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Wonderwolf wrote:
Interesting. I was also under the impression you could use the infiltrate-stratagem only once.

Inversely, if you can use stratagems multiple times before the actual game ("outside a phase"), couldn't counter it by re-rolling the seize initiative roll for as long as you have command points?

Sadly, a die can only be re-rolled once, regardless of the source of the re-roll.

What Spoletta said - use cheap Guardian units to bubblewrap your force and space out units to provide support to one another whilst not offering an easy charge range.

Not much to add, but don't Ynari have a decent counter as well? In any case, in 8th bubblewrap is not really optional. You need to wrap. A basic "Two Trygon tunnel" assault would have wreaked you pretty bad as well, and that is in no way "cheesy".

The BEST bubble wrap troop unit for is Corsairs, take 2x5 units.

The reason why is they have a really strong pistol, 1 D6 roll (can re-roll with CP) counts for the total shots of all models, of if you roll a 5, thats 25 shots with 5 guys. Also its only 50pts compare to Eldar units.

The Best cheap unit is FA DE Khymerae's (20pts for 1 unit of 2 take 2x2 thats 40pts)

With that said, the codex is in soon and we might want guardians instead.


Also the Fliers are literally the best Anti-charge turn 1 against "Non-Fly" units as they must stay away from the flyer and can not charge it.

Here is a good example using 2 fliers and 2 units of Khymerae's (instead of the Khymerae's if could be a Guardian unit, it can be anything you want)

Wonderwolf wrote:
Interesting. I was also under the impression you could use the infiltrate-stratagem only once.

There's nothing in the CSM Codex that prohibits using Forward Operatives multiple times. The Stratagem is triggered at the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn.

Reading the BRB rules on Stratagems, it says you can use the same Stratagem multiple times during the course of a battle. (BTW The thing I am not seeing in the BRB is a restriction on using more than one stratagem per phase - did I get that wrong?)

Honestly, while this story sounds sick, it could have gone the other way. Deploying MEQ 9 inches away from Eldar is rarely a good idea. If the OP got first turn, it might have gone entirely the other way.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:
Interesting. I was also under the impression you could use the infiltrate-stratagem only once.

There's nothing in the CSM Codex that prohibits using Forward Operatives multiple times. The Stratagem is triggered at the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn.

Reading the BRB rules on Stratagems, it says you can use the same Stratagem multiple times during the course of a battle. (BTW The thing I am not seeing in the BRB is a restriction on using more than one stratagem per phase - did I get that wrong?)

Honestly, while this story sounds sick, it could have gone the other way. Deploying MEQ 9 inches away from Eldar is rarely a good idea. If the OP got first turn, it might have gone entirely the other way.

Page 215, "Matched Play Mission Rules" (so narrative and open ignore this)

Strategic Discipline: The same stratagem cannot be used be the same players more than once during any single phase. "This does no affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used before the battle begains, or at the end of a battle round"

What is the wording on CSM stratagem? B.c there is a limit if it is during a phase.

To the OP: You are playing a small game. Small games are really susceptible to one side steam rolling over the other. I suggest playing a large game (1500-2000) and playing with more expendable troops units that can be used to bubble wrap your more important units during the first turn of the game.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:
Interesting. I was also under the impression you could use the infiltrate-stratagem only once.

There's nothing in the CSM Codex that prohibits using Forward Operatives multiple times. The Stratagem is triggered at the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn.

Reading the BRB rules on Stratagems, it says you can use the same Stratagem multiple times during the course of a battle. (BTW The thing I am not seeing in the BRB is a restriction on using more than one stratagem per phase - did I get that wrong?)

Honestly, while this story sounds sick, it could have gone the other way. Deploying MEQ 9 inches away from Eldar is rarely a good idea. If the OP got first turn, it might have gone entirely the other way.

Page 215, "Matched Play Mission Rules" (so narrative and open ignore this)

Strategic Discipline: The same stratagem cannot be used be the same players more than once during any single phase. "This does no affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used before the battle begains, or at the end of a battle round"

What is the wording on CSM stratagem? B.c there is a limit if it is during a phase.

It is before the game begins. Its exactly the same as the Ravenguard one (and the one the Ad Mech got, and the Tallarn one).

You can spam it because it is before the beginning of the game.

Wonderwolf wrote:
Interesting. I was also under the impression you could use the infiltrate-stratagem only once.

Inversely, if you can use stratagems multiple times before the actual game ("outside a phase"), couldn't counter it by re-rolling the seize initiative roll for as long as you have command points?

Re-roll rule prevents that. Can't re-roll a dice more than once.

On top of that literally EVERY tournament ruleset prevents the re-roll being used before the game.

So why isn't anyone asking how WORLD EATER units are getting to use ALPHA LEGION stratagems?




I know Berserkers aren't exclusively World Eaters, but maybe they should be for this reason.
Likewise, I think it is pretty messed up to use a Stratagem more than once just because of a loop hole in wording. The intent is clearly to only use each strategem once before your opponent gets a player turn.

-

This happened all the time in 2nd. Everything old is new again.

 Galef wrote:
So why isn't anyone asking how WORLD EATER units are getting to use ALPHA LEGION stratagems?




I know Berserkers aren't exclusively World Eaters, but maybe they should be for this reason.
Likewise, I think it is pretty messed up to use a Stratagem more than once just because of a loop hole in wording. The intent is clearly to only use each strategem once before your opponent gets a player turn.

-

...
That is not 'clearly the intent'. You're pulling 'intent' out of thin air, and 'intent' that contradicts the explicit rules. Nothing even IMPLIES that pregame strategems are supposed to be one-use-only. It's not a 'loop hole'.

When the rule says a thing can only be used 'once per phase', the intent is pretty clear it can only be used once.
The real thing that should be questioned is whether stratagems can be used outside of a phase at all.
Clearly some stratagems have to be used outside of phases due to what they actually do, but in these cases we still need to apply some common sense.

Normally stratagems can only be used once, so why would this change in situations where they are used out of phase?

-

 Galef wrote:
So why isn't anyone asking how WORLD EATER units are getting to use ALPHA LEGION stratagems?




I know Berserkers aren't exclusively World Eaters, but maybe they should be for this reason.
Likewise, I think it is pretty messed up to use a Stratagem more than once just because of a loop hole in wording. The intent is clearly to only use each strategem once before your opponent gets a player turn.

-

Berzerkers can be found in just about every undivided Legion or Renegade chapter. They go where they can spill the most blood and collect the most skulls. They don't really care if they are fighting with the Alpha Legion, the Black Legion or the World Eaters.

Also, GW very clearly intends for you to infiltrate mroe than one unit at the beginning of the game:

"One of the most exciting new features of the Raven Guard is their unique Stratagem, Strike From the Shadows. You’ll want to pack as many command points as you can into your list to take full advantage of this, allowing you to hold units back at the start of the game and deploy them anywhere more than 9″ away from the enemy just before the game begins."

Martel732 wrote:
This happened all the time in 2nd. Everything old is new again.

Where is the randomly move deadly counters phase? Nothing like a couple roving Warp Voids to keep people on their toes!

So basically, until GW clearly states that the Raven Guard and Alpha legion infiltrating stratagems cannot be used to move units and/or charge with them, I won't be playing against any RG or AL armies....great!
I already have Guard on my 'do not play against' list. Looks like I won't be playing in tourneys at all this edition.
It's just not a fun game if lists exist that can immediately table the opponent or render the majority of their units impotent before they can react.

-

 Galef wrote:
So basically, until GW clearly states that the Raven Guard and Alpha legion infiltrating stratagems cannot be used to move units and/or charge with them, I won't be playing against any RG or AL armies....great!
I already have Guard on my 'do not play against' list. Looks like I won't be playing in tourneys at all this edition.
It's just not a fun game if lists exist that can immediately table the opponent or render the majority of their units impotent before they can react.

-

This tactic was literally the only reason my Khorne Bezerkers were able to engage and help neuter an Imperial Guard's shooting for a critical 2 turns.

 Galef wrote:
So basically, until GW clearly states that the Raven Guard and Alpha legion infiltrating stratagems cannot be used to move units and/or charge with them, I won't be playing against any RG or AL armies....great!
I already have Guard on my 'do not play against' list. Looks like I won't be playing in tourneys at all this edition.
It's just not a fun game if lists exist that can immediately table the opponent or render the majority of their units impotent before they can react.

-

Just about every army can alpha strike and basically neuter their opponents. Its the biggest problem the edition has right now.

 Galef wrote:
So basically, until GW clearly states that the Raven Guard and Alpha legion infiltrating stratagems cannot be used to move units and/or charge with them, I won't be playing against any RG or AL armies....great!
I already have Guard on my 'do not play against' list. Looks like I won't be playing in tourneys at all this edition.
It's just not a fun game if lists exist that can immediately table the opponent or render the majority of their units impotent before they can react.

-

Or... Just take screening units and scouts...

Scouts are too expensive to be effective screening units.

What is the wording on the stratagem?

It's been said once in this thread, but I'm going to re-iterate it again;

You can use the infiltration strategem multiple times during deployment, because the game hasn't begun yet - you're not limited to the "1 per phase" rule.

