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pm713 wrote:
You miss my point. You can set one up and spend time getting people good at it. But in that time Guilliman is still singing about how awesome he is after getting everything on his silver platter.

I didn't find anything about the casualties. Any source?

Who cares what Guilliman is singing about? You'd have to have a massive ego to care about the fact that your brother thinks he does something better than you to the point that you're willing to kill him.
As for the casualties thing it's been in from codex Ultramarines, but I've only the latest Codex Space marines to hand, page 22.

Because of their strong gene-stock base and Roboute Guilliman’s tactical expertise, the Ultramarines soon became the largest Space Marine Legion, having more recruits and suffering fewer casualties than any of the other Legions.

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
You miss my point. You can set one up and spend time getting people good at it. But in that time Guilliman is still singing about how awesome he is after getting everything on his silver platter.

I didn't find anything about the casualties. Any source?

Who cares what Guilliman is singing about? You'd have to have a massive ego to care about the fact that your brother thinks he does something better than you to the point that you're willing to kill him.
As for the casualties thing it's been in from codex Ultramarines, but I've only the latest Codex Space marines to hand, page 22.

Because of their strong gene-stock base and Roboute Guilliman’s tactical expertise, the Ultramarines soon became the largest Space Marine Legion, having more recruits and suffering fewer casualties than any of the other Legions.

I can't think of a single Primarch that didn't have some kind of mental flaw. And really a big ego is a relatively small one compared to some of them. Plus Girlyman isn't the sole reason for Alpharius going with Horus but he is a contributor.

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
You miss my point. You can set one up and spend time getting people good at it. But in that time Guilliman is still singing about how awesome he is after getting everything on his silver platter.

I didn't find anything about the casualties. Any source?

Who cares what Guilliman is singing about? You'd have to have a massive ego to care about the fact that your brother thinks he does something better than you to the point that you're willing to kill him.
As for the casualties thing it's been in from codex Ultramarines, but I've only the latest Codex Space marines to hand, page 22.

Because of their strong gene-stock base and Roboute Guilliman’s tactical expertise, the Ultramarines soon became the largest Space Marine Legion, having more recruits and suffering fewer casualties than any of the other Legions.

I can't think of a single Primarch that didn't have some kind of mental flaw. And really a big ego is a relatively small one compared to some of them. Plus Girlyman isn't the sole reason for Alpharius going with Horus but he is a contributor.

You can't call it a small flaw when it leads to him turning on the Imperium and trying to kill everyone. It's simply not fair to call Guilliman a contributor, because he acted in no way to justify what the Alpha Legion did.
Merely disagreeing with someone doesn't make you responsible for what they did afterwards of their own volition.

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
]
They weren't really better though just different. The point of the AL was to sneak around and bypass the fortifications. UM would spend ages hammering at them or call their friends and leave.

Yet the Alpha Legion were considered to be wasteful, while the Ultramarines had the fastest planetary conquest rate. Alpharius' inferiority complex certainly didn't see it that way either.

They should have just spent months dying. Much better plan.

Having a pre-established network of planets is very helpful.

Ultras had fewer casualties too. It's not impossible to set up a network either.

You miss my point.

You rather miss the point that even before Guilliman was trying to show Alpharius a better way, Alpharius was still wasting time doing things way more drawn out than even Covert style operations need to be done, plus there is a time and place for them, every single compliance operation is not the time or place. Guilliman had already been present for the chastising of one brother for wasting time on the crusade, perhaps he was trying to give a warning as well.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
]
They weren't really better though just different. The point of the AL was to sneak around and bypass the fortifications. UM would spend ages hammering at them or call their friends and leave.

Yet the Alpha Legion were considered to be wasteful, while the Ultramarines had the fastest planetary conquest rate. Alpharius' inferiority complex certainly didn't see it that way either.

They should have just spent months dying. Much better plan.

Having a pre-established network of planets is very helpful.

Ultras had fewer casualties too. It's not impossible to set up a network either.

You miss my point.

You rather miss the point that even before Guilliman was trying to show Alpharius a better way, Alpharius was still wasting time doing things way more drawn out than even Covert style operations need to be done, plus there is a time and place for them, every single compliance operation is not the time or place. Guilliman had already been present for the chastising of one brother for wasting time on the crusade, perhaps he was trying to give a warning as well.

