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Well doing work like that is what the Emperor created the Iron Warriors to do. Then when Dorn is told to go in and finish it, by the Emperor its hardly his fault. Its not just Dorn who the Remembrancers gave all the credit, when fighting along side the Wolf and the Khan, Perty was listed as just a 'Comrade in Arms'

Considering Perty had issues with pretty much every Primarch and not just Dorn, I'd say the core of the problem is very much Perterabo himself.

He disliked everyone. He was disliked, his methods were disliked, and they weren't 'glamorous' to the artists.

Honestly it sounds like the Emperor should have thought to let the Warriors win more or tell remembrancers not to forget them...

pm713 wrote:
I think the only Primarch to drive anyone to Chaos was Roboute.

And how was that?
I mean, you must at least be missing the "Loyalist" premodifier to "Primarch", unless you're ignoring Lorgar and Horus (and to some extent, Russ) for some reason?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I think the only Primarch to drive anyone to Chaos was Roboute.

And how was that?
I mean, you must at least be missing the "Loyalist" premodifier to "Primarch", unless you're ignoring Lorgar and Horus (and to some extent, Russ) for some reason?

Yeah I missed Loyalist.

If I recall rightly then he was one of the reasons the Apha's picked Horus as he was nice to them whereas Girlyman spent his time claiming he was so much better and had the "record" to prove it.

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I think the only Primarch to drive anyone to Chaos was Roboute.

And how was that?
I mean, you must at least be missing the "Loyalist" premodifier to "Primarch", unless you're ignoring Lorgar and Horus (and to some extent, Russ) for some reason?

Yeah I missed Loyalist.

If I recall rightly then he was one of the reasons the Apha's picked Horus as he was nice to them whereas Girlyman spent his time claiming he was so much better and had the "record" to prove it.

Except nearly EVERY loyalist viewed the Alphas with a degree of hostility - and some traitor legions too.

The Thousand Sons turned traitor because of direct hostility of Russ (yes, his orders were given by Horus, masquerading as the Emperor, but Russ still went ahead and chose to obey a kill order rather than object or question it), and Dorn's mere existence mixed with Perturabo's own mental issues proved his downfall.

Not to mention that the Alpha Legion are debated if they even ARE a Traitor Legion, and even if so, I doubt it was JUST Guilliman's comments about the AL that did it.
(Plus, Guilliman did have a fair amount of respect for them, and how they fought. However, he disliked how they tended to COMPLETELY destroy a system's infrastructure and populace, creating issues with the reintegration process).

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I think the only Primarch to drive anyone to Chaos was Roboute.

And how was that?
I mean, you must at least be missing the "Loyalist" premodifier to "Primarch", unless you're ignoring Lorgar and Horus (and to some extent, Russ) for some reason?

Yeah I missed Loyalist.

If I recall rightly then he was one of the reasons the Apha's picked Horus as he was nice to them whereas Girlyman spent his time claiming he was so much better and had the "record" to prove it.

Except nearly EVERY loyalist viewed the Alphas with a degree of hostility - and some traitor legions too.

The Thousand Sons turned traitor because of direct hostility of Russ (yes, his orders were given by Horus, masquerading as the Emperor, but Russ still went ahead and chose to obey a kill order rather than object or question it), and Dorn's mere existence mixed with Perturabo's own mental issues proved his downfall.

Not to mention that the Alpha Legion are debated if they even ARE a Traitor Legion, and even if so, I doubt it was JUST Guilliman's comments about the AL that did it.
(Plus, Guilliman did have a fair amount of respect for them, and how they fought. However, he disliked how they tended to COMPLETELY destroy a system's infrastructure and populace, creating issues with the reintegration process).

There's hostility and then there's hostility and directly insulting and mocking them. One has a much bigger effect.

Pretty sure the turning point for the Thousand Sons was Magnus making mistakes and Horus ordering them all killed.

They sided with the Traitors. They are indisputably Traitors. You can argue whether or not they are Chaos but they are definitely Traitors.

