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I had a list built for a tournament next Saturday and the infantry line looked like this:

6x infantry squads las/plas + 2 Commissars

Now it's:

6x infantry squads las/plas + 20 conscripts.

Working as intended?

That wasn't the target list.

Hmm, looks like a reasonable FAQ overall. Summary Execution still needs more work. Not that I actually care if they do that or not.

Anyway, I can work with these changes.

Let's do 1280 points of assault marines vs 1290 points of IG, with 360 of those points in guard squads (giving you 9), leaving 930 points for Wyverns (10)

Assumption list:
1) A single Wyvern kills, on average, exactly 1.75 marines per shooting phase.

2) It takes your jump troops two full turns to fly up the board (letting them charge the bottom of Turn 2 at the latest, top of Turn 2 at the earliest.)

3) One Assault Marine sergeant survives for every full 10 Assault Marines who are alive (even though they'd be in squads of 5; we'll assume some sergeants are being killed)

4) The guard screen is dense enough to allow for multi-charge tactics (if it was not this dense, there would be holes in it to charge into with the Fly assault marines). Assault casualties are split evenly among units.

If the guard go first:
The Wyverns kill 18 Marines, the IG lasguns kill 5, leaving 57. The 57 remaining marines move up.

Turn 2

The Wyverns kill 17 Marines, the IG lasguns kill 9.
The 32 remaining marines charge.
20 Guardsmen are killed, and the Marines consolidate (or not, doesn't matter).

Turn 3:

The Wyverns kill 18 marines, the IG lasguns kill 7.

7 assault marines dick around and eventually die (the Marine force is whittled to nothingness).

If the SM go first:
Turn 1:
The 80 Assault Marines move up.
The Wyverns kill 18 Marines, the IG lasguns kill 5, leaving 57.

Turn 2:
The remaining 57 Assault Marines move up and charge, killing 35 guardsmen. Each squad loses ~4 models, and so on average another is lost to morale: 9 more guardsmen drop for a total of 44 dead.

The remaining guardsmen fall back, and the Wyverns fire. The Wyverns do 17 wounds.

Turn 3:
The remaining 40 Assault Marines charge the remainder of the IG screen, killing 25 guardsmen. This is ~3 per squad, so they're steady on morale.

The guardsmen fall back, and The Wyverns fire and kill 18 Marines.

Turn 4:
The Space Marines are in amongst the artillery, preventing it from shooting, as 21 Guardsmen cannot effectively screen 10 wyverns against units with Fly. From here, the IG army will not kill 22 marines with lasguns until the battle ends.



SO, in conclusion, it seems like a normal 8th edition battle: whomever goes first wins.

Maybe. But I'm never bringing that list because of the problems it has across the board.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe. But I'm never bringing that list because of the problems it has across the board.

If you say so. I still think you're just salty that this anti-horde tactic isn't good against elite units. For that my answer is: not the Guard's fault that you need different tools for different problems.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Let's do 1280 points of assault marines vs 1290 points of IG, with 360 of those points in guard squads (giving you 9), leaving 930 points for Wyverns (10)

Assumption list:
1) A single Wyvern kills, on average, exactly 1.75 marines per shooting phase.

2) It takes your jump troops two full turns to fly up the board (letting them charge the bottom of Turn 2 at the latest, top of Turn 2 at the earliest.)

3) One Assault Marine sergeant survives for every full 10 Assault Marines who are alive (even though they'd be in squads of 5; we'll assume some sergeants are being killed)

4) The guard screen is dense enough to allow for multi-charge tactics (if it was not this dense, there would be holes in it to charge into with the Fly assault marines). Assault casualties are split evenly among units.

If the guard go first:
The Wyverns kill 18 Marines, the IG lasguns kill 5, leaving 57. The 57 remaining marines move up.

Turn 2

The Wyverns kill 17 Marines, the IG lasguns kill 9.
The 32 remaining marines charge.
20 Guardsmen are killed, and the Marines consolidate (or not, doesn't matter).

Turn 3:

The Wyverns kill 18 marines, the IG lasguns kill 7.

7 assault marines dick around and eventually die (the Marine force is whittled to nothingness).

If the SM go first:
Turn 1:
The 80 Assault Marines move up.
The Wyverns kill 18 Marines, the IG lasguns kill 5, leaving 57.

Turn 2:
The remaining 57 Assault Marines move up and charge, killing 35 guardsmen. Each squad loses ~4 models, and so on average another is lost to morale: 9 more guardsmen drop for a total of 44 dead.

The remaining guardsmen fall back, and the Wyverns fire. The Wyverns do 17 wounds.

