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Personally, I'd like to see the Command Point structure rearranged, though this is entirely a pipe dream, this is how I would structure it:

1) Redefine keywords and call out "Base Faction", "Main Faction" and "Subfaction(s)". Base Faction is Imperium, Aeldari, Chaos, etc, allowing for armies to be allied together. Other factions bring different rules.

2) When building an army, you select one "Main Faction" to form your detachment (I.E. Imperial Guard, Orks, Tyranids, etc). The percentage of your army that is that faction determines your Base Command Points: 2 for 25% or more, 3 for 50% or more, 4 for 75% or more, 5 for 100%.

3) Next, your army gets a Multiplier depending on composition. You only get to select one even if you meet multiple, and after multiplying your Base Command Points any fractions are lost. Army is over 33% any battlefield role other than Troops: 1.25. Army is 25% or more Troops: 1.5. Army is 50% or more Troops: 2.

This "Penalizes" allies by instead encouraging faction focus, removes the current "horde army bonus" you get for having spammable options, and achieves some of the effect of the current detachment system without requiring quite as many "tax" units to put your armies on the table.

The data Blacksails linked to includes RTTs, we were discussing GTs. If you want to discuss RTTs i'm certainly willing to do that. But i dominate RTTs with Grey Knights that wouldn't finish in the top 50 in any major event. Because RTT is local meta, just competitive.

In major events, IG has absolutely dominated.

And all these lolbags complaining about Guilliman, when confronted with the Chaos data, still complain about Guilliman, whereas Chaos is performing better - at major events - than Guilliman lists, which is 100% better than any loyalist marine list without Guilliman. Azrael excluded, of course.

Although forgeworld has a big part in that, and GW can't balance FW no matter how much people here will tell you "they're the same company" as if that's supposed to matter in regards to rulesets.

 Marmatag wrote:
The data Blacksails linked to includes RTTs, we were discussing GTs. If you want to discuss RTTs i'm certainly willing to do that. But i dominate RTTs with Grey Knights that wouldn't finish in the top 50 in any major event. Because RTT is local meta, just competitive.

In major events, IG has absolutely dominated.

And all these lolbags complaining about Guilliman, when confronted with the Chaos data, still complain about Guilliman, whereas Chaos is performing better - at major events - than Guilliman lists, which is 100% better than any loyalist marine list without Guilliman. Azrael excluded, of course.

Although forgeworld has a big part in that, and GW can't balance FW no matter how much people here will tell you "they're the same company" as if that's supposed to matter in regards to rulesets.

Be careful there, you might be accused of moving goalposts even though we were only talking about major events in the first place!

 Marmatag wrote:
The data Blacksails linked to includes RTTs, we were discussing GTs. If you want to discuss RTTs i'm certainly willing to do that. But i dominate RTTs with Grey Knights that wouldn't finish in the top 50 in any major event. Because RTT is local meta, just competitive.

Look at those goalposts go! I can't even keep up they're zipping around so quickly!

For the record, in this thread, you've mentioned GTs precisely once, and in every single other post, simply mentioned tournaments and ITC events.

Its okay to admit you're wrong. Either that or pony up the data that supports your assertion.

I'll also add that ITC scores only factor in up to 3 RTTs, with the other two scores coming from GTs or above.

In major events, IG has absolutely dominated.

[CITATION NEEDED]

And all these lolbags complaining about Guilliman, when confronted with the Chaos data, still complain about Guilliman, whereas Chaos is performing better - at major events - than Guilliman lists, which is 100% better than any loyalist marine list without Guilliman. Azrael excluded, of course.

I can't wait to see all the threads and posts you'll make about how OP chaos are.

But I'm also sure the irony is lost on you getting upset about being called out on Guilliman.

 Marmatag wrote:

In major events, IG has absolutely dominated.

How many major events have there been pre-codex? What were the results?

How many major events have there been post-codex? What were the results?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Be careful there, you might be accused of moving goalposts even though we were only talking about major events in the first place!

If only the data I sifted through showed that most of the events were GTs or larger...

If only...

 Marmatag wrote:
The data Blacksails linked to includes RTTs, we were discussing GTs. If you want to discuss RTTs i'm certainly willing to do that. But i dominate RTTs with Grey Knights that wouldn't finish in the top 50 in any major event. Because RTT is local meta, just competitive.

In major events, IG has absolutely dominated.