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I think the only Primarch to drive anyone to Chaos was Roboute.

And how was that?
I mean, you must at least be missing the "Loyalist" premodifier to "Primarch", unless you're ignoring Lorgar and Horus (and to some extent, Russ) for some reason?

Yeah I missed Loyalist.

If I recall rightly then he was one of the reasons the Apha's picked Horus as he was nice to them whereas Girlyman spent his time claiming he was so much better and had the "record" to prove it.

Except nearly EVERY loyalist viewed the Alphas with a degree of hostility - and some traitor legions too.

The Thousand Sons turned traitor because of direct hostility of Russ (yes, his orders were given by Horus, masquerading as the Emperor, but Russ still went ahead and chose to obey a kill order rather than object or question it), and Dorn's mere existence mixed with Perturabo's own mental issues proved his downfall.

Not to mention that the Alpha Legion are debated if they even ARE a Traitor Legion, and even if so, I doubt it was JUST Guilliman's comments about the AL that did it.
(Plus, Guilliman did have a fair amount of respect for them, and how they fought. However, he disliked how they tended to COMPLETELY destroy a system's infrastructure and populace, creating issues with the reintegration process).

There's hostility and then there's hostility and directly insulting and mocking them. One has a much bigger effect.

Guilliman was right in regards to the Alpha Legion though. They intentionally made things harder just so they could try to prove how competent they were. They caused more damage and casualties, making conquered worlds take longer to contribute as much to the Imperium, because of their pride. Speed of compliance was important.

Peturabo turned due to his paranoia and pride. Alpharius seems to have turned due to pride and... whatever his reasons were for going along with the Cabal. Either way, Alpharius turning wasn't Guilliman's fault.

pm713 wrote:
I think the only Primarch to drive anyone to Chaos was Roboute.

He made the Alpha Legion's choice a lot easier anyway - up until Legion, Roboute was part of the reason the Alpha Legion switched side. And he did more than nudge the Word Bearers along when he burned Monarchia to the ground and his Ultramarines butchered the civilians, directly leading to Lorgar's search for the Old Gods.

But seriously off topic now.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:


Peturabo turned due to his paranoia and pride. Alpharius seems to have turned due to pride and... whatever his reasons were for going along with the Cabal. Either way, Alpharius turning wasn't Guilliman's fault.

Guilliman gave him the reason to. While he might not have intended to insult Alpharius, Guilliman didn't have the charisma and intrapersonal skills of Sanguinius or Horus. Saying someone's strategy is "a waste of the Emperor's bolt shells" isn't exactly diplomatic. It's pretty conclusive in Extermination.

 Ketara wrote:

godking wrote:


What EXACTLY did Dorn do to drive the iron warriors away from the imperium

Honestly claiming that he was as good a siegemaster as Perturabo ?

He kept stealing Perturabo's credit, apparently. Got all the nice shiny medals and statues and public acclamation after the Iron Warriors did most of the dying. The Death Guard had a similar complaint.

Here is Perturabo's sister completly destroying Perturabo's viewpoint.

Calliphone went on. 'For a long time, I thought you a fool to follow the Emperor. After all, he is a tyrant like all the rest. Look what he has done to you, I thought. He has brutalised you, and your wars have brutalised your home. But the truth is, brother, I have followed your campaigns carefully, and I noticed a pattern that disturbed and then alarmed me. Always you do things the most difficult way, and in the most painful manner. You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' You are too arrogant to win people over through effort. You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]

'You came to this court as a precocious child. Your abilities were so prodigious that nobody stopped to look at what you were becoming.' [...] 'Perturabo, this will anger you, but you never truly grew into a man. It is not the Emperor who has driven this world into rebellion. It is not he who has held it back. It is you and your woeful egotism. Let me tell you, my brother, you who affects to despise love so much yet must certainly crave it over all other things, you are the biggest fool I have ever met.'

Dorn did nothing to drive Perturabo to Chaos.

pm713 wrote:

Pretty sure the turning point for the Thousand Sons was Magnus making mistakes and Horus ordering them all killed.

