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 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Cothonian wrote:
Silly question: When FAQs come out, do newly printed versions of the codex get those FAQ clarifications added in?

I'm having trouble keeping track of changes.

If you mean physically updated printed books, nope. In fact it's likely that they will never change (something that hasn't happened since 3.5 Chaos Codex, and that was because back then the internet wasn't as widespread as it is now and people got their erratas out of magazines).

The digital versions of the dex though will get updated. If you got the printed codex, it's a good idea to download and print out the FAQ/errata.

I could see the next big print run as having the errata'd stuff, but I don't think that will be for some time.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Cothonian wrote:
Silly question: When FAQs come out, do newly printed versions of the codex get those FAQ clarifications added in?

I'm having trouble keeping track of changes.

If you mean physically updated printed books, nope. In fact it's likely that they will never change (something that hasn't happened since 3.5 Chaos Codex, and that was because back then the internet wasn't as widespread as it is now and people got their erratas out of magazines).

The digital versions of the dex though will get updated. If you got the printed codex, it's a good idea to download and print out the FAQ/errata.

I could see the next big print run as having the errata'd stuff, but I don't think that will be for some time.

Thank you much gents

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Man, I remember mentioning that manticores are a problem in a conscript thread and I was told not to talk about Manticores.

Now, can I talk about manticores? That they've become the target instead of Conscripts?

Also, just so I can prepare in advance, would the marine players kindly tell me ahead of time what the next IG unit on the hit-list is so I can prep for it to be nerfed as well?

If going by their answers in other threads, it will probably be:

Scions
ShadowSwords
other Baneblades
Leman Russes
HWT
Special Weapon Teams
Hellhound variants
Infantry Squads

That should have us covered to the year's end I guess?

I don't think they'll go after Scions. Most of the Imperial Soup lists use them.

Well, based on how they've been talking the answer is apparently "all of them."

Though I'm sure it's partly because they don't even know what all is in the codex, or how any of it works. They just want to whine about whatever they've lost to recently, because any loss is surely the fault of their opponent's OP units.

 ross-128 wrote:
Well, based on how they've been talking the answer is apparently "all of them."

Though I'm sure it's partly because they don't even know what all is in the codex, or how any of it works. They just want to whine about whatever they've lost to recently, because any loss is surely the fault of their opponent's OP units.

Actually more than one person has outright said that the entire codex is buffed. Funny enough at least one of them has shut up since then.

And I still remember that one thread made by an enraged Marine player in 7th edition where he called Daemons OP and the Warp storm a straight upgrade because his gladius lost to it.

 Kanluwen wrote:

They absolutely do not.
Special Weapon Squads are 6 models(3 with Lasguns, 3 with Specials).
Heavy Weapon Squads are 3 models, consisting of 2W each.
Ratlings are 5 models with an optional 5 more.
Tempestus Command Squads got a nerf to their points for Plasma Guns(anything BS3+ pays more now) and are 4 models in total.

If a Heavy Weapon Squad loses a model, then you're going to lose a model(meaning 2W) for Summary Execution--meaning you basically wipe out the whole squad.
Special Weapon Squads are basically going to be dead if you lose anyone in most circumstances. Same goes for Tempestus Command Squads.
And if you're referring to Heavy Weapon Teams or Special Weapon operators in Infantry Squads--you'd still be wrong, since Infantry Squads are 10 models.

Read again those profiles and understand why you are wrong.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Manticores have it pretty easy not being destroyed - they can deploy completely out of line of site if LOS blocking is available and have a lot of wounds. At the very least they can start the game in cover as far away from the enemy as possible. They are cheap enough to be spammed to and do way to much damage for their cost to a huge variety of targets.

See again how it's not my problem if you opt to play on crummy tables. If you know someone is playing Manticores, it's on you to make a stink regarding the terrain setup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cothonian wrote:
Silly question: When FAQs come out, do newly printed versions of the codex get those FAQ clarifications added in?

I'm having trouble keeping track of changes.

Not usually. The digital versions do, I think.

You play without LoS blocking terrein?

Thanks for telling us, now we can disregard your opinions entirely.

