Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
tneva82 wrote: Ah another Guillimann player who thinks it's okay I'm broken but heaven forbid others might have good codex. They need to get nerf bat swung wildly hitting wrong targets like here(conscripts were problem. Not commisar. Now you eliminated commisars).
Ahhh Guard players with a chip on the shoulder about Marines, anyway nope wrong answer not a marine player try again.
Actually Commisars we're the issue they should not be any way to flat out ignore a whole sub section of the rules that reliably. It was a bad rule that should have been picked up in the what they laughably called play testing.
Commisars still benefit the low leadership units such as Conscripts and the Abhumans, the regular troops have other options that benefit them. That It now takes more effort than sticking 1 30pt model in the middle of the army is probably intended and a good change.
You do know whining about somebody else's codex when you blatently have the best codex by a large margin, makes you look a little silly and that you are trying to deflect attention from your overpowered codex in classic whataboutry style.
I'm curious what results or data you have to back up the assertion that Guard are the best codex by a large margin. It seems to be a common claim in threads like this, but the fact remains that as yet we have seen nothing to indicate that post-nerfs, there is anything in the Guard codex powerful enough to significantly warp the tournament scene.
It doesn't make a ton of sense to complain that the units and combinations that currently ARE impacting tournament balance in a significant manner should be nerfed before additional elements of the Guard codex when all we have as proof of the Guard's overpowered-ness is your and others say so.
What are the guard units that we have seen appearing in tournament lists?
-Conscripts (orders nerf, commissar nerf ties in, squad size nerf)
-Commissars (Summary execution nerf)
-MT Command Sqauds (Plasma for BS3+ nerf, limit per commander nerf)
-MT scion squads (Plasma for BS3+ nerf)
-Mortar teams (Base cost nerf)
At this point we're down to just Taurox primes, Manticores, Primaris Psykers and Earthshaker carriages which have not seen nerfs for units that we've seen in any significant capacity from the IG at tournaments. Every data point we have (which is admittedly not many) points to the influence of IG going DOWN, not UP, post codex and even pre the latest nerfs.
It would seem to be completely justified to want to take a serious look at something like, I don't know, the actual army composition that's been dominating the recent couple of tournaments, i.e. Magnus and Friends Monster Mash style lists?
But that's harder to justify, because people don't actually care about tournaments. They just like to use them to justify what they want to see changed - people actually want to see their buddy's army who they play with every week casually to get reduced in power, because they're having trouble winning against them.
If you want IG back to where they were in 7th, please, just say so. Don't enact a charade of caring about tournament balance or game mechanic balance (seriously, you're complaining that IG could turn off morale when Tyranids and now Iyanden can just do that, army-wide, for far less effort?) if you just want to be able to roll across the table straight into the gunline and wipe out leman russes in a single round because you brought 1 power fist sergeant. Just say that. Otherwise, yeah, it is time to talk about the actually imbalanced combinations elsewhere unless we actually see IG performing at tournaments.
Seriously why do guard players have such a hate boner for marines that they consider everyone who disagrees with them as a Marine player, can you point on the creed mini where the bad marine touched you?
Not sure I can take you seriously, as just above it is pointed out to one of your frothy compatriots that dominating in attendance is not the same as actually winning.
...Can you show me in my post where I "considered anyone who disagrees with me a marine player"? Is there a good internet argument fallacy buzzword for when someone wants to assign you internet argument fallacy buzzwords to dismiss your argument that you did not actually commit? I think I said the word "power fist" at some point - was that politically incorrect and calling out Space Marines? Should I genericise that to "strength multiplying sergeant melee weapon" for you, would that make you feel less oppressed?
I am talking about BOTH dominating in attendance AND actually winning. The top army builds currently are all Chaos lists. And it's not like Magnus+Tzeentch Daemons is a particularly fluff-shattering ally combo that you can wave your hand and dismiss it as "chaos soup".
Unit1126PLL wrote: Yes, but if it was a 20 man unit with 1 model left, then you get 19 more models that you didn't have in your list.
If that's not getting more models for free I don't know what is.
Frankly I agree and would rather this sort of mechanic not exist at all, but at least with Tide of Traitors/Reanimation Protocol/whatever there's some counterplay by wiping the unit.
the_scotsman wrote: If you want IG back to where they were in 7th, please, just say so. Don't enact a charade of caring about tournament balance or game mechanic balance (seriously, you're complaining that IG could turn off morale when Tyranids and now Iyanden can just do that, army-wide, for far less effort?) if you just want to be able to roll across the table straight into the gunline and wipe out leman russes in a single round because you brought 1 power fist sergeant. Just say that. Otherwise, yeah, it is time to talk about the actually imbalanced combinations elsewhere unless we actually see IG performing at tournaments.
Ugh, is it possible to have a discussion about anything these days without going to extremes. The IG book was very powerful, people were understandably concerned. I play IG and wanted to see conscripts nerfed. Turning off morale for elite troops like Eldar is hardly the same thing as turning it off for a cheap horde, especially when it means giving up -1 to be hit. Tyranids have always revolved around synapse, it's as much a part of their army as big tanks are for Guard.
IG are still extremely powerful. The FAQ was inelegant, hopefully it will be refined. At least GW has shown the willingness to adjust, even if they still appear to lack expert guidance. That's why soup lists tend to be more problematic, too many moving parts. If soup lists went away, Guard would likely be the top army.
Point one: It's not the same to turn off morale for those super-elite eldar infantry (like Guardians, at what...6ppm, and aspects, at 12-20 usually) as it is to turn off morale for a cheap chaff horde! That would be imbalanced and overpowered!
Point two: Tyranids have always been able to turn off morale for their cheap chaff hordes, that's their mechanic, and it's been balanced around!