I think it was when Magnus got split into pieces and most of his dominant good bits ended up wandering off to Terra, leaving the more negative aspects of his soul to command the Legion. Up until that point, he had nothing to do with the Heresy. Then his more rage filled/arrogant/resentful side announced that they were joining in to get that half of him back from Terra.

 ChazSexington wrote:

He made the Alpha Legion's choice a lot easier anyway - up until Legion, Roboute was part of the reason the Alpha Legion switched side. And he did more than nudge the Word Bearers along when he burned Monarchia to the ground and his Ultramarines butchered the civilians, directly leading to Lorgar's search for the Old Gods.



Guilliman gave him the reason to. While he might not have intended to insult Alpharius, Guilliman didn't have the charisma and intrapersonal skills of Sanguinius or Horus. Saying someone's strategy is "a waste of the Emperor's bolt shells" isn't exactly diplomatic. It's pretty conclusive in Extermination.

I can't really see Guilliman saying the blunt truth about Alpharius' way of war having had meaningful impact on someone who would otherwise have been Loyal. The old fluff said the Alpha Legion got so obsessed with proving itself it desired to fight other Space Marines to demonstrate their superiority. Being closer to Horus led Alpharius that way. I don't see Guilliman as having much impact on the situation. Blaming Guilliman for Monarchia was unfair. He did what the Emperor ordered him to as any other Legion would have.


Guilliman wasn't that diplomatic but snubbing Alpharius doesn't strike me as having a significant influence on Alpharius' decision, pre or post Legion fluff.

ChazSexington wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I think the only Primarch to drive anyone to Chaos was Roboute.

He made the Alpha Legion's choice a lot easier anyway - up until Legion, Roboute was part of the reason the Alpha Legion switched side.

Yes, but you could say that the fact the Alpha Legion were distrusted by MOST Legions as being PART of the reason too. Guilliman told Alpharius what he thought, but he was hardly the only Primarch to have that opinion.

And he did more than nudge the Word Bearers along when he burned Monarchia to the ground and his Ultramarines butchered the civilians, directly leading to Lorgar's search for the Old Gods.

But seriously off topic now.

They followed the Emperor's orders, overseen by him. It wasn't their decision or desire. If not Guilliman, the Emperor would have had any other Legion do it - perhaps even the Sons of Horus, or Space Wolves (again - exactly what the Space Wolves were GOING to do to Magnus, without the kill order added by Horus).

However you cut it, Guilliman was no different to Russ, except Russ took it further and went to actively KILL Magnus.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:


Peturabo turned due to his paranoia and pride. Alpharius seems to have turned due to pride and... whatever his reasons were for going along with the Cabal. Either way, Alpharius turning wasn't Guilliman's fault.

Guilliman gave him the reason to. While he might not have intended to insult Alpharius, Guilliman didn't have the charisma and intrapersonal skills of Sanguinius or Horus. Saying someone's strategy is "a waste of the Emperor's bolt shells" isn't exactly diplomatic. It's pretty conclusive in Extermination.

Hardly. It's no worse than what Russ and Angron have said to eachother during the Night of the Wolf. Again, Guilliman wasn't the nicest guy, but he wasn't anywhere near as bad as Lion actively snubbing Horus, Angron being confrontational with EVERYONE, Perty and Dorn being at eachother's throats, etc etc - even if Guilliman was responsible for turning a Legion Traitor, he wasn't the only one.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I think the only Primarch to drive anyone to Chaos was Roboute.

And how was that?
I mean, you must at least be missing the "Loyalist" premodifier to "Primarch", unless you're ignoring Lorgar and Horus (and to some extent, Russ) for some reason?

Yeah I missed Loyalist.

If I recall rightly then he was one of the reasons the Apha's picked Horus as he was nice to them whereas Girlyman spent his time claiming he was so much better and had the "record" to prove it.

Except nearly EVERY loyalist viewed the Alphas with a degree of hostility - and some traitor legions too.

