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Spoletta wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:
I personally think they went to far with the commissars nerf. Whoever said the commissars should blame someone and treat the die roll as 1 is probably on to the correct solution. Then they help but they don't prevent it and it's never a negative.

Actually it could still be negative . If you suffer too many losses and then roll a 1, the commissar will just take one more head

No, actually i'm fine with this version, i know that sometimes it is silly that he makes things worse, but is fluffy as hell and after all he is causing a total of 4 points of damage, so who cares. He is an extremely cheap character that buffs your leadership and sometimes prevents some guys from running. He is fine, what more do you expect for 31 points?

He can absolutely cause more than 4 pts of damage depending on the unit he is with. And I think people expect him to NOT actively harm our armies for the price (unless we are using conscripts). I know if I wanted one for fluff reasons I'd rather play 1969 points and have him do nothing - that way he is hurting me less.

Martel732 wrote:Well, for 40 pts, they can turn off a 250+ pt assault unit.

If by "turn off" you mean "get utterly annihilated by" then yes, you'd be right.

 vipoid wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
[

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

The Necron complain was less about them being OP and more of them being utterly boring to play against. Which, to be fair, was kinda true. When an army basically has a 4+ "nope" save after it's normal save, had little incentives to move, and had a relatively short range for their weapons, it ends up feeling like punching a rock till your fist bleeds because there's nothing better to do.

Are you sure you're not thinking of 7th edition Necrons?

Er, I was talking about the 7th edition necrons. I've seen a grand total of 1 thread complaining about necrons being OP in 8th and that was the hilarious one that coincided with the "Necrons are weak" thread. Then Necron threads in general seem to have faded into the nether.

I've definitely seen more than 1 (though they do indeed seem to have died down) - most of the complaints were aimed at RPs.


I do agree that there was ample reason for people complaining about 7th edition necrons - if only because (as you said earlier) they were so damn boring to play against. And I say that as someone who played Necrons.

I think after the Wraith was brought down to "normal" people generally forgot about them. The majority of the threads here were either about complaining about Ork weapons, Eldar being overcosted, Primaris Marines replacing normal marines, the obligitory "something is no longer being sold, omgwtfbbq" threads, and complaining about the flavour of the month. Necrons just got drowned out. Tbh I forgot they were even a faction until I came across a box of them for cheap recently.

Also my 7th edition Necron army was a Destroyer Cult backed by Wraiths. I was the actual bonafide aged cheddar. :3

"If by "turn off" you mean "get utterly annihilated by" then yes, you'd be right."

That IS turning them off in context. Because then the 250 pt squad instantly dies. 40 for 250, rinse and repeat. I happens 3 more times, and half the assault list is gone.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:
I personally think they went to far with the commissars nerf. Whoever said the commissars should blame someone and treat the die roll as 1 is probably on to the correct solution. Then they help but they don't prevent it and it's never a negative.

Actually it could still be negative . If you suffer too many losses and then roll a 1, the commissar will just take one more head

No, actually i'm fine with this version, i know that sometimes it is silly that he makes things worse, but is fluffy as hell and after all he is causing a total of 4 points of damage, so who cares. He is an extremely cheap character that buffs your leadership and sometimes prevents some guys from running. He is fine, what more do you expect for 31 points?

He can absolutely cause more than 4 pts of damage depending on the unit he is with. And I think people expect him to NOT actively harm our armies for the price (unless we are using conscripts). I know if I wanted one for fluff reasons I'd rather play 1969 points and have him do nothing - that way he is hurting me less.

Both versions are good for the Commisar rule, threating the roll as a 1, or reducing the number of morale loses by D6 (Technically D6-1 because he blams one guy, but...). The second one is better because even rolling a 1, you have a net gain of 0, so you don't lose anything. In the first case in the theorical case of rolling a 1, you'll lose one extra guy yes, but thats in theory, and I think most people will prefer to threat their Morale roll as a 1 at a cost of one guy, instead of playing the dice game and maybe rolling 3 or more. (Rolling a 2 would be the same as the Commisar bonus)

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

I think after the Wraith was brought down to "normal" people generally forgot about them. The majority of the threads here were either about complaining about Ork weapons, Eldar being overcosted, Primaris Marines replacing normal marines, the obligitory "something is no longer being sold, omgwtfbbq" threads, and complaining about the flavour of the month. Necrons just got drowned out. Tbh I forgot they were even a faction until I came across a box of them for cheap recently.