Point three: if allies were removed, Guard would be top dogs in tournaments.
Disregarding the fact that point 1 and point 2 directly contradict one another, and the fact that Guard have always always always had the ability to mitigate morale with buffing characters, can anyone anywhere at any time give me any kind of proof that point three is true, because everyone is REAL fond of saying it. Because the number of Guard lists we have actually seen at tournaments without allies since the release of 8th is pretty dang slim, while the number of lists that are entirely Space Marines or Ynnari are much, much higher.
If you actually have data to back this up, show it, because I am very curious to know how you'd expect pure guard to win against a Guilliman parking lot list, Ynnari harlequins, or a craftworld Alaitoc list that can take a majority of its basic units with -2 to hit. How is a Guard artillery gunline going to be oppressively overpowering hitting on 6s with most of its weapons?
Just wanna point out the irony that you demand data but then claim that pure guard is obviously not going to be able to beat an army that won't exist until Saturday.
Are you familiar with the idea of a "null hypothesis?" the claim being made here is "Guard would be dominating tournaments if allies ("soup lists") were removed". Given how we have just had a solid nerf to almost everything we've seen from Guard in tournaments so far, AND we've never seen pure guard lists performing significantly well while we have seen pure lists from other factions much more commonly, AND we're just about to introduce a new codex whose most immediately obviously powerful subfaction build is a gunline built to counter gunline lists, I am going to contest the claim and require some sort of evidence be presented, yeah.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/25 13:59:46
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
You can't possibly believe this is true. Chaos has been highly competitive and certainly has some problem units that need to be addressed but for pretty much every major tournament one form of Imperium or another has taking home the gold.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Yes, but if it was a 20 man unit with 1 model left, then you get 19 more models that you didn't have in your list.
If that's not getting more models for free I don't know what is.
Frankly I agree and would rather this sort of mechanic not exist at all, but at least with Tide of Traitors/Reanimation Protocol/whatever there's some counterplay by wiping the unit.
the_scotsman wrote: If you want IG back to where they were in 7th, please, just say so. Don't enact a charade of caring about tournament balance or game mechanic balance (seriously, you're complaining that IG could turn off morale when Tyranids and now Iyanden can just do that, army-wide, for far less effort?) if you just want to be able to roll across the table straight into the gunline and wipe out leman russes in a single round because you brought 1 power fist sergeant. Just say that. Otherwise, yeah, it is time to talk about the actually imbalanced combinations elsewhere unless we actually see IG performing at tournaments.
Ugh, is it possible to have a discussion about anything these days without going to extremes. The IG book was very powerful, people were understandably concerned. I play IG and wanted to see conscripts nerfed. Turning off morale for elite troops like Eldar is hardly the same thing as turning it off for a cheap horde, especially when it means giving up -1 to be hit. Tyranids have always revolved around synapse, it's as much a part of their army as big tanks are for Guard.
IG are still extremely powerful. The FAQ was inelegant, hopefully it will be refined. At least GW has shown the willingness to adjust, even if they still appear to lack expert guidance. That's why soup lists tend to be more problematic, too many moving parts. If soup lists went away, Guard would likely be the top army.
Point one: It's not the same to turn off morale for those super-elite eldar infantry (like Guardians, at what...6ppm, and aspects, at 12-20 usually) as it is to turn off morale for a cheap chaff horde! That would be imbalanced and overpowered!
Point two: Tyranids have always been able to turn off morale for their cheap chaff hordes, that's their mechanic, and it's been balanced around!
Point three: if allies were removed, Guard would be top dogs in tournaments.
Disregarding the fact that point 1 and point 2 directly contradict one another, and the fact that Guard have always always always had the ability to mitigate morale with buffing characters, can anyone anywhere at any time give me any kind of proof that point three is true, because everyone is REAL fond of saying it. Because the number of Guard lists we have actually seen at tournaments without allies since the release of 8th is pretty dang slim, while the number of lists that are entirely Space Marines or Ynnari are much, much higher.
If you actually have data to back this up, show it, because I am very curious to know how you'd expect pure guard to win against a Guilliman parking lot list, Ynnari harlequins, or a craftworld Alaitoc list that can take a majority of its basic units with -2 to hit. How is a Guard artillery gunline going to be oppressively overpowering hitting on 6s with most of its weapons?
Just wanna point out the irony that you demand data but then claim that pure guard is obviously not going to be able to beat an army that won't exist until Saturday.
It's true the alaitoc list won't exist till Saturday the others do. The issue is there is a broad assertion that there is overwhelming AM dominance with very little proof there actually is. What's more most of the supposedly amazing AM lists are chock full of FW nonsense which is not a reason to do anything to the codex (or index) units. We see various soup lists, which do use conscripts but are hardly a guard only issue and frankly may not change substantially with a conscript/commissar nerf. We see chaos and chaos demons. We see aeldari/ynnari. We see marines of both Guilliman/non guilliman varieties. We see some AM. If anything the tournament winning lists suggest to me we should be concerned about chaos demons (who are winning pre codex), aeldari/ynnari (who are winning pre codex and pre point cost reductions), and FW (whose elysians/earthshaker carriages/ maleific lords are very highly represented and balanced out of sync with the codex releases). Furthermore there should be concern that admech and grey knights may be undertuned.
You can't possibly believe this is true. Chaos has been highly competitive and certainly has some problem units that need to be addressed but for pretty much every major tournament one form of Imperium or another has taking home the gold.
I realize the original author is grossly overstating performance of Chaos, but "Top army builds" does not necessarily mean the same as "tournament winning lists."
I read a statistic about the composition of Grand Tournament armies. It was something like 25 Imperial, 14 Chaos, then Xenos. This is a single tournament, but it's consistent with the armchair analysis I have done of other tournament rosters.