The Thousand Sons turned traitor because of direct hostility of Russ (yes, his orders were given by Horus, masquerading as the Emperor, but Russ still went ahead and chose to obey a kill order rather than object or question it), and Dorn's mere existence mixed with Perturabo's own mental issues proved his downfall.

Not to mention that the Alpha Legion are debated if they even ARE a Traitor Legion, and even if so, I doubt it was JUST Guilliman's comments about the AL that did it.
(Plus, Guilliman did have a fair amount of respect for them, and how they fought. However, he disliked how they tended to COMPLETELY destroy a system's infrastructure and populace, creating issues with the reintegration process).

There's hostility and then there's hostility and directly insulting and mocking them. One has a much bigger effect.

Guilliman was right in regards to the Alpha Legion though. They intentionally made things harder just so they could try to prove how competent they were. They caused more damage and casualties, making conquered worlds take longer to contribute as much to the Imperium, because of their pride. Speed of compliance was important.

Peturabo turned due to his paranoia and pride. Alpharius seems to have turned due to pride and... whatever his reasons were for going along with the Cabal. Either way, Alpharius turning wasn't Guilliman's fault.

Which they felt they had to do after Mr Braggart came along. It's not solely his fault but he's a decent contributor.

pm713 wrote:
Which they felt they had to do after Mr Braggart came along. It's not solely his fault but he's a decent contributor.

Not at all. The Alpha Legion had serious issues with pride and an inferiority complex. Initially it was just a disagreement on how to operate a legion. This led them to try and prove they were as good or better than the other legions by doing stupid stuff for flashy victories.
Guilliman was one critic of many. The Alpha Legion having brain problems is the only thing that can be blamed for their going traitor.

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Which they felt they had to do after Mr Braggart came along. It's not solely his fault but he's a decent contributor.

Not at all. The Alpha Legion had serious issues with pride and an inferiority complex. Initially it was just a disagreement on how to operate a legion. This led them to try and prove they were as good or better than the other legions by doing stupid stuff for flashy victories.
Guilliman was one critic of many. The Alpha Legion having brain problems is the only thing that can be blamed for their going traitor.

I'm sure someone saying "look how much better I am" had nothing to do with it.

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Which they felt they had to do after Mr Braggart came along. It's not solely his fault but he's a decent contributor.

Not at all. The Alpha Legion had serious issues with pride and an inferiority complex. Initially it was just a disagreement on how to operate a legion. This led them to try and prove they were as good or better than the other legions by doing stupid stuff for flashy victories.
Guilliman was one critic of many. The Alpha Legion having brain problems is the only thing that can be blamed for their going traitor.

I'm sure someone saying "look how much better I am" had nothing to do with it.

So if I said to you that I am better than you, that gives you carte blanche to go on a murderous rampage?
What Guilliman did was not even as bad as that, they were debating and Guilliman just pointed out the obvious success of his methods.
If something like that sets you off to such a degree then you're not mentally healthy.

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Which they felt they had to do after Mr Braggart came along. It's not solely his fault but he's a decent contributor.

Not at all. The Alpha Legion had serious issues with pride and an inferiority complex. Initially it was just a disagreement on how to operate a legion. This led them to try and prove they were as good or better than the other legions by doing stupid stuff for flashy victories.
Guilliman was one critic of many. The Alpha Legion having brain problems is the only thing that can be blamed for their going traitor.

I'm sure someone saying "look how much better I am" had nothing to do with it.