A good theory, that seems VERY possiable. Gulliman did NOT enjoy being used to deliver the object lesson to Lorgar. (something even Lorgar figured out, there was no Malice in it) he likely wanted to avoid a repeat.

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
You miss my point. You can set one up and spend time getting people good at it. But in that time Guilliman is still singing about how awesome he is after getting everything on his silver platter.

I didn't find anything about the casualties. Any source?

Who cares what Guilliman is singing about? You'd have to have a massive ego to care about the fact that your brother thinks he does something better than you to the point that you're willing to kill him.
As for the casualties thing it's been in from codex Ultramarines, but I've only the latest Codex Space marines to hand, page 22.

Because of their strong gene-stock base and Roboute Guilliman’s tactical expertise, the Ultramarines soon became the largest Space Marine Legion, having more recruits and suffering fewer casualties than any of the other Legions.

I can't think of a single Primarch that didn't have some kind of mental flaw. And really a big ego is a relatively small one compared to some of them. Plus Girlyman isn't the sole reason for Alpharius going with Horus but he is a contributor.

You can't call it a small flaw when it leads to him turning on the Imperium and trying to kill everyone. It's simply not fair to call Guilliman a contributor, because he acted in no way to justify what the Alpha Legion did.
Merely disagreeing with someone doesn't make you responsible for what they did afterwards of their own volition.

Not disagreeing. Taunting and being a general donkey cave. On top of which the reason Alpharius turned was he could go with Roboute and the Emperor who are at best uncaring lunatics or with his friend. That's hardly insane.

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
You miss my point. You can set one up and spend time getting people good at it. But in that time Guilliman is still singing about how awesome he is after getting everything on his silver platter.

I didn't find anything about the casualties. Any source?

Who cares what Guilliman is singing about? You'd have to have a massive ego to care about the fact that your brother thinks he does something better than you to the point that you're willing to kill him.
As for the casualties thing it's been in from codex Ultramarines, but I've only the latest Codex Space marines to hand, page 22.

Because of their strong gene-stock base and Roboute Guilliman’s tactical expertise, the Ultramarines soon became the largest Space Marine Legion, having more recruits and suffering fewer casualties than any of the other Legions.

I can't think of a single Primarch that didn't have some kind of mental flaw. And really a big ego is a relatively small one compared to some of them. Plus Girlyman isn't the sole reason for Alpharius going with Horus but he is a contributor.

You can't call it a small flaw when it leads to him turning on the Imperium and trying to kill everyone. It's simply not fair to call Guilliman a contributor, because he acted in no way to justify what the Alpha Legion did.
Merely disagreeing with someone doesn't make you responsible for what they did afterwards of their own volition.

Not disagreeing. Taunting and being a general donkey cave. On top of which the reason Alpharius turned was he could go with Roboute and the Emperor who are at best uncaring lunatics or with his friend. That's hardly insane.

What Guilliman said was hardly TAUNTING. It was a military discussion, and Guilliman (quite sensibly) pointed out that Alpharius could have been more efficient. I doubt it's what pushed him over the edge, but IF it did, that's some INCREDIBLY thin skin from Alpharius.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
You miss my point. You can set one up and spend time getting people good at it. But in that time Guilliman is still singing about how awesome he is after getting everything on his silver platter.

I didn't find anything about the casualties. Any source?

Who cares what Guilliman is singing about? You'd have to have a massive ego to care about the fact that your brother thinks he does something better than you to the point that you're willing to kill him.
As for the casualties thing it's been in from codex Ultramarines, but I've only the latest Codex Space marines to hand, page 22.

Because of their strong gene-stock base and Roboute Guilliman’s tactical expertise, the Ultramarines soon became the largest Space Marine Legion, having more recruits and suffering fewer casualties than any of the other Legions.

I can't think of a single Primarch that didn't have some kind of mental flaw. And really a big ego is a relatively small one compared to some of them. Plus Girlyman isn't the sole reason for Alpharius going with Horus but he is a contributor.

