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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Quite frankly, the main issue with the Eldar index is that everything is stupidly costed. Almost everything needs a price break.

Totally agree. Pricing out the army I took to ATC in 2016, it costs at least 600 points more to run now. That is a huge difference.

 DivineVisitor wrote:
Wow... just, wow...

Was pretty excited after seeing the Imperial Guard flavours but this is just depressing.

So Biel-Tan's trait does practically nothing for:
Fire Dragons, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Dark Reapers (the exarch already has re-roll 1's to hit), Crimson Hunter

And extra 1-2 shuriken pistol hits for:
Striking Scorpions, Howling Banshees

An extra 2-4 shuriken catapult hits for:
Dire Avengers, Shining Spears

Surely that trait would be better placed on armies looking to play aggressive with Guardians, Jetbikes & Shuriken Cannon armed vehicles not an army filled with Aspect Warriors...

I'm calling it now - aspect warriors are legacy and will never be replaced. Aeldari will get new units, but not those.

Here's a thought, I wonder if GW has mandated to their rules team that a trait must be useful in someway to the majority of units in an army? Would explain what we've been seeing for each codex so far.

Unfortunately, this just doesn't work for Craftworld Eldar, where each Craftworld is famous for having the core of it's army built around a choice few units or unit types (Alaitoc being the exception, despite the high number of Outcasts affiliated with it, they don't make up the bulk of the army). Makes me really worried for my Drukhari were <Kabal> <Wych Cult> and <Haemonculus Coven> should be easy to mix as well as theme a full army around.

 DivineVisitor wrote:
Wow... just, wow...

Was pretty excited after seeing the Imperial Guard flavours but this is just depressing.

And everyone is screaming and crying about those Guard rules - so being in line with other codexes is better imo.

These is enough flavour in them to be ok and they are less likely to be unbalanced against other Codex blessed armies.

No one wants OP rules again right?

Also the Craftworld traits appear to apply to infantry, vehicles and maybe even flyers - which other codexes did not get!

I'm glad DAs are going down to at most 15ppm. But if the Exarch is still free (and unchanged), going down much further would make them better than they should be. 17 was certainly too high, but a 2W model with a 4++ is thrown in for "free".

 Mr Morden wrote:

And everyone is screaming and crying about those Guard rules - so being in line with other codexes is better imo.

These is enough flavour in them to be ok and they are less likely to be unbalanced against other Codex blessed armies.

No one wants OP rules again right?

Also the Craftworld traits appear to apply to infantry, vehicles and maybe even flyers - which other codexes did not get!

Very good insight here, I agree. Having played jetbikes since 4th ed, I was suddenly labeled TFG just because my chosen theme happened to be amazaballs good in 7th.
I welcome toned down rules.
If the codex comes with a few points decreases along with these attributes, I don't think Eldar will be in a bad place at all

-

 Mr Morden wrote:

 DivineVisitor wrote:
Wow... just, wow...

Was pretty excited after seeing the Imperial Guard flavours but this is just depressing.

And everyone is screaming and crying about those Guard rules - so being in line with other codexes is better imo.

These is enough flavour in them to be ok and they are less likely to be unbalanced against other Codex blessed armies.

No one wants OP rules again right?

Also the Craftworld traits appear to apply to infantry, vehicles and maybe even flyers - which other codexes did not get!

No, everyone isn't.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 DivineVisitor wrote:
Wow... just, wow...

Was pretty excited after seeing the Imperial Guard flavours but this is just depressing.

And everyone is screaming and crying about those Guard rules - so being in line with other codexes is better imo.

These is enough flavour in them to be ok and they are less likely to be unbalanced against other Codex blessed armies.

No one wants OP rules again right?

Also the Craftworld traits appear to apply to infantry, vehicles and maybe even flyers - which other codexes did not get!

