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 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Can't you still just use the commissar's leadership in general?

You mean the one that's already the same as at least 2 regimental doctrine's, among other things?

Sure, but it's still mathematically worse to bring a commissar with anything that isn't conscripts now, ironically.

How is that ironic? The non-drafted soldiers don't need the shooting in the head as much as the meat shields?
I mean, someone already provided math on the Commisar not sucking for Conscripts. I understand being a little irritated that they don't work like last edition, but you can't possibly say it was balanced with the boost that the infantry as a whole got this edition.

They're going to say it anyway. Just like how termagants are just as valuable as geqs. More like termagants should be 3 pts, and geqs should be 5. That's about right.

Nids suck this edition
Astra militarum are still the best codex even after this FAQ
Whine more about how hard life is for infantry who still have a dozen ways to mitigate morale issues.
I still think commissars abilitiy should be optional but it's completely fine as it currently is written of a bit hanky under specific conditions.
Guards are a bit more balanced. Go cry me a river Waac whiners.

the_scotsman wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think this is pretty funny. AM players always mention ATSKNF so often - commissars are just ATSKNF bubbles now - for 31 points you can make 3-4 squads have ATSKNF. Yeah...I don't see too many jumping the gun to have that perk.

No. It is worse than ATSKNF, and actually generally worse than not taking a commissar to begin with.

Whaaaat? I've always been having a space marine commit seppuku before taking my re-roll, have I been playing my marines wrong this whole time?

Your model is 3-4 points. It's negligible and it's a model that would have been lost anyway if not for the +1 leadership. So it can basically be ignored. for the purposes of this point.

Martel732 wrote:
"The biggest difference that exists between Termagants and GEQ are their weapons and saves. "

Pretty big effing difference, 24" and 5+ armor.

Do not somehow try to spin that tyranid little bugs are remotely as effective as geqs. Don't even try.

Devourers are 18" range.
6 inches shorter range difference for 2 additional shots, not requiring you to maneuver to take advantage of them, and an additional point of Strength versus a Lasgun.

Additionally, there are Spike Rifles which are 18" but the same Strength as a Lasgun at Assault 1.
Fleshborers are S4 and 12" range with Assault 1 and Spinefists are 12" Pistol * S3.

Now, if you want to argue that Devourers need a price drop? I'd be fine with that argument.

Also, 6+ save versus 5+ save is a drop--but when you take into consideration that Venomthropes exist as a thing(-1 to hit units within 3" of any friendly Venomthropes) and the benefit that they get from their numbers, it's slightly understandable.

But then take into consideration that the geqs are meat shielding for a bunch of undercosted artillery. And the termagants need a big bug babysitter. No, the venomthrope does not come into a straight comparison.

xmbk wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Red_Five wrote:

fe40k wrote:
@MarNZ: Sorry Imperial factions no longer get a free pass on being overpowered this edition. They get to be balanced and re-balanced, just like every other faction. Also, you're deluding yourself if you think GW won't continue to balance the game, no matter what faction it is (say, Xenos) - as well as if you think the loss of Morale immune Conscripts [a mistake in the first place on a 3ppm model with those stats] will suddenly invalidate all the other top tier options AM has available.

I, for one, and glad Morale actually matters now - the only models that should even consider getting a free immunity would be extremely low (<5) model count, expensive, elite squads.

Morale kill should be a reasonable way of dealing with large, low priced, chaff models.

So Tyranids need to be reworked then.

The difference is that the main synapse creatures are The Big Ones with 10+ wounds.

The "main synapse creatures" that have 10+ Wounds are Hive Tyrants and Swarmlords (180 to 300 points each)--both of which have access to Tyrant Guards (37 points for 3W 3+ T5 that does NOTHING else), a unit explicitly designed since the early years to mitigate the fact that the Hive Tyrants are Monsters.
Broodlords (160 points) and Tyranid Primes (100 points if completely naked) both are 6W.
Tervigons are 14W and really are the only ones that don't have a special protection. (Probably the worst unit in the codex)
Tyranid Warriors are a Synapse unit, Zoanthropes are a unit, Shrikes are a unit. (Good synapse solution, but nothing even remotely on the level of an old commissar)
Maleceptors and Trygon Primes are solo-Synapse Monsters. (Both on the 200 points mark)

And then you have the Sporocysts' Psychic Resonator ability(if within range of a unit with the Synapse ability, then it gains Synapse). (You will never see one of those on a table, for obvious reasons)

So let's not pretend that there is some kind of innate downside that balances out Synapse, shall we? The same complaints that existed about daisy-chaining Commissars and hiding them behind LOS and what have you can easily be applied to Synapse as well.

