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 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It'd be neat if there were actual TO&Es you had to follow for the Guard, rather than a 'do what you want'.

I know most regiments have their own internal structure, but for units without the <REGIMENT> Keyword, there are definitely restrictions put on by the Departmento Munitorum.

Like, write up some fluff about how there are 'Company' Commissars and 'Lord' Commissars, and how the Lord Commissars are 1/regiment and 'company' Commissars are 1/company. In this case, it would be 1/detachment as a rules manifestation. This is assuming that a Detachment represents a Company, which seems to be the motif GW is going with.

I miss the old 0-1 and 1+ restriction. It cut down on a lot of the spam.

eh, with detachments now a thing, thats easily worked around, and they havent released a book with such restrictions in places in over a decade and 4 editions now, it would run counter to the design philosophy theyve been pushing of "take whatever you want in whatever quantities you want!"

Martel732 wrote:
I'm gonna guess that if dark reapers get shot and killed, the player cares. I can kill dozens and dozens of IG infantry a turn and just keep falling further and further behind.

IG players just don't understand how powerful freedom of not giving a feth about any given squad truly is.

"Oh boy, your 250 pt assault unit just killed 40 pts of dudes! Whatever shall I do? I know, I'll shoot your 250 pts off the table with a 1/3 of my remaining list."

I hate playing elite armies for that reason.

I like being able to throw away units because I can. It's a powerful ability. However, elite armies have their strength, namely that units have fewer weaknesses and more strengths each, making them less vulnerable to precision, calculated strikes, which they in turn deal out because their specialist options are significantly better at their specialty and not as weak at their weak suit than horde armies.


I can lose my conscripts, I can't lose my manticores. If you lose your devastators, the transport for your tactical squad can still make up the weight, and the tactical squad's embedded heavy weapon can also pick up the slack. Conscripts cannot pick up the slack for lost manticores, and manticores cannot pick up the slack for lost conscripts.



The Imperial Guard really is the hammer and the Space Marines really are the sword.

 Kanluwen wrote:

And about Dark Reapers, again, Kanluwen, you are comparing a specific and single unit type fo a guy that could make ALL of the Imperial Guard infantry INMUNE to a CORE RULE of the game. THATS bad gameplay design.
Sisters of Silence as an "anti-psyker" unit are good. A full army inmune to psychic power isn't, be it for special -army rules or for the hability to spamm characters that are capable of that.

I'm using one unit that I know of which has that specific rule as an example. Also--Sisters of Silence are effectively a full army that can be immune to Psychic Powers.

I find it astonishing how people are so upset by this mechanic yet nobody seems to have batted an eye at Bloodsecrators(or many other Standard Bearers) in Age of Sigmar being able to do the same thing for masses of Bloodreavers/blocks of infantry.

Because in Age of Sigmars you can snipe characters as much as you want.

If every army had Snipers in w40k and those where actually usefull, nobody will have problems with Commisars.

And yes, SoS as their own army just don't work. Just like Grey Knights having buffs agaisn't Daemons of Chaos is bad game-design (We discussed that in other thread, about GK)

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
And like I said, you could also have maneuvered to get at the Commissars or launched assaults to get at them.

Both are things that the Night Lords were known for.

... but lack rules for. Chaos has no snipers, there are rules around shooting, deep strike and assault that make it very hard to target a Commissar.

Chaos has snipers. There is no excuse now against Forge World units given that it's cheaper to buy the books off of iTunes/iBooks than it is to buy them from FW themselves. They have access to Marauders in the Renegades & Heretics list--which also gives Chaos access to many of the same units people are complaining about from Guard.

There is nothing for Assault that makes Commissars hard to target. They just have to be able to charge the unit. Shooting, as mentioned, can be maneuvered to make it happen. Deep Strike is a valid point.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It'd be neat if there were actual TO&Es you had to follow for the Guard, rather than a 'do what you want'.

I know most regiments have their own internal structure, but for units without the <REGIMENT> Keyword, there are definitely restrictions put on by the Departmento Munitorum.

Like, write up some fluff about how there are 'Company' Commissars and 'Lord' Commissars, and how the Lord Commissars are 1/regiment and 'company' Commissars are 1/company. In this case, it would be 1/detachment as a rules manifestation. This is assuming that a Detachment represents a Company, which seems to be the motif GW is going with.

