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 daedalus wrote:
Does this mean you and the rest are going to finally stop bitching?

Historical evidence shows that even if Marines are top tier, winning all the tournaments and guard are bottom tier, they will never, EVER stop bitching.

About to be a moot point, as 10 man IG squads will just die to the man. Arguably, a better buffer as less can go wrong.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
come on dude...competitive gaurd is running like 2-3 commissars in range of every blob. You can't snipe that.

Then maybe there should have been a requirement for fielding a Commissar?
We need to have an Officer in order to field a Command Squad.

Why not have the same requirement for Commissars?

To be fair - you were taking a company commander for every commissar anyways.

Which still would mean that in a Patrol or Battalion, you're only going to be able to manage 2 or 3 Commissars as part of a limited number of Elites. A Brigade could manage 5 tops.
The Elite heavy Detachment becomes nothing and Supreme Command could bring you 1 Commissar total.

It means, all of a sudden, people have to instead field Lord Commissars who take up HQ slots instead.

Not a really restriction at all though. AM feild 2x batallion or sometimes even 2x brigade with minimal wasted points. case in points AM have a unit in every force allocation that is worth spamming.

 Melissia wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Does this mean you and the rest are going to finally stop bitching?

Historical evidence shows that even if Marines are top tier, winning all the tournaments and guard are bottom tier, they will never, EVER stop bitching.

Because there was soooo many complaints about Imperial Guard in 6th and 7th...

The truth is: People will complaint about the top-armies. In 40k, in Magic, in League of Legends, in everything.

Do you see anyone complaining about Tau or Eldar now? And it was LITERALLY the end of the world (For some people) with those armies in 7th.

People will stop bitching about Imperial Guard when they become unplayable or balanced. Then some people will still complaing if they have some OP unit like Flyrants, and will ignore that the rest of the codex is totally useless.
And to be honest I find fun how people talks about "Space Marine" players when every 3 of 4 peoples meet, has at minimun one space marine army of some flavour. That makes every 40k player a Space Marine player?

Tau can do something similar to the IG, but they just aren't nearly as good at it. Yet. Firewarriors/drones are only about half as expendable as geqs, so of course it works less well.

 Galas wrote:

The truth is: People will complaint about the top-armies. In 40k, in Magic, in League of Legends, in everything.

Do you see anyone complaining about Tau or Eldar now? And it was LITERALLY the end of the world (For some people) with those armies in 7th.

I saw a hell of a lot of people winging about Necrons in 8th even though they're bottom-tier.

I haven't given them a single thought, to be honest.

Can we please pause to remember that conscript still prevent alpha-strike charges incredibly well, they extend your anti-deep strike footprint to completely negate some armies that must arrive turn 1 or be tabled, they still are a lot of bodies for very cheap that can obsec all day long until removed, and they're still effective at shooting close range by volume of dice.

Acting like conscripts won't be in your competitive list is pretty funny.

 Galas wrote:
Because there was soooo many complaints about Imperial Guard in 6th and 7th...

There were.

 vipoid wrote:

 Galas wrote:

The truth is: People will complaint about the top-armies. In 40k, in Magic, in League of Legends, in everything.

Do you see anyone complaining about Tau or Eldar now? And it was LITERALLY the end of the world (For some people) with those armies in 7th.

I saw a hell of a lot of people winging about Necrons in 8th even though they're bottom-tier.

It was very funny when we had AT THE SAME TIME two threads in 40k general discussion, one about Necrons being OP and other about Necrons being unplayable and useless
The typical hysteria of a new-edition.

 Marmatag wrote:
Can we please pause to remember that conscript still prevent alpha-strike charges incredibly well, they extend your anti-deep strike footprint to completely negate some armies that must arrive turn 1 or be tabled, they still are a lot of bodies for very cheap that can obsec all day long until removed, and they're still effective at shooting close range by volume of dice.

Acting like conscripts won't be in your competitive list is pretty funny.

If they are worried about miraculously being prevented from falling back by tiny meq units, maybe the regular squads are better.

 Marmatag wrote:
Can we please pause to remember that conscript still prevent alpha-strike charges incredibly well, they extend your anti-deep strike footprint to completely negate some armies that must arrive turn 1 or be tabled, they still are a lot of bodies for very cheap that can obsec all day long until removed, and they're still effective at shooting close range by volume of dice.

Acting like conscripts won't be in your competitive list is pretty funny.

