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Hilariously, it seems like Biel-Tan will be the best craftworld for a Saim-Haan army.

I really wanted to try Eldar as I loved the original models back in the days, but this feels like because a specific build of Eldar was dominating, they've beaten it with the nerf stick/bat/tree/mini-nuke until it's 'acceptable' to the other players.

This is the issue with any game that involves different sides, someone will find a way to dominate with an army, then that will get nerfed to hell, while the other sides get buffs. Then that army is the weakest around, and gets buffs, and the latest dominating army gets nerfed. It's this massive merry-go-round.

Bharring wrote:
No, Biel-Tan doesn't give Biel-Tan a baked-in 'Plague Weapon'. It gives non-Biel-Tan forces that use Biel-Tan's attribute 'Plague Weapon'.

As has been posted, the majority of units that don't benefit from it are the units SwordWind is based upon. Aspects. Only Dire Avengers get any real benefit from that. That's why it's terrible for Biel-Tan: sounds good, sounds similar to what they need, but implemented in a way that makes it mostly help non-Biel-Tan forces.

It's almost as if...

they were trying to get players away from running monotheme armies with everything min-maxed to supporting that theme,

Alcibiades wrote:

Bharring wrote:
No, Biel-Tan doesn't give Biel-Tan a baked-in 'Plague Weapon'. It gives non-Biel-Tan forces that use Biel-Tan's attribute 'Plague Weapon'.

As has been posted, the majority of units that don't benefit from it are the units SwordWind is based upon. Aspects. Only Dire Avengers get any real benefit from that. That's why it's terrible for Biel-Tan: sounds good, sounds similar to what they need, but implemented in a way that makes it mostly help non-Biel-Tan forces.

It's almost as if...

they were trying to get players away from running monotheme armies with everything min-maxed to supporting that theme,

This seems like a weird reaction to GW revealing a trait which is only of significant benefit to a handful of units. Like, I understand why you're responding to the person's post this way, but you probably should have stopped to realize that the reason the trait doesn't work well for the traditional Biel-tan theme is that it's bizarrely focused on an even narrower theme.

It’s almost as if they’re bound to fail miserably if that’s their intent. They’re still going to end up with the same themes, just used under different craftworld names that only matter on paper. The entire intent of sub factions to different armies is to promote more specific themes in the first place, otherwise there would be no craftworlds, legions, chapters, etc.

Asurman and Avatar escorting avengers across the field... Biel-Tan?

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Prodigalson wrote:
Why don't we wait for the entire codex, before people freak. I have found that if you look at the Trait/Strategim/Relic/Warlord trait they tend to work out fairly well. The sky isn't falling until you have the book in hand. The Legion trait isn't great for Iron Warriors, but their Relic and their Warlord trait are really solid choices.

Look at whole board.

I think this has mostly not been true. The SM codex is all about Ultramarines, with Raven Guard a distant second. Chaos lists are overwhelmingly Alpha Legion. AdMech basically forces you to play Mars.

Too much net listing on the brain. Abaddon is no joke. Neither is a DP that can't be picked out with a 2+ and healing 1 wound a turn.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Can’t take jet bikes “yet”...

It will happen when Wraithguard can take jetbikes, and Wraithlords get very big jetbikes, and we get rules for Craftworld Saim-Iyan.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Asurman and Avatar escorting avengers across the field... Biel-Tan?

Yes, this! I have been working around with lists all morning (as much as I can, not knowing the new avenger costs). I want to run this across the board, and have a squad of dark reapers walking up with them, getting that 5++ from asurman. Toss in a warlock to give them all conceal, and (while expensive) I think it could be a fun gunline list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:


It will happen when Wraithguard can take jetbikes, and Wraithlords get very big jetbikes, and we get rules for Craftworld Saim-Iyan.

Let me know once the Iyan-Tan list comes out with aspect wraiths

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
As a pseudo-Biel-Tan player, the Biel-Tan bonus is not at all what I had been hoping for - the shuriken buff is more for Guardians than Aspects, and Aspects didn't really need +1 Ld. Aspects simply should have re-rolled ALL 1s.

And yet you can add 3 to a charge and reroll all hits if you're near an avatar.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
As a pseudo-Biel-Tan player, the Biel-Tan bonus is not at all what I had been hoping for - the shuriken buff is more for Guardians than Aspects, and Aspects didn't really need +1 Ld. Aspects simply should have re-rolled ALL 1s.

And yet you can add 3 to a charge and reroll all hits if you're near an avatar.

And just by nature of being within range of an avatar, you can reroll the dice on that charge too. That gives a really nice threat range.

 Imateria wrote:
Here's a thought, I wonder if GW has mandated to their rules team that a trait must be useful in someway to the majority of units in an army?

The Ulthwe trait is universal and as such is probably one of the better ones. 16.67% more staying power for your entire army is nice and it works on and against everyone.