Yeah, I think that sums it up.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Also my 7th edition Necron army was a Destroyer Cult backed by Wraiths. I was the actual bonafide aged cheddar. :3

I used Destroyer Cult and Wraiths as well.

Honestly, i loved my Destroyers in 7th. I own about 10 of the sods (not including the lords) and it was the first edition in ages where they were actually useful.


What was the topic again?

Martel732 wrote:
"If by "turn off" you mean "get utterly annihilated by" then yes, you'd be right."

That IS turning them off in context. Because then the 250 pt squad instantly dies. 40 for 250, rinse and repeat. I happens 3 more times, and half the assault list is gone.

One solution is not spending 1000 points on four units; presumably, the 250 points is WAAAAY too much overkill for a 10 man guard squad. I am fairly sure you could do 8 160 points squads and have the same durability per 10 men (meaning you've now got double the durability against the incoming shooting) without infringing upon your ability to blenderize 40pt squads.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"If by "turn off" you mean "get utterly annihilated by" then yes, you'd be right."

That IS turning them off in context. Because then the 250 pt squad instantly dies. 40 for 250, rinse and repeat. I happens 3 more times, and half the assault list is gone.

One solution is not spending 1000 points on assault units; presumably, the 250 points is WAAAAY too much overkill for a 10 man guard squad. I am fairly sure you could do 8 160 points squads and have the same durability per 10 men (meaning you've now got double the durability against the incoming shooting) without infringing upon your ability to blenderize 40pt squads.

I realize that, but not all opponents are guard. Against MANY foes, like Deathguard, the 250 pt unit is called for. So what's the right power armor assault unit? There really isn't one. That's the problem.

Spoletta wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:
I personally think they went to far with the commissars nerf. Whoever said the commissars should blame someone and treat the die roll as 1 is probably on to the correct solution. Then they help but they don't prevent it and it's never a negative.

Actually it could still be negative . If you suffer too many losses and then roll a 1, the commissar will just take one more head

No, actually i'm fine with this version, i know that sometimes it is silly that he makes things worse, but is fluffy as hell and after all he is causing a total of 4 points of damage, so who cares. He is an extremely cheap character that buffs your leadership and sometimes prevents some guys from running. He is fine, what more do you expect for 31 points?

the issue is that, when we're talking about units that cost 3 or 4 ppm, a 31pt support model is almost another squad. If the reroll ability is too variable in utility and value then all youre really buying is the +Ld, and for most units, thats just not a particularly worthwhile investment for most IG infantry units, just use those points to buy more dudes.

Its not an end of the world nerf, it just makes value of the Commissar such that their investment is difficult to justify and thus is likely to remain on the shelf. At least the Elites versions (Lord Commissar has more value with the Ld9 buff).

 vipoid wrote:
What was the topic again?

Ahem yes we probably should get back to the thread.

MARINE PLAYERS COMPLAIN TOO MUCH.

There, now back on track.

In all seriousness, I'm actually gonna make some AssRazors backing Flamer-equipped BAs just to see if it really is as bad as it sounds. I'm already doing so for Grey Knights. Only thing stopping me is MONEY.

Flamers are awful. I've got four heavy flamer marines, and eight jump flamer dudes, and two TL HF razors. Not to mention four frag cannon dreads. They never pull their weight.

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"If by "turn off" you mean "get utterly annihilated by" then yes, you'd be right."

That IS turning them off in context. Because then the 250 pt squad instantly dies. 40 for 250, rinse and repeat. I happens 3 more times, and half the assault list is gone.

One solution is not spending 1000 points on assault units; presumably, the 250 points is WAAAAY too much overkill for a 10 man guard squad. I am fairly sure you could do 8 160 points squads and have the same durability per 10 men (meaning you've now got double the durability against the incoming shooting) without infringing upon your ability to blenderize 40pt squads.

I realize that, but not all opponents are guard. Against MANY foes, like Deathguard, the 250 pt unit is called for. So what's the right power armor assault unit? There really isn't one. That's the problem.

I mean, the same problem exists within most books. Heck, even within Death Guard, the 8 160pt units would be better if they're building a 'zombie' list than it would be if they're building a 'plague marine' list, in which case you need the 250 pt squads again.