Comments in red.

As you can see, synapse is a mechanic in which you actually have to invest a significant part of your list. And this is all to defend gants and gaunts, which are more vulnerable than a conscript.

Orange to apples.

Tyranids easily ignore morale. For pretty much every edition, I could make the list I wanted to field without paying any attention to morale and end up with all the synapse I need. A lot of your comments reference units who basically get synapse for free. Not picking a side in the argument, but Nids easily get better than Commissar levels of morale. Which is a main feature of the army, so I'm fine with it.

The important thing to look at here is units with short range weapons are forced to advance into the enemy - exposing them to more firepower than a unit that sits back and shoots 2-4 fold. While costing more with less durability. Ignoring morale is not the only thing a termagant needs to be balanced with an IG infantry. Personally I think it's laughable that gaunts have 6+ saves. they have bone armor all over them.

I was talking to a buddy of mine, and I came to the conclusion that a middle way fix would have been that a Commissar keeps his old rule, but shoots '1' normal Guard Infantryman, and shoots D6 conscripts...meaning you still lose models, and have a bit more risk with unruly conscripts.

Sometimes you'd luck out and shoot the one guy who needs shooting, or sometimes you have to cull a large portion of the squad to keep them in line. Would seem fluffy enough to me.

Nah. the solution is that 3-4 point back feild camper models should not ignore leadership.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Can't you still just use the commissar's leadership in general?

You mean the one that's already the same as at least 2 regimental doctrine's, among other things?

Sure, but it's still mathematically worse to bring a commissar with anything that isn't conscripts now, ironically.

How is that ironic? The non-drafted soldiers don't need the shooting in the head as much as the meat shields?
I mean, someone already provided math on the Commisar not sucking for Conscripts. I understand being a little irritated that they don't work like last edition, but you can't possibly say it was balanced with the boost that the infantry as a whole got this edition.

No, what's ironic is that people who never wanted to see Commissars with Conscripts again now will only ever see Commissars with Conscripts, because that's the only way they're not outright penalizing your army for the privilege of you having payed 31 points for them.

I'm not irritated, really, and I think a change is fine. I just wish it had been a change to the problem unit (conscripts) rather than a unit that has ripple effects throughout the whole list (commissars).

But, I suppose the problem is fixed now, even if an iconic Guard unit was essentially removed from anything but the most casual of games. I don't know anyone in the world who would pay 31 points to actively hurt their chances of winning; even fluff players. I think they'd rather play 1969 points and just have the commissar watch.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nah. the solution is that 3-4 point back feild camper models should not ignore leadership.

So what you really want is for Commissars to be removed altogether.

Got it.

They also have 8" movement and a toolbox of movement-enhancing abilities to get them into CC quickly. One of the gaunt's primary strengths is that it's fast, it gets that speed by going light on armor.

If you don't value speed then obviously a gaunt based list is probably not for you.

I'm sure once your local Eldar players finish unpacking their codices and re-building their armies though, you'll be so busy complaining about Eldar that you'll forget all about the Guard.

Edit:
Also in this thread, 12"-24" range is now "backfield camping", apparently. :p

Sad to see commissars are useless unless you take massive conscript blobs now. I've swapped them out for priests in the meantime - the extra melee attacks are good with catachans.

Wish they hadn't locked Genestealer cult out of regiment doctrines until after the genestealer codex released. It's kind of annoying that I'll lose so much to use the cult but not gain anything until the codex drops some time next year.

Wonder if the valhallan conscript stratagem nerf will be repeated to all the other similar strategems in other factions. Chaos cultists benefit from theirs a lot more and they aren't paying reinforcement points. That'll likely change now. I personally think reinforcement points are a stupid mechanic, but removing it would require a bunch of other stuff needing to be rewritten.

Happy to see forgeworld stuff finally updated, even if I don't have the models. Kind of funny that the Malichador tanks got left out in the cold.