You can't call it a small flaw when it leads to him turning on the Imperium and trying to kill everyone. It's simply not fair to call Guilliman a contributor, because he acted in no way to justify what the Alpha Legion did.
Merely disagreeing with someone doesn't make you responsible for what they did afterwards of their own volition.

Not disagreeing. Taunting and being a general donkey cave. On top of which the reason Alpharius turned was he could go with Roboute and the Emperor who are at best uncaring lunatics or with his friend. That's hardly insane.

What Guilliman said was hardly TAUNTING. It was a military discussion, and Guilliman (quite sensibly) pointed out that Alpharius could have been more efficient. I doubt it's what pushed him over the edge, but IF it did, that's some INCREDIBLY thin skin from Alpharius.

And what part of that requires going "look how good I am"? None of it.

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
What Guilliman said was hardly TAUNTING. It was a military discussion, and Guilliman (quite sensibly) pointed out that Alpharius could have been more efficient. I doubt it's what pushed him over the edge, but IF it did, that's some INCREDIBLY thin skin from Alpharius.

And what part of that requires going "look how good I am"? None of it.

Well, except to show that Guilliman isn't just talking from his ass and actually does know a thing or two about conquest.
After all, Guilliman WAS one of the top three Primarchs in terms of successes (Lion for tactics, Horus in general, and Guilliman for logistics, speed and military efficiency - least casualties and most recruits).

Besides, where exactly did Guilliman say "look how good I am"?

pm713 wrote:
Not disagreeing. Taunting and being a general donkey cave. On top of which the reason Alpharius turned was he could go with Roboute and the Emperor who are at best uncaring lunatics or with his friend. That's hardly insane.

Yes, disagreeing. They disagreed on how best to run a Legion and debated this. Guilliman eventually pointed out that his Legion's record was superior to Alpharius'. That's not a taunt or being a donkey cave, that's Guilliman trying to show evidence that he's right.
It's totally insane to try and kill people because they disagreed with you and you're more friendly with others. If my friend asked me to blow up parliament and my reasoning for agreeing was that a member of the cabinet was smug at me one time then I'd be insane.

He didn't.

Alpharius did what he did because he could, and Guilliman took exception to the fact he was wasting the Emperor's time and bullets, and doing more damage than was necessary. Guilliman was all about making sure a world entered the Imperium in good condition.

 Crazyterran wrote:
He didn't.

Alpharius did what he did because he could, and Guilliman took exception to the fact he was wasting the Emperor's time and bullets, and doing more damage than was necessary. Guilliman was all about making sure a world entered the Imperium in good condition.

Plus Alpha legion was losing space marines needlessly. Actually what Alpharius actually showed was that Alpha Legion WASN'T good in strategy losing ammunition and manpower while archieving results slower with worse result for Imperium in the end. No wonder his methods weren't appreciated...

If only he would have used his supposed strategic genius to actually conquer faster and efficiently than other legions. That would have earned him all the praise he needed.

tneva82 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
He didn't.

Alpharius did what he did because he could, and Guilliman took exception to the fact he was wasting the Emperor's time and bullets, and doing more damage than was necessary. Guilliman was all about making sure a world entered the Imperium in good condition.

Plus Alpha legion was losing space marines needlessly. Actually what Alpharius actually showed was that Alpha Legion WASN'T good in strategy losing ammunition and manpower while archieving results slower with worse result for Imperium in the end. No wonder his methods weren't appreciated...

If only he would have used his supposed strategic genius to actually conquer faster and efficiently than other legions. That would have earned him all the praise he needed.

yeah alpharius basicly used a "Goldberg machine" approuch to Conquest, a needlessly inefficant design that achomplish something that could have been done far far easier.

BrianDavion wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
He didn't.

Alpharius did what he did because he could, and Guilliman took exception to the fact he was wasting the Emperor's time and bullets, and doing more damage than was necessary. Guilliman was all about making sure a world entered the Imperium in good condition.

Plus Alpha legion was losing space marines needlessly. Actually what Alpharius actually showed was that Alpha Legion WASN'T good in strategy losing ammunition and manpower while archieving results slower with worse result for Imperium in the end. No wonder his methods weren't appreciated...

If only he would have used his supposed strategic genius to actually conquer faster and efficiently than other legions. That would have earned him all the praise he needed.

yeah alpharius basicly used a "Goldberg machine" approuch to Conquest, a needlessly inefficant design that achomplish something that could have been done far far easier.