Spoletta wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

They absolutely do not.
Special Weapon Squads are 6 models(3 with Lasguns, 3 with Specials).
Heavy Weapon Squads are 3 models, consisting of 2W each.
Ratlings are 5 models with an optional 5 more.
Tempestus Command Squads got a nerf to their points for Plasma Guns(anything BS3+ pays more now) and are 4 models in total.

If a Heavy Weapon Squad loses a model, then you're going to lose a model(meaning 2W) for Summary Execution--meaning you basically wipe out the whole squad.
Special Weapon Squads are basically going to be dead if you lose anyone in most circumstances. Same goes for Tempestus Command Squads.
And if you're referring to Heavy Weapon Teams or Special Weapon operators in Infantry Squads--you'd still be wrong, since Infantry Squads are 10 models.

Read again those profiles and understand why you are wrong.

I think the main reason people take issue with that is most of those options are right around the same price as the commissar.

E.G. if you have a HWS, you can either be a good bit of the way towards a second HWS, or you can spend a load of points to ensure the first HWS stays around a bit longer, maybe possibly, not sure.

EDIT: Oh wait no, never mind. The +1 Leadership (8 from 7) will save one model, but if it is failed by 1 you lose one EXTRA model, so the Commissar is at best breaking even on a HWTs.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Manticores have it pretty easy not being destroyed - they can deploy completely out of line of site if LOS blocking is available and have a lot of wounds. At the very least they can start the game in cover as far away from the enemy as possible. They are cheap enough to be spammed to and do way to much damage for their cost to a huge variety of targets.

See again how it's not my problem if you opt to play on crummy tables. If you know someone is playing Manticores, it's on you to make a stink regarding the terrain setup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cothonian wrote:
Silly question: When FAQs come out, do newly printed versions of the codex get those FAQ clarifications added in?

I'm having trouble keeping track of changes.

Not usually. The digital versions do, I think.

Every board should have at least 2 large LOS blocking elements on it. And choice of deployment is decided by a roll off. In a tournament the terrain is preset too. So I don't see your point. LOS blocking is part of the game. Also you don't see anyone complaining about Whirlwinds do you?

You know what's really OP?

Whirlwinds. They ignore LOS and are immune to shooting because of it!

They suck. GW please nerf them or find a way to make them not-immortal.

I mean geeze, they can even fire for an UNLIMITED NUMBER OF TURNS. That's more OP even than the MANTICORE. Can you imagine a game without an end? They can do infinite wounds from their immortal hidey-hole! NERRFFFFF

Ordana wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Manticores have it pretty easy not being destroyed - they can deploy completely out of line of site if LOS blocking is available and have a lot of wounds. At the very least they can start the game in cover as far away from the enemy as possible. They are cheap enough to be spammed to and do way to much damage for their cost to a huge variety of targets.

See again how it's not my problem if you opt to play on crummy tables. If you know someone is playing Manticores, it's on you to make a stink regarding the terrain setup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cothonian wrote:
Silly question: When FAQs come out, do newly printed versions of the codex get those FAQ clarifications added in?

I'm having trouble keeping track of changes.

Not usually. The digital versions do, I think.

You play without LoS blocking terrein?

Thanks for telling us, now we can disregard your opinions entirely.

Sorry, where did I say "I play without LoS blocking terrain"?

I said it's not my problem if you choose to play on crummy tables. Ideally, tables will have LoS blocking terrain scattered evenly across the board not just with one side having all the LoS blocking terrain on their side so they can lob rockets unopposed.

Cant understand the salt n rage over this FAQ. Having just read it, it seems decent, fairly well thought out and relevant.
I mean compared to not getting FAQs for like.....years, this is very welcomed and long may timely/fair updates continue.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
You know what's really OP?

Whirlwinds. They ignore LOS and are immune to shooting because of it!

They suck. GW please nerf them or find a way to make them not-immortal.

I mean geeze, they can even fire for an UNLIMITED NUMBER OF TURNS. That's more OP even than the MANTICORE.

Very funny.