The fact that you need anti-horde stuff to kill hordes and anti-elite stuff to kill elites is not the fault of the guard codex.

I realize that, but the AMOUNT of anti-horde required by the old IG conscript scheme was insane. I'm not sure that 40 pt 10 man squads is going to be any better in practice.

My anti-horde was functional against Orks and Nids, but not IG. So that problem DOES seem like its the IG's fault.

Martel732 wrote:
I realize that, but the AMOUNT of anti-horde required by the old IG conscript scheme was insane. I'm not sure that 40 pt 10 man squads is going to be any better in practice.

My anti-horde was functional against Orks and Nids, but not IG. So that problem DOES seem like its the IG's fault.

I'm just saying you can bring 8 ten-man squads with the same durability as the 4 you were bringing. That should neatly solve the issue against IG artillery, by doubling your wound count for not many more points. Then you said "but I need anti-elite stuff instead".

I don't know what to tell you. Bring some anti-elite, and some anti-horde. Kit your captains to blenderize elites, and your troops to blenderize hordes. I'm not going to build your list for you, but surely you have room in the last 7-800 points for anti-elite.

The saddest thing about the Commissar nerf is how badly it crafted.

If GW made it a 1 time power per model, I think everyone would have considered it a fair nerf.

If GW completely removed Summary Execution, IG players would have complained a lot, but most would still call it fair.

As it stands, it has badly affect the play of 3 units, whether or not you actually play an IG army.

Commissars: Generally aren’t worth the points to field. They have never been much of a shooting unit. They are not much of a melee unit. Now, as a buffing unit, you want to keep them away from anything except conscripts.

Lord Commissar: Maybe worth the points to field. Better than Commissars in Shooting and Melee, but still meh considering the points cost. As a buffing unit, it is okay around other units, and still a good idea for conscripts.

Commissar Yarrick: Unless you are fighting Orcs, probably not worth the points. A good short range shooter, and a great melee character, so that helps mitigate the points cost. As a buffing unit, Cadian regimental doctrine mostly duplicated the re-roll 1s. In combination with Take Aim, RegDoc is even better. So if you aren’t going to fight with Yarrick, or battle against Orcs (Yarrick buff + FRFSRF is still devastating vs Orcs), Yarrick point are probably better spent elsewhere. Making him warlord in smaller armies, might change that, but for bigger armies, there are better warlord choices.

IG players: now have to track every unit that has failed a morale roll within range of a commissar. In friendly games, you do this so that so as not to take advantage against your opponent. If you cheat in friendly games, you deserve it when other people refuse to play against you.

Non-IG players: You now have to track opposing units that have failed a morale roll within range of a commissar, especially in competitive play, since Summary Execution can only affect a given unit once.

So, in general, this nerf has made the game a little harder to play, a little slower to play, and a little less fun to play. It has also made a few models less tempting to buy, and the IG Start Collecting box set less of a value to the purchaser. Does it balance the armies for more competitiveness? A little. Could it have been accomplished more effectively? I don’t think tha there is a single player who can honestly say no.

 Galas wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:
I personally think they went to far with the commissars nerf. Whoever said the commissars should blame someone and treat the die roll as 1 is probably on to the correct solution. Then they help but they don't prevent it and it's never a negative.

Actually it could still be negative . If you suffer too many losses and then roll a 1, the commissar will just take one more head

No, actually i'm fine with this version, i know that sometimes it is silly that he makes things worse, but is fluffy as hell and after all he is causing a total of 4 points of damage, so who cares. He is an extremely cheap character that buffs your leadership and sometimes prevents some guys from running. He is fine, what more do you expect for 31 points?

He can absolutely cause more than 4 pts of damage depending on the unit he is with. And I think people expect him to NOT actively harm our armies for the price (unless we are using conscripts). I know if I wanted one for fluff reasons I'd rather play 1969 points and have him do nothing - that way he is hurting me less.

Both versions are good for the Commisar rule, threating the roll as a 1, or reducing the number of morale loses by D6 (Technically D6-1 because he blams one guy, but...). The second one is better because even rolling a 1, you have a net gain of 0, so you don't lose anything. In the first case in the theorical case of rolling a 1, you'll lose one extra guy yes, but thats in theory, and I think most people will prefer to threat their Morale roll as a 1 at a cost of one guy, instead of playing the dice game and maybe rolling 3 or more. (Rolling a 2 would be the same as the Commisar bonus)

Hmm so make it blam a guy treat roll as 0. Then it's never a negative to blam, at worst it's exactly the same. If that still leaves conscripts too good, don't let his aura work on them. Commissars still fluffy, still useful, and morale still matters.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
What was the topic again?