Did Alpharius ever have a reason to give two gaks about Emp's designs on the galaxy?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
He didn't.

Alpharius did what he did because he could, and Guilliman took exception to the fact he was wasting the Emperor's time and bullets, and doing more damage than was necessary. Guilliman was all about making sure a world entered the Imperium in good condition.

Plus Alpha legion was losing space marines needlessly. Actually what Alpharius actually showed was that Alpha Legion WASN'T good in strategy losing ammunition and manpower while archieving results slower with worse result for Imperium in the end. No wonder his methods weren't appreciated...

If only he would have used his supposed strategic genius to actually conquer faster and efficiently than other legions. That would have earned him all the praise he needed.

yeah alpharius basicly used a "Goldberg machine" approuch to Conquest, a needlessly inefficant design that achomplish something that could have been done far far easier.

Did Alpharius ever have a reason to give two gaks about Emp's designs on the galaxy?

Sure. He accepted the job. One would assume a sane person with a good work ethic would wish to do the best job possiable when he takes a job

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
He didn't.

Alpharius did what he did because he could, and Guilliman took exception to the fact he was wasting the Emperor's time and bullets, and doing more damage than was necessary. Guilliman was all about making sure a world entered the Imperium in good condition.

Plus Alpha legion was losing space marines needlessly. Actually what Alpharius actually showed was that Alpha Legion WASN'T good in strategy losing ammunition and manpower while archieving results slower with worse result for Imperium in the end. No wonder his methods weren't appreciated...

If only he would have used his supposed strategic genius to actually conquer faster and efficiently than other legions. That would have earned him all the praise he needed.

yeah alpharius basicly used a "Goldberg machine" approuch to Conquest, a needlessly inefficant design that achomplish something that could have been done far far easier.

Did Alpharius ever have a reason to give two gaks about Emp's designs on the galaxy?

Sure. He accepted the job. One would assume a sane person with a good work ethic would wish to do the best job possiable when he takes a job

So, Alpharius could have been ambivalent about Emp's plans and just having fun.

 EmpNortonII wrote:



So, Alpharius could have been ambivalent about Emp's plans and just having fun.

I mean, possibly? We really don't have any information on how Alpharius and Omegon felt about the Emperor, it's not likely they hated him but it doesn't seem they particularly loved him either (the whole killing him to defeat Chaos thing). Now his plans may be a separate thing entirely, but again they were willing to abandon it to "save humanity" so based on that it does seem they were apathetic about it at worst, at best they might have believed in the Emperor's plan until the Cabal, and then thought his plans were meaningless anyway after. As an aside I think it's funny Alpharius and Omegon were swayed so quickly by the Cabal. Both Primarchs run their legion based on misdirection and misinformation so I feel like their response should have been much more skeptical. Or maybe they were, and just said yes so the Cabal would let them go (I don't really see the Cabal just letting them leave if they refused) and planned on sabotaging Horus' rebellion? That would explain some of their behavior (destroying that one station, the WS thing), and maybe they attacked the SW because they destroyed the TS and thought just maybe Russ was following Horus' orders not because he was duped but because he was in on the plan too? But that doesn't explain the Seventh Serpent or sabotaging the RG by stealing the genetic data also. Basically with the AL who knows? I hardly expect every head of the Hydra to work well together though, as they are so independent I doubt all the heads know what the others are doing, not to mention the feet and tail XD.

Semi off topic from the off topic (plus Spoilers for Praetorian of Dorn)

Didn't read spoilers.

Anyways, I think there was an original topic somewhere.....

Kap'n Krump wrote:Probably the worst thing that could happen is the lion waking up next. From what I can tell, he always resented Horus being picked as warmaster over him, and if he wakes up and ANOTHER primarch is in charge besides him, he's probably not going to be too happy. Like, Horus Heresy part 2: electric boogaloo levels of unhappy.

I remember NOTHING of Jonson being jealous from any fluff that I read. Is that a new development? Luthor was the jealous one, not Jonson. He was about as loyal and by-the-book as possible.

