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Well preorder. But yeah way sooner than I expected. Of course can't yet order since I don't have 250£ to spare and won't pay 15% surplus for shipping but later in this year.

Gah I am so happy about this!! Yesssssssssssssssssss

Well, I'll be damned. New rulebook three months earlier then I thought. I'm pleasantly surprised!

Outstanding!!!

tneva82 wrote:
Well preorder. But yeah way sooner than I expected. Of course can't yet order since I don't have 250£ to spare and won't pay 15% surplus for shipping but later in this year.

15% will be like $7... how is that an issue?

Hate to waste money needlessly. I know i will order stuff later and i can play for a while with what i have already

I'll miss Invisibility. I like the profile of Mind Howl, but I'd rather they just made Invis harder to pull off.

Callous_Typhon wrote:
I'll miss Invisibility. I like the profile of Mind Howl, but I'd rather they just made Invis harder to pull off.

The reason Invisibility was problematic was not just due to odd rules about Snapshots that prevented using blasts/templates, as well as the rules promoting building a bigger rock, but because the 7e psychic system scales in a wonky form.

Say you score 3 successes. Your opponent needs about 18 dice for denial to have an approximately 60% chance to deny. Combinatorial statistics are nasty like that. Say you roll 5 successes to manifest, and your opponent rolls 4 to deny. It's the same as your opponent rolling 0 successes.

Personally, my view of things is that the 7e Psyker System would work best if it added more WC but prevented "pooling," and it used "degrees of success," instead of "all-or-nothing."

Money set aside, waiting for friday!



edit: hoping warp charge pool gets constrained to the model generating it and 'deny the witch' goes back to 6th edition method..

tneva82 wrote:
Hate to waste money needlessly. I know i will order stuff later and i can play for a while with what i have already

Any chance of setting up a group FW order with your local gaming group?

 SirDonlad wrote:
Money set aside, waiting for friday!



edit: hoping warp charge pool gets constrained to the model generating it and 'deny the witch' goes back to 6th edition method..

Problem with that is that it basically nullifies any chance of really using spells except for lvl4 spells. Spells went from few psykers work and spells go off pretty much automatically to you need many psykers to power up one to get some spells.

Any spell above WC1 would be "good luck getting it off". Lvl 2 psyker would have 25% chance. That's kinda low...

Wouldn't you have a d6 warp charge to add on each turn?

'deny the witch' in 7th felt like pissing in the wind tbh: i didn't find a psychic arms-race at the list-building stage, or a game of craps each player phase 'fun' - i liked that 6th allowed me to ignore it apart from the chance to deny a power on a six when they started affecting my stuff; i don't see that opportunity in the 7th ed method.

 SirDonlad wrote:
Wouldn't you have a d6 warp charge to add on each turn?

'deny the witch' in 7th felt like pissing in the wind tbh: i didn't find a psychic arms-race at the list-building stage, or a game of craps each player phase 'fun' - i liked that 6th allowed me to ignore it apart from the chance to deny a power on a six when they started affecting my stuff; i don't see that opportunity in the 7th ed method.

Well yes but that's small amount. Also led to unscalable system. Fine for 1000 pts but once you reach 2500-3000 pts it gets real wonky. Well albeit HH helps there as there's not much psykers period. Most legions will have like 4 levels at most but let's see...2 lvl 2 psykers + d6. So in average 3.75 dice per psyker. You could count for maybe 1 WL2 spell going off per turn or 2 WL1 or WL2+WL1. With luck and risk WL2+WL1+WL1. But of course one '1' in the d6 and your spell power would basically fizzle while '6' would not help equally much to compensate on the long run.

Wait you mean psykers would be unreliable, but powerful if they were able to unleash their whole strength?

I don't think they're ever like that in the fluff. *rolleyes*

Well most of their powers even aren't THAT powerful. Summoning, invisibility and maybe couple others.

Most of the spells however aren't that powerful. With HH already getting rid of invisibility and summoning is so limited why would I spend 2/3 of my character slots to two lvl 2 psykers if they can't share the dice to ensure I might get at least one decent spell off on a turn? Even with sharing it's so weak presence it's likely better idea to bring in spartan or something instead. With the few psykers available, no summoning and now invisibility gone it's just not that broken that it would be so broken that it needs such a nerf.

Worst possible offender might be thousand sons but apart from whether that's proven fix problem there then rather than nerf psykers of other legions to uselessness. Don't do GW mistake and swing nerfbat wildly killing innocent bystanders in order to get rid of problem but attack the problem directly instead.

Yeah psykers aren't even that powerful. I mean, what ever is +3 Strength and +3 toughness? Or an out-of-phase shooting attack that doesn't have to obey the targeting rules?