And all these lolbags complaining about Guilliman, when confronted with the Chaos data, still complain about Guilliman, whereas Chaos is performing better - at major events - than Guilliman lists, which is 100% better than any loyalist marine list without Guilliman. Azrael excluded, of course.

Although forgeworld has a big part in that, and GW can't balance FW no matter how much people here will tell you "they're the same company" as if that's supposed to matter in regards to rulesets.

"Here you will find a continually updated list of major Grand Tournament Winner Lists for 8th Edition Warhammer 40k."

This is from the BoK site Blacksails linked.

"Looking at BoK's site, we find that Ultramarines and Space Marines make up 12 entries in top 3, with 4 being 1st place.

IG have 8 entries in the top 3, with 4 being 1st place as well.

To put it in perspective, Chaos Marines and Chaos Daemons have a total of 10 entries in the top 3, with a single 1st place. "

Are there a number of major events that were not listed here? Or is there additional data you would like to show, filtering out the RTTs and showing only GTs? Even disregarding the ITC scoring data set you take issue with, Guard appears to be doing about equal/slightly worse than marines and chaos.

 Marmatag wrote:

Although forgeworld has a big part in that, and GW can't balance FW no matter how much people here will tell you "they're the same company" as if that's supposed to matter in regards to rulesets.

FW doesnt appear to be a major balance issue in most respects. There are a couple stinkers they borked up on. That always happens. However, FW stuff is still largely relatively rare at competitive events. Chaos appears to be the one faction sporting lots of FW at the competitive level and getting a major boost from it. We're certainly not seeing tons of FW stuff dominating top tables, looking at competitive lists it's basically Malefic Lords, Shadow Spectres, some gun platforms, some Elysian and R&H stuff, and thats about it, a relatively small part of FW's overall offering that people cherrpick.

We certainly didnt see FW dominate 7E, the main GW studio borked that one all on its own, and the overwhelmingly vast majority of isses with 8th arent FW related either (e.g. Conscripts, Celestine, Magnus, Mortarion, RobbyG, etc)

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Although forgeworld has a big part in that, and GW can't balance FW no matter how much people here will tell you "they're the same company" as if that's supposed to matter in regards to rulesets.

FW doesnt appear to be a major balance issue in most respects. There are a couple stinkers they borked up on. That always happens. However, FW stuff is still largely relatively rare at competitive events. Chaos appears to be the one faction sporting lots of FW at the competitive level and getting a major boost from it. We're certainly not seeing tons of FW stuff dominating top tables, looking at competitive lists it's basically Malefic Lords, Shadow Spectres, some gun platforms, some Elysian and R&H stuff, and thats about it, a relatively small part of FW's overall offering that people cherrpick.

We certainly didnt see FW dominate 7E, the main GW studio borked that one all on its own, and the overwhelmingly vast majority of isses with 8th arent FW related either (e.g. Conscripts, Celestine, Magnus, Mortarion, RobbyG, etc)

Has Mortarion replaced ARK in the problematic daemon build? I would have thought with how laughably ridiculous he was pre the release of morty he would be a tough guy to shift.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
GW thought that the keyword system would be enough. They were wrong, especially for factions with extremely cheap HQ slots (Guard and Renegade Guard, for example).

Yup essentially limiting to detachments for Keyword bonuses is not enough to incentivize solo faction armies in any way. The only thing it really does is create a disincentive for taking a single unit from an allied faction as doing so either costs you your faction bonus or 1 CP and a full detachment.

Breng77 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
GW thought that the keyword system would be enough. They were wrong, especially for factions with extremely cheap HQ slots (Guard and Renegade Guard, for example).

Yup essentially limiting to detachments for Keyword bonuses is not enough to incentivize solo faction armies in any way. The only thing it really does is create a disincentive for taking a single unit from an allied faction as doing so either costs you your faction bonus or 1 CP and a full detachment.

Which literally will not change until you cannot take single units from Allied factions or artificial constructs like "You can only use one Codex when writing your army list" are put into play.

I can take a problem unit like Guilliman or Mortarion or Magnus without needing to take a whole Detachment. They're Lords of War.
But being unable/penalized for taking single Lords of War would mean that a Guard army has to take a Supreme Command Detachment to field one of their Codex Superheavies or when Khorne Daemonkin get redone they'd need to do the same in order to field a Lord of Skulls or when AdMech take one of the Knights that got shoved into their book they'd all be in the same boat.

 Blacksails wrote:
I can't wait to see all the threads and posts you'll make about how OP chaos are.

There's a thread about how problematic Chaos Soup is on the front page right now, so...