So, competitively, I don't think Chaos is a) consistently taking 1st place at major tournaments or b) occupying space as the most popular army. It's very nice to be perceived that way after so many editions where we were not top dog, but I really can't agree with the analysis.
Guard has been out for 2 weeks. How many tournaments do they need to win in that time before people are allowed to be concerned by basic math on unit efficiency?
(also note they won 1 major tournament in those 2 weeks)
Yes the indexes have been out longer but I don't think a lot of people have been buying 200 model armies based on a temporary list.
People are concerned because of looking at the math on the codex, not because they are sweeping the field. Its way to early for that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/25 14:15:18
Ordana wrote: Guard has been out for 2 weeks. How many tournaments do they need to win in that time before people are allowed to be concerned by basic math on unit efficiency?
(also note they won 1 major tournament in those 2 weeks)
Yes the indexes have been out longer but I don't think a lot of people have been buying 200 model armies based on a temporary list.
You know, comments like this bug me.
I'm a defense wargamer by profession, and the difference between a wargame and a simulation (e.g. the difference between what I do and what someone with a computer simulator does) is that wargames often provide insights that simulators can't precisely because math doesn't actually help you determine the outcome of a wargame at all.
Ordana wrote: Guard has been out for 2 weeks. How many tournaments do they need to win in that time before people are allowed to be concerned by basic math on unit efficiency?
(also note they won 1 major tournament in those 2 weeks)
Yes the indexes have been out longer but I don't think a lot of people have been buying 200 model armies based on a temporary list.
It's like religion. There are the Mathodites and the Performlicans. The Mathodites measure quality based on statistical averages. The Performlicans want to see how that math plays out on the table before forming judgement.
In reality, what matters most to people is how tough that army was the last time they played them.
To answer your question, it will take as long as it must for both sides to get worn out from arguing. Then more reasonable people who don't care about absolutes will be able to have their say.
the_scotsman wrote: If you want IG back to where they were in 7th, please, just say so. Don't enact a charade of caring about tournament balance or game mechanic balance (seriously, you're complaining that IG could turn off morale when Tyranids and now Iyanden can just do that, army-wide, for far less effort?) if you just want to be able to roll across the table straight into the gunline and wipe out leman russes in a single round because you brought 1 power fist sergeant
It may have been subconscious but you were letting your prejudice show
To answer some of your other points.
Yes guard always could largely mitigate morale in previous editions but this is 8th and unlike other editions anti horde weapons have been gutted to the point of uselessness for most armies. Which led to conscripts that were mathematical impossible for most armies to kill during a whole game.
This combined with massive amounts of los ignoring firepower were a recipe for disaster, which the other player could do very little about in most cases.
The codex is by far the most well rounded and interesting as far as internal balance goes, external balance against previously released codexs was wayyyyy out of whack.
Best chaff - yes
Best DS units - yes
Best artillery - yes
Best Tanks - yes
Best Super Heavy- yes
Best faction and sub faction rules - yes
Fastest infantry - yes
Shootiest infantry - yes
Toughest infantry - yes
Best snipers - yes
The list goes on pretty much with the only thing lacking being there special characters being good but not spectacular and close combat but even then being far from the worst.
If you cannot make a good list out of the IG codex then there really is not much hope for you. I
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/25 14:34:28
Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis
the_scotsman wrote: If you want IG back to where they were in 7th, please, just say so. Don't enact a charade of caring about tournament balance or game mechanic balance (seriously, you're complaining that IG could turn off morale when Tyranids and now Iyanden can just do that, army-wide, for far less effort?) if you just want to be able to roll across the table straight into the gunline and wipe out leman russes in a single round because you brought 1 power fist sergeant
It may have been subconscious but you were letting your prejudice show
To answer some of your other points.
Yes guard always could largely mitigate morale in previous editions but this is 8th and unlike other editions anti horde weapons have been gutted to the point of uselessness for most armies. Which led to conscripts that were mathematical impossible for most armies to kill during a whole game.
This combined with massive amounts of los ignoring firepower were a recipe for disaster, which the other player could do very little about in most cases.
The codex is by far the most well rounded and interesting as far as internal balance goes, external balance against previously released codexs was wayyyyy out of whack.
Best chaff - yes
Best DS units - yes
Best artillery - yes
Best Tanks - yes
Best Super Heavy- yes
Best faction and sub faction rules - yes
Fastest infantry - yes
Shootiest infantry - yes
Toughest infantry - yes
Best snipers - yes
The list goes on pretty much with the only thing lacking being there special characters being good but not spectacular and close combat but even then being far from the worst.
If you cannot make a good list out of the IG codex then there really is not much hope for you. I
You are making some pretty broad assertions about best x, and treating them like fact with 0 to back it up. Like if you want to argue those points great, but you're just saying they have best x. I can assert all sorts of things but with not even an argument (much less statistical data) to back that up it's pretty meaningless.
Considering his argument started by accusing the_scotsman of having subconscious prejudice on a mere forum post, facts are probably never going to matter in this debate. And people wonder why no one can take "Guard is OP" seriously.
@ the_scotsman: For what it's worth, you've had the most sense out of all of this (and all involved should remember he hasn't been completely defending guard either and have pointed out problems with them as well). Just want to voice that I do agree with you and not with some of the insanities that have been posted here.
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
the_scotsman wrote: If you want IG back to where they were in 7th, please, just say so. Don't enact a charade of caring about tournament balance or game mechanic balance (seriously, you're complaining that IG could turn off morale when Tyranids and now Iyanden can just do that, army-wide, for far less effort?) if you just want to be able to roll across the table straight into the gunline and wipe out leman russes in a single round because you brought 1 power fist sergeant
It may have been subconscious but you were letting your prejudice show
To answer some of your other points.