I miss the old 0-1 and 1+ restriction. It cut down on a lot of the spam.

eh, with detachments now a thing, thats easily worked around, and they havent released a book with such restrictions in places in over a decade and 4 editions now, it would run counter to the design philosophy theyve been pushing of "take whatever you want in whatever quantities you want!"

I don't know if the 0-1 restriction ever coincided with the "free detachments" thing so I don't know if that would work on a per-detachment or per-army thing.

Per-detachment would still probably work though, as long as you forbid them from appearing in auxillary detachments. That way if you wanted, say, 3 Death Company Squads (one of the ones with the 0-1 restriction before it was removed) you basically needed to field 3 BA detachments.

 Galas wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

And about Dark Reapers, again, Kanluwen, you are comparing a specific and single unit type fo a guy that could make ALL of the Imperial Guard infantry INMUNE to a CORE RULE of the game. THATS bad gameplay design.
Sisters of Silence as an "anti-psyker" unit are good. A full army inmune to psychic power isn't, be it for special -army rules or for the hability to spamm characters that are capable of that.

I'm using one unit that I know of which has that specific rule as an example. Also--Sisters of Silence are effectively a full army that can be immune to Psychic Powers.

I find it astonishing how people are so upset by this mechanic yet nobody seems to have batted an eye at Bloodsecrators(or many other Standard Bearers) in Age of Sigmar being able to do the same thing for masses of Bloodreavers/blocks of infantry.

Because in Age of Sigmars you can snipe characters as much as you want.

If every army had Snipers in w40k and those where actually usefull, nobody will have problems with Commisars.

Every army barring Orks has snipers or a sniper equivalent.

Snipers not being useful is a different story entirely. Additionally, the range on those banners is far superior to the measly 6" of a Commissar.

I play Bloodbound hordes in Age of Sigmar. Believe me, when all the shooting troops of your enemy can shoot at your "morale-inmunity" banners as much as they want, they aren't a problem.

Thats why I prefer the W40K Character rules. Now we only need snipers to be usefull ,and I think all be good.

Martel732 wrote:
Maneuver against most IG lists is physically impossible. This FAQ is not going to change that. There are no DS holes until after the opponent has committed all DSers.

I love how you immediately assume that maneuver = Deep Strike.

So what, you can't move up along a flank and take shots at the Commissar when you move past the Conscript conga line?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm gonna guess that if dark reapers get shot and killed, the player cares. I can kill dozens and dozens of IG infantry a turn and just keep falling further and further behind.

IG players just don't understand how powerful freedom of not giving a feth about any given squad truly is.

"Oh boy, your 250 pt assault unit just killed 40 pts of dudes! Whatever shall I do? I know, I'll shoot your 250 pts off the table with a 1/3 of my remaining list."

I hate playing elite armies for that reason.

I like being able to throw away units because I can. It's a powerful ability. However, elite armies have their strength, namely that units have fewer weaknesses and more strengths each, making them less vulnerable to precision, calculated strikes, which they in turn deal out because their specialist options are significantly better at their specialty and not as weak at their weak suit than horde armies.


I can lose my conscripts, I can't lose my manticores. If you lose your devastators, the transport for your tactical squad can still make up the weight, and the tactical squad's embedded heavy weapon can also pick up the slack. Conscripts cannot pick up the slack for lost manticores, and manticores cannot pick up the slack for lost conscripts.

Tac marines really can't pick up anything for marine heavy support. That's why razorback spamming is the thing to do.

Yeah the per-detachment 0-1 is what I had in mind for Basic Commissars and then 0-1 per Regiment keyword for Lord Commissars.

With that theory, you could run a Cadian Battalion with a Lord Commissar (for that Cadian regiment) and a regular Commissar (for that Cadian company).

Then, you could run a Tallarn Spearhead detachment with a Lord Commissar (or Commissar Tank Commander for fluff!) for that Tallarn regiment, and a Commissar / Commissar Regular Tank as the 'company' Commissar for that Tallarn tank company.

Then you could run a Cadian Vanguard detachment with Veterans, but since this Cadian regiment already brought their regimental Lord Commissar, they would only get 0-1 regular Commissars for this company.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maneuver against most IG lists is physically impossible. This FAQ is not going to change that. There are no DS holes until after the opponent has committed all DSers.

I love how you immediately assume that maneuver = Deep Strike.

So what, you can't move up along a flank and take shots at the Commissar when you move past the Conscript conga line?