2d3 Str7 ap-1 D2 48" indirect fire (unaffected by chapter tactics)
vs
2d6 (with a single reroll unless catachan) str 10 ap-2 d3 damage 120" indirect fire. for 30 more points. (can only fire 4 times? holy crap - essentially unlimited shooting)

Spoletta wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

They absolutely do not.
Special Weapon Squads are 6 models(3 with Lasguns, 3 with Specials).
Heavy Weapon Squads are 3 models, consisting of 2W each.
Ratlings are 5 models with an optional 5 more.
Tempestus Command Squads got a nerf to their points for Plasma Guns(anything BS3+ pays more now) and are 4 models in total.

If a Heavy Weapon Squad loses a model, then you're going to lose a model(meaning 2W) for Summary Execution--meaning you basically wipe out the whole squad.
Special Weapon Squads are basically going to be dead if you lose anyone in most circumstances. Same goes for Tempestus Command Squads.
And if you're referring to Heavy Weapon Teams or Special Weapon operators in Infantry Squads--you'd still be wrong, since Infantry Squads are 10 models.

Read again those profiles and understand why you are wrong.

Read again those squad sizes and understand why you should leave this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ratius wrote:
Cant understand the salt n rage over this FAQ. Having just read it, it seems decent, fairly well thought out and relevant.
I mean compared to not getting FAQs for like.....years, this is very welcomed and long may timely/fair updates continue.

Because it completely removes Commissars as anything other than Conscript babysitters and even then you're better off just not taking a Commissar and using the Stratagem to ignore Morale.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ordana wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Manticores have it pretty easy not being destroyed - they can deploy completely out of line of site if LOS blocking is available and have a lot of wounds. At the very least they can start the game in cover as far away from the enemy as possible. They are cheap enough to be spammed to and do way to much damage for their cost to a huge variety of targets.

See again how it's not my problem if you opt to play on crummy tables. If you know someone is playing Manticores, it's on you to make a stink regarding the terrain setup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cothonian wrote:
Silly question: When FAQs come out, do newly printed versions of the codex get those FAQ clarifications added in?

I'm having trouble keeping track of changes.

Not usually. The digital versions do, I think.

You play without LoS blocking terrein?

Thanks for telling us, now we can disregard your opinions entirely.

Sorry, where did I say "I play without LoS blocking terrain"?

I said it's not my problem if you choose to play on crummy tables. Ideally, tables will have LoS blocking terrain scattered evenly across the board not just with one side having all the LoS blocking terrain on their side so they can lob rockets unopposed.

I know what you are saying but it's not unrealistic for any deployment zone to be able to hide a few vehicals for a few turns - it's expected.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Man, I remember mentioning that manticores are a problem in a conscript thread and I was told not to talk about Manticores.

Now, can I talk about manticores? That they've become the target instead of Conscripts?

Also, just so I can prepare in advance, would the marine players kindly tell me ahead of time what the next IG unit on the hit-list is so I can prep for it to be nerfed as well?

Well, manticores are far more efficient than all other tank and artillery units. This is, without a doubt, a problem.

However, I do not believe that Manticores are overpowered, I believe that the rest of the artillery and tank units are overpriced. Especially the Leman Russes, who should be at best equal to if not cheaper than Manticores in their stock state.



What really strikes me about the "issue" is that Space Marine players seem to lack understanding of basic priority targeting. For sure, if you dump bullets into conscripts you're going to lose, but if you crippled their artillery then it's just mop-up from there, battleshock immunity or not.

I don't think the Conscript nerf is a big deal. If anything, I guess, it makes them less attractive to having allied in to other Imperial armies, which is a good thing. Battleshock doesn't happen until after the Fight phase, so they still deny Bezerkers and Hormagaunts their thing, which is really what they need to do. I don't like it because it's the effective removal of a fairly fun and thematic effect that strongly characterizes my mental image of an army I play in concession to what I generally see as deliberate bad-ness.

I think, scratch, I know, that the problem with Conscripts comes from the conception that what is "fluffy" must not be "good" and vice versa.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I know what you are saying but it's not unrealistic for any deployment zone to be able to hide a few vehicals for a few turns - it's expected.

By that same vein, it's not unexpected to be able to maneuver/deploy longer ranged AT weapons for shots against those vehicles.
It's also worth noting that only Militarum Tempestus have access to the "Intercept" Stratagem in the Guard book--which means they need to have their own Detachment in order to utilize it.