Turn 3:
The remaining 40 Assault Marines charge the remainder of the IG screen, killing 25 guardsmen. This is ~3 per squad, so they're steady on morale.

The guardsmen fall back, and The Wyverns fire and kill 18 Marines.

Turn 4:
The Space Marines are in amongst the artillery, preventing it from shooting, as 21 Guardsmen cannot effectively screen 10 wyverns against units with Fly. From here, the IG army will not kill 22 marines with lasguns until the battle ends.



SO, in conclusion, it seems like a normal 8th edition battle: whomever goes first wins.

Dude, I play orks and have gone first many times only to lose.

 lolman1c wrote:
Dude, I play orks and have gone first many times only to lose.

I actually lose a lot going first too. Turns out 3 baneblades just lumber around the field until the enemy deepstrikes on them and then they explode.

But Dakkadakka consensus seems to be that 8th is the edition of "go first = win first" and so I am just speaking to that. We can make a separate thread on whether or not that is true though.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe. But I'm never bringing that list because of the problems it has across the board.

If you say so. I still think you're just salty that this anti-horde tactic isn't good against elite units. For that my answer is: not the Guard's fault that you need different tools for different problems.

If you say so.

I'd have liked to see Conscripts affected the same way by Commissars as for orders. Commissar executes someone and you roll a d6. On a 4+, the squad auto-passes Morale. On a 1-3, the squad rolls for Morale as normal.

Not a Guard player, but I could see the use there. You could spend a CP to reroll but you can still fail again. You could also just spend 1 CP more and autopass. Then the whole thing becomes about choices and not insta-picks.

It still makes the interaction an "all or nothing" issue that erase one of the phases of the game for Imperial Guard. The oldmmissar rule was bad game design. Glad it is gone. Personally, I think the new rule is just... bad, it should be changed, but not going back to just "Shoot one guy, ignore morale", or any kind of "just ignore morale"

Martel732 wrote:
It has, really. That's why I say power armor assault has been dead since 5th. The IG from 5th is why I say that. I was just kinda hoping 8th might change that. It didn't, just made it worse.

Remind me again why Marine players think they should be able to run power armoured bods towards the enemy line with minimal cover? I still do not understand why they are so surprised when dug in tanks and artillery wreck their exposed units.

 Vaktathi wrote:
the issue is that, when we're talking about units that cost 3 or 4 ppm, a 31pt support model is almost another squad. If the reroll ability is too variable in utility and value then all youre really buying is the +Ld, and for most units, thats just not a particularly worthwhile investment for most IG infantry units, just use those points to buy more dudes.

The commissar reroll results in additional 0 wounds on average.

Yes, zero.

This isn't the same as rerolling a bad result or rolling two and picking the highest.

Rolling a 1 then a 6 is equally as likely as rolling a 6 then a 1.

A LD4 unit taking 10 wounds will lose 6 plus D6.
A LD8 unit taking 10 wounds will lose 2 plus D6.

I know which i'd rather have. Yes you MIGHT lose an extra 5 or you might gain 5. You also might roll 1 damage for your lascannon.

In other words if a unit sustains 3 morale tests in a game and a commissar can cover two units then he saves 24 models or 72 points. You can do half as good and still make his cost.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It has, really. That's why I say power armor assault has been dead since 5th. The IG from 5th is why I say that. I was just kinda hoping 8th might change that. It didn't, just made it worse.

Remind me again why Marine players think they should be able to run power armoured bods towards the enemy line with minimal cover? I still do not understand why they are so surprised when dug in tanks and artillery wreck their exposed units.

That's easy. We believe the fluff where our power Armour is equal to tank Armour and defects Las beams like rain charging gloriously through open ground shredding thr enemy with bolter fire.

Terminator Armour can take a lad cannon impact and keep on marching as it's legandry durability turns aside all but the mightiest blows.

One lascannon impact maybe, good thing there's more than one.

Edit: Also, generic comment about fluff being propaganda and lies.

 jhe90 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It has, really. That's why I say power armor assault has been dead since 5th. The IG from 5th is why I say that. I was just kinda hoping 8th might change that. It didn't, just made it worse.

Remind me again why Marine players think they should be able to run power armoured bods towards the enemy line with minimal cover? I still do not understand why they are so surprised when dug in tanks and artillery wreck their exposed units.

That's easy. We believe the fluff where our power Armour is equal to tank Armour and defects Las beams like rain charging gloriously through open ground shredding thr enemy with bolter fire.

Terminator Armour can take a lad cannon impact and keep on marching.

And Leman Russ battle tanks are some of the best armoured vehicles to exist, shrugging of the heaviest weapons and ignoring everything that isn't a high powered heavy weapon.

Its almost as though the game rules don't perfectly mirror the fluff. Nor should it.