It will be just 1 squad instead of 3-4 now. The rest will be infantry squads. Which IMO are an equally good unit.

 vipoid wrote:

 Galas wrote:

The truth is: People will complaint about the top-armies. In 40k, in Magic, in League of Legends, in everything.

Do you see anyone complaining about Tau or Eldar now? And it was LITERALLY the end of the world (For some people) with those armies in 7th.

I saw a hell of a lot of people winging about Necrons in 8th even though they're bottom-tier.

The Necron complain was less about them being OP and more of them being utterly boring to play against. Which, to be fair, was kinda true. When an army basically has a 4+ "nope" save after it's normal save, had little incentives to move, and had a relatively short range for their weapons, it ends up feeling like punching a rock till your fist bleeds because there's nothing better to do.

A lot of the Necron complaining was simply around how ineffective a lot of other troops are in the edition. And it's true, most of the troops are very ineffective.

That was also brought on by people having really different expectations of what 8th was going to be. I remember being super excited that I would be able to field land raiders! Then the reality is, land raiders still suck ass. So there's some adjusting. 8th was promised to be 1 thing, and is shaping up to be something completely different.

 Marmatag wrote:
The classic argument of someone with an OP army:

"it's easy to play against if you're not an idiot."

Kind of in line with the toxic dakka narrative that all marine players are stupid.

To be fair, I shouldn't have let Martel get under my skin.

It's important to remember though that Consolidate and Pile Ins are a thing and unless a unit has "Fly" it cannot move over/through intervening models.
There is nothing that should be preventing you from bottle-necking or making it extremely difficult if not impossible for Conscripts to get out of the Fight.

 Kanluwen wrote:

There is nothing that should be preventing you from bottle-necking or making it extremely difficult if not impossible for Conscripts to get out of the Fight.

Only... more conscripts.

 Galas wrote:

It was very funny when we had AT THE SAME TIME two threads in 40k general discussion, one about Necrons being OP and other about Necrons being unplayable and useless
The typical hysteria of a new-edition.

That was indeed amusing.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

The Necron complain was less about them being OP and more of them being utterly boring to play against. Which, to be fair, was kinda true. When an army basically has a 4+ "nope" save after it's normal save, had little incentives to move, and had a relatively short range for their weapons, it ends up feeling like punching a rock till your fist bleeds because there's nothing better to do.

Are you sure you're not thinking of 7th edition Necrons?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The classic argument of someone with an OP army:

"it's easy to play against if you're not an idiot."

Kind of in line with the toxic dakka narrative that all marine players are stupid.

To be fair, I shouldn't have let Martel get under my skin.

It's important to remember though that Consolidate and Pile Ins are a thing and unless a unit has "Fly" it cannot move over/through intervening models.
There is nothing that should be preventing you from bottle-necking or making it extremely difficult if not impossible for Conscripts to get out of the Fight.

Yeah, there is. More conscripts. They form a smooth wall the turn before they get charged, and then take all the losses off the back. Then, next turn, move something up to fill the gap and fall the conscripts back 2". It's a goddamn algorithm at this point. Good IG players don't let anything get behind them or around them. Because they know if nothing does, they win.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The classic argument of someone with an OP army:

"it's easy to play against if you're not an idiot."

Kind of in line with the toxic dakka narrative that all marine players are stupid.

To be fair, I shouldn't have let Martel get under my skin.

It's important to remember though that Consolidate and Pile Ins are a thing and unless a unit has "Fly" it cannot move over/through intervening models.
There is nothing that should be preventing you from bottle-necking or making it extremely difficult if not impossible for Conscripts to get out of the Fight.

You are not granted a consolidation if someone retreats from combat. And, when you do pile in or consolidate, it must move you closer to the nearest enemy model.

It doesn't work out in practice the way you're discussing it here.

 vipoid wrote:
[

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

The Necron complain was less about them being OP and more of them being utterly boring to play against. Which, to be fair, was kinda true. When an army basically has a 4+ "nope" save after it's normal save, had little incentives to move, and had a relatively short range for their weapons, it ends up feeling like punching a rock till your fist bleeds because there's nothing better to do.

Are you sure you're not thinking of 7th edition Necrons?

Er, I was talking about the 7th edition necrons. I've seen a grand total of 1 thread complaining about necrons being OP in 8th and that was the hilarious one that coincided with the "Necrons are weak" thread. Then Necron threads in general seem to have faded into the nether.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
come on dude...competitive gaurd is running like 2-3 commissars in range of every blob. You can't snipe that.