Martel732 wrote:
But then take into consideration that the geqs are meat shielding for a bunch of undercosted artillery. And the termagants need a big bug babysitter. No, the venomthrope does not come into a straight comparison.

The Termagants "need" a big bug babysitter?

Gee, I wonder if you could just do something that is a unit that would want to get into those same range bands...
I made a whole list of things with Synapse. Several of them have access to the same things as Termagants do. At least one of them(Tyranid Primes) has sub-10Ws so would benefit from the "can't be targeted unless they're the closest" Character perk..

And if the GEQs are "meatshielding for a bunch of undercosted artillery", why can't I bring the Venomthrope into the straight comparison?
Manticores might be "undercosted", but they also get 4 shots per game.
Deathstrikes get to fire once per game and require a special rule to have its conditions met(roll an 8+ on a D6 with +1 per turn that has already occurred).

So the only artillery Guard have that aren't restricted to a specific number of shots per game are the Wyvern and Basilisk. The problematic Forge World stuff(Earthshaker platforms and Carriages) also got FAQ'd yesterday to no longer benefit from the Master of Ordnance's rerolls.

Also:
Guard Artillery is BS4+.

Well I see the same old people are still whining like teenage girls even after the nerf. Not surprised. Had enough of this site. It's making me not want to play anymore. Peace out.

 Elbows wrote:
I was talking to a buddy of mine, and I came to the conclusion that a middle way fix would have been that a Commissar keeps his old rule, but shoots '1' normal Guard Infantryman, and shoots D6 conscripts...meaning you still lose models, and have a bit more risk with unruly conscripts.

Sometimes you'd luck out and shoot the one guy who needs shooting, or sometimes you have to cull a large portion of the squad to keep them in line. Would seem fluffy enough to me.

They would still be utter auto-includes at d6 models.
Paying 9 points a turn for a meatshield to be fearless? Hell yes

The new rules are fine for conscripts, yes it stucks a bit more for infantry squads. Such is life. You want to keep rules as elegant as possible. Not run around with a a lot of exceptions in an attempt to achieve true balance.

Ordana wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I was talking to a buddy of mine, and I came to the conclusion that a middle way fix would have been that a Commissar keeps his old rule, but shoots '1' normal Guard Infantryman, and shoots D6 conscripts...meaning you still lose models, and have a bit more risk with unruly conscripts.

Sometimes you'd luck out and shoot the one guy who needs shooting, or sometimes you have to cull a large portion of the squad to keep them in line. Would seem fluffy enough to me.

They would still be utter auto-includes at d6 models.
Paying 9 points a turn for a meatshield to be fearless? Hell yes

The new rules are fine for conscripts, yes it stucks a bit more for infantry squads. Such is life. You want to keep rules as elegant as possible. Not run around with a a lot of exceptions in an attempt to achieve true balance.

Actually, with the way keywords and bespoke rules work--you're absolutely 100% wrong.


It would have been nothing to include an additional caveat to "Raw Recruits"(the one rule that grants an exception to Orders, allowing for Conscripts to fail on a 1, 2, or 3) that changed Conscripts while leaving Infantry Squads(something that people are already ignoring in favor of Conscripts anyways) unchanged.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
But then take into consideration that the geqs are meat shielding for a bunch of undercosted artillery. And the termagants need a big bug babysitter. No, the venomthrope does not come into a straight comparison.

The Termagants "need" a big bug babysitter?

Gee, I wonder if you could just do something that is a unit that would want to get into those same range bands...
I made a whole list of things with Synapse. Several of them have access to the same things as Termagants do. At least one of them(Tyranid Primes) has sub-10Ws so would benefit from the "can't be targeted unless they're the closest" Character perk..

And if the GEQs are "meatshielding for a bunch of undercosted artillery", why can't I bring the Venomthrope into the straight comparison?
Manticores might be "undercosted", but they also get 4 shots per game.
Deathstrikes get to fire once per game and require a special rule to have its conditions met(roll an 8+ on a D6 with +1 per turn that has already occurred).

So the only artillery Guard have that aren't restricted to a specific number of shots per game are the Wyvern and Basilisk. The problematic Forge World stuff(Earthshaker platforms and Carriages) also got FAQ'd yesterday to no longer benefit from the Master of Ordnance's rerolls.

Also:
Guard Artillery is BS4+.

