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 Marmatag wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
So, you want your basic power armor to basically be what a Dreadnought is currently, except that it still costs 13ppm?

Like I said earlier, they won't be satisfied until the basic marine can tank 3 lascannon shots per turn, Terminators leaping across the board to wipe entire hordes off the table, and characters granting rerolls to everything without CP cost.

Because Movie Marines.

You'd have a point if marines outside of Guilliman were doing well, and Guard wasn't the single best performing faction in the game.

After the most recent FAQ, I'd be surprised if Guard end up still the reigning kings. They will be good, but Conscript spam with a Commissar was a huge thing in so many Imperium lists and not even just Guard. Now, you'll have Mortarions reliably taking out entire squads of 30 in one fight phase and after Morale.

 Marmatag wrote:
I find it pretty funny that all these IG guys were saying, "oh you pay all these points for marines but you get AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR, SO OP SPACE MARINES, remember <insert scenario> from <insert previous edition>, wow," now they get ATSKNF on their conscripts and it's "this ability sucks." LOL. Loving the tides of salt this thread is reaping.

You could run a 10 man assault squad. Lose 6 guys. Now, it's 8-(6+D6). You roll a 4. You're losing 2 models. You roll again. You get a 6. You lose the last 4. Bummer right? We've been dealing with this since 8th dropped.

Alright, you can have ATSKNF as a 31 point upgrade to your unit that requires you to sacrifice a model every time you use it.

Somehow I don't think you'd want that, though.

But really, if you think Marines are too expensive at 13 just how cheap do you want them? 12? 11? 10?

All I see here are Marine players salty that their "anti everything 7ed death star lists" fail in 8th due to low model count being a hindrance.

I mean, if your facing a horde army you equip it with anti horde weapons. Complaining to us that your anti elite killer units don't work as well against hordes is going to cause you to get some stick.

Martel732 wrote:
Nope. Not at all. But keep thinking that.

He's actually ignoring me when I said I'm speaking as a Necron and AdMech player.

 Dr. Mills wrote:
All I see here are Marine players salty that their "anti everything 7ed death star lists" fail in 8th due to low model count being a hindrance.

I mean, if your facing a horde army you equip it with anti horde weapons. Complaining to us that your anti elite killer units don't work as well against hordes is going to cause you to get some stick.

That's list tailoring, and a non-solution. BA had zero death stars in 7th. Try again.

 Marmatag wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
So, you want your basic power armor to basically be what a Dreadnought is currently, except that it still costs 13ppm?

Like I said earlier, they won't be satisfied until the basic marine can tank 3 lascannon shots per turn, Terminators leaping across the board to wipe entire hordes off the table, and characters granting rerolls to everything without CP cost.

Because Movie Marines.

You'd have a point if marines outside of Guilliman were doing well, and Guard wasn't the single best performing faction in the game.

Wasn't there just a tourney thread that had Primaris marines without Guiliman taking second place and the highest Guard army at 4th? Anecdotal of course, but marines seem to be doing fairly well.

RogueApiary wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I find it pretty funny that all these IG guys were saying, "oh you pay all these points for marines but you get AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR, SO OP SPACE MARINES, remember <insert scenario> from <insert previous edition>, wow," now they get ATSKNF on their conscripts and it's "this ability sucks." LOL. Loving the tides of salt this thread is reaping.

You could run a 10 man assault squad. Lose 6 guys. Now, it's 8-(6+D6). You roll a 4. You're losing 2 models. You roll again. You get a 6. You lose the last 4. Bummer right? We've been dealing with this since 8th dropped.

You realize ATSKNF is optional, right? You can decide if the risk is worth it or not. The new Commissar rule goes off even if you failed by 1 and you lose an extra model in the bargain. I don't see how you can possibly look at those two rules and go "lol, it's the same as our rule guyz, lol IG are just whiny babies, salt mines 4thewin, lol."

I don't think very many people are complaining about the nerf in relation to Conscripts, what everyone is complaining about is the nerf in regards to regular guardsmen and the more expensive stuff. For 31 points minimum, you get the option of killing a soldier and getting a worse result than before. Considering Commissar's really don't have that much of a damage output on their own, what with having a strength 4 bolt pistol and some sweet strength 3 melee attacks, you are paying those points for what is a +1 leadership bubble and a mandatory reroll on morale.

Infantry are 4 points, Veterans are 6 points, and Scions are 10 points (technically 9, but their minimal loadout requires an extra point spent). With one 10 man squad, the cost of a Commissar effectively increases the cost of the unit by 3 points per model and in exchange gives them a +1 leadership and a strictly worse AHSKNF.