Then maybe there should have been a requirement for fielding a Commissar?
We need to have an Officer in order to field a Command Squad.

Why not have the same requirement for Commissars?

To be fair - you were taking a company commander for every commissar anyways.

Which still would mean that in a Patrol or Battalion, you're only going to be able to manage 2 or 3 Commissars as part of a limited number of Elites. A Brigade could manage 5 tops.
The Elite heavy Detachment becomes nothing and Supreme Command could bring you 1 Commissar total.

It means, all of a sudden, people have to instead field Lord Commissars who take up HQ slots instead.

Not a really restriction at all though. AM feild 2x batallion or sometimes even 2x brigade with minimal wasted points. case in points AM have a unit in every force allocation that is worth spamming.

Let's be 100% fair though--Guard were always going to be problematic once they removed the Platoon and Command Squad structures.

Let's be 100% fair though--Guard were always going to be problematic once they buffed T3 and 5+ armor and didn't charge for it. Fixed that for you.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The classic argument of someone with an OP army:

"it's easy to play against if you're not an idiot."

Kind of in line with the toxic dakka narrative that all marine players are stupid.

To be fair, I shouldn't have let Martel get under my skin.

It's important to remember though that Consolidate and Pile Ins are a thing and unless a unit has "Fly" it cannot move over/through intervening models.
There is nothing that should be preventing you from bottle-necking or making it extremely difficult if not impossible for Conscripts to get out of the Fight.

You are not granted a consolidation if someone retreats from combat. And, when you do pile in or consolidate, it must move you closer to the nearest enemy model.

It doesn't work out in practice the way you're discussing it here.

CONSOLIDATE is the last part of the Fight phase. I did not say that you get it because someone Fell Back.

Consolidate is you moving each model in the unit up to 3" towards the nearest enemy model.

Between Pile In and Consolidation, you're looking at 6" to play with during the Fight phase.

Yes, and if their front is still bigger than yours or even the same size, you aren't enveloping a single model. Remember that your models touching other models don't get to move ANYWHERE, as per the FAQ.

Martel732 wrote:
I mean the rest of the list. The horde of undercosted artillery and tanks. The ones I CAN'T PHYSICALLY ASSAULT. The actual infantry doesn't have to do anything. It doesn't even have to be armed for it to do its job.

This is sadly true.

Now hopefully with less conscripts walls we will see more gameplay variety.

Look at every unit debate on the forum, before long it became "Can it take out enough conscripts?". They are also the main reason why assault lists struggle right now.

That's why the dude for the GT was using bobby g asscannon party, I'm sure.

I personally think they went to far with the commissars nerf. Whoever said the commissars should blame someone and treat the die roll as 1 is probably on to the correct solution. Then they help but they don't prevent it and it's never a negative.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
[

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

The Necron complain was less about them being OP and more of them being utterly boring to play against. Which, to be fair, was kinda true. When an army basically has a 4+ "nope" save after it's normal save, had little incentives to move, and had a relatively short range for their weapons, it ends up feeling like punching a rock till your fist bleeds because there's nothing better to do.

Are you sure you're not thinking of 7th edition Necrons?

Er, I was talking about the 7th edition necrons. I've seen a grand total of 1 thread complaining about necrons being OP in 8th and that was the hilarious one that coincided with the "Necrons are weak" thread. Then Necron threads in general seem to have faded into the nether.

I've definitely seen more than 1 (though they do indeed seem to have died down) - most of the complaints were aimed at RPs.


I do agree that there was ample reason for people complaining about 7th edition necrons - if only because (as you said earlier) they were so damn boring to play against. And I say that as someone who played Necrons.

Darkagl1 wrote:
I personally think they went to far with the commissars nerf. Whoever said the commissars should blame someone and treat the die roll as 1 is probably on to the correct solution. Then they help but they don't prevent it and it's never a negative.

Actually it could still be negative . If you suffer too many losses and then roll a 1, the commissar will just take one more head

No, actually i'm fine with this version, i know that sometimes it is silly that he makes things worse, but is fluffy as hell and after all he is causing a total of 4 points of damage, so who cares. He is an extremely cheap character that buffs your leadership and sometimes prevents some guys from running. He is fine, what more do you expect for 31 points?

Well, for 40 pts, they can turn off a 250+ pt assault unit.