 Just Tony wrote:

Kap'n Krump wrote:Probably the worst thing that could happen is the lion waking up next. From what I can tell, he always resented Horus being picked as warmaster over him, and if he wakes up and ANOTHER primarch is in charge besides him, he's probably not going to be too happy. Like, Horus Heresy part 2: electric boogaloo levels of unhappy.

I remember NOTHING of Jonson being jealous from any fluff that I read. Is that a new development? Luthor was the jealous one, not Jonson. He was about as loyal and by-the-book as possible.

IIRC there's no line in a book that says "The Lion was jealous of Horus" but some of his actions etc indicate a degree of Jealousy. that said I think at the same time MOST Primarchs felt that way to one degree or another. Parituclalry the more sucessful ones. most where capable of stepping back and going "yeah ok Horus is a good pick." but you can be sure plenty also would have loved to have been named. The Lion and Gulliman both I think would have relished being named warmaster (Sanguinis is proably the only primarch whom would not have)

So it was conjecture someone tried to pass off as fact? Got it.






In my mind, it all depends on what mindset the writers are writing the Astartes from. If it's from the Ward era where every non Ultramarines chapter or founding Legion secretly wishes they were Ultramarines, then I guess they would follow without event. If ANY other writer handled it, there would be some autonomy. Now whether that would lead to friction, I guess it depends on the headstrong nature of whatever Chapter was being addressed at the time. Raven Guard? I doubt it. Dark Angels? Pursue their own ends but make it look like they are towing the line wholeheartedly. Space Wolves? Yeah, forget about it.

 Just Tony wrote:

Kap'n Krump wrote:Probably the worst thing that could happen is the lion waking up next. From what I can tell, he always resented Horus being picked as warmaster over him, and if he wakes up and ANOTHER primarch is in charge besides him, he's probably not going to be too happy. Like, Horus Heresy part 2: electric boogaloo levels of unhappy.

I remember NOTHING of Jonson being jealous from any fluff that I read. Is that a new development? Luthor was the jealous one, not Jonson. He was about as loyal and by-the-book as possible.

He hands over siege weaponry to Perturabo at the outset of the Heresy (as he didn't know Perturabo had gone rogue) in exchange for his support in becoming Warmaster once Horus was defeated. These weapons were later used in cracking the defences of the Imperial Palace. He most definitely wanted the rank of Warmaster, but he didn't ever suggest Horus din't deserve it (at the time).

One thing wanting title after previous now traitor is defeated, another thing of being jealous of him in the first place

My understanding was the Lion thought he was a better leader than Horus was so he deserved it more and Horus only got the job because he was more likeable.

pm713 wrote:
My understanding was the Lion thought he was a better leader than Horus was so he deserved it more and Horus only got the job because he was more likeable.

Which shows the Lion's blindness as to one of the important realities of high level leadership. the Lion's.... likability issues though make sense, when you consider that of all the primarchs he's really the only one who had to deal with a large scale revolt within his own Legion

I'm fairly sure it says in Horus Rising that the Lion saw the appointment of Horus as a bit of a snub because the Lion though he deserved It more than Horus.

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
My understanding was the Lion thought he was a better leader than Horus was so he deserved it more and Horus only got the job because he was more likeable.

Which shows the Lion's blindness as to one of the important realities of high level leadership. the Lion's.... likability issues though make sense, when you consider that of all the primarchs he's really the only one who had to deal with a large scale revolt within his own Legion

To be fair the Lion probably wouldn't see that as important to leading an army. He gives orders people do them. Liking has nothing to do with it. Of course there's a reason he had a revolt.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
I'm fairly sure it says in Horus Rising that the Lion saw the appointment of Horus as a bit of a snub because the Lion though he deserved It more than Horus.

It does say that, you're right.

Even Horus didn't want to be Warmaster - he thought Sanguinius would be better suited for it. However, we do know that Lion definitely saw it as a snub. As for Guilliman, I wouldn't be surprised if he had something against Horus for it, but I don't think there's any evidence. I vaguely recall him talking about it in Know No Fear, but I can't remember.

I've never seen any real reason why Sanguinius was so good beyond making him dying more tragic.

He was the most popular brother, the only one that got along with all of the Primarchs. Even Horus had Corax to share some dislike with.