Because I can't physically move past the conscript line because there are more units physically barring it from being a legal move. My IG opponents aren't morons. They know if they hold the formation for 2-3 turns, there will be no marines left. They are filling entire deployment zones for this exact purpose.

Edit: Do you really let power armor units BEHIND your conscript lines? Come on, man.

 Galas wrote:
I play Bloodbound hordes in Age of Sigmar. Believe me, when all the shooting troops of your enemy can shoot at your "morale-inminity" banners as much as they want, they aren't a problem.

I don't believe you at all.

I play Wanderers in AoS and the longest range you see in AoS now tends to be around 22".
Bloodsecrators have an 18" range when opening the Portal of Skulls. That range is doubled if they manage to get into a Skull Keep.

There's a 4" difference between the one of if not the longest ranged unit in AoS(Waywatcher, a hero itself) and the Bloodsecrator's ability. The Portal, additionally, does not require LOS to give its effect so...

Deep Strike is the opposite of good maneuver-based gameplay.

It functionally ignores terrain and movement and any obstacles or advantages that may present.



Anyway, try outflanking the cover with Razorbacks. It works with Immolators, which have half the range, so it ought to work with Razorbacks.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maneuver against most IG lists is physically impossible. This FAQ is not going to change that. There are no DS holes until after the opponent has committed all DSers.

I love how you immediately assume that maneuver = Deep Strike.

So what, you can't move up along a flank and take shots at the Commissar when you move past the Conscript conga line?

Because I can't physically move past the conscript line because there are more units physically barring it from being a legal move. My IG opponents aren't morons. They know if they hold the formation for 2-3 turns, there will be no marines left. They are filling entire deployment zones for this exact purpose.

This actually makes me wonder about the wisdom of removing tank shock.

The way I see Marines dealing with this problem is loading up a Land Raider with Terminators (and a Dreadnought, if we're going by the 2nd edition fluff) and pinning the conscripts in place with a charge or something down the line while said Land Raider drives 'through' the line of conscripts and deposits its carried assets behind the line.

With the removal of tank-shock, this is no longer possible, and represents another straight Conscript buff that happened in the core rules!

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It'd be neat if there were actual TO&Es you had to follow for the Guard, rather than a 'do what you want'.

I know most regiments have their own internal structure, but for units without the <REGIMENT> Keyword, there are definitely restrictions put on by the Departmento Munitorum.

Like, write up some fluff about how there are 'Company' Commissars and 'Lord' Commissars, and how the Lord Commissars are 1/regiment and 'company' Commissars are 1/company. In this case, it would be 1/detachment as a rules manifestation. This is assuming that a Detachment represents a Company, which seems to be the motif GW is going with.

I miss the old 0-1 and 1+ restriction. It cut down on a lot of the spam.

I agree, though it was kinda dumb sometimes, e.g. Obliterators. The number of obliterators in a warband is absolutely something a Chaos Lord could control and either encourage or discourage.

It was more for balance, since Necron Armies could definitely field more than 10 Pariahs per army, but they were pretty dang powerful if you could have more than one unit; they were one of those units that were fragile as hell for their points, but only needed one guy to reach combat to make back the entire squad's points. Having multiple units (and thus multiple targets) would make them significantly more survivable and likely to get at least one guy into the enemy gunline.

I laugh at the notion of Pariahs being powerful. Did you even PLAY 4th edition?

For the record, deepstriking was a very rare thing once upon a time; chaos was notable because they had such easy access to deepstrike at a time when most people only had one or two expensive units.

Part of the reason I miss 3rd edition is because it was a far simpler time, where simply having deepstrike, infiltrate or scout on one unit could make you a special snowflake army.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maneuver against most IG lists is physically impossible. This FAQ is not going to change that. There are no DS holes until after the opponent has committed all DSers.

I love how you immediately assume that maneuver = Deep Strike.

So what, you can't move up along a flank and take shots at the Commissar when you move past the Conscript conga line?

Because I can't physically move past the conscript line because there are more units physically barring it from being a legal move. My IG opponents aren't morons. They know if they hold the formation for 2-3 turns, there will be no marines left. They are filling entire deployment zones for this exact purpose.

If they're packed in so heavily then they are ripe for being charged and engaged in CC.

It's amazing how the BA player doesn't seem to want to get into CC

No, they aren't. Do you even play 8th? They get charged, lose nothing important, then leave CC for free, and then beta strike you off the table with undercosted tanks that I also can't physically assault. Rinse and repeat for hundreds of cheap models.