Yes guard always could largely mitigate morale in previous editions but this is 8th and unlike other editions anti horde weapons have been gutted to the point of uselessness for most armies. Which led to conscripts that were mathematical impossible for most armies to kill during a whole game.
This combined with massive amounts of los ignoring firepower were a recipe for disaster, which the other player could do very little about in most cases.
The codex is by far the most well rounded and interesting as far as internal balance goes, external balance against previously released codexs was wayyyyy out of whack.
Best chaff - yes
Best DS units - yes
Best artillery - yes
Best Tanks - yes
Best Super Heavy- yes
Best faction and sub faction rules - yes
Fastest infantry - yes
Shootiest infantry - yes
Toughest infantry - yes
Best snipers - yes
The list goes on pretty much with the only thing lacking being there special characters being good but not spectacular and close combat but even then being far from the worst.
If you cannot make a good list out of the IG codex then there really is not much hope for you. I
You are making some pretty broad assertions about best x, and treating them like fact with 0 to back it up. Like if you want to argue those points great, but you're just saying they have best x. I can assert all sorts of things but with not even an argument (much less statistical data) to back that up it's pretty meaningless.
Dismissing his post is taking it a little far.
I think what the author may have meant to say is: good / effective unit. The IG have some great tools at their disposal and it's possible to build a great list with these items. I agree with that point.
Best chaff - yes Yes.
Best DS units - yes Not really, unless by 'best' you mean 'shootiest' and you're talking about the index. Happy to go into more detail.
Best artillery - yes Yes, as it's been for ~8 editions now.
Best Tanks - yes Arguable, but for now (until Hammerheads get buffed), yes.
Best Super Heavy- yes Arguable. I would argue Mechanicus got the best superheavy in terms of the Warlord Titan.
Best faction and sub faction rules - yes No. Where's my -1 to hit? Where's my fall back and shoot? Can you imagine a -1 to-hit Leman Russ?
Fastest infantry - yes Sisters of Battle would like a word with you. And they can even shoot too.
Shootiest infantry - yes Arguable. By mass, yes. By quality, no.
Toughest infantry - yes Arguable. By points, sure. By models, certainly not.
Best snipers - yes Arguable; the Vindicare Assassin is Officio Assassinorum not Astra Militarum
Best chaff - yes
Best DS units - yes
Best artillery - yes
Best Tanks - yes
Best Super Heavy- yes
Best faction and sub faction rules - yes
Fastest infantry - yes
Shootiest infantry - yes
Toughest infantry - yes
Best snipers - yes
The list goes on pretty much with the only thing lacking being there special characters being good but not spectacular and close combat but even then being far from the worst.
If you cannot make a good list out of the IG codex then there really is not much hope for you. I
Best chaff - Chaos Cultists (Who coincidentally don't pay for reinforcement points on their stratagem, and have access to morale auto-pass)
Best DS units - Space Marines (As it probably should be)
Best artillery - Astra Militarum (Can't think of another faction it would be thematic for, so this isn't a suprise)
Best Tanks - Space Marines (Between the point efficiency of the pred to the over the top power of the repulsor, land raider and sicarian)
Best Super Heavy- Chaos, space marine in second
Best faction and sub faction rules - Space Marines, although Eldar are about to give them a run for thier money
Fastest infantry - Still Tyranids. Not that move distance means much in 8th
Shootiest infantry - Should be AM, but Space Marines are ruling it right now with their expanded weapon options, better BS, and the point efficient beauty of TAC marines
Toughest infantry - Have you tried to kill a space marine recently? Some lists I'm facing are getting 2+ armor saves, not counting many support models having invul saves. They are outdoing the Eldar right now and that's insane given they are cheaper than eldar.
Best snipers - Space Marine Scouts still rule that roost, but Astra Militarum still has cheaper snipers.
In addition (since you left them out):
Best Melee Infantry: Tyranids (primarily because they can shed so many causalities in their 30+ model units to actually get to the enemy line)
Best Support: Ultra Marines (Thanks, Gulliman)
Best Heavy Suppoert: AdMech (those giant robots are no joke)
Most Flexibility: Space Marines
Best Relics: Space Marines
Best Codex so far: Space Marines
Worst Codex so far: Grey Knights
I think each faction needs tweaking and that conscripts needed an adjustment of some kind (nerfing another random model from orbit seems like the wrong way to go about it), but that list was just terrible.
Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.
the_scotsman wrote: If you want IG back to where they were in 7th, please, just say so. Don't enact a charade of caring about tournament balance or game mechanic balance (seriously, you're complaining that IG could turn off morale when Tyranids and now Iyanden can just do that, army-wide, for far less effort?) if you just want to be able to roll across the table straight into the gunline and wipe out leman russes in a single round because you brought 1 power fist sergeant
It may have been subconscious but you were letting your prejudice show
To answer some of your other points.
Yes guard always could largely mitigate morale in previous editions but this is 8th and unlike other editions anti horde weapons have been gutted to the point of uselessness for most armies. Which led to conscripts that were mathematical impossible for most armies to kill during a whole game.
This combined with massive amounts of los ignoring firepower were a recipe for disaster, which the other player could do very little about in most cases.
The codex is by far the most well rounded and interesting as far as internal balance goes, external balance against previously released codexs was wayyyyy out of whack.
Best chaff - yes
Best DS units - yes
Best artillery - yes
Best Tanks - yes
Best Super Heavy- yes
Best faction and sub faction rules - yes
Fastest infantry - yes
Shootiest infantry - yes
Toughest infantry - yes
Best snipers - yes
The list goes on pretty much with the only thing lacking being there special characters being good but not spectacular and close combat but even then being far from the worst.