Plenty of examples of marines taking cover in the fluff.

So, you want your basic power armor to basically be what a Dreadnought is currently, except that it still costs 13ppm?

I'm not surprised. This whole thread has been me NOT being surprised. Evidently, some IG players ARE surprised.

But yes, that whole point is why assault meqs are basically useless, and have been since 5th. Not numerous enough to survive gunlines, not punchy enough to take on truly fearsome CC foes. They sure did kick ass while on bikes and made invisible, though.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
the issue is that, when we're talking about units that cost 3 or 4 ppm, a 31pt support model is almost another squad. If the reroll ability is too variable in utility and value then all youre really buying is the +Ld, and for most units, thats just not a particularly worthwhile investment for most IG infantry units, just use those points to buy more dudes.

The commissar reroll results in additional 0 wounds on average.

Yes, zero.

This isn't the same as rerolling a bad result or rolling two and picking the highest.

Rolling a 1 then a 6 is equally as likely as rolling a 6 then a 1.

A LD4 unit taking 10 wounds will lose 6 plus D6.
A LD8 unit taking 10 wounds will lose 2 plus D6.

I know which i'd rather have. Yes you MIGHT lose an extra 5 or you might gain 5. You also might roll 1 damage for your lascannon.

You forgot to add the 1 the Commissar kills.

And sure, LD8 by itself is amazing when you get it for free. But would you pay an extra 31 points to put it on a 3 point model, when 30 points can get you that AND a +1 BS?

 ross-128 wrote:
So, you want your basic power armor to basically be what a Dreadnought is currently, except that it still costs 13ppm?

Well. If Matt Ward writes us a new codex we might!

I was joking partly, but we soon so much fluff or marines running head long into battle, charging through gunfire like rain.

Marines are tough, and new primias are more marines as they should be. Termies too with extra wounds and now no more dieing to a single bad Las shot. Allied custoes are great for when you need some real heavy hitters.

Things have improved by a good margin for marine players.

The tanks no longer quite drop dead instantly with a single bad shot from a man portable scatter laser.

Gaurd to better reflect fluff. And the MC, AV gap is now gone.
Both armies improved. The land raider is viable again. The leman russ is tougher.

The tau, and eldar no longer are immune to loss of capability.

 ross-128 wrote:
If "get assaulted by something and promptly die horribly" is a "turning off assault" in your book, isn't that something that literally any model with a wound stat can do?

Is a 250 point assault unit entitled to make its points back every time it charges no matter what? What if it charged a 50 point squad of Skitarii? What if it charged a 60 point squad of Veterans? What if it charged a 45 point Sentinel, or 80 points of Guardians?

Are you saying that no unit in the entire game should cost less than 250 points, because otherwise your imaginary 250 point assault unit might need to charge more than once?

80 points of Guardians is maybe 10 models and 80 points of Conscripts is 26 models. There's a pretty big different here.

Don't bother. He knows what I mean. It's just fun to kick lists when they are down.

I find it pretty funny that all these IG guys were saying, "oh you pay all these points for marines but you get AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR, SO OP SPACE MARINES, remember <insert scenario> from <insert previous edition>, wow," now they get ATSKNF on their conscripts and it's "this ability sucks." LOL. Loving the tides of salt this thread is reaping.

You could run a 10 man assault squad. Lose 6 guys. Now, it's 8-(6+D6). You roll a 4. You're losing 2 models. You roll again. You get a 6. You lose the last 4. Bummer right? We've been dealing with this since 8th dropped.

 Marmatag wrote:
I find it pretty funny that all these IG guys were saying, "oh you pay all these points for marines but you get AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR, SO OP SPACE MARINES, remember <insert scenario> from <insert previous edition>, wow," now they get ATSKNF on their conscripts and it's "this ability sucks." LOL. Loving the tides of salt this thread is reaping.

You could run a 10 man assault squad. Lose 6 guys. Now, it's 8-(6+D6). You roll a 4. You're losing 2 models. You roll again. You get a 6. You lose the last 4. Bummer right? We've been dealing with this since 8th dropped.

Nopes, they're still pretty significantly different. ATSKNF says that you CAN reroll. The commissar ability is a compulsory reroll. In any situation where you cannot pass the morale test, taking one is just increasing the casualties you suffer.

I would be stoked if it worked like ATSKNF.

 Marmatag wrote:
I find it pretty funny that all these IG guys were saying, "oh you pay all these points for marines but you get AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR, SO OP SPACE MARINES, remember <insert scenario> from <insert previous edition>, wow," now they get ATSKNF on their conscripts and it's "this ability sucks." LOL. Loving the tides of salt this thread is reaping.