Iyanden benefits every unit with a degrading statline and also benefits most infantry to some extent. Not a bad choice.

Biel Tan is definitely the weakest we have seen so far.

Saim Han looks to be pretty weak too if it only benefits jetbikes. This could go up to middling if it turns out other units benefit from mobile heavy weapons.

Alaitoc will be dependent on what units benefit. If it is just infantry it will be OK. If it is all units (as hinted above) then it will be awesome and pretty much the clear winner.

 doctortom wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Can’t take jet bikes “yet”...

It will happen when Wraithguard can take jetbikes, and Wraithlords get very big jetbikes, and we get rules for Craftworld Saim-Iyan.

Did someone say Wraithlords on jetbikes?

The problem with the Biel-Tan attribute making these mono-theme armies less monotheme is that:
(1) Swordwind armies are *already* not monotheme. There are some non-Swordwind Aspect armies that spam one Aspect (like Spiders last edition), but those aren't Swordwind. And, in this edition, spamming any one aspect would fall apart easily.
(2) To use it, you need to spam Shurikens.

So the argument is they're using the attribute to make lists that don't spam not spam, and do that by making them spam?

 Galef wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Can’t take jet bikes “yet”...

It will happen when Wraithguard can take jetbikes, and Wraithlords get very big jetbikes, and we get rules for Craftworld Saim-Iyan.

Did someone say Wraithlords on jetbikes?

Spoiler:

Enjoy an exalt! That is hilarious and frightening at the same time. Wraithlords on new Vyperish bike and Wraithknights on Bright Stallions!

Oh the joys

Bharring wrote:
The problem with the Biel-Tan attribute making these mono-theme armies less monotheme is that:
(1) Swordwind armies are *already* not monotheme. There are some non-Swordwind Aspect armies that spam one Aspect (like Spiders last edition), but those aren't Swordwind. And, in this edition, spamming any one aspect would fall apart easily.
(2) To use it, you need to spam Shurikens.

So the argument is they're using the attribute to make lists that don't spam not spam, and do that by making them spam?

Where in the trait does it state a minimum number of shuriken based units in the army is required?

By "to use it", I meant to get measureable benefit out of it.

If the only shurikens are the pistols and DAs, and half the DAs are hanging out with an Autarch anyways, you're not getting much of anything out of it. Might as well use Uthwe or Alaitoc.

Which kinda works for me. I have an Uthwe Swordwind force anyways...

Alcibiades wrote:

Bharring wrote:
No, Biel-Tan doesn't give Biel-Tan a baked-in 'Plague Weapon'. It gives non-Biel-Tan forces that use Biel-Tan's attribute 'Plague Weapon'.

As has been posted, the majority of units that don't benefit from it are the units SwordWind is based upon. Aspects. Only Dire Avengers get any real benefit from that. That's why it's terrible for Biel-Tan: sounds good, sounds similar to what they need, but implemented in a way that makes it mostly help non-Biel-Tan forces.

It's almost as if...

they were trying to get players away from running monotheme armies with everything min-maxed to supporting that theme,

You're claiming that GW released rules for each Craftworld to discourage themed armies.

pm713 wrote:

You're claiming that GW released rules for each Craftworld to discourage themed armies.

Well, they did turn Raven Guard into Devastator-based siege armies while light-footed Death Guard speed across the table as agile as any Footdar army, all the while leaving White Scars dumbfounded at the hit-and-run and rapid re-deployment magic of Ultramarines and Tallarns, which they can never hope to match.

So there is that.

seems to me actually that these traits of all the stuff out so far suit a bit of a combined arms

e.g. take the trait for detachment A that suit x units
take trait for detachment B that suit y units

Wonderwolf wrote:
Well, they did turn Raven Guard into Devastator-based siege armies while light-footed Death Guard speed across the table as agile as any Footdar army, all the while leaving White Scars dumbfounded at the hit-and-run and rapid re-deployment magic of Ultramarines and Tallarns, which they can never hope to match.

My greatest regret this evening is that I cannot exalt this post more than once!

Wonderwolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:

You're claiming that GW released rules for each Craftworld to discourage themed armies.

Well, they did turn Raven Guard into Devastator-based siege armies while light-footed Death Guard speed across the table as agile as any Footdar army, all the while leaving White Scars dumbfounded at the hit-and-run and rapid re-deployment magic of Ultramarines and Tallarns, which they can never hope to match.

So there is that.

The funny part about the Raven Guard is actually it turned them closer to what they have been described as fluffwise. The "lulz assault mareenz" bit never really fit their MO.

 Latro_ wrote:
seems to me actually that these traits of all the stuff out so far suit a bit of a combined arms

e.g. take the trait for detachment A that suit x units
take trait for detachment B that suit y units

This, to be honest, has a ring of truth to it. Especially as they have now made at least one HQ choice significantly cheaper in the Spiritseer. This makes having multiple detachments easier and cheaper.