I agree with Sgt_Smudge and Animus here. The thing is, you can argue the Alpha Legion were doing the same, if not worse in regards to saying "look how much better I am". Guillimans point wasn't that he thought the Alpha Legion were inherently inferior, he was pointing out that things were needlessly complex with the AL because of their pathological need to make the simplest thing complex. I think he pointed to his victories not necessarily out of hubris (well there is some, every Primarch seems to have a sense of pride that can get trampled on, understandably given their abilities and track records, combined with the fact they basically grew to adulthood and handed armies within years without a proper childhood to be taught the nuances of social interactions. I just don't think it's the main factor here), but as examples of efficiency. He's basically trying to tell the AL: "look, if you only break the door to get into the planet it's much quicker on all levels, you don't need to setup a Rube Goldberg machine that destroys everything around the door so that it finally falls over. See how many victories I have? It's faster brother, trust me." But it comes across to everyone else like he's gloating, and he is in part (he'd be proud of his conquests naturally), but it has a reason to what he is saying. He's not being needlessly cruel or vindictive to Alpharius and Omegon, he's just backing up his claim with actual facts. His compliances generally I'd wager were much faster, and achieving compliance after the battles were done was probably magnitudes faster than what the AL could do, and it's not like the AL was in protracted sieges like the IW out of necessity that lead to the collateral damage, it was because they choose to draw out fights when they could have finished it in a day and preserved infrastructure merely to prove their military acumen. Plus in all the books I read I get the impression the AL don't actually care about what Roboute said, and from the scene with the Cabal it appears Roboute had no effect on Alpharious' decision regardless of each other's opinions of each other. Plus if Alpharius had an axe to grind we would have seen something by now (book-wise). Roboute made Imperium Secundus and disbanded it to go to Terra and throughout that whole time no AL actions had occured, which is maybe a few years out of the 7? If the AL wanted to I'm sure they could have tracked down the Pharos and made life hell for Roboute during Imperium Secundus, but they didn't so I don't really think they took offense to their actions like how the WB did to the UM or IW to IF.

Back on hand, I don't think any of the chapters would object to Roboute's rule of the Imperium. They may get a bit defensive if Roboute puts his hand too far down in their proverbial cookie jar but as an overall commander they'd respect him immensely. I know it's common and sometimes liked to on Roboute but I think it's unfair most of the time, he's still a Primarch and a son of the Emperor, and a well rounded one at that. In universe the loyalists Primarchs by now were revered as saints basically, so if a chapter heard that a Primarch was here they'd not really care which primarch, they'd follow him. We saw this with Vulkan in the war of the beast series, all of the IF descendants were willing to defer to the Primarch, even if he wasn't their Primarch. Sure friction might come later but the initial reaction would be completely positive, and generally I don't think many chapters would actually interact with him personally for any extended amount of time.

R0bert, good call on the War of the Beast incident - it's sometimes easy to forget that we've already had a Primarch return since they all left.

As we saw, the Imperium largely all rallied behind Vulkan, including the entirety of the Imperial Fists LEGION. That was with the Beast attacking - I'm sure that Guilliman coming as the Imperium is SPLIT IN TWO would be welcomed with open arms.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

He made the Alpha Legion's choice a lot easier anyway - up until Legion, Roboute was part of the reason the Alpha Legion switched side. And he did more than nudge the Word Bearers along when he burned Monarchia to the ground and his Ultramarines butchered the civilians, directly leading to Lorgar's search for the Old Gods.

Guilliman gave him the reason to. While he might not have intended to insult Alpharius, Guilliman didn't have the charisma and intrapersonal skills of Sanguinius or Horus. Saying someone's strategy is "a waste of the Emperor's bolt shells" isn't exactly diplomatic. It's pretty conclusive in Extermination.

I can't really see Guilliman saying the blunt truth about Alpharius' way of war having had meaningful impact on someone who would otherwise have been Loyal. The old fluff said the Alpha Legion got so obsessed with proving itself it desired to fight other Space Marines to demonstrate their superiority. Being closer to Horus led Alpharius that way. I don't see Guilliman as having much impact on the situation. Blaming Guilliman for Monarchia was unfair. He did what the Emperor ordered him to as any other Legion would have.


Guilliman wasn't that diplomatic but snubbing Alpharius doesn't strike me as having a significant influence on Alpharius' decision, pre or post Legion fluff.

Horus was the only one who appreciated Alpharius' strategic genius, and while Curze and a few others disapproved of them, only Guilliman was thick enough to actually confront a brother and tell him to wage war. Besting the Ultramarines, with their vaunted record, fed perfectly into the Alpha Legion's little brother complex.

And "just obeying orders" has never been a very good excuse, especially when the result is the wholesale slaughter of millions (billions?).

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

ChazSexington wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I think the only Primarch to drive anyone to Chaos was Roboute.

He made the Alpha Legion's choice a lot easier anyway - up until Legion, Roboute was part of the reason the Alpha Legion switched side.

Yes, but you could say that the fact the Alpha Legion were distrusted by MOST Legions as being PART of the reason too. Guilliman told Alpharius what he thought, but he was hardly the only Primarch to have that opinion.

And he did more than nudge the Word Bearers along when he burned Monarchia to the ground and his Ultramarines butchered the civilians, directly leading to Lorgar's search for the Old Gods.

But seriously off topic now.

They followed the Emperor's orders, overseen by him. It wasn't their decision or desire. If not Guilliman, the Emperor would have had any other Legion do it - perhaps even the Sons of Horus, or Space Wolves (again - exactly what the Space Wolves were GOING to do to Magnus, without the kill order added by Horus).

However you cut it, Guilliman was no different to Russ, except Russ took it further and went to actively KILL Magnus.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:


Peturabo turned due to his paranoia and pride. Alpharius seems to have turned due to pride and... whatever his reasons were for going along with the Cabal. Either way, Alpharius turning wasn't Guilliman's fault.

Guilliman gave him the reason to. While he might not have intended to insult Alpharius, Guilliman didn't have the charisma and intrapersonal skills of Sanguinius or Horus. Saying someone's strategy is "a waste of the Emperor's bolt shells" isn't exactly diplomatic. It's pretty conclusive in Extermination.

Hardly. It's no worse than what Russ and Angron have said to eachother during the Night of the Wolf. Again, Guilliman wasn't the nicest guy, but he wasn't anywhere near as bad as Lion actively snubbing Horus, Angron being confrontational with EVERYONE, Perty and Dorn being at eachother's throats, etc etc - even if Guilliman was responsible for turning a Legion Traitor, he wasn't the only one.

Russ did very clearly drive a Legion into rebellion, much against their own will, I agree. I don't think we disagree, I didn't mean to convey that I thought Guilliman was the only one to mess up. Guilliman did eventually drive the Word Bearers into rebellion and allow the Heresy to truly begin, so he might be more culpable than others, but there were certainly others. I mean, nobody on the Traitor side really got on with anyone but Horus (Magnus and Lorgar as an exception).

 ChazSexington wrote:
Horus was the only one who appreciated Alpharius' strategic genius, and while Curze and a few others disapproved of them, only Guilliman was thick enough to actually confront a brother and tell him to wage war. Besting the Ultramarines, with their vaunted record, fed perfectly into the Alpha Legion's little brother complex.

And "just obeying orders" has never been a very good excuse, especially when the result is the wholesale slaughter of millions (billions?).

How is it thick for military leaders to discuss war? Guilliman can't be blamed for the fact that Alpharius is deranged.
Just obeying orders is a good excuse when there is no reasonable alternative. Would openly rebelling against the Emperor help? Probably not, by taking part in the action the Ultramarines were at least able to carry out evacuations.

Animus wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
Horus was the only one who appreciated Alpharius' strategic genius, and while Curze and a few others disapproved of them, only Guilliman was thick enough to actually confront a brother and tell him to wage war. Besting the Ultramarines, with their vaunted record, fed perfectly into the Alpha Legion's little brother complex.

And "just obeying orders" has never been a very good excuse, especially when the result is the wholesale slaughter of millions (billions?).

How is it thick for military leaders to discuss war? Guilliman can't be blamed for the fact that Alpharius is deranged.
Just obeying orders is a good excuse when there is no reasonable alternative. Would openly rebelling against the Emperor help? Probably not, by taking part in the action the Ultramarines were at least able to carry out evacuations.

Talking is discussing the pros and cons of Alpharius and his way of doing things. Guilliman was more "you're wrong, do it my way. Look how much better than you I am. Look."

pm713 wrote:

Which they felt they had to do after Mr Braggart came along. It's not solely his fault but he's a decent contributor.