Ahem yes we probably should get back to the thread.

MARINE PLAYERS COMPLAIN TOO MUCH.

There, now back on track.

In all seriousness, I'm actually gonna make some AssRazors backing Flamer-equipped BAs just to see if it really is as bad as it sounds. I'm already doing so for Grey Knights. Only thing stopping me is MONEY.

It's like you're ignoring people like me that don't only play Marine armies...

Martel732 wrote:
I realize that, but the AMOUNT of anti-horde required by the old IG conscript scheme was insane. I'm not sure that 40 pt 10 man squads is going to be any better in practice.

My anti-horde was functional against Orks and Nids, but not IG. So that problem DOES seem like its the IG's fault.

Neither Tyranids or Orks bring the firepower that Guard do. Maybe you were caught trying to bring knives to a gun fight.

I've tried a lot of variation already. But running out to meet hordes in CC is just not efficient enough. I've had more success running as red marines with no chapter tactics and leaving every single BA specific unit at home and going all shooting. There is just no payoff for running your ass across the table and then punching 20 pts of stuff dead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I realize that, but the AMOUNT of anti-horde required by the old IG conscript scheme was insane. I'm not sure that 40 pt 10 man squads is going to be any better in practice.

My anti-horde was functional against Orks and Nids, but not IG. So that problem DOES seem like its the IG's fault.

Neither Tyranids or Orks bring the firepower that Guard do. Maybe you were caught trying to bring knives to a gun fight.

Yes, I've stopped bringing knives at all.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:
I personally think they went to far with the commissars nerf. Whoever said the commissars should blame someone and treat the die roll as 1 is probably on to the correct solution. Then they help but they don't prevent it and it's never a negative.

Actually it could still be negative . If you suffer too many losses and then roll a 1, the commissar will just take one more head

No, actually i'm fine with this version, i know that sometimes it is silly that he makes things worse, but is fluffy as hell and after all he is causing a total of 4 points of damage, so who cares. He is an extremely cheap character that buffs your leadership and sometimes prevents some guys from running. He is fine, what more do you expect for 31 points?

the issue is that, when we're talking about units that cost 3 or 4 ppm, a 31pt support model is almost another squad. If the reroll ability is too variable in utility and value then all youre really buying is the +Ld, and for most units, thats just not a particularly worthwhile investment for most IG infantry units, just use those points to buy more dudes.

Its not an end of the world nerf, it just makes value of the Commissar such that their investment is difficult to justify and thus is likely to remain on the shelf. At least the Elites versions (Lord Commissar has more value with the Ld9 buff).

Yep, I for one think they swung too far the other way, but it's not the end of the world. It's just for as much as everyone is bitching about the AM codex it's actually what GW should be aspiring to. Lots of fun fluffy good units. If anything there should be people complaining about the other dexes, not the AM one, and this fix removes a bit of the flavor which isn't great imo.

If "get assaulted by something and promptly die horribly" is a "turning off assault" in your book, isn't that something that literally any model with a wound stat can do?

Is a 250 point assault unit entitled to make its points back every time it charges no matter what? What if it charged a 50 point squad of Skitarii? What if it charged a 60 point squad of Veterans? What if it charged a 45 point Sentinel, or 80 points of Guardians?

Are you saying that no unit in the entire game should cost less than 250 points, because otherwise your imaginary 250 point assault unit might need to charge more than once?

duWhee wrote:
The saddest thing about the Commissar nerf is how badly it crafted.

If GW made it a 1 time power per model, I think everyone would have considered it a fair nerf.

If GW completely removed Summary Execution, IG players would have complained a lot, but most would still call it fair.

As it stands, it has badly affect the play of 3 units, whether or not you actually play an IG army.

Commissars: Generally aren’t worth the points to field. They have never been much of a shooting unit. They are not much of a melee unit. Now, as a buffing unit, you want to keep them away from anything except conscripts.