They actually spread out to do this, sacrificing infantry firepower that they don't need vs marines.

Martel732 wrote:
No, they aren't. Do you even play 8th? They get charged, lose nothing important, then leave CC for free, and then beta strike you off the table. Rinse and repeat for hundreds of cheap models.

They leave CC, they don't get to "beta strike you off the table" unless they receive an Order--which Conscripts now do on a 50/50 shot.

If they don't get to--charge again.
Rinse and repeat, keeping your models in combat.

They actually spread out to do this, sacrificing infantry firepower that they don't need vs marines.

Then start piling in better or declaring Charges against more than one unit at a time.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, they aren't. Do you even play 8th? They get charged, lose nothing important, then leave CC for free, and then beta strike you off the table. Rinse and repeat for hundreds of cheap models.

They leave CC, they don't get to "beta strike you off the table" unless they receive an Order--which Conscripts now do on a 50/50 shot.

If they don't get to--charge again.
Rinse and repeat, keeping your models in combat.

To be fair, even if the conscripts can't beta strike, the artillery, superheavies, and leman russ tanks can. That's martel's problem: regardless of what he does in melee, the big guns will always always always shoot him. I can see that being a problem.

I mean the rest of the list. The horde of undercosted artillery and tanks. The ones I CAN'T PHYSICALLY ASSAULT. The actual infantry doesn't have to do anything. It doesn't even have to be armed for it to do its job.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, they aren't. Do you even play 8th? They get charged, lose nothing important, then leave CC for free, and then beta strike you off the table. Rinse and repeat for hundreds of cheap models.

They leave CC, they don't get to "beta strike you off the table" unless they receive an Order--which Conscripts now do on a 50/50 shot.

If they don't get to--charge again.
Rinse and repeat, keeping your models in combat.

It's not the conscripts that beta strike you. They are there as an impassable wall that protects everything else which delivers the beta strike, after the conscripts freely leave combat.

You could take the guns off of conscripts and with morale immunity they'd still be auto-take.

Martel732 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm gonna guess that if dark reapers get shot and killed, the player cares. I can kill dozens and dozens of IG infantry a turn and just keep falling further and further behind.

IG players just don't understand how powerful freedom of not giving a feth about any given squad truly is.

"Oh boy, your 250 pt assault unit just killed 40 pts of dudes! Whatever shall I do? I know, I'll shoot your 250 pts off the table with a 1/3 of my remaining list."

I hate playing elite armies for that reason.

I like being able to throw away units because I can. It's a powerful ability. However, elite armies have their strength, namely that units have fewer weaknesses and more strengths each, making them less vulnerable to precision, calculated strikes, which they in turn deal out because their specialist options are significantly better at their specialty and not as weak at their weak suit than horde armies.


I can lose my conscripts, I can't lose my manticores. If you lose your devastators, the transport for your tactical squad can still make up the weight, and the tactical squad's embedded heavy weapon can also pick up the slack. Conscripts cannot pick up the slack for lost manticores, and manticores cannot pick up the slack for lost conscripts.

Tac marines really can't pick up anything for marine heavy support. That's why razorback spamming is the thing to do.

Same damn smell. And yes, tacticals can, there was a discussion about embedded lascannons a while ago. Or you can have a sternguard squad full of plasma/melta. Whatever, you get the idea, Marines are flexible, use it to your advantage. If you're not using it, you're losing a volume-of-firepower war, because volume of fire is something you don't have as marines.



I really, really hate 1/army mechanics. 1/detachment mechanics are less bad, but still bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, they aren't. Do you even play 8th? They get charged, lose nothing important, then leave CC for free, and then beta strike you off the table. Rinse and repeat for hundreds of cheap models.

They leave CC, they don't get to "beta strike you off the table" unless they receive an Order--which Conscripts now do on a 50/50 shot.

If they don't get to--charge again.
Rinse and repeat, keeping your models in combat.

To be fair, even if the conscripts can't beta strike, the artillery, superheavies, and leman russ tanks can. That's martel's problem: regardless of what he does in melee, the big guns will always always always shoot him. I can see that being a problem.

I don't. That's how it works.

Find a new way to get around it.

Are they, though? The only choice to a volume of fire war is trying to assault. Which we are also discussing the problem with that. Only lascannons/missiles/autocannons can reach the problem units. Plasma/melta wont' be able to hit IG tanks, or even CSM tanks/havocs.

"Find a new way to get around it."