If you cannot make a good list out of the IG codex then there really is not much hope for you. I
You are making some pretty broad assertions about best x, and treating them like fact with 0 to back it up. Like if you want to argue those points great, but you're just saying they have best x. I can assert all sorts of things but with not even an argument (much less statistical data) to back that up it's pretty meaningless.
Dismissing his post is taking it a little far.
I think what the author may have meant to say is: good / effective unit. The IG have some great tools at their disposal and it's possible to build a great list with these items. I agree with that point.
No dismissing his post is exactly what should be done. What has been asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. If he chooses to provide a more supported version of this rather than broadly asserting it as truth, I'll gladly respond to that. Does AM have good and effective units in those roles sure, but that should be the goal for most armies, but that isn't what he said and frankly I find it a mistake to say oh well he made a hyperbolic statement therefore he must have meant something more reasonable and the conclusion drawn from the hyperbolic statement should be accepted.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/25 15:09:33
the_scotsman wrote: If you want IG back to where they were in 7th, please, just say so. Don't enact a charade of caring about tournament balance or game mechanic balance (seriously, you're complaining that IG could turn off morale when Tyranids and now Iyanden can just do that, army-wide, for far less effort?) if you just want to be able to roll across the table straight into the gunline and wipe out leman russes in a single round because you brought 1 power fist sergeant
It may have been subconscious but you were letting your prejudice show
To answer some of your other points.
Yes guard always could largely mitigate morale in previous editions but this is 8th and unlike other editions anti horde weapons have been gutted to the point of uselessness for most armies. Which led to conscripts that were mathematical impossible for most armies to kill during a whole game.
This combined with massive amounts of los ignoring firepower were a recipe for disaster, which the other player could do very little about in most cases.
The codex is by far the most well rounded and interesting as far as internal balance goes, external balance against previously released codexs was wayyyyy out of whack.
Best chaff - yes
Best DS units - yes
Best artillery - yes
Best Tanks - yes
Best Super Heavy- yes
Best faction and sub faction rules - yes
Fastest infantry - yes
Shootiest infantry - yes
Toughest infantry - yes
Best snipers - yes
The list goes on pretty much with the only thing lacking being there special characters being good but not spectacular and close combat but even then being far from the worst.
If you cannot make a good list out of the IG codex then there really is not much hope for you. I
You are making some pretty broad assertions about best x, and treating them like fact with 0 to back it up. Like if you want to argue those points great, but you're just saying they have best x. I can assert all sorts of things but with not even an argument (much less statistical data) to back that up it's pretty meaningless.
Dismissing his post is taking it a little far.
I think what the author may have meant to say is: good / effective unit. The IG have some great tools at their disposal and it's possible to build a great list with these items. I agree with that point.
No dismissing his post is exactly what should be done. What has been asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. If he chooses to provide a more supported version of this rather than broadly asserting it as truth, I'll gladly respond to that. Does AM have good and effective units in those roles sure, but that should be the goal for most armies, but that isn't what he said and frankly I find it a mistake to say oh well he made a hyperbolic statement therefore he must have meant something more reasonable and the conclusion drawn from the hyperbolic statement should be accepted.
Yeah, but... what passes for evidence in this thread is very dodgy and there is a lot of hyperbole. Applying a standard like that means the whole thread can be ignored.
I agree with his assertion at the level that IG has the tools to make a good army. I think that what he was trying to say, when you ignore the rhetoric about anything being the best in the game.
You don't need the best units to make a winning army. You need a combination of good units that serve the right roles. Is anyone trying to say IG don't have the tools to make a good army?
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: Considering his argument started by accusing the_scotsman of having subconscious prejudice on a mere forum post, facts are probably never going to matter in this debate. And people wonder why no one can take "Guard is OP" seriously.
@ the_scotsman: For what it's worth, you've had the most sense out of all of this (and all involved should remember he hasn't been completely defending guard either and have pointed out problems with them as well). Just want to voice that I do agree with you and not with some of the insanities that have been posted here.
Spoiler:
I don't DIlbert often, but it's oddly prescient today.
the_scotsman wrote: If you want IG back to where they were in 7th, please, just say so. Don't enact a charade of caring about tournament balance or game mechanic balance (seriously, you're complaining that IG could turn off morale when Tyranids and now Iyanden can just do that, army-wide, for far less effort?) if you just want to be able to roll across the table straight into the gunline and wipe out leman russes in a single round because you brought 1 power fist sergeant
It may have been subconscious but you were letting your prejudice show
To answer some of your other points.
Yes guard always could largely mitigate morale in previous editions but this is 8th and unlike other editions anti horde weapons have been gutted to the point of uselessness for most armies. Which led to conscripts that were mathematical impossible for most armies to kill during a whole game.
This combined with massive amounts of los ignoring firepower were a recipe for disaster, which the other player could do very little about in most cases.
The codex is by far the most well rounded and interesting as far as internal balance goes, external balance against previously released codexs was wayyyyy out of whack.
Best chaff - yes
Best DS units - yes
Best artillery - yes
Best Tanks - yes
Best Super Heavy- yes
Best faction and sub faction rules - yes
Fastest infantry - yes
Shootiest infantry - yes
Toughest infantry - yes
Best snipers - yes
The list goes on pretty much with the only thing lacking being there special characters being good but not spectacular and close combat but even then being far from the worst.
If you cannot make a good list out of the IG codex then there really is not much hope for you. I
You are making some pretty broad assertions about best x, and treating them like fact with 0 to back it up. Like if you want to argue those points great, but you're just saying they have best x. I can assert all sorts of things but with not even an argument (much less statistical data) to back that up it's pretty meaningless.
Dismissing his post is taking it a little far.