Second, infiltration deployments must be placed on the board before determining who goes first or second - this means that you can deploy 9" away and hope to get the first turn, allowing you to move and make an almost guaranteed charge; but it comes with a risk - if your opponent gets the first turn, they're going to gun down/charge your infiltrating units.

I haven't faced CSM doing this yet, and it does sound super brutal - but it has counters, such as seizing the first turn, or simply bubblewrapping your units with disposable ones (which you should be doing REGARDLESS, as Deep Striking and one-rounding squads is a fact of life this edition).

Chill yall.

Edit: Also, OP; games are over round 1 or 2 this edition, the alpha strikes are seriously brutal. It's just how 8th edition is shaking out so far; terrain rules and the like aren't adequate enough to counter this... you need bubblewrapping, and even then - if you face a gunline list (AM, etc), you damn better hope you get the first turn and can blow up as many of his shooty units as possible.

I'm not a fan of this new editions emphasis on alpha strikes, but what can you do?

I've had to scoop top of one with Eldar lists before; it's a problem of how the Eldar are written (it doesn't matter how good of a gun you give a T3/5+/1W body if he dies the instant he gets sneezed on) as much as it is a problem of how the core rules work.

I don't have an issue with units being able to drop in 9" on the first turn and charge. It still comes down to a 2d6 roll.
It's being able to close that gap by moving first that bothers me.

8th edition was supposed to reduce the amount of ridiculously game breaking combos you could do, not come up with all new ways to circumvent your opponent even getting a turn.

It looks like I won't be playing 8th at all until more armies get Codices.

 Galef wrote:
So basically, until GW clearly states that the Raven Guard and Alpha legion infiltrating stratagems cannot be used to move units and/or charge with them, I won't be playing against any RG or AL armies....great!
I already have Guard on my 'do not play against' list. Looks like I won't be playing in tourneys at all this edition.
It's just not a fun game if lists exist that can immediately table the opponent or render the majority of their units impotent before they can react.

-

That would be silly. You opponent is leaving MEQ in front of your army. If he doesn't get first turn, you get to mow him down. Any Obliterators arriving the next turn would not have a screen.

It's risky.

fe40k wrote:
It's been said once in this thread, but I'm going to re-iterate it again;

You can use the infiltration strategem multiple times during deployment, because the game hasn't begun yet - you're not limited to the "1 per phase" rule.

Second, infiltration deployments must be placed on the board before determining who goes first or second - this means that you can deploy 9" away and hope to get the first turn, allowing you to move and make an almost guaranteed charge; but it comes with a risk - if your opponent gets the first turn, they're going to gun down/charge your infiltrating units.

I haven't faced CSM doing this yet, and it does sound super brutal - but it has counters, such as seizing the first turn, or simply bubblewrapping your units with disposable ones (which you should be doing REGARDLESS, as Deep Striking and one-rounding squads is a fact of life this edition).

Chill yall.

Edit: Also, OP; games are over round 1 or 2 this edition, the alpha strikes are seriously brutal. It's just how 8th edition is shaking out so far; terrain rules and the like aren't adequate enough to counter this... you need bubblewrapping, and even then - if you face a gunline list (AM, etc), you damn better hope you get the first turn and can blow up as many of his shooty units as possible.

I'm not a fan of this new editions emphasis on alpha strikes, but what can you do?

I just wanted to wording on the stratagem...........

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I just wanted to wording on the stratagem...........

Forward Operatives
Use this Stratagem when you can set up an ALPHA LEGION INFANTRY unit during deployment. You can set up the unit in concealment instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, the unit emerges from its hiding place - set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models.

"At the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins"

So it's not before the game begins, the game has just started...

Also, is not "At the beginning of the first battle round" the start of the phase?

*edit*
I'm reading this as "first thing you do after play begins, before anything else"

 Amishprn86 wrote:
The BEST bubble wrap troop unit for is Corsairs, take 2x5 units.

Alternatively, Shadow Spectres are the best non-Guardian/Wave Serpent thing in Craftworld Eldar, and they would love for you to charge them.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I just wanted to wording on the stratagem...........

Forward Operatives
Use this Stratagem when you can set up an ALPHA LEGION INFANTRY unit during deployment. You can set up the unit in concealment instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, the unit emerges from its hiding place - set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models.

It says "before the 1st battle round" so this clearly is within the rules to use it as many times as you want, due to rule for match play on pg 215.

This is why i wanted the wording, this is 100% clear and legal.

SWEET! b.c i have a large Khorne army XD aka lots of Zerkers, now i need to buy the codex i guess lol

Looks like when cadia fell, Alpha Legion stole CREED's TACTICAL GENIUS.