When is the last time you saw a Whirlwind? 2nd edition?

In any case though I agree this Commissar nerf was too much. It makes the model pretty worthless even assuming its meant to be an optional ability (otherwise it does precisely nothing).

This change was absolutely necessary.

An unkillable wall of morale immune bodies is simply not fun to play against in any setting, competitive or casual.

Tyel wrote:
When is the last time you saw a Whirlwind? 2nd edition?

In any case though I agree this Commissar nerf was too much. It makes the model pretty worthless even assuming its meant to be an optional ability (otherwise it does precisely nothing).

Last edition?

I saw tons of them with the Suppression formation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
This change was absolutely necessary.

An unkillable wall of morale immune bodies is simply not fun to play against in any setting, competitive or casual.

An unkillable wall of morale immune bodies that just needed to have the Commissars killed.

 Kanluwen wrote:

[...]
4 point Termagant can be armed with any of the following:
Fleshborer(0 points and 12" range), Spinefists(0 points and 12" range), or Spike Rifle(0 points and 18" range).
A Devourer is 4 points extra and 18" range.

Venomthropes were brought up as you brought up that there is a "pretty big effing difference"(lol 1 point of armor and 6" of range) between GEQ and Termagants.[...]

Problem with Spike Rifles: There are no sprues for it since the old tin models from around 1996. Granted, there was a White Dwarf conversion proposal once, but you still have to build them your own.

And Devourers for 8 ppm with T3 and 6+ save isnt that much of enduring Firepower as it might seem either.

Spinefists having one S3 Shot per A profile at 12" isnt that superior to a S4 shot at 12" from Fleshborers, when you can only give it to models with A1 for (0) Points.

If your opponent is semi observant, you have to bring lots of synapse creatures or your army will crumble fast.

Edit:
For me, its often hard enough to chew through the screens, before I got shot of the board against AM/IG. So the change to commissars just suits me well.

 DaBraken wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

[...]
4 point Termagant can be armed with any of the following:
Fleshborer(0 points and 12" range), Spinefists(0 points and 12" range), or Spike Rifle(0 points and 18" range).
A Devourer is 4 points extra and 18" range.

Venomthropes were brought up as you brought up that there is a "pretty big effing difference"(lol 1 point of armor and 6" of range) between GEQ and Termagants.[...]

Problem with Spike Rifles: There are no sprues for it since the old tin models from around 1996. Granted, there was a White Dwarf conversion proposal once, but you still have to build them your own.

Or just say "These are Spike Rifles" and be consistent about it.

And Devourers for 8 ppm with T3 and 6+ save isnt that much of enduring Firepower as it might seem either.

You'll note that I did say earlier that if someone wants to argue that Devourers are overpriced, I'd be down with that. They do seem to be overpriced.

Spinefists having one S3 Shot per A profile at 12" isnt that superior to a S4 shot at 12" from Fleshborers, when you can only give it to models with A1 for (0) Points.

If your opponent is semi observant, you have to bring lots of synapse creatures or your army will crumble fast.

I feel like this is a bit of a copout. There are more Synapse units than there are units with "Summary Execution".

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
They've somehow managed to convince themselves that every guard model ever is OP, with the possible exception of the plasma cannon sentinel (firing at ravenguard, after moving). They truly will never be satisfied.

They can be satisfied, when their scouts have AP-3 and 5 attacks, Marines can tank 3 lascannon shots per turn, Terminators can dash across the board and murder 30 models each, all of their weapons become sniper assault weapons, and each of their HQ choices grant rerolls to every single dice roll they have.

Then they will start complaining the Captain is worthless...because the Chaplain and Librarian does his job and other things, which clearly means Marines need to be buffed again.

Actually I'm also speaking for those that play Necrons and AdMech. Ball is in your court now.

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nah. the solution is that 3-4 point back feild camper models should not ignore leadership.

So what you really want is for Commissars to be removed altogether.

Got it.

Ignore-morale mechanics should be eliminated from the game barring special cases and units, and those should be costed appropiately. Morale is the weakness of the Horde Armies. They should have ways to "protect" them from Morale, but all those should be balanced and have weakness and counter-play. And no, Commisars didn't had Counter-play.