I think what the author may have meant to say is: good / effective unit. The IG have some great tools at their disposal and it's possible to build a great list with these items. I agree with that point.
No dismissing his post is exactly what should be done. What has been asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. If he chooses to provide a more supported version of this rather than broadly asserting it as truth, I'll gladly respond to that. Does AM have good and effective units in those roles sure, but that should be the goal for most armies, but that isn't what he said and frankly I find it a mistake to say oh well he made a hyperbolic statement therefore he must have meant something more reasonable and the conclusion drawn from the hyperbolic statement should be accepted.
Yeah, but... what passes for evidence in this thread is very dodgy and there is a lot of hyperbole. Applying a standard like that means the whole thread can be ignored.
I agree with his assertion at the level that IG has the tools to make a good army. I think that what he was trying to say, when you ignore the rhetoric about anything being the best in the game.
You don't need the best units to make a winning army. You need a combination of good units that serve the right roles. Is anyone trying to say IG don't have the tools to make a good army?
At the least an argument as to why they're the best. That said look at the conclusion he drew. It's not just that IG have the tools to make a good army, it's that external balance is out of whack with all other releases codices.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/25 15:20:17
Darkagl1 wrote: At the least an argument as to why they're the best. That said look at the conclusion he drew. It's not just that IG have the tools to make a good army, it's that external balance is out of whack with all other releases codices.
Yeah, got it. Like I said, there's a kernel of truth in there and the original point was probably overstated.
Hard to believe everyone is so worked up over their precious new recruits and the rules for executing the cowards in the lot.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/25 15:27:22
Best chaff - yes
Best DS units - yes
Best artillery - yes
Best Tanks - yes
Best Super Heavy- yes
Best faction and sub faction rules - yes
Fastest infantry - yes
Shootiest infantry - yes
Toughest infantry - yes
Best snipers - yes
The list goes on pretty much with the only thing lacking being there special characters being good but not spectacular and close combat but even then being far from the worst.
If you cannot make a good list out of the IG codex then there really is not much hope for you. I
Best chaff - Chaos Cultists (Who coincidentally don't pay for reinforcement points on their stratagem, and have access to morale auto-pass)
Best DS units - Space Marines (As it probably should be)
Best artillery - Astra Militarum (Can't think of another faction it would be thematic for, so this isn't a suprise)
Best Tanks - Space Marines (Between the point efficiency of the pred to the over the top power of the repulsor, land raider and sicarian)
Best Super Heavy- Chaos, space marine in second
Best faction and sub faction rules - Space Marines, although Eldar are about to give them a run for thier money
Fastest infantry - Still Tyranids. Not that move distance means much in 8th
Shootiest infantry - Should be AM, but Space Marines are ruling it right now with their expanded weapon options, better BS, and the point efficient beauty of TAC marines
Toughest infantry - Have you tried to kill a space marine recently? Some lists I'm facing are getting 2+ armor saves, not counting many support models having invul saves. They are outdoing the Eldar right now and that's insane given they are cheaper than eldar.
Best snipers - Space Marine Scouts still rule that roost, but Astra Militarum still has cheaper snipers.
In addition (since you left them out):
Best Melee Infantry: Tyranids (primarily because they can shed so many causalities in their 30+ model units to actually get to the enemy line)
Best Support: Ultra Marines (Thanks, Gulliman)
Best Heavy Suppoert: AdMech (those giant robots are no joke)
Most Flexibility: Space Marines
Best Relics: Space Marines
Best Codex so far: Space Marines
Worst Codex so far: Grey Knights
I think each faction needs tweaking and that conscripts needed an adjustment of some kind (nerfing another random model from orbit seems like the wrong way to go about it), but that list was just terrible.
No less than your post, no evidence supports the Space Marines as best codex argument you are making. I would put them 3rd at the moment, maybe 4th. They are clearly behind IG and Chaos based on tournament results.
Cultists are not even the best Chaos chaff unit let alone the best chaff unit.
DS unit has been leveled out with the guard changes, to the point where it is close with SM and Guard, same with tanks
Faction sub faction rules, clearly not marines, CSM have the same or better tactics, and better stratagems. Guard is also clearly better as their tactics apply to more models in faction.
IG infantry shoot far better than SM for their points. But sisters probably top this.
Toughness is relative, it takes 12 S4 AP 0 hits to kill a single marine in cover. it takes 9 to kill the same points worth of conscripts in the open. Now add AP to those shots. or take the marine out of cover and see the marine drop in durability.
Snipers- Ratlings are better snipers by far, their BS is the same, with the same weapon, at less than half the cost. As such they get double the number of shots for the same points. 5 scout snipers are 75 points (assuming no cammo cloaks), 5 points more than 10 Ratlings. So the ratlings deal twice as many wounds to their targets and are more likely to roll 6s for mortal wounds.
I will say that the gap between codex armies thus far is in general much less than it was in previous editions.
the_scotsman wrote: If you want IG back to where they were in 7th, please, just say so. Don't enact a charade of caring about tournament balance or game mechanic balance (seriously, you're complaining that IG could turn off morale when Tyranids and now Iyanden can just do that, army-wide, for far less effort?) if you just want to be able to roll across the table straight into the gunline and wipe out leman russes in a single round because you brought 1 power fist sergeant
It may have been subconscious but you were letting your prejudice show
To answer some of your other points. Whee, here go the goalposts, look at them dance!