You could run a 10 man assault squad. Lose 6 guys. Now, it's 8-(6+D6). You roll a 4. You're losing 2 models. You roll again. You get a 6. You lose the last 4. Bummer right? We've been dealing with this since 8th dropped.

You realize ATSKNF is optional, right? You can decide if the risk is worth it or not. The new Commissar rule goes off even if you failed by 1 and you lose an extra model in the bargain. I don't see how you can possibly look at those two rules and go "lol, it's the same as our rule guyz, lol IG are just whiny babies, salt mines 4thewin, lol."

GW have released a fix for commissars? I'm impressed. Sure, it could probably be fine-tuned a bit, but i'm trying to remember the last time they tried to fix a problem in a timely fashion. Maybe they are NuGW after all? If this keeps up, i might have to get me some dreadnoughts.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
the issue is that, when we're talking about units that cost 3 or 4 ppm, a 31pt support model is almost another squad. If the reroll ability is too variable in utility and value then all youre really buying is the +Ld, and for most units, thats just not a particularly worthwhile investment for most IG infantry units, just use those points to buy more dudes.

The commissar reroll results in additional 0 wounds on average.

On average, sure, but we've got big tails on those, and run into issues where you will know ahead of the reroll that you will do worse or will do worse in most circumstances. The variability there and lack of choice in the reroll is what kills the functionality of that ability.

This isn't the same as rerolling a bad result or rolling two and picking the highest.

Rolling a 1 then a 6 is equally as likely as rolling a 6 then a 1.

A LD4 unit taking 10 wounds will lose 6 plus D6.
A LD8 unit taking 10 wounds will lose 2 plus D6.

And for anything other than Conscripts (as I noted above, "for *most* IG infantry units"), they're dead either way because they dont come in squad sizes larger than 10. The Ld boost also isnt as critcal because their base Ld isnt 4.

The issue now is that the Commissar provided a functional boon for hurt but still functional 10man units, and no longer does. A Veteran or Stormtrooper squad knocked down to 5 dudes from 10 would only have lost one dude on a failed test under the old ability, and passed the morale test on average 1 in 3 times. Now it has a higher 1 in 2.25 average pass rate, but it can be wiped entirely, and will lose more than one dude to Morale just as often as it will pass the test (counting the reroll).

As a result, the risk/reward is balanced such that the overall value nets out to roughly zero (higher chance to pass, but higher casualties on a fail), thus the only thing of value the Commissar is bringing is the Ld bonus, which isnt worth it for most infantry except Conscripts, or with a Lord Commissar (who can boost Ld to the point where the reroll is likely to be superfluous anyway).

I know which i'd rather have. Yes you MIGHT lose an extra 5 or you might gain 5. You also might roll 1 damage for your lascannon.

The issue is that you will run into situations where you know ahead of time the reroll will be worse no matter what, and have no choice in the matter. If you fail by 1 or 2 after losing 5 or 7 dudes in a unit but have all or most of the upgrade weapons left, youd probably not want to take the reroll if you had the choice.

In other words if a unit sustains 3 morale tests in a game and a commissar can cover two units then he saves 24 models or 72 points. You can do half as good and still make his cost.

Which would really only apply to Conscripts, going back to my earlier point about "most" IG infantry units.

TL;DR basically the change makes Elites commissars largely pointless outside of Conscripts because the reroll ability doesnt bring any net utility to the table given the squad sizes in question and doesnt provide enough of an Ld boost to be worth the investment.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not surprised. This whole thread has been me NOT being surprised. Evidently, some IG players ARE surprised.

But yes, that whole point is why assault meqs are basically useless, and have been since 5th. Not numerous enough to survive gunlines, not punchy enough to take on truly fearsome CC foes. They sure did kick ass while on bikes and made invisible, though.

I had great success with assault MEQ's in 5th with my CSM's. They just all had to ride in Rhinos. The big issue there was more the support units werent great

 ross-128 wrote:
So, you want your basic power armor to basically be what a Dreadnought is currently, except that it still costs 13ppm?

Like I said earlier, they won't be satisfied until the basic marine can tank 3 lascannon shots per turn, Terminators leaping across the board to wipe entire hordes off the table, and characters granting rerolls to everything without CP cost.

Because Movie Marines.

Nope. Not at all. But keep thinking that.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
So, you want your basic power armor to basically be what a Dreadnought is currently, except that it still costs 13ppm?

Like I said earlier, they won't be satisfied until the basic marine can tank 3 lascannon shots per turn, Terminators leaping across the board to wipe entire hordes off the table, and characters granting rerolls to everything without CP cost.

Because Movie Marines.

You'd have a point if marines outside of Guilliman were doing well, and Guard wasn't the single best performing faction in the game.