The manticore is incredibly overpowered even with limited "shots". By turn 4, the game is basically decided anyway with the kind of damage that thing can cause.

I didn't want to talk about meatshielding or anything like that. YOU brought up the venomthrope. I'm just looking at one 4 pt model vs another 4 pt model. Pretty sure the 4 pt termagant has a 12" range, which makes it FAR inferior.

 ross-128 wrote:
They also have 8" movement and a toolbox of movement-enhancing abilities to get them into CC quickly. One of the gaunt's primary strengths is that it's fast, it gets that speed by going light on armor.

If you don't value speed then obviously a gaunt based list is probably not for you.

I'm sure once your local Eldar players finish unpacking their codices and re-building their armies though, you'll be so busy complaining about Eldar that you'll forget all about the Guard.

Edit:
Also in this thread, 12"-24" range is now "backfield camping", apparently. :p

No...a backfeild camper is a unit that doesn't need to advance to do it's job. Or in other words...a unit that sits on an objective and screens for tanks. Basically every AM unit is a backfeild camper.

They've somehow managed to convince themselves that every guard model ever is OP, with the possible exception of the plasma cannon sentinel (firing at ravenguard, after moving). They truly will never be satisfied.

 ross-128 wrote:
They also have 8" movement and a toolbox of movement-enhancing abilities to get them into CC quickly. One of the gaunt's primary strengths is that it's fast, it gets that speed by going light on armor.

If you don't value speed then obviously a gaunt based list is probably not for you.

I'm sure once your local Eldar players finish unpacking their codices and re-building their armies though, you'll be so busy complaining about Eldar that you'll forget all about the Guard.

Edit:
Also in this thread, 12"-24" range is now "backfield camping", apparently. :p

Gants move 6".
Gaunts move 7", but they are meele and cost 5 points.

Also, commissars are not useless. Even if you don't want to use them for infantry squads, they still give a lot of value to HWTs, SWTs, ratlings and Tempestus command squads.

It doesn't matter if IG infantry gets to fire or not. That's the problem.

 ross-128 wrote:
They've somehow managed to convince themselves that every guard model ever is OP, with the possible exception of the plasma cannon sentinel (firing at ravenguard, after moving). They truly will never be satisfied.

They can be satisfied, when their scouts have AP-3 and 5 attacks, Marines can tank 3 lascannon shots per turn, Terminators can dash across the board and murder 30 models each, all of their weapons become sniper assault weapons, and each of their HQ choices grant rerolls to every single dice roll they have.

Then they will start complaining the Captain is worthless...because the Chaplain and Librarian does his job and other things, which clearly means Marines need to be buffed again.

Ahh yes - here comes the hyperbole.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
But then take into consideration that the geqs are meat shielding for a bunch of undercosted artillery. And the termagants need a big bug babysitter. No, the venomthrope does not come into a straight comparison.

The Termagants "need" a big bug babysitter?

Gee, I wonder if you could just do something that is a unit that would want to get into those same range bands...
I made a whole list of things with Synapse. Several of them have access to the same things as Termagants do. At least one of them(Tyranid Primes) has sub-10Ws so would benefit from the "can't be targeted unless they're the closest" Character perk..

And if the GEQs are "meatshielding for a bunch of undercosted artillery", why can't I bring the Venomthrope into the straight comparison?
Manticores might be "undercosted", but they also get 4 shots per game.
Deathstrikes get to fire once per game and require a special rule to have its conditions met(roll an 8+ on a D6 with +1 per turn that has already occurred).

So the only artillery Guard have that aren't restricted to a specific number of shots per game are the Wyvern and Basilisk. The problematic Forge World stuff(Earthshaker platforms and Carriages) also got FAQ'd yesterday to no longer benefit from the Master of Ordnance's rerolls.

Also:
Guard Artillery is BS4+.

The manticore is incredibly overpowered even with limited "shots". By turn 4, the game is basically decided anyway with the kind of damage that thing can cause.

And if the Manticore is destroyed before it fires all/any of its Storm Eagles, then that's wasted points.

Vehicles != Characters. You can absolutely target them if enemy units are in the way. Not my problem if you play on tables where there are dead spots where someone can park indirect fire weapons and never have them get hit.

I didn't want to talk about meatshielding or anything like that. YOU brought up the venomthrope. I'm just looking at one 4 pt model vs another 4 pt model. Pretty sure the 4 pt termagant has a 12" range, which makes it FAR inferior.