Lord Commissar: Maybe worth the points to field. Better than Commissars in Shooting and Melee, but still meh considering the points cost. As a buffing unit, it is okay around other units, and still a good idea for conscripts.

Commissar Yarrick: Unless you are fighting Orcs, probably not worth the points. A good short range shooter, and a great melee character, so that helps mitigate the points cost. As a buffing unit, Cadian regimental doctrine mostly duplicated the re-roll 1s. In combination with Take Aim, RegDoc is even better. So if you aren’t going to fight with Yarrick, or battle against Orcs (Yarrick buff + FRFSRF is still devastating vs Orcs), Yarrick point are probably better spent elsewhere. Making him warlord in smaller armies, might change that, but for bigger armies, there are better warlord choices.

IG players: now have to track every unit that has failed a morale roll within range of a commissar. In friendly games, you do this so that so as not to take advantage against your opponent. If you cheat in friendly games, you deserve it when other people refuse to play against you.

Non-IG players: You now have to track opposing units that have failed a morale roll within range of a commissar, especially in competitive play, since Summary Execution can only affect a given unit once.

So, in general, this nerf has made the game a little harder to play, a little slower to play, and a little less fun to play. It has also made a few models less tempting to buy, and the IG Start Collecting box set less of a value to the purchaser. Does it balance the armies for more competitiveness? A little. Could it have been accomplished more effectively? I don’t think tha there is a single player who can honestly say no.

^what duWhee said.

The issue isnt the power level reduction, most people are fine with the shift in balance. The issues people have is that was a (in typical GW fashion) poorly constructed fix, especially for units other than Conscripts.

No, that's not what I'm saying, and I think you know that.

Martel732 wrote:
I've tried a lot of variation already. But running out to meet hordes in CC is just not efficient enough. I've had more success running as red marines with no chapter tactics and leaving every single BA specific unit at home and going all shooting. There is just no payoff for running your ass across the table and then punching 20 pts of stuff dead.

Okay, let's say you brought 8 units of 160 point guys and doubled your durability. That means that scenario you listed before (where the guard shooting kills 4 250 point units) will take twice as long to kill the 160 point units.

But they don't really take twice as long to kill the 40 point guardsmen. In fact, if you get them all into combat, you've killed 80 guardsmen. That's bound to make a hole in the screen, and that's only in 1 fight phase with 1280 points of units. Surely your 80 men can endure the return fire and then get among the backfield with ~30 guys left at least!

Unless you think a guard player brings enough units and artillery to literally wipe out > 60 marines in a single shooting phase. That's... a lot of units. In order to kill 60 marines with manticores, you'd have to have something like 30 manticores all firing with no overkill (they kill on average 2 marines per turn).

Well then "I might charge a 250 point unit against a 40 point unit and not earn my cost back" is a pretty empty argument isn't it? You overkilled a unit, it died, that plays out the same way with any number of units. What's so special about that?

Darkagl1 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:
I personally think they went to far with the commissars nerf. Whoever said the commissars should blame someone and treat the die roll as 1 is probably on to the correct solution. Then they help but they don't prevent it and it's never a negative.

Actually it could still be negative . If you suffer too many losses and then roll a 1, the commissar will just take one more head

No, actually i'm fine with this version, i know that sometimes it is silly that he makes things worse, but is fluffy as hell and after all he is causing a total of 4 points of damage, so who cares. He is an extremely cheap character that buffs your leadership and sometimes prevents some guys from running. He is fine, what more do you expect for 31 points?

He can absolutely cause more than 4 pts of damage depending on the unit he is with. And I think people expect him to NOT actively harm our armies for the price (unless we are using conscripts). I know if I wanted one for fluff reasons I'd rather play 1969 points and have him do nothing - that way he is hurting me less.

Both versions are good for the Commisar rule, threating the roll as a 1, or reducing the number of morale loses by D6 (Technically D6-1 because he blams one guy, but...). The second one is better because even rolling a 1, you have a net gain of 0, so you don't lose anything. In the first case in the theorical case of rolling a 1, you'll lose one extra guy yes, but thats in theory, and I think most people will prefer to threat their Morale roll as a 1 at a cost of one guy, instead of playing the dice game and maybe rolling 3 or more. (Rolling a 2 would be the same as the Commisar bonus)

Hmm so make it blam a guy treat roll as 0. Then it's never a negative to blam, at worst it's exactly the same. If that still leaves conscripts too good, don't let his aura work on them. Commissars still fluffy, still useful, and morale still matters.