When you have whole armies like Night Lords that all of their "flavour" is working with morale, having a so easy way to ignore morale all together (And for the Horde Armies, the ones that should suffer the most from morale) is bad gameplay design.

EDIT. Scions should be cheaper and have their deep-strike hability has a point-cost extra like Primaris Reivers. Theres no reason to put them on to Tauroxes Primes.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Tyel wrote:
When is the last time you saw a Whirlwind? 2nd edition?

In any case though I agree this Commissar nerf was too much. It makes the model pretty worthless even assuming its meant to be an optional ability (otherwise it does precisely nothing).

Last edition?

I saw tons of them with the Suppression formation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
This change was absolutely necessary.

An unkillable wall of morale immune bodies is simply not fun to play against in any setting, competitive or casual.

An unkillable wall of morale immune bodies that just needed to have the Commissars killed.

Mostly it was because it was one of the cheaper auxiliary options for the Gladius but yes I suppose you're right on that end.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nah. the solution is that 3-4 point back feild camper models should not ignore leadership.

So what you really want is for Commissars to be removed altogether.

Got it.

Ignore-morale mechanics should be eliminated from the game barring special cases and units, and those should be costed appropiately. Morale is the weakness of the Horde Armies. They should have ways to "protect" them from Morale, but all those should be balanced and have weakness and counter-play. And no, Commisars didn't had Counter-play.

When you have whole armies like Night Lords that all of their "flavour" is working with morale, having a so easy way to ignore morale all together (And for the Horde Armies, the ones that should suffer the most from morale) is bad gameplay design.

Poor poor units that paid for Fear last edition...

The thing is Commissars would be a good choice if they built in good counterplay, like only allowing them to affect a certain number of units or if we had better ways to snipe characters.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

They absolutely do not.
Special Weapon Squads are 6 models(3 with Lasguns, 3 with Specials).
Heavy Weapon Squads are 3 models, consisting of 2W each.
Ratlings are 5 models with an optional 5 more.
Tempestus Command Squads got a nerf to their points for Plasma Guns(anything BS3+ pays more now) and are 4 models in total.

If a Heavy Weapon Squad loses a model, then you're going to lose a model(meaning 2W) for Summary Execution--meaning you basically wipe out the whole squad.
Special Weapon Squads are basically going to be dead if you lose anyone in most circumstances. Same goes for Tempestus Command Squads.
And if you're referring to Heavy Weapon Teams or Special Weapon operators in Infantry Squads--you'd still be wrong, since Infantry Squads are 10 models.

Read again those profiles and understand why you are wrong.

I think the main reason people take issue with that is most of those options are right around the same price as the commissar.

E.G. if you have a HWS, you can either be a good bit of the way towards a second HWS, or you can spend a load of points to ensure the first HWS stays around a bit longer, maybe possibly, not sure.

EDIT: Oh wait no, never mind. The +1 Leadership (8 from 7) will save one model, but if it is failed by 1 you lose one EXTRA model, so the Commissar is at best breaking even on a HWTs.

All units i listed have ld 6 (ratlings 5). If you are not using a trait which gives +1 ld (which doesn't affect ratlings) then the commissar makes them immune to morale in the small numbers they are usually fielded, while usually losing 2 models on an hwt gives you good chances of losing the third one, losing the 3 cheap guys of a SWT means you are losing a lot of value in running weapons and don't get me started on ratlings where one dies and up to 2 can run.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
The thing is Commissars would be a good choice if they built in good counterplay, like only allowing them to affect a certain number of units or if we had better ways to snipe characters.

If every army had access to some way of sniping characters in a tactical, meaningfull gameplay-way, yes. But it wasn't the case.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Read again those squad sizes and understand why you should leave this thread.

Really, discussing with you is an exercise in frustration.

 Galas wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
The thing is Commissars would be a good choice if they built in good counterplay, like only allowing them to affect a certain number of units or if we had better ways to snipe characters.

If every army had access to some way of sniping characters in a tactical, meaningfull gameplay-way, yes. But it wasn't the case.

I feel like the sniper problem might be similar to the flyer problem of early 6th, as we'll slowly have this problem solved as the edition goes on and we get new releases (like actual new releases, not catchup-codexes). At least that's what I hope.