This. I don't see a problem. Traits aren't supposed to be a major buff to your army, it's supposed to be a minor one that changes how you play. If you take Biel-Tan you can now park an Exarch next to some Dark Reapersso THEY can reroll 1s or something and not have him babysitting Dire Avengers for the reroll 1s. The Ld +1 is also pretty good for forward units like Banshee, Fire Dragons and Scorpions as it makes them slightly better at morale tests which can eat a lot of models over the course of a game, especially T3 ones.

Unless you want really powerful traits and all the Eldar models stay super-expensive to compensate and everyone can go back to rolling their eyes and sighing whenever you put your army on the table like in 7th.

Bharring wrote:
I'm glad DAs are going down to at most 15ppm. But if the Exarch is still free (and unchanged), going down much further would make them better than they should be. 17 was certainly too high, but a 2W model with a 4++ is thrown in for "free".

I agree that the Exarch should not be a free upgrade, especially since unlike Space Marine Sgts they're optional, but 15ppm on DA's would still be ridiculously overcosted, 13 at max.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 DivineVisitor wrote:
Wow... just, wow...

Was pretty excited after seeing the Imperial Guard flavours but this is just depressing.

And everyone is screaming and crying about those Guard rules - so being in line with other codexes is better imo.

These is enough flavour in them to be ok and they are less likely to be unbalanced against other Codex blessed armies.

No one wants OP rules again right?

Also the Craftworld traits appear to apply to infantry, vehicles and maybe even flyers - which other codexes did not get!

This. I don't see a problem. Traits aren't supposed to be a major buff to your army, it's supposed to be a minor one that changes how you play. If you take Biel-Tan you can now park an Exarch next to some Dark Reapersso THEY can reroll 1s or something and not have him babysitting Dire Avengers for the reroll 1s. The Ld +1 is also pretty good for forward units like Banshee, Fire Dragons and Scorpions as it makes them slightly better at morale tests which can eat a lot of models over the course of a game, especially T3 ones.

Unless you want really powerful traits and all the Eldar models stay super-expensive to compensate and everyone can go back to rolling their eyes and sighing whenever you put your army on the table like in 7th.

You mean Autarchs, and in that example it would be a waste as the Dark Reaper Exarch already gives out re-roll 1's. As for the +1Ld it's also worthless since MSU is the way to run most of the Aspect squads, appropriately costed Dire Avengers might get something out of it as 10 man squads coul become viable, but Swooping Hawks already have that ability, Banshees and Scorpions are so lacking in attack power you might as well not bother and no other units are worth running at high enough numbers.

The biggest problem with these traits is not just how bland they are but that they don't remotely match the Craftworlds they've been given to.

Why don't we wait for the entire codex, before people freak. I have found that if you look at the Trait/Strategim/Relic/Warlord trait they tend to work out fairly well. The sky isn't falling until you have the book in hand. The Legion trait isn't great for Iron Warriors, but their Relic and their Warlord trait are really solid choices.

Look at whole board.

 Sim-Life wrote:

This. I don't see a problem. Traits aren't supposed to be a major buff to your army, it's supposed to be a minor one that changes how you play. If you take Biel-Tan you can now park an Exarch next to some Dark Reapersso THEY can reroll 1s or something and not have him babysitting Dire Avengers for the reroll 1s. The Ld +1 is also pretty good for forward units like Banshee, Fire Dragons and Scorpions as it makes them slightly better at morale tests which can eat a lot of models over the course of a game, especially T3 ones.

Unless you want really powerful traits and all the Eldar models stay super-expensive to compensate and everyone can go back to rolling their eyes and sighing whenever you put your army on the table like in 7th.

I mean, the ship has sailed on this already. Ulthwe's trait is really strong. Alatoic's is probably a bit stronger than that even. So either the units are priced so that those two Craftworlds are overpowered or else Biel-tan is pretty underpowered.

I'm not too worried about the traits, they were never going to be game-changers. Alaitoc is the clear winner and will be the go to tournament trait, I guess. What's more important to me is that they fix our atrocious internal balance.

So far we have confirmation of a buff for Wraithlords and a points drop for Avengers, so hopefully some other units like Banshees, Scorpions, Hawks, Grav-tanks etc will snag similar treatment.