The Alpha Legion was already fighting inefficiently. It was Alpharius' pride that compelled him to fight greater and greater opposition. It's why Guilliman was trying to advise him (albeit undiplomatically) on fighting the Great Crusade.

ChazSexington wrote:Horus was the only one who appreciated Alpharius' strategic genius, and while Curze and a few others disapproved of them, only Guilliman was thick enough to actually confront a brother and tell him to wage war. Besting the Ultramarines, with their vaunted record, fed perfectly into the Alpha Legion's little brother complex.

And "just obeying orders" has never been a very good excuse, especially when the result is the wholesale slaughter of millions (billions?).

Guilliman wasn't the only one who did that (Russ tried it with Angron for one thing) but I find it unlikely that the Primarchs didn't routinely discuss strategy when they met up. They spent most of their lives conducting campaigns so I imagine it came up a lot. Alpharius' fall was entirely his own doing. No Chaos influence, nothing other than people asking him to turn against the Emperor and him choosing to do it.

Considering disobeying wouldn't have changed anything and they evacuated the vast majority of the city if I recall correctly, yeah, I think following orders is a decent excuse. Any other Primarch (including Lorgar if it was another Primarch being sanctioned) would have done the same (some without limiting civilian casualties). What would disobeying orders have done anyway? Lead to the Emperor sanctioning Guilliman as well?

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
Horus was the only one who appreciated Alpharius' strategic genius, and while Curze and a few others disapproved of them, only Guilliman was thick enough to actually confront a brother and tell him to wage war. Besting the Ultramarines, with their vaunted record, fed perfectly into the Alpha Legion's little brother complex.

And "just obeying orders" has never been a very good excuse, especially when the result is the wholesale slaughter of millions (billions?).

How is it thick for military leaders to discuss war? Guilliman can't be blamed for the fact that Alpharius is deranged.
Just obeying orders is a good excuse when there is no reasonable alternative. Would openly rebelling against the Emperor help? Probably not, by taking part in the action the Ultramarines were at least able to carry out evacuations.

Talking is discussing the pros and cons of Alpharius and his way of doing things. Guilliman was more "you're wrong, do it my way. Look how much better than you I am. Look."

They are described as having a debate, so clearly the pros and cons would have been discussed, Guilliman just ended the debate by pointing out the superior record of the Ultramarines.

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
Horus was the only one who appreciated Alpharius' strategic genius, and while Curze and a few others disapproved of them, only Guilliman was thick enough to actually confront a brother and tell him to wage war. Besting the Ultramarines, with their vaunted record, fed perfectly into the Alpha Legion's little brother complex.

And "just obeying orders" has never been a very good excuse, especially when the result is the wholesale slaughter of millions (billions?).

How is it thick for military leaders to discuss war? Guilliman can't be blamed for the fact that Alpharius is deranged.
Just obeying orders is a good excuse when there is no reasonable alternative. Would openly rebelling against the Emperor help? Probably not, by taking part in the action the Ultramarines were at least able to carry out evacuations.

Talking is discussing the pros and cons of Alpharius and his way of doing things. Guilliman was more "you're wrong, do it my way. Look how much better than you I am. Look."

They are described as having a debate, so clearly the pros and cons would have been discussed, Guilliman just ended the debate by pointing out the superior record of the Ultramarines.

Which is a somewhat silly comparison. One comes from a well established network of worlds that had been stable well before the Primarch came along. The other was a pirate. That's like bragging the US would win against 1700's era armies.

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
Horus was the only one who appreciated Alpharius' strategic genius, and while Curze and a few others disapproved of them, only Guilliman was thick enough to actually confront a brother and tell him to wage war. Besting the Ultramarines, with their vaunted record, fed perfectly into the Alpha Legion's little brother complex.

And "just obeying orders" has never been a very good excuse, especially when the result is the wholesale slaughter of millions (billions?).