Yes guard always could largely mitigate morale in previous editions but this is 8th and unlike other editions anti horde weapons have been gutted to the point of uselessness for most armies. Which led to conscripts that were mathematical impossible for most armies to kill during a whole game. Here we see that we are not isolating one given thing and instead we are considering them in the context of the game as a whole. Previously, the issue was "Actually Commisars we're the issue they should not be any way to flat out ignore a whole sub section of the rules that reliably. It was a bad rule that should have been picked up in the what they laughably called play testing." Now the issue is anti-horde weapons, because it can be pointed out that other armies have better morale-ignoring mechanics in 8th, and it has been part of Guard's character to have morale mitigated and often even removed by cheap characters who do little else.
This combined with massive amounts of los ignoring firepower were a recipe for disaster, which the other player could do very little about in most cases. Still looking at the army in context of the larger game.
The codex is by far the most well rounded and interesting as far as internal balance goes, external balance against previously released codexs was wayyyyy out of whack. Now we're going to break it down by category and look at them in a vacuum!
Best chaff - yes *Donald trump leaning into a microphone voice* Wrong. Brimstone horrors provide far better chaff, mathematically about double the durability of Conscripts for the points.
But hey, it's not like you can sit them in front of some kind of incredibly cheap ignores-LOS artillery battery, or an enormous number of cheap smite-batteries, or a superheavy that can fire 2d6 damage smites or 3D6 lascannon shots or something.
Best DS units - yes pre-nerf, I entirely agree. Now that the basic squad has increased in price by 12 points with the plasma change, we'll see how this one works out. There are other deep strike units that give them a run for their money though - have you seen the math on Lucius electropriests and the damage they put out?
Best artillery - yes Yep.
Best Tanks - yes Have we seen a Leman Russ in a tournament yet? I assume you're talking about a leman russ here, and not a baneblade, because otherwise you're double dipping. Not Razorbacks, huh?
Best Super Heavy- yes if you don't count the daemon gargantuans as superheavies I guess. Aetos'Rau'Keres doesn't have to be all that lucky to one-shot a baneblade with his staff.
Best faction and sub faction rules - yes Most interesting? Definitely. Best? hard to separate them from the rules for the actual units. Separated out, for instance, Iyanden is a strictly superior Valhalla. Also, unless I'm mistaken Guard is the only faction that does not get the -1 to hit stratagem almost everyone takes. And if you want to look at army-wide rules AND subfaction tactics,
we can talk about Mars in the context of Cawl allowing two canticles a turn with re-rolls...
Fastest infantry - yes Ynnari. Also, now Eldar.
Shootiest infantry - yes No? ....No. I'm pretty sure we can safely say this is not actually the case.
Toughest infantry - yes I wonder at this point if you're trolling.
Best snipers - yes except for the -1 to hit, -2 with the Alaitoc tactics, 3+sv in cover, 3 better LD, Obsec troop snipers for 5ppm more, right?
The list goes on pretty much with the only thing lacking being there special characters being good but not spectacular and close combat but even then being far from the worst.
If you cannot make a good list out of the IG codex then there really is not much hope for you. has anyone said Guard aren't a solid army? I hope everyone's codex gets this good internal balance. TBH though my guard list is probably my least competitive, because I play Vostroyans and most of the reason to play them is to use my awesome, gorgeous OOP metal models, all of which are uncompetitive builds. There's also those super OP Vostroyan army rules, which weirdly enough nobody seems to be whinging about.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
the_scotsman wrote: If you want IG back to where they were in 7th, please, just say so. Don't enact a charade of caring about tournament balance or game mechanic balance (seriously, you're complaining that IG could turn off morale when Tyranids and now Iyanden can just do that, army-wide, for far less effort?) if you just want to be able to roll across the table straight into the gunline and wipe out leman russes in a single round because you brought 1 power fist sergeant
It may have been subconscious but you were letting your prejudice show
To answer some of your other points. Whee, here go the goalposts, look at them dance!
Yes guard always could largely mitigate morale in previous editions but this is 8th and unlike other editions anti horde weapons have been gutted to the point of uselessness for most armies. Which led to conscripts that were mathematical impossible for most armies to kill during a whole game. Here we see that we are not isolating one given thing and instead we are considering them in the context of the game as a whole. Previously, the issue was "Actually Commisars we're the issue they should not be any way to flat out ignore a whole sub section of the rules that reliably. It was a bad rule that should have been picked up in the what they laughably called play testing." Now the issue is anti-horde weapons, because it can be pointed out that other armies have better morale-ignoring mechanics in 8th, and it has been part of Guard's character to have morale mitigated and often even removed by cheap characters who do little else.
This combined with massive amounts of los ignoring firepower were a recipe for disaster, which the other player could do very little about in most cases. Still looking at the army in context of the larger game.
The codex is by far the most well rounded and interesting as far as internal balance goes, external balance against previously released codexs was wayyyyy out of whack. Now we're going to break it down by category and look at them in a vacuum!
Best chaff - yes *Donald trump leaning into a microphone voice* Wrong. Brimstone horrors provide far better chaff, mathematically about double the durability of Conscripts for the points.
But hey, it's not like you can sit them in front of some kind of incredibly cheap ignores-LOS artillery battery, or an enormous number of cheap smite-batteries, or a superheavy that can fire 2d6 damage smites or 3D6 lascannon shots or something.
Best DS units - yes pre-nerf, I entirely agree. Now that the basic squad has increased in price by 12 points with the plasma change, we'll see how this one works out. There are other deep strike units that give them a run for their money though - have you seen the math on Lucius electropriests and the damage they put out?
Best artillery - yes Yep.
Best Tanks - yes Have we seen a Leman Russ in a tournament yet? I assume you're talking about a leman russ here, and not a baneblade, because otherwise you're double dipping. Not Razorbacks, huh?
Best Super Heavy- yes if you don't count the daemon gargantuans as superheavies I guess. Aetos'Rau'Keres doesn't have to be all that lucky to one-shot a baneblade with his staff.