Which is what?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, they aren't. Do you even play 8th? They get charged, lose nothing important, then leave CC for free, and then beta strike you off the table. Rinse and repeat for hundreds of cheap models.

They leave CC, they don't get to "beta strike you off the table" unless they receive an Order--which Conscripts now do on a 50/50 shot.

If they don't get to--charge again.
Rinse and repeat, keeping your models in combat.

To be fair, even if the conscripts can't beta strike, the artillery, superheavies, and leman russ tanks can. That's martel's problem: regardless of what he does in melee, the big guns will always always always shoot him. I can see that being a problem.

It's not that big of a problem unless you're an idiot and don't attempt to make it difficult for the enemy units to fall back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Are they, though? The only choice to a volume of fire war is trying to assault. Which we are also discussing the problem with that. Only lascannons/missiles/autocannons can reach the problem units. Plasma/melta wont' be able to hit IG tanks, or even CSM tanks/havocs.

"Find a new way to get around it."

Which is what?

Use your Pile In/Consolidates to prevent the enemy from being able to move around you?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I play Bloodbound hordes in Age of Sigmar. Believe me, when all the shooting troops of your enemy can shoot at your "morale-inminity" banners as much as they want, they aren't a problem.

I don't believe you at all.

I play Wanderers in AoS and the longest range you see in AoS now tends to be around 22".
Bloodsecrators have an 18" range when opening the Portal of Skulls. That range is doubled if they manage to get into a Skull Keep.

There's a 4" difference between the one of if not the longest ranged unit in AoS(Waywatcher, a hero itself) and the Bloodsecrator's ability. The Portal, additionally, does not require LOS to give its effect so...

Who the hell uses Skull Keeps?
But you are right, Weapon Ranges in AoS are much smaller than in Warhammer 40k.
But the fact that the aura is 18" doesn't means it creates a inmunity circle around the Bloodsecrator, BLoodreavers are still 7ppm. Any fast-moving shooting unit, deepstriking unit, etc... can kill them, and it doesn't matter that you have 50 bloodreavers between them and the Bloodsecrator, they can freely shoot at him.

But this is Offtopic, in resume: AoS and W40K are different games, is useless to compare them.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, they aren't. Do you even play 8th? They get charged, lose nothing important, then leave CC for free, and then beta strike you off the table. Rinse and repeat for hundreds of cheap models.

They leave CC, they don't get to "beta strike you off the table" unless they receive an Order--which Conscripts now do on a 50/50 shot.

If they don't get to--charge again.
Rinse and repeat, keeping your models in combat.

To be fair, even if the conscripts can't beta strike, the artillery, superheavies, and leman russ tanks can. That's martel's problem: regardless of what he does in melee, the big guns will always always always shoot him. I can see that being a problem.

It's not that big of a problem unless you're an idiot and don't attempt to make it difficult for the enemy units to fall back.

This is true.

It's also worth noting that one's own army should have at least /some/ guns. It's not like there is no opportunity at all to reduce enemy firepower until the conscripts are gone.

That can be prevented with casualty removal tactics. Sorry if you haven't figured that out yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, they aren't. Do you even play 8th? They get charged, lose nothing important, then leave CC for free, and then beta strike you off the table. Rinse and repeat for hundreds of cheap models.

They leave CC, they don't get to "beta strike you off the table" unless they receive an Order--which Conscripts now do on a 50/50 shot.

If they don't get to--charge again.
Rinse and repeat, keeping your models in combat.

To be fair, even if the conscripts can't beta strike, the artillery, superheavies, and leman russ tanks can. That's martel's problem: regardless of what he does in melee, the big guns will always always always shoot him. I can see that being a problem.

It's not that big of a problem unless you're an idiot and don't attempt to make it difficult for the enemy units to fall back.

This is true.

It's also worth noting that one's own army should have at least /some/ guns. It's not like there is no opportunity at all to reduce enemy firepower until the conscripts are gone.

The guns they shoot off the table while the assault elements are trying to close? They have this luxury because it doesn't matter how many assault units make it across the board. They can just bog them down with cheap crap and THEN start shooting them.

The classic argument of someone with an OP army:

"it's easy to play against if you're not an idiot."

Kind of in line with the toxic dakka narrative that all marine players are stupid.

Martel732 wrote:
That can be prevented with casualty removal tactics. Sorry if you haven't figured that out yet.

I can't blame the people that play douchey lists against you anymore. I'd run tabling lists to try to drive you out of my gaming group too.