To me the traits are a little overly simplistic, and that’s why in some cases they could be used in a different way than intended. But I think they are like that for a reason. It’s far easier to balance the game if you keep things simple. Guard seems to have bucked the trend so far and over stepped the power mark a little.

As for strategems, they can still add plenty of flavour, even if you’re not using a dozen of them in a game.

Part of the Biel Tan trait affects their Aspect Warriors. The other part does nothing or very little for most Aspect Warriors.
If you wanted a rule for better militia then it would be under Ulthwe because they actually have that rather than FNP.

pm713 wrote:
Part of the Biel Tan trait affects their Aspect Warriors. The other part does nothing or very little for most Aspect Warriors.
If you wanted a rule for better militia then it would be under Ulthwe because they actually have that rather than FNP.

Didn't they say that Black Guardians is a Stratagem for Ulthwe?

I think that's a pretty nice setup personally.

Same with the Craftworld trait. It's less "FNP" and more "Fate Roll"-ish .

About using Asurmen. I hope they specifically allow Phoenix Lords in <Craftworld> detatchments.

It's easy to miss, but the Phoenix Lords do not have <Craftworld> (so Asurmen cannot be Biel-Tan, or anything else).

I hope they keep it that way (the Phoenix Lords aren't like Autarchs and Farseers - they belong to the Asurayni not the Craftworld). But I hope they specify they can be part of <Craftworld> detatchments. That way, they don't stop you from playing Uthwe or Biel-Tan led by one, but they also don't get a trait they shouldn't get.

Wouldn't be the end of the world if they didn't.

Bharring wrote:
About using Asurmen. I hope they specifically allow Phoenix Lords in <Craftworld> detatchments.

It's easy to miss, but the Phoenix Lords do not have <Craftworld> (so Asurmen cannot be Biel-Tan, or anything else).

I hope they keep it that way (the Phoenix Lords aren't like Autarchs and Farseers - they belong to the Asurayni not the Craftworld). But I hope they specify they can be part of <Craftworld> detatchments. That way, they don't stop you from playing Uthwe or Biel-Tan led by one, but they also don't get a trait they shouldn't get.

Wouldn't be the end of the world if they didn't.

I would say that this is almost certain, or at least that it'll get faq'd to be possible very quickly. This has been the standard treatment for in-faction units with no subfaction, such as Fabius Bile and Commissars.

 Kanluwen wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Part of the Biel Tan trait affects their Aspect Warriors. The other part does nothing or very little for most Aspect Warriors.
If you wanted a rule for better militia then it would be under Ulthwe because they actually have that rather than FNP.

Didn't they say that Black Guardians is a Stratagem for Ulthwe?

I think that's a pretty nice setup personally.

Same with the Craftworld trait. It's less "FNP" and more "Fate Roll"-ish .

So the Black Guardians are better trained....for a little while. Then they're the same. That's a terrible way of representing better training.

It's FNP. It's just a flat durability increase with nothing actually related to Seers. The increase in Seers was better represented by having psykers everywhere. Which with these traits would be turned to something like a boost to casting powers affecting your army.

Whereas Biel-Tan's militia is better trained than Uthwe's standing army (Black Guardians are somewhere between militia and an aspect).

Source? I've never heard anything about Biel Tan having above average Guardians.