Best faction and sub faction rules - yes Most interesting? Definitely. Best? hard to separate them from the rules for the actual units. Separated out, for instance, Iyanden is a strictly superior Valhalla. Also, unless I'm mistaken Guard is the only faction that does not get the -1 to hit stratagem almost everyone takes. And if you want to look at army-wide rules AND subfaction tactics,
we can talk about Mars in the context of Cawl allowing two canticles a turn with re-rolls...
Fastest infantry - yes Ynnari. Also, now Eldar.
Shootiest infantry - yes No? ....No. I'm pretty sure we can safely say this is not actually the case.
Toughest infantry - yes I wonder at this point if you're trolling.
Best snipers - yes except for the -1 to hit, -2 with the Alaitoc tactics, 3+sv in cover, 3 better LD, Obsec troop snipers for 5ppm more, right?
The list goes on pretty much with the only thing lacking being there special characters being good but not spectacular and close combat but even then being far from the worst.
If you cannot make a good list out of the IG codex then there really is not much hope for you. has anyone said Guard aren't a solid army? I hope everyone's codex gets this good internal balance. TBH though my guard list is probably my least competitive, because I play Vostroyans and most of the reason to play them is to use my awesome, gorgeous OOP metal models, all of which are uncompetitive builds. There's also those super OP Vostroyan army rules, which weirdly enough nobody seems to be whinging about.
One thing to add. In the case of deep strike and artillery the units actually being used in tournaments were often not the codex (or index) guard. They were elysians and earthshaker carriages.
Guard is still the best army in the game. Complaining about this nerf is bad form.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Bobthehero wrote: Doesn't matter much for artillery, shouldn't that be one of the thing the Guard does better than anyone?
The issue pre-nerf was that they had one of the best screens/the best screen in the game to block for said artillery. I'm fine if they have the best (it isn't even close really). I just don't think it should be largely immune to damage due to an immovable screen.
Marmatag wrote: Guard is still the best army in the game. Complaining about this nerf is bad form.
I don't think that's true at all.
It is a valid perspective to wish others matched IG for power than it is to wish that IG be dragged down to match the others.
I for one wish all armies were as fluffy and cool with as many options for their armies as IG, rather than wishing that IG be stripped down to a monobuild in the name of Balance.
Bobthehero wrote: Doesn't matter much for artillery, shouldn't that be one of the thing the Guard does better than anyone?
The issue pre-nerf was that they had one of the best screens/the best screen in the game to block for said artillery. I'm fine if they have the best (it isn't even close really). I just don't think it should be largely immune to damage due to an immovable screen.
The artillery's not "immune to damage" because the conscripts do nothing against shooting. It's only immune to damage if your list building is "Alright, 2000 points of death company. LET'S ROCK"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/25 16:15:12
Marmatag wrote: Guard is still the best army in the game. Complaining about this nerf is bad form.
I don't really see it that way. If tomorrow an FAQ came out that added 300 matched play points to Guilliman, Celestine and Magnus, with the explanation that "hey guys, these characters are really only for Narrative play so we added points to them in matched to keep everything more fun!" then I'd complain about that, because it would be a lazy, shortsighted change that made the model much less usable in the game. I'd feel bad for people who like Guilliman, even if I despise every aspect of him and his inclusion in 40k.
This is hyperbole, of course, because the Commissar change is nowhere near that bad - he's just a dedicated unit you take with Conscripts now rather than a general TAC piece for morale buffing - but it doesn't change the fact that a more elegant solution that did not affect his less problematic use cases could have been put in place instead. Send in the Next Wave was similar lazy, knee-jerk balance. If it was a big problem, they could have simply reworded it to operate identically to Tide of Traitors, a rule nobody has any problem with. Instead they just said "not for matched, guys, sorryyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!"
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Marmatag wrote: Guard is still the best army in the game. Complaining about this nerf is bad form.
I don't think that's true at all.
It is a valid perspective to wish others matched IG for power than it is to wish that IG be dragged down to match the others.
I for one wish all armies were as fluffy and cool with as many options for their armies as IG, rather than wishing that IG be stripped down to a monobuild in the name of Balance.
Bobthehero wrote: Doesn't matter much for artillery, shouldn't that be one of the thing the Guard does better than anyone?
The issue pre-nerf was that they had one of the best screens/the best screen in the game to block for said artillery. I'm fine if they have the best (it isn't even close really). I just don't think it should be largely immune to damage due to an immovable screen.
The artillery's not "immune to damage" because the conscripts do nothing against shooting. It's only immune to damage if your list building is "Alright, 2000 points of death company. LET'S ROCK"
It is immune to damage if LOS blocking terrain exists and those conscripts deny the angles where you can see the artillery. Unless you also have artillery...which wait for it...is mostly limited to guard.
Which is why I said largely immune. Most tables have enough LOS blockers to hide several artillery pieces, then the screen blocks the deepstrike angles and movement to see said artillery, in addition to assault. If deepstrike worked like drop pods last edition it would be hard to block this off, but with a 9" no-go zone it is a simple matter.
Then why did they neither place first or second in the GT?
Which GT? Players matter you know. Guard is not an auto win, but it is right now in the top 2 armies in the game. Time will tell if that remains the case.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/25 16:30:32
Then why did they neither place first or second in the GT?
You say "the GT" but there are a ton of GTs. You're saying "THE" GT because it fits your complainer narrative. In fact Guard have been dominating the ITC tournaments for a long time.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Ignoring cover and a 6+ feel-no-pain, respectively, are both complete positives and actually quite useful. They're not as good as the Ultramarines one, but Ultramarines are broke as feth right now anyway so that's not surprising. Certainly more powerful than Valhallans.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Member of 
DKoK Blog:
Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey