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Although forgeworld has a big part in that, and GW can't balance FW no matter how much people here will tell you "they're the same company" as if that's supposed to matter in regards to rulesets.

FW doesnt appear to be a major balance issue in most respects. There are a couple stinkers they borked up on. That always happens. However, FW stuff is still largely relatively rare at competitive events. Chaos appears to be the one faction sporting lots of FW at the competitive level and getting a major boost from it. We're certainly not seeing tons of FW stuff dominating top tables, looking at competitive lists it's basically Malefic Lords, Shadow Spectres, some gun platforms, some Elysian and R&H stuff, and thats about it, a relatively small part of FW's overall offering that people cherrpick.

We certainly didnt see FW dominate 7E, the main GW studio borked that one all on its own, and the overwhelmingly vast majority of isses with 8th arent FW related either (e.g. Conscripts, Celestine, Magnus, Mortarion, RobbyG, etc)

While I will agree that FW isn't a problem with most of their stuff, it should be noted that 95% of FW not being a problem isn't really a solution if that remaining 5% is particularly prolific. Not making any claim about what should be done with FW, just pointing out that most of their stuff being a problem doesn't mean they aren't a key issue. In particular you reference conscripts as an issue, but do note that the majority of damage dealing units in the most up to date AM lists I've seen (though after the FAQ who knows) were earthshaker carriages and elysians.

Darkagl1 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Although forgeworld has a big part in that, and GW can't balance FW no matter how much people here will tell you "they're the same company" as if that's supposed to matter in regards to rulesets.

FW doesnt appear to be a major balance issue in most respects. There are a couple stinkers they borked up on. That always happens. However, FW stuff is still largely relatively rare at competitive events. Chaos appears to be the one faction sporting lots of FW at the competitive level and getting a major boost from it. We're certainly not seeing tons of FW stuff dominating top tables, looking at competitive lists it's basically Malefic Lords, Shadow Spectres, some gun platforms, some Elysian and R&H stuff, and thats about it, a relatively small part of FW's overall offering that people cherrpick.

We certainly didnt see FW dominate 7E, the main GW studio borked that one all on its own, and the overwhelmingly vast majority of isses with 8th arent FW related either (e.g. Conscripts, Celestine, Magnus, Mortarion, RobbyG, etc)

While I will agree that FW isn't a problem with most of their stuff, it should be noted that 95% of FW not being a problem isn't really a solution if that remaining 5% is particularly prolific. Not making any claim about what should be done with FW, just pointing out that most of their stuff being a problem doesn't mean they aren't a key issue. In particular you reference conscripts as an issue, but do note that the majority of damage dealing units in the most up to date AM lists I've seen (though after the FAQ who knows) were earthshaker carriages and elysians.

That's because the majority of that 95% is unusably BAD. Forgeworld is a balance problem - it just so happens that the stuff that is not a problem in a positive light is a problem in a negative light because the rules are so poorly designed to accomplish what the units are supposed to accomplish.

The only units that function in a basic manner are those that copy so exactly the functions of other existing models that they squeak by.The 8th ed rules from FW have put new meaning to the term "incompetent" - they make base GW look incredibly good, which is a feat.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I can't wait to see all the threads and posts you'll make about how OP chaos are.

There's a thread about how problematic Chaos Soup is on the front page right now, so...

Which was started after this all got brought up here.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Funny, I keep getting told Magnus sucks.

I've seen one guy crazy enough to believe this. The Magnus/Morty power couple is one of the lists that needs to stop; personally I think all the primarchs should have a rule where in order to take one 50% of your army should be comprised of their chapter/legion (so no taking Magnus in a 2000 point game unless you spend 585 points on Thousand Sons). You could probably give Celestine this rule, too.

Max two detachments might help a little.

 Blacksails wrote:

In major events, IG has absolutely dominated.

[CITATION NEEDED]

So was there ever supporting evidence provided for this?

I might have missed it.

Darkagl1 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Although forgeworld has a big part in that, and GW can't balance FW no matter how much people here will tell you "they're the same company" as if that's supposed to matter in regards to rulesets.

FW doesnt appear to be a major balance issue in most respects. There are a couple stinkers they borked up on. That always happens. However, FW stuff is still largely relatively rare at competitive events. Chaos appears to be the one faction sporting lots of FW at the competitive level and getting a major boost from it. We're certainly not seeing tons of FW stuff dominating top tables, looking at competitive lists it's basically Malefic Lords, Shadow Spectres, some gun platforms, some Elysian and R&H stuff, and thats about it, a relatively small part of FW's overall offering that people cherrpick.

We certainly didnt see FW dominate 7E, the main GW studio borked that one all on its own, and the overwhelmingly vast majority of isses with 8th arent FW related either (e.g. Conscripts, Celestine, Magnus, Mortarion, RobbyG, etc)

While I will agree that FW isn't a problem with most of their stuff, it should be noted that 95% of FW not being a problem isn't really a solution if that remaining 5% is particularly prolific. Not making any claim about what should be done with FW, just pointing out that most of their stuff being a problem doesn't mean they aren't a key issue. In particular you reference conscripts as an issue, but do note that the majority of damage dealing units in the most up to date AM lists I've seen (though after the FAQ who knows) were earthshaker carriages and elysians.

in general however, FW stuff isnt any greater power/balance issue than mainline studio stuff, usually less, which was the main point. Yeah they have some broken stuff, and it should be addressed, but it doesnt appear to have the effect on the game or widespread mass selection that most of the big main studio balance issues do.

The stuff like Earthshaker platforms is more a min maxing issue. Theyre a bit cheaper than an actual Basilisk, but are easier to kill and immobile. It makes them easier to spam, and they're cheap to convert (which contributes to their popularity), but they're also legitimately less valuable than actual Basilisks too, much the same way up armored T7 Armageddon pattern basilisks are more exensive than normal Basilisks.

 daedalus wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

In major events, IG has absolutely dominated.

[CITATION NEEDED]

So was there ever supporting evidence provided for this?

I might have missed it.

This though. Where is this.

In the most recent tournament after the codex dropped, the SoCal open, it was:

1. Imperial Guard
Featuring the usual combos of taurox prime, plasma scions, conscripts, and Celestine. Even post nerf this list is still #1, because Guard is still number 1 overall.

2. Alpha Legion
Doesn't feature malefic lords or primarchs. Obliterators, cultists, champions.. interesting list.

3. Astra Militarum + Grey Knights
It's a typical AM list, but with 3 grand master nemesis dreadknights. Grey Knights are back to being codex: Dreadknight. Typical AM list with plasma scion spam and mortar spam.

4. Ynaari
Yncarne, Yvraine, a ton of wave serpents, dark reapers, and guardians

5. Alpha Legion
The usual berzerker list, with magnus and malefic lords.

No Guilliman lists in the top 5.

Well we will see how the next couple of tournaments go about then, but just like I said with the Tactical Marine thread...it is one of those rare things that happens so little it might as well not matter.

 Marmatag wrote:
In the most recent tournament after the codex dropped, the SoCal open, it was:

1. Imperial Guard
Featuring the usual combos of taurox prime, plasma scions, conscripts, and Celestine. Even post nerf this list is still #1, because Guard is still number 1 overall.

2. Alpha Legion
Doesn't feature malefic lords or primarchs. Obliterators, cultists, champions.. interesting list.

3. Astra Militarum + Grey Knights
It's a typical AM list, but with 3 grand master nemesis dreadknights. Grey Knights are back to being codex: Dreadknight. Typical AM list with plasma scion spam and mortar spam.

4. Ynaari
Yncarne, Yvraine, a ton of wave serpents, dark reapers, and guardians

5. Alpha Legion
The usual berzerker list, with magnus and malefic lords.

No Guilliman lists in the top 5.

Looks like Chaos and Ynnari are doing well then.

Thanks for this data point.

 Marmatag wrote:
In the most recent tournament after the codex dropped, the SoCal open, it was:

1. Imperial Guard
Featuring the usual combos of taurox prime, plasma scions, conscripts, and Celestine. Even post nerf this list is still #1, because Guard is still number 1 overall.

So, lets breathe for a second, and then clarify the timeline. This is post-codex, but not "post nerf" (assuming that your definition of "nerf" is the commissar change). Date on the AM FAQ article is 22/10/2017.

Okay, so IG with Celestine and some Seraphim got first. Didn't see the Seraphim coming.

2. Alpha Legion
Doesn't feature malefic lords or primarchs. Obliterators, cultists, champions.. interesting list.

I like it. Probably worked like the 6x5 tac razorspam list did: no one saw it coming. Also, 40 cultists, presumably for a screen. Definitely seeing a trend here.

3. Astra Militarum + Grey Knights
It's a typical AM list, but with 3 grand master nemesis dreadknights. Grey Knights are back to being codex: Dreadknight. Typical AM list with plasma scion spam and mortar spam.

No. Full stop.

It's 1014 points of GK. It's monster mash with three dreadknights and a librarian. There's infantry squads, mortar spam, and only two squads of plasma scions. There's scout sentinels and a fething sniper/GL special weapons squad in there.

I mean, I'll cry right alongside you about how gakky the GK codex is. I have before. I imagine I will again. It's disingenuous to call this "a typical AM list" though when referring to the tournament scene anymore than it is to call it a typical GK list.

4. Ynaari
Yncarne, Yvraine, a ton of wave serpents, dark reapers, and guardians

So that one looks typical enough to me for a Ynarri list. I'm admittedly no expert on Eldar though. I guess we'll see if that gets shaken up enough post-release this weekend.

5. Alpha Legion
The usual berzerker list, with magnus and malefic lords.

Yeah, that's unsurprising from what I can read of it. Wished it wasn't hand-written.

So, is this considered a "GT"? I don't honestly know what the definition is, but I can't find "socal open" and "GT" put together in the same page really anywhere.

From the one photo I could find of people at the SoCal open wrap-up, it looks like it's roughly about the size of if the St. Louis metro scene got together in a room at once, maybe a little larger. So it's a decent sized group probably. Maybe, what, 50-60 people, at least visible, in the picture.

Oh, and a link to the top five for anyone who wants to see them themselves: https://spikeybits.com/2017/10/top-5-army-lists-in-8th-edition-40k-from-socal-open.html

Good break down Daedalus. I didn't bother sifting through the lists as I'm pretty tired from doing from my earlier fact finding adventure, so thanks for the clarification here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

In major events, IG has absolutely dominated.

[CITATION NEEDED]

So was there ever supporting evidence provided for this?

I might have missed it.

This though. Where is this.

Oh, and to answer this, there's evidence that IG are a top 3 codex with Marines and Chaos, but nothing to support some hyperbolic assertion that IG are dominating every tournament or are unbeatable, or otherwise sitting on some lone #1 pedestal high above every other army.

Its interesting that none of these IG lists are played without allies.

Marines are not on the same level as Guard & Chaos. These are the top two, and Guard usually beats Chaos. Taurox primes laugh in the face of brimstones, and conscripts love getting hit by smites.

I would say Guilliman makes marines tier 2, just like the Yncarne makes Eldar tier 2. It's pretty much the same idea and the same thing. You wouldn't say eldar are tier 2. You'd say Ynaari. You wouldn't say marines are tier 2. You'd say Guilliman lists. It's the same damn thing really.

Look guard are a tier 1 army. And they're better, heads up, than the other tier 1 army.

Clearly we need to nerf GK Grand Masters in Dreadknights.

Citation needed.

Marmatag wrote:Marines are not on the same level as Guard & Chaos. These are the top two, and Guard usually beats Chaos.

Odd, its almost as if we have tourney data that shows marines meaning as often as Guard, and having higher average ITC scores than Guard. Weird, that must mean...Marines suck right? That must surely be the only logical conclusion.

I would say Guilliman makes marines tier 2, just like the Yncarne makes Eldar tier 2. It's pretty much the same idea and the same thing. You wouldn't say eldar are tier 2. You'd say Ynaari. You wouldn't say marines are tier 2. You'd say Guilliman lists. It's the same damn thing really.

Would then also say that Guard aren't tier 1, only conscripts and scions are? It must be nice only applying standards and logic one way.

Look guard are a tier 1 army. And they're better, heads up, than the other tier 1 army.

Based on...? Your feelings? If only someone had sifted through the tourney data already for you...

If only.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Clearly we need to nerf GK Grand Masters in Dreadknights.

Well the whole GK's codex is pretty weak so having a unit like the GMDK in there just doesn't make sense. I agree - Nerf GMDK.

TBH - I am bringing a 1000 point list in a team tornament with 3 GMDK and 3 paladins - should be fun.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Clearly we need to nerf GK Grand Masters in Dreadknights.

Well the whole GK's codex is pretty weak so having a unit like the GMDK in there just doesn't make sense. I agree - Nerf GMDK.

TBH - I am bringing a 1000 point list in a team tornament with 3 GMDK and 3 paladins - should be fun.

I don't care what you do with Grey Knights at this point. They're not a tournament army. One guy lucking into the top 5 with four Grey Knights models doesn't really get me excited about playing them, or buying $500 worth of AM to run a Grey Knights list.

3 GMNDK and 3 paladins would be a fun team tournament list.