Shriek was the only core shooting attack worth it, from a strict mathhammer perspective. The ability to "cheat" phases (or move-cast-run/turbo) was usually offset by the extreme inefficiency.

It's only under certain combinations (ex: a Brotherhood unit with Iron Arm) that things got crazy.

Eliminating pooling would require increasing base WC for Psykers (as a single D6 doesn't work), or alternately changing up other mechanics. One thing I am personally a fan of is adding "Pushing" as a mechanic from the RPGs. After allocating Warp Charge (to a minimum of at least 1 WC), you may "Push" by adding an additional "free die." If this die matches *any* of the other dice rolled, you suffer Perils and the Power Fails. Call it the "Madcap Magic Mushroom" rule if you will: Are you willing to risk the odds to squeeze in even more power?

Maybe this discussion should go in a separate thread?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah psykers aren't even that powerful. I mean, what ever is +3 Strength and +3 toughness? Or an out-of-phase shooting attack that doesn't have to obey the targeting rules?

Or a 25pt heavy flamer with a chance of failing and can kill the user?

They are a mixed bag is the problem. Some very good, some totally useless.
Invisibility was the worst offender sure, but it is kinda sad that an effort isn't being made to balance power levels across the disciplines.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah psykers aren't even that powerful. I mean, what ever is +3 Strength and +3 toughness? Or an out-of-phase shooting attack that doesn't have to obey the targeting rules?

When you pay arm and teeth for it and isn't hardly reliable not really.

If they are such uber monsters why you don't see librarian councels all that much? Only ones you see with plenty psykers is Thousand Sons. And if they are so broken that you feel need to limit FIX THOUSAND SONS rather than nerf other psykers.

But sure show me top tier lists with librarian councels as proof. Talk is cheap, evidence is what counts.

As a TS player I feel good with invisibility gone, never used it anyway. TS aren't broken, they pay a lot of points for the MLs, the chance of rolling some OP spell in a ML1 unit is very small, so you have to stick to lores with good primarises like divination. And Sekhmet are limited to not so good lores, therefore only 1-2 models present real threats. The lack of psykic powers hasn't been a problem when only word bearers were around, you can always use your strengths to combat psyker heavy armies.

Mindhowl in place of Invisibility is a really good change. Instead of making "deathstars" even harder to kill you have a spell that make such units worse. I like the change.

I will be preordering the rulebook.

So, the book has been delayed due to "quality issues." Spotting them before retailing is at least an improvement. I really don't want to see the heresy game lost because of farcical practices, which seems to be happening at present.

Boo hiss for delay but at least reason is nice one though as I noted in other thread timing is weird one. Are they printing these in-house or did they get print run and ordered new one after detecting enormous flaws?

Hopefully in-house printing as that's the path of least delay then.

I wonder what kind of quality issues?

"Oy! Frank! Where's the rules on assaults?"
"Right 'ere on page 49"
"What page 49?"
"..."

All the previous HH books have been printed in China, so if they have to go back to printing... back on track for March 2018!

tneva82 wrote:
Boo hiss for delay but at least reason is nice one though as I noted in other thread timing is weird one. Are they printing these in-house or did they get print run and ordered new one after detecting enormous flaws?

Hopefully in-house printing as that's the path of least delay then.

Since when does GW have in-house hardcover book printing capabilities?

 gorgon wrote:


Since when does GW have in-house hardcover book printing capabilities?

They don't.

I don't know anything about printing though. This could be a few months delay? 6? I dunno.

It's possible that they'll go to a UK-based printer to produce a small run to cover pre-orders. Then wait for the bigger portion to arrive from China (probably a couple months turnaround with shipping?).

Honestly, I'm in no rush. Which kinda makes me sad considering how I felt about 30K at the beginning of the year.

@gorgon I doubt it, FW really doesn't make very much money for gw, so I doubt that the increased cost for a short run print would get signed off. We'll just have to wait. In fairness, we have the rules for mindhowl, all the FAQ's etc. I'm not sure how much different it will be once it's released to what it is now.

 gorgon wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Boo hiss for delay but at least reason is nice one though as I noted in other thread timing is weird one. Are they printing these in-house or did they get print run and ordered new one after detecting enormous flaws?

Hopefully in-house printing as that's the path of least delay then.

Since when does GW have in-house hardcover book printing capabilities?

Dunno. I wasn't sure if that is hardcover either

This stuff is printed in China and shipped over. If anything went wrong at the Chinese end of business, like several pages duplicated or imaged blurred etc, then it wouldn't pass muster and would be pulled.

I would strongly suggest that is what happened.