How is it thick for military leaders to discuss war? Guilliman can't be blamed for the fact that Alpharius is deranged.
Just obeying orders is a good excuse when there is no reasonable alternative. Would openly rebelling against the Emperor help? Probably not, by taking part in the action the Ultramarines were at least able to carry out evacuations.

Talking is discussing the pros and cons of Alpharius and his way of doing things. Guilliman was more "you're wrong, do it my way. Look how much better than you I am. Look."

They are described as having a debate, so clearly the pros and cons would have been discussed, Guilliman just ended the debate by pointing out the superior record of the Ultramarines.

Which is a somewhat silly comparison. One comes from a well established network of worlds that had been stable well before the Primarch came along. The other was a pirate. That's like bragging the US would win against 1700's era armies.

It's not silly at all, they were both the heads of a Space Marine legion, if one is doing better the other can emulate it.

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
Horus was the only one who appreciated Alpharius' strategic genius, and while Curze and a few others disapproved of them, only Guilliman was thick enough to actually confront a brother and tell him to wage war. Besting the Ultramarines, with their vaunted record, fed perfectly into the Alpha Legion's little brother complex.

And "just obeying orders" has never been a very good excuse, especially when the result is the wholesale slaughter of millions (billions?).

How is it thick for military leaders to discuss war? Guilliman can't be blamed for the fact that Alpharius is deranged.
Just obeying orders is a good excuse when there is no reasonable alternative. Would openly rebelling against the Emperor help? Probably not, by taking part in the action the Ultramarines were at least able to carry out evacuations.

Talking is discussing the pros and cons of Alpharius and his way of doing things. Guilliman was more "you're wrong, do it my way. Look how much better than you I am. Look."

They are described as having a debate, so clearly the pros and cons would have been discussed, Guilliman just ended the debate by pointing out the superior record of the Ultramarines.

Which is a somewhat silly comparison. One comes from a well established network of worlds that had been stable well before the Primarch came along. The other was a pirate. That's like bragging the US would win against 1700's era armies.

It's not silly at all, they were both the heads of a Space Marine legion, if one is doing better the other can emulate it.

They weren't really better though just different. The point of the AL was to sneak around and bypass the fortifications. UM would spend ages hammering at them or call their friends and leave.

pm713 wrote:
]
They weren't really better though just different. The point of the AL was to sneak around and bypass the fortifications. UM would spend ages hammering at them or call their friends and leave.

Yet the Alpha Legion were considered to be wasteful, while the Ultramarines had the fastest planetary conquest rate. Alpharius' inferiority complex certainly didn't see it that way either.

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
]
They weren't really better though just different. The point of the AL was to sneak around and bypass the fortifications. UM would spend ages hammering at them or call their friends and leave.

Yet the Alpha Legion were considered to be wasteful, while the Ultramarines had the fastest planetary conquest rate. Alpharius' inferiority complex certainly didn't see it that way either.

They should have just spent months dying. Much better plan.

Having a pre-established network of planets is very helpful.

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
]
They weren't really better though just different. The point of the AL was to sneak around and bypass the fortifications. UM would spend ages hammering at them or call their friends and leave.

Yet the Alpha Legion were considered to be wasteful, while the Ultramarines had the fastest planetary conquest rate. Alpharius' inferiority complex certainly didn't see it that way either.

They should have just spent months dying. Much better plan.

Having a pre-established network of planets is very helpful.

Ultras had fewer casualties too. It's not impossible to set up a network either.

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
]
They weren't really better though just different. The point of the AL was to sneak around and bypass the fortifications. UM would spend ages hammering at them or call their friends and leave.

Yet the Alpha Legion were considered to be wasteful, while the Ultramarines had the fastest planetary conquest rate. Alpharius' inferiority complex certainly didn't see it that way either.

They should have just spent months dying. Much better plan.

Having a pre-established network of planets is very helpful.

Ultras had fewer casualties too. It's not impossible to set up a network either.

You miss my point. You can set one up and spend time getting people good at it. But in that time Guilliman is still singing about how awesome he is after getting everything on his silver platter.

I didn't find anything about the casualties. Any source?