Conscripts though, Commissars still have a role - that same 31 points gives them a +4 leadership.

Fix the relationship between Commissar and the 4+ and 3+ to hit units, and this nerf will be perfectly fine - either use the above formula but divide it by 2 rounding down, or give the Guard player the option to take the initial result or blam a flat 1d3 models from the unit. That way they still have a role with those units.

 Dr. Mills wrote:
All I see here are Marine players salty that their "anti everything 7ed death star lists" fail in 8th due to low model count being a hindrance.

I mean, if your facing a horde army you equip it with anti horde weapons. Complaining to us that your anti elite killer units don't work as well against hordes is going to cause you to get some stick.

There are no anti-horde weapons though.

Tyel wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
All I see here are Marine players salty that their "anti everything 7ed death star lists" fail in 8th due to low model count being a hindrance.

I mean, if your facing a horde army you equip it with anti horde weapons. Complaining to us that your anti elite killer units don't work as well against hordes is going to cause you to get some stick.

There are no anti-horde weapons though.

Bad ones.

Tyel wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
All I see here are Marine players salty that their "anti everything 7ed death star lists" fail in 8th due to low model count being a hindrance.

I mean, if your facing a horde army you equip it with anti horde weapons. Complaining to us that your anti elite killer units don't work as well against hordes is going to cause you to get some stick.

There are no anti-horde weapons though.

"Take 10 Tacs, shoot with bolter, then charge," will generally wipe out a guard squad.

You know it's not that simple.

Martel732 wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
All I see here are Marine players salty that their "anti everything 7ed death star lists" fail in 8th due to low model count being a hindrance.

I mean, if your facing a horde army you equip it with anti horde weapons. Complaining to us that your anti elite killer units don't work as well against hordes is going to cause you to get some stick.

There are no anti-horde weapons though.

Bad ones.

Twin AC
Quad HB rapiers
Hurricane Bolters
C-beam cannons
Grav flux bombards
Twin kheres assault cannons

Mortars
Punisher cannons
Gatling Cannons

Tesla
Massed gauss fire

Heavy Phosphor Blasters

5+ weirdboyz using d6 smites followed by a da jump charge

Warpfire? (honestly cant remember the name) Bolters

Every single one of the above has shredded my infantry, Conscripts or no, and I'm probably missing a few. Most of those are available to Marines, and even more are available via allies.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
So, you want your basic power armor to basically be what a Dreadnought is currently, except that it still costs 13ppm?

Like I said earlier, they won't be satisfied until the basic marine can tank 3 lascannon shots per turn, Terminators leaping across the board to wipe entire hordes off the table, and characters granting rerolls to everything without CP cost.

Because Movie Marines.

Give us some multilasers, we getting somewhere

Someone summon Matt Ward. We need him.

 jhe90 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
So, you want your basic power armor to basically be what a Dreadnought is currently, except that it still costs 13ppm?

Like I said earlier, they won't be satisfied until the basic marine can tank 3 lascannon shots per turn, Terminators leaping across the board to wipe entire hordes off the table, and characters granting rerolls to everything without CP cost.

Because Movie Marines.

Give us some multilasers, we getting somewhere

Someone summon Matt Ward. We need him.

If Ward was fused with Goto, we'd truly have something to fear.

So, with regards to the 250 point CQC unit being "turned off" by the Conscripts, how do you think I feel about my artillery tanks and line tanks being "turned off" by CQC units?


That's how the strategy of the game works. Part of your goal is find a way to efficiently "turn off" enemy units and neutralize their contribution. Conscripts allow me to neutralize the threat your CQC units present to my tanks, without having to destroy them, which is inherently much more efficient that just trying to out-shoot/out-fight them, since there are a great many easy ways to neutralize just shooting it full of lead.



Also, Power Armor CQC, and, in fact, CQC as the core of a list, can die and stay dead, IMO.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, Power Armor CQC, and, in fact, CQC as the core of a list, can die and stay dead, IMO.

What's your issue with CC? It's a hell of a lot more interesting than gunlines that stay stock still 48" away and just roll dice.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
So, with regards to the 250 point CQC unit being "turned off" by the Conscripts, how do you think I feel about my artillery tanks and line tanks being "turned off" by CQC units?


That's how the strategy of the game works. Part of your goal is find a way to efficiently "turn off" enemy units and neutralize their contribution. Conscripts allow me to neutralize the threat your CQC units present to my tanks, without having to destroy them, which is inherently much more efficient that just trying to out-shoot/out-fight them, since there are a great many easy ways to neutralize just shooting it full of lead.



Also, Power Armor CQC, and, in fact, CQC as the core of a list, can die and stay dead, IMO.

Give me a way to as easily neutralize your shooting and we'll call it even.

Until then, I hope you like Rowboat gunlines, because that's what serious marines players have to do.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, Power Armor CQC, and, in fact, CQC as the core of a list, can die and stay dead, IMO.

What's your issue with CC? It's a hell of a lot more interesting than gunlines that stay stock still 48" away and just roll dice.

Like hell it is.

I kind of go to sleep when melee is joined. I'd rather play a gunline than a CQC list, because at least then there's terrain, line of effect, firing lanes, areas where you just can't advance into because of weight of fire focused on that point, and etc. Playing with CQC is "go that way, don't get shot, and try to measure your distance just right enough to get your charge and they fail theirs."


I don't think CQC should be a thing, just that armies shouldn't be built around CQC at their core and it should instead be a specialist tasking for units, or a desperation maneuver.

Then you should only play against Guard for now on.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, Power Armor CQC, and, in fact, CQC as the core of a list, can die and stay dead, IMO.

What's your issue with CC? It's a hell of a lot more interesting than gunlines that stay stock still 48" away and just roll dice.

I can see why CC isn't very appealing, since once you cross no-man's land you either wipe your opponent or get wiped. It's another thing with the game where it lacks decent counterplay other than "back up and shoot".

And this is coming from someone with 40 khorne berserkers.

Martel732 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
So, with regards to the 250 point CQC unit being "turned off" by the Conscripts, how do you think I feel about my artillery tanks and line tanks being "turned off" by CQC units?


That's how the strategy of the game works. Part of your goal is find a way to efficiently "turn off" enemy units and neutralize their contribution. Conscripts allow me to neutralize the threat your CQC units present to my tanks, without having to destroy them, which is inherently much more efficient that just trying to out-shoot/out-fight them, since there are a great many easy ways to neutralize just shooting it full of lead.



Also, Power Armor CQC, and, in fact, CQC as the core of a list, can die and stay dead, IMO.

Give me a way to as easily neutralize your shooting and we'll call it even.

Until then, I hope you like Rowboat gunlines, because that's what serious marines players have to do.

How about Deep Strike and Transports for your gun-equipped infantry.

Also, actually using mobility to outflank cover positions and cripple enemy units, that works really well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, Power Armor CQC, and, in fact, CQC as the core of a list, can die and stay dead, IMO.

What's your issue with CC? It's a hell of a lot more interesting than gunlines that stay stock still 48" away and just roll dice.

I can see why CC isn't very appealing, since once you cross no-man's land you either wipe your opponent or get wiped. It's another thing with the game where it lacks decent counterplay other than "back up and shoot".

And this is coming from someone with 40 khorne berserkers.

Precisely. It comes down to a big ball of dice rolling.


As far as decent counterplay, Gunlines are usually pretty static, and lose some of their resilience for advancing. Securing objective out from under them is good counterplay, and for IG at least using precise strikes to cripple their support works great. I've done this with Immolators and Meltaguns, so it's definitely do-able. Keep in mind that IG tanks really have half the advertised wounds compared to an SM tank, since they at best re-roll 1's and naturally have gak ballistic skill; once they drop to 5+ they're fairly safe to ignore.

RogueApiary wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
All I see here are Marine players salty that their "anti everything 7ed death star lists" fail in 8th due to low model count being a hindrance.

I mean, if your facing a horde army you equip it with anti horde weapons. Complaining to us that your anti elite killer units don't work as well against hordes is going to cause you to get some stick.

There are no anti-horde weapons though.

Bad ones.

Twin AC
Quad HB rapiers
Hurricane Bolters
C-beam cannons
Grav flux bombards
Twin kheres assault cannons

Mortars
Punisher cannons
Gatling Cannons

Tesla
Massed gauss fire

Heavy Phosphor Blasters

5+ weirdboyz using d6 smites followed by a da jump charge

Warpfire? (honestly cant remember the name) Bolters

Every single one of the above has shredded my infantry, Conscripts or no, and I'm probably missing a few. Most of those are available to Marines, and even more are available via allies.

All of which are more point efficient towards Marines and Skitarii and Necrons?

None of those things work vs IG. They fill their entire DZ for the explicit purpose of turning off all those things. There is no flank. There is no DS area. There are transports, and that's it.

Rofl, don't bother deploying. Just keep data cards in front, roll dice back and forth , and keep a tally. Cuts out good deal of time anyway.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, Power Armor CQC, and, in fact, CQC as the core of a list, can die and stay dead, IMO.

What's your issue with CC? It's a hell of a lot more interesting than gunlines that stay stock still 48" away and just roll dice.

I can see why CC isn't very appealing, since once you cross no-man's land you either wipe your opponent or get wiped. It's another thing with the game where it lacks decent counterplay other than "back up and shoot".

And this is coming from someone with 40 khorne berserkers.

This is an identical situation to long range static gunlines, except you have the option to back out of CC. The only counterplay to a basilisk is to kill it.

Martel732 wrote:
None of those things work vs IG. They fill their entire DZ for the explicit purpose of turning off all those things. There is no flank. There is no DS area. There are transports, and that's it.

Umm, what do you mean? It's not hard to move to a position where a ruin no longer obscures an artillery tank, especially with 12" of move. I literally cannot believe it is impossible to move a Razorback to a position where it can see a Manticore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, Power Armor CQC, and, in fact, CQC as the core of a list, can die and stay dead, IMO.

What's your issue with CC? It's a hell of a lot more interesting than gunlines that stay stock still 48" away and just roll dice.

I can see why CC isn't very appealing, since once you cross no-man's land you either wipe your opponent or get wiped. It's another thing with the game where it lacks decent counterplay other than "back up and shoot".

And this is coming from someone with 40 khorne berserkers.

This is an identical situation to long range static gunlines, except you have the option to back out of CC. The only counterplay to a basilisk is to kill it.

Or cripple it.


Or hide in a transport. Or not be on the board until it's time for you to do your thing, etc. etc. etc. Against Khorne Bezerkers/Genestealers/Boyz, all there is to do is "shoot it and back up". Note that a significant amount of counterplay to ranged gunlines involves using LoS blocking terrain and circumventing the use of LoS blocking terrain, whereas CQC is terrain independent, especially because terrain is no longer even remotely a hinderance for chargers.

Basilisk are crap anyway.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, Power Armor CQC, and, in fact, CQC as the core of a list, can die and stay dead, IMO.

What's your issue with CC? It's a hell of a lot more interesting than gunlines that stay stock still 48" away and just roll dice.

Yeah versus your army of CC guys spending all their action to charge forward across the table, wiping out my unit on the charge, consolidating into my next unit who you then wipe out on my turn. Or my guys run away (assuming the people whining about fall back don't manage to get it nerfed in the future) and shoot at half their normal ability, unless you were successfully able to surround even one of my guys and then I can't. Either way you roll a bucketload of dice with your CC unit and I remove models. And don't get me started about how much more miserable it was in past editions.

Much fun. Much interesting. It takes so much tactics to race across the board and charge into CC combat. And yeah. Straight castling gunlines are just as boring.

I blame GW for making victory by straight tabling a thing. Objectives should always be more important than straight killing your enemy in my opinion, and objectives need to be made interesting to play with.

"Sir we killed all the chaos dudes!" "did you stop them summoning the planet killer?" "Uh, no. We forgot about that."

Boom.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
So, with regards to the 250 point CQC unit being "turned off" by the Conscripts, how do you think I feel about my artillery tanks and line tanks being "turned off" by CQC units?


That's how the strategy of the game works. Part of your goal is find a way to efficiently "turn off" enemy units and neutralize their contribution. Conscripts allow me to neutralize the threat your CQC units present to my tanks, without having to destroy them, which is inherently much more efficient that just trying to out-shoot/out-fight them, since there are a great many easy ways to neutralize just shooting it full of lead.



Also, Power Armor CQC, and, in fact, CQC as the core of a list, can die and stay dead, IMO.

Give me a way to as easily neutralize your shooting and we'll call it even.

Until then, I hope you like Rowboat gunlines, because that's what serious marines players have to do.

How about Deep Strike and Transports for your gun-equipped infantry.

Also, actually using mobility to outflank cover positions and cripple enemy units, that works really well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, Power Armor CQC, and, in fact, CQC as the core of a list, can die and stay dead, IMO.

What's your issue with CC? It's a hell of a lot more interesting than gunlines that stay stock still 48" away and just roll dice.

I can see why CC isn't very appealing, since once you cross no-man's land you either wipe your opponent or get wiped. It's another thing with the game where it lacks decent counterplay other than "back up and shoot".

And this is coming from someone with 40 khorne berserkers.

Precisely. It comes down to a big ball of dice rolling.


As far as decent counterplay, Gunlines are usually pretty static, and lose some of their resilience for advancing. Securing objective out from under them is good counterplay, and for IG at least using precise strikes to cripple their support works great. I've done this with Immolators and Meltaguns, so it's definitely do-able. Keep in mind that IG tanks really have half the advertised wounds compared to an SM tank, since they at best re-roll 1's and naturally have gak ballistic skill; once they drop to 5+ they're fairly safe to ignore.

Your advice reeks of someone that hasn't seen a Conscript squad. At all.

 argonak wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, Power Armor CQC, and, in fact, CQC as the core of a list, can die and stay dead, IMO.

What's your issue with CC? It's a hell of a lot more interesting than gunlines that stay stock still 48" away and just roll dice.

Yeah versus your army of CC guys spending all their action to charge forward across the table, wiping out my unit on the charge, consolidating into my next unit who you then wipe out on my turn. Or my guys run away (assuming the people whining about fall back don't manage to get it nerfed in the future) and shoot at half their normal ability, unless you were successfully able to surround even one of my guys and then I can't. Either way you roll a bucketload of dice with your CC unit and I remove models. And don't get me started about how much more miserable it was in past editions.

Much fun. Much interesting. It takes so much tactics to race across the board and charge into CC combat. And yeah. Straight castling gunlines are just as boring.

I blame GW for making victory by straight tabling a thing. Objectives should always be more important than straight killing your enemy in my opinion, and objectives need to be made interesting to play with.

"Sir we killed all the chaos dudes!" "did you stop them summoning the planet killer?" "Uh, no. We forgot about that."

Boom.

Uh, if you couldn't tell by my avatar I play Thousand Sons. We're a midrange shooting army, the only CC threat we have is Magnus (which is of course a very large threat). Frankly the amount of tactics required in Warhammer is fairly limited, but at least CC armies interact with the board in a way that Guard doesn't have to.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
This is an identical situation to long range static gunlines, except you have the option to back out of CC. The only counterplay to a basilisk is to kill it.

Maybe two identical gunlines, but ranged weapons have long ranges (36+") Medium Range (around 24") and Close Range (6-18") and they generally offer different counterplay depending on the other army. Even against extremely long ranged gunlines, the counterplay is to try to outfox your opponent by intentionally offering up certain units to get blown up so you can get what you really need to take them out into position (medium range and close range have even more counterplay as trying to keep them outside of their range while inside of your own threat range gives you some challenge).

But regardless of what kind of CC army you play, the general idea is always "Close the distance, win game". Again, I run 40 Khorne Berserkers and something like 48 Genestealers (separate armies ofc). Different units, maybe different delivery methods, but overall the same gameplay and end result.

A Lord Commissar cannot hurt a standard Ld 7 Infantry Squad with 9 models (full squad with hvy wpns team) compared to a nine man squad without a Lord Commissar and the same initial dice roll. The times when the results of two failed checks (where the second failed check is a worse result) are higher than a single failed check the Ld 7 squad is wiped out anyway with the original roll. Some math guy could probably put a curve together, but I took Poli Sci...

He can only hurt a ten man squad compared to a ten man squad without a Lord Commissar if you lose 6 casualties and roll a 4 followed by a 5 or 6. That's a pretty specific and unlikely event (of course, that is all that will happen to me now). At 5 casualties or less the squad with the Lord Commissar is either better off (by one or two saved models) or no worse with the same initial rolls. Usually, you are saving 1 or 2 models per check which is pretty good if you are saving Scions, Veterans or the Lascannon and Plasmagun in an Infantry Squad. At 7 casualties or more the normal infantry are wiped out with the same initial morale roll as the first failed Lord Commissar check.

A normal Commissar does have a few times when he can hurt a Ld 7 squad because of how the rule mechanic works. Its an unlikely outcome, but it can still deter folks. There is a bigger issue with a normal Commissar (who is Ld 8) and Ld 8 Troops (like with a Standard around). He can be a bigger potential hazard then since he is not increasing their leadership and the distribution of results means more chances of worse outcomes than without the Commissar. A Lord Commissar also has a few times when he can hurt Ld 8 Troops. After suffering 5 casualties, rolling a 5 could then result in rolling a 6 and suffering 1 extra casualty than a 5 without the Lord in a Ld 8 squad. After 6 casualties if you roll a 4 and then follow with a 5 or 6 its worse than the original 4. Not very likely, but there it is.

Its gets more weird when you cannot pass the test after losing 10 or more models and you have a large squad - like the Conscripts. Even then, its on the edge cases that you lose more because of the Commissar and then the loss isn't that much because of the Leadership boost.

It is an inelegant rule fix, but I am keeping my Lord Commissars for my regular Infantry, Veterans and Scions. I think that they can do a better fix than this one, but its not a disaster either.

Cheers,