4 point Termagant can be armed with any of the following:
Fleshborer(0 points and 12" range), Spinefists(0 points and 12" range), or Spike Rifle(0 points and 18" range).
A Devourer is 4 points extra and 18" range.

Venomthropes were brought up as you brought up that there is a "pretty big effing difference"(lol 1 point of armor and 6" of range) between GEQ and Termagants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
They also have 8" movement and a toolbox of movement-enhancing abilities to get them into CC quickly. One of the gaunt's primary strengths is that it's fast, it gets that speed by going light on armor.

If you don't value speed then obviously a gaunt based list is probably not for you.

I'm sure once your local Eldar players finish unpacking their codices and re-building their armies though, you'll be so busy complaining about Eldar that you'll forget all about the Guard.

Edit:
Also in this thread, 12"-24" range is now "backfield camping", apparently. :p

Gants move 6".
Gaunts move 7", but they are meele and cost 5 points.

Also, commissars are not useless. Even if you don't want to use them for infantry squads, they still give a lot of value to HWTs, SWTs, ratlings and Tempestus command squads.

They absolutely do not.
Special Weapon Squads are 6 models(3 with Lasguns, 3 with Specials).
Heavy Weapon Squads are 3 models, consisting of 2W each.
Ratlings are 5 models with an optional 5 more.
Tempestus Command Squads got a nerf to their points for Plasma Guns(anything BS3+ pays more now) and are 4 models in total.

If a Heavy Weapon Squad loses a model, then you're going to lose a model(meaning 2W) for Summary Execution--meaning you basically wipe out the whole squad.
Special Weapon Squads are basically going to be dead if you lose anyone in most circumstances. Same goes for Tempestus Command Squads.
And if you're referring to Heavy Weapon Teams or Special Weapon operators in Infantry Squads--you'd still be wrong, since Infantry Squads are 10 models.

Manticores have it pretty easy not being destroyed - they can deploy completely out of line of site if LOS blocking is available and have a lot of wounds. At the very least they can start the game in cover as far away from the enemy as possible. They are cheap enough to be spammed to and do way to much damage for their cost to a huge variety of targets.

Silly question: When FAQs come out, do newly printed versions of the codex get those FAQ clarifications added in?

I'm having trouble keeping track of changes.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Manticores have it pretty easy not being destroyed - they can deploy completely out of line of site if LOS blocking is available and have a lot of wounds. At the very least they can start the game in cover as far away from the enemy as possible. They are cheap enough to be spammed to and do way to much damage for their cost to a huge variety of targets.

See again how it's not my problem if you opt to play on crummy tables. If you know someone is playing Manticores, it's on you to make a stink regarding the terrain setup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cothonian wrote:
Silly question: When FAQs come out, do newly printed versions of the codex get those FAQ clarifications added in?

I'm having trouble keeping track of changes.

Not usually. The digital versions do, I think.

Man, I remember mentioning that manticores are a problem in a conscript thread and I was told not to talk about Manticores.

Now, can I talk about manticores? That they've become the target instead of Conscripts?

Also, just so I can prepare in advance, would the marine players kindly tell me ahead of time what the next IG unit on the hit-list is so I can prep for it to be nerfed as well?

 Cothonian wrote:
Silly question: When FAQs come out, do newly printed versions of the codex get those FAQ clarifications added in?

I'm having trouble keeping track of changes.

If you mean physically updated printed books, nope. In fact it's likely that they will never change (something that hasn't happened since 3.5 Chaos Codex, and that was because back then the internet wasn't as widespread as it is now and people got their erratas out of magazines).

The digital versions of the dex though will get updated. If you got the printed codex, it's a good idea to download and print out the FAQ/errata.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Man, I remember mentioning that manticores are a problem in a conscript thread and I was told not to talk about Manticores.

Now, can I talk about manticores? That they've become the target instead of Conscripts?

Also, just so I can prepare in advance, would the marine players kindly tell me ahead of time what the next IG unit on the hit-list is so I can prep for it to be nerfed as well?

If going by their answers in other threads, it will probably be:

Scions
ShadowSwords
other Baneblades
Leman Russes
HWT
Special Weapon Teams
Hellhound variants
Infantry Squads

That should have us covered to the year's end I guess?