 Prodigalson wrote:
Why don't we wait for the entire codex, before people freak. I have found that if you look at the Trait/Strategim/Relic/Warlord trait they tend to work out fairly well. The sky isn't falling until you have the book in hand. The Legion trait isn't great for Iron Warriors, but their Relic and their Warlord trait are really solid choices.

Look at whole board.

I think this has mostly not been true. The SM codex is all about Ultramarines, with Raven Guard a distant second. Chaos lists are overwhelmingly Alpha Legion. AdMech basically forces you to play Mars.

In defense of the Biel-Tan trait (which does feel anti-climactic), it is fluffy. Biel-Tan is the most militant of the Craftworlds. While, that meant more Aspect followers it includes the general populace as well.

Their primary tactic "the Swordwind" involves swooping in fast in transports and quickly obliterating the opposition in a "Tempest of Blades." That is very descriptive of a hail of shuriken fire.

Aspects get a slight buff (admittedly less offensive), and then the craftworld gets a general/specific buff.

Biel-Tan's re-roll to 1st applies to all shurikans in the entire army. That is a LOT of shots. Yea, it doesn't help aspect warriors that much, but it helps everything in the army be better. War-Walkers, Wraithlords, bikes, every underslung gun on every vehicle. Every pistol carried by every unit.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Vorian wrote:
I would expect some Ynnari specific units, rather than Craftworld based ones.

What makes you think it couldn't be both?

That they released Harlequinns without attaching a random Craftworld release to them

+1LD to Aspects does somewhat encourage bigger units of Aspects (at least in GW's mind), so it can't really be said as "unfluffy" since it does imply "more" Aspects
Iyanden is the most stubborn of CWE, so models should be less likely to run
Ulthwe inhabitants have more psychic foresight and thus can avoid harm

So overall, these traits do actually portray the fluff. They just don't seem to benefit the "units" that are associated with each CW.
I think this speaks volumes of the disconnect between GW and the players. Not so much GW's disconnect, but the players' misinterpretation of GW's intent for play style.

-

Biel Tan's trait should be the never lose more than 1 model due to morale", since they rely the most heavily on aspect warriors.

Ulthwe's trait should be re-roll 1's with Shuriken weapons since Guardians make up the bulk of their military.

Iyanden's ability should be the 6+ feel no pain as it benefits multi-wound models (like Wraith units) most.

---

You know, this stratagem is pretty fun.



Not sure if it is worth 3CP though.

Biel-tan Swordwind is about a quick application of many different tools. Shurikens, blades, las, missiles, etc - each in relatively small amounts, but all of it working together.

The tactic only buffs Shurikens. So only one of the thousand different blades (well, probably 5) are affected. Either it's minor on the few things that have it, or you just use all-Shuriken. Using all-Shuriken is (A) not Biel-Tan's way (that's massed Guardians or Guardian platforms, mostly), and (B) that's 'Killing Blow' style, not 'Thousand Blades'. Massive dakka of one type.

Prodig,
That's the point: it's not that it's bad (probably bad, but not my gripe). It's that it buffs everything except what Biel-Tan relies on. All those things you list? You'll see more in any non-Biel-Tan list (aside from Spirit Hosts).

I wanted a Swordwind attribute that actually buffs Swordwind. Not some Mont'ka reject.

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Quite frankly, the main issue with the Eldar index is that everything is stupidly costed. Almost everything needs a price break.

Agreed. I was happy to see all the changes to units like Windriders and WKs from 7th to 8th.....but then I saw the points costs. So far I've played 2 games and just put everything on the shelf until the Codex.
Seeing DAs drop in price and knowing Windriders will be "much improved" gives me hope.






Too bad "hope" is the first step on the road to disappointment.
-

Not only does it say that Avengers drop in price, but also that their weapons dropped in price too. So at minimum, thats a 2 point drop in their total price per model. Could be more. Hope it's more, as they're still bad at 15ppm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red_Five wrote:
Biel Tan's trait should be the never lose more than 1 model due to morale", since they rely the most heavily on aspect warriors.

Ulthwe's trait should be re-roll 1's with Shuriken weapons since Guardians make up the bulk of their military.

Iyanden's ability should be the 6+ feel no pain as it benefits multi-wound models (like Wraith units) most.

---

You know, this stratagem is pretty fun.



Not sure if it is worth 3CP though.

Only works in the fight phase, so Avatar can be killed by shooting with no way to resurrect.

Costs 3CP in an army that probably only has 7-9 CP total to start with.

Imperial Guard stratagems often only cost 1 or 2 CP, in an army that can easily startwith 20+ CP.

Imperial Guard's Avatar equivalent (Celestine) can resurrect for free, multiple times, from any source of damage, costs half as much to start with, no CP's required.

Imperium in 8th is already so much worse than all reports of Eldar in 6th/7th. Everything Eldar have, Imperium have as well, only better and cheaper on every level.

Yeah I don't understand why it is limited to the fight phase AND costs 3 CP for something that only gives him 6 wounds back (max).

Wow. Color me wrong on the 4chan 'leak'.

Well the Avatar's a character with less than 10 wounds so can't be targeted, so if you stuck him at the front to be shot at you're either loosing badly or doing it wrong.

Anyone else notice that the Avatar and Celestial shield Stratagems are "Craftworld" stratagems and not Biel-tan/Ulthwe exclusive?

 Galef wrote:
Anyone else notice that the Avatar and Celestial shield Stratagems are "Craftworld" stratagems and not Biel-tan/Ulthwe exclusive?

Yes, they're obviously throwing in some information on the army as a whole in each Craftworld preview to keep up interest.

Well... my primary list is currently based around a ton of Jetbikes, Vypers, and Wave Serpents with Shuriken cannons... so naturally, they're made better by the Biel-Tan attribute! I'm not going to argue with it, as I specifically created a custom craftworld so I can run whatever rules are a good fit for the list I want to play on a given day, but it just seems so freaking weird.

Also, the Cannon re-roll means that I no longer need to give my Farseer Guide+Doom and can switch him to Fortune+Doom (or something else, depending on how the new powers shake out).

The lack of a price break on guardians is deeply disappointing. A lot of 8th ed is extremely troops-driven, both in rewards for CP and the relative power of high model count low point units.

Most of the competitive armies are driven by access to good, cheap troops. AM have it, chaos has it and while SM is more dubious in that regard, Girlyman not only brings his own command points to compensate, but also flips the math so much it's out of line with every other aura in the game.

So without guardians, our hopes really have to come to Dire Avengers and Rangers. I think dire avengers won't qualify as 'good' until they see something like 10 points per model, which seems unlikely (even though they'd still be worse than brimstones, conscripts, noise marines and cultists). They'll probably be passable at 12, but certainly not amazing.

Rangers are my bigger hope. I think if they got to 13-15 ppm (25%-30% decrease, not unheard of), we could get some real use out of them. They are durable for elves, would be cheap-ish due to their low numbers and counter a real issue in the meta, which is the power of characters. They would be solid for removing commissars, maelific lords and, if we're talking 3-6 units of them, a genuine threat to more potent characters. They wouldn't earn back their points in shooting very often, but you'd be taking them for command points and their ability to appear on and then camp objectives.

Craftworld traits aside...the revamped psychic powers and the price adjustments will probably make or break the army. For instance, if Rangers/Scouts remain obscenely expensive, they'll never be fielded, etc.

While none of the stuff so far blows my skirt up, I'll be more than happy to wait for the Codex and I'll appreciate any boost they get. I love my Eldar and won't stop playing them, but it's awfully tough right now.

After seeing the last 2, Iyanden is looking better Since I run wraithlords I will like the non degrading stat line. I may also bump the size of my foot wraithguard with axe and shield too.

As a pseudo-Biel-Tan player, the Biel-Tan bonus is not at all what I had been hoping for - the shuriken buff is more for Guardians than Aspects, and Aspects didn't really need +1 Ld. Aspects simply should have re-rolled ALL 1s.