That could be good too, yes. The point is making Commissars a tool to help agains't morale, not to NEGATE morale. With this probably they should have too a small discount in points because their utility isn't as good as before.

 ross-128 wrote:
Well then "I might charge a 250 point unit against a 40 point unit and not earn my cost back" is a pretty empty argument isn't it? You overkilled a unit, it died, that plays out the same way with any number of units. What's so special about that?

Not really. It sums up the plight of assault in general. You can shift the numbers around a little, but it will play out much the same. The cheapest assault unit I've got is 80 pts for 5 guys. 5 guys that won't wipe a 10 man IG unit, at that even if they all get there intact.

Martel732 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Well then "I might charge a 250 point unit against a 40 point unit and not earn my cost back" is a pretty empty argument isn't it? You overkilled a unit, it died, that plays out the same way with any number of units. What's so special about that?

Not really. It sums up the plight of assault in general. You can shift the numbers around a little, but it will play out much the same. The cheapest assault unit I've got is 80 pts for 5 guys. 5 guys that won't wipe a 10 man IG unit, at that even if they all get there intact.

Did you see my suggestion, martel? About running 8 160pt units? (or perhaps 16 80 point units? The costs are the same).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I've tried a lot of variation already. But running out to meet hordes in CC is just not efficient enough. I've had more success running as red marines with no chapter tactics and leaving every single BA specific unit at home and going all shooting. There is just no payoff for running your ass across the table and then punching 20 pts of stuff dead.

Okay, let's say you brought 8 units of 160 point guys and doubled your durability. That means that scenario you listed before (where the guard shooting kills 4 250 point units) will take twice as long to kill the 160 point units.

But they don't really take twice as long to kill the 40 point guardsmen. In fact, if you get them all into combat, you've killed 80 guardsmen. That's bound to make a hole in the screen, and that's only in 1 fight phase with 1280 points of units. Surely your 80 men can endure the return fire and then get among the backfield with ~30 guys left at least!

Unless you think a guard player brings enough units and artillery to literally wipe out > 60 marines in a single shooting phase. That's... a lot of units. In order to kill 60 marines with manticores, you'd have to have something like 30 manticores all firing with no overkill (they kill on average 2 marines per turn).

The transit time kills them. You won't hit at full strength, which slows down how fast you cut through them, and the vicious cycle begins. Wvyerns alone are frighteningly efficient vs marines, assuming all other artillery goes into marines AT elements. The fire coming from 2K of IG is just way too much for meq body counts. A 16 pt naked guy with no cover and T4 3+ is just too fragile in 8th. That's why no one is even trying this in tournaments anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Well then "I might charge a 250 point unit against a 40 point unit and not earn my cost back" is a pretty empty argument isn't it? You overkilled a unit, it died, that plays out the same way with any number of units. What's so special about that?

Not really. It sums up the plight of assault in general. You can shift the numbers around a little, but it will play out much the same. The cheapest assault unit I've got is 80 pts for 5 guys. 5 guys that won't wipe a 10 man IG unit, at that even if they all get there intact.

Did you see my suggestion, martel? About running 8 160pt units? (or perhaps 16 80 point units? The costs are the same).

Yes, and they have the firepower to engage that as well, because your chop time is going to be much higher. Don't forget a big chunk of these points are buffing characters as well.

Martel732 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Well then "I might charge a 250 point unit against a 40 point unit and not earn my cost back" is a pretty empty argument isn't it? You overkilled a unit, it died, that plays out the same way with any number of units. What's so special about that?

Not really. It sums up the plight of assault in general. You can shift the numbers around a little, but it will play out much the same. The cheapest assault unit I've got is 80 pts for 5 guys. 5 guys that won't wipe a 10 man IG unit, at that even if they all get there intact.

Nothing there is new though. The only new thing that happens is that squads can walk away from assault. In the old days, you'd just let the commissar die and the squad would disappear. You give up a handful more points (that you didn't really care about anyway) and you still get to control when you shoot at the assault unit.

I feel like IG has always been a hard counter to elite assault lists.

It has, really. That's why I say power armor assault has been dead since 5th. The IG from 5th is why I say that. I was just kinda hoping 8th might change that. It didn't, just made it worse.