Having multiple craftworlds in one army is also very fluffy, for a Ynnari force. So perhaps they are trying to push more people into playing Ynnari.

Problem is, a Ynnari character (at the moment) breaks the traits in a detachment, and you're limited to 3 detachments. However, if they add a rule that lets a ynnari HQ not break battleforged...

You blow up our damn craftworld and then give us the shaft like its no body's business?

In all honestly I'm not really upset its just disapointing like you would think beiltan would get like "+2 or+3 in move distance on advances" this would support the sword wind idea or "1+ S for aspect warriors" because they are the most close combaty of all the eldar. Idk its kinda sad. I do like dire avengers though they are my favorite aspect. Still sad though....

If they get Dire Avengers appropriately priced, would they be good enough to make up the bulk of a Biel-Tan Force and have it work decently enough?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
If they get Dire Avengers appropriately priced, would they be good enough to make up the bulk of a Biel-Tan Force and have it work decently enough?

Sure, if Dire Avengers become something like 10 or 11 points they'll be decent. The Biel-tan Attribute means that 10 point Avengers would only be a little less efficient than Guardians when shooting (though of course Guardians could benefit from an Autarch or the Ulthwe stratagem or Guide, or from the Biel-tan Attribute even). Shuriken Catapults are actually very nice general-purpose weapons. So you load up 6 squads of Avengers in 3 cheap Shuriken Cannon Serpents, and that's all of the Troops you need for 2 Battalions for a little over 700 points. You probably don't want an Autarch if you're Biel-tan, so you take a Farseer and 2 Spiritseers and something else for a little over 200 points probably. Then you have 1000 points to fill out with whatever you want, though admittedly you've pretty much run out of things that you'd want to have be Biel-tan.

Now, if you want them on foot then, no, the Biel-tan list is always going to be far worse than Alatoic or Ulthwe unless they have an absolutely ridiculous warlord trait or relic.

But yeah, ultimately the point costs are going to be what make or break different list archetypes.

Wonderwolf wrote:

all the while leaving White Scars dumbfounded at the hit-and-run and rapid re-deployment magic of Ultramarines and Tallarns, which they can never hope to match.

The White Scars who can still Hit and Run, they just get to Charge again rather than shoot. So you (hilariously) steal the Raven Guard's old shtick of Jump Packs. Shoot and Charge, then Fall Back, shoot and charge again.

OP updated.

From some of the posts I am reading people seem to be misinterpreting the fluff when they say some of these are unfluffy or don't make sense.

Biel-tan for example is known for having a lot of Aspect warriors. They are not known for having superior aspect warriors so this may be why they only get a +1 LD which is still good. Not saying the attributes are perfect but I think people should read up on the fluff first a bit more as their impression of it differs to mine.

Also the point has been made already but we haven't seen all the relics or the warlord traits yet and these with what we have seen already make up the entire rules for a given Craftworld. In actuality we have seen only half of each Craftworld, the attribute and a stratagem so maybe not be so salty just yet until we have seen everything?

Well, that's the heart of the disappointment for me - but it was what I was expecting.

I wanted GW to take a much indepth approach to army building with various IG regiments or Eldar Craftworlds or Tyranid Hive Fleets, etc. The "use the codex...here's your trait" does nothing to promote a different feel to an army. It might adjust your playstyle slightly or make you favour one unit over the others, but I was really hoping more effort would be put into creating new army lists.

I'd be fine if a Craftworld list said "here are the units you can take" and certain units were unavailable to certain Craftworlds etc. Likewise if Iyanden gets Wraithguard as troops, or if Ulthwe could take fewer Aspects or heavy vehicles, but had access to a Seer Council that the other Craftworlds did not, etc. I was really hoping for an actual change to the army structure. I figured it wouldn't happen because it hasn't in the other codices, but I feel GW has missed a big opportunity here to finally go back to some real identity in an army. I wanted to see different Craftworlds have stronger traits, balanced out by losing access to certain things. So you'd actually feel a difference playing a Saim-Hann host or an Ulthwe Strike Force. As now...you won't with the exception of a minor buff.

Sadly, I'm terribly aware that an army list which doesn't allow X unit = GW can't sell you that model/unit.

The Biel Tan attribute really isn't that bad. It might not be great if you want to run a pure Aspect army but I think it's a misconception that Biel-Tan = only Aspect Warriors. Of course you can play that way but a true Swordwind force is simply based around a core of Aspect Warriors and supported by a smattering of Guardian and vehicle units. Units such as Windriders and Vypers (which can of course be loaded out with Shruiken weaponry to your heart's content) synergise perfectly with the mechanised Swordwind style of play.

Ulthwe and Biel Tan have always been the more vanilla Craftworlds in that they deviate the least from the standard Craftworld mode of play. Ulthwe has slightly more emphasis on psykers and Guardian/support units whereas Biel Tan has slightly more emphasis on Aspects. But you could build a balanced force that could just as easily represent one as the other.