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People fail to grasp that infantry squads still benefit quite a bit from commisars, but special weapons and heavy weapons teams benefit even more to the point of being virtually immune to moral with him around.

You have to be really spoiled for choice to complain your 30 point model isn't an end-all-be-all solution to any and all moral checks any unit in your army ever has to make.

 BoomWolf wrote:
People fail to grasp that infantry squads still benefit quite a bit from commisars, but special weapons and heavy weapons teams benefit even more to the point of being virtually immune to moral with him around.

You have to be really spoiled for choice to complain your 30 point model isn't an end-all-be-all solution to any and all moral checks any unit in your army ever has to make.

You're wrong.

Explain how a 10 model Infantry Squad benefits from having a Commissar around when they lose 4 models and have a -2 LD modifier.
Explain how a 6 model Special Weapon Squad or a 3 model Heavy Weapons Squad benefit from this.

You can lose the whole squad thanks to the Commissar's forced reroll instead of potentially just losing a single model on a lucky roll.
Said it before, saying it again anyways:
Commissars are dead. Anyone saying otherwise and using examples that aren't Conscript Squads are full of crap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:
commissars already reduce the amount of casualties conscripts take by 4/5, and also give a reroll to failed morale tests.

Pretty good for 30 points.

If someone shoots twenty models worth three points off the table, it should be pretty good for you even if the other ten run for it. That's what, two or three twin assault cannons used for 90 points lost? Then your stuff that actually does damage gets to reply.

Conscripts were stupid before. They won't revert the change, since commissars work fine for other units, buffing leadership and giving you a reroll to ten men infantry squads. For thirty points.

The change will stand.

A 15 point Astropath with a Laspistol can make a squad immune to Morale Tests for a turn and negate cover benefits on an enemy within 18" for all the Guard units within 6" of the Astropath.
Additionally, you don't get "given" a reroll to failed Morale tests.

You must make a reroll. It doesn't matter if you manage to eke out just losing 1 guy on a Morale test of LD5 or LD4--you're rerolling and possibly losing more guys in addition to the mandatory blammed model.

There's literally no point to Commissars now. Stop trying to act like there is.

 Crazyterran wrote:
commissars already reduce the amount of casualties conscripts take by 4/5, and also give a reroll to failed morale tests.

Pretty good for 30 points.

If someone shoots twenty models worth three points off the table, it should be pretty good for you even if the other ten run for it. That's what, two or three twin assault cannons used for 90 points lost? Then your stuff that actually does damage gets to reply.

Conscripts were stupid before. They won't revert the change, since commissars work fine for other units, buffing leadership and giving you a reroll to ten men infantry squads. For thirty points.

The change will stand.

See earlier in the thread for my analysis of Summary Execution.

TL;DR: The commissar is a LD buff. The summary execution roll, when its effects are analyzed, is a negative rule, not a positive one. There is no value of casualties where the Summary Execution does not increase the number of casualties taken on average.

If it were an OPTIONAL reroll ala ATSKNF, then you could argue "the commissar gives a LD boost and a reroll". but as it stands, you're saying "plasma weapons are amazing, they have good strength, damage, and the Gets Hot rule is a great bonus!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:
People fail to grasp that infantry squads still benefit quite a bit from commisars, but special weapons and heavy weapons teams benefit even more to the point of being virtually immune to moral with him around.

You have to be really spoiled for choice to complain your 30 point model isn't an end-all-be-all solution to any and all moral checks any unit in your army ever has to make.

I'll put this in the simplest possible terms.

Infantry units from the IG are LD7, right?

the commissar makes them LD8.

7 to 8 is +1.

The average effect of the Summary Execution roll goes from close to 0 at 3 casualties, to -.6 at 5 casualties, to -1 at 6+ casualties.

Do you know what 1 -1 is?

Do you see why Commissars are no longer useful for units that only receive 1 LD from him?

What if they changed it so that if you roll a two or more on a leadership test and fail, you shoot a model and count the roll as a 1? You break even on a two, but gain on the rest, and it does nothing on a one for the morale test.

 Crazyterran wrote:
What if they changed it so that if you roll a two or more on a leadership test and fail, you shoot a model and count the roll as a 1? You break even on a two, but gain on the rest, and it does nothing on a one for the morale test.

At that point, you might as well just reset it to what it was before.

No, because before, if you blown away twenty conscripts, they lost one model.

Now, if you blow away twenty models, the rest of the unit still will run during the morale phase.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
What if they changed it so that if you roll a two or more on a leadership test and fail, you shoot a model and count the roll as a 1? You break even on a two, but gain on the rest, and it does nothing on a one for the morale test.

At that point, you might as well just reset it to what it was before.

I actually suggested this earlier, though I would leave it at "if you fail a morale test, he shoots a model and count the D6 roll as a 1" because it actually provides a drawback for what was previously his abuse case (Conscripts) while leaving his normal use case about the same (infantry).

For conscripts, you would guarantee squad death by killing a fixed number (I forget the exact math but I think it was 13 dead to kill the remaining 7 from a 20-squad and 18 to kill the remaining 12 from a 30-squad.

for 10-man squads, 8 dead would guarantee the remaining 2 die, and for smaller squads (SWS/HWS) the commissar would work as he does now/as he did before.

Fun part, I actually went over the whole scenario by each possibly number of casualties taken by an infantry squad WAY back on this very thread, and how it is STILL a mathematical improvement.
And I got promotly ignored. little things like math and facts do not seem to be important to most of the old-commi lovers (who was so absurdly broken it wasnt funny) and they refuse to accept he still has value.


Long story short, as I laze to gather it across the various posts

If you are in an "always fail" category, the commisar Ld just cancels out the blam, for every 1 rolled into 6, there is a 6 rolled into 1. thats mathematically a non-factor.

HOWEVER, a 10 man squad is never, ever in the "always fail" category without major penalties combined with heavy casualties that would render the whole squad dead to begin with whether or not the commisar is even there.
BUT, on the edge cases, who are the most common for a 10 man squad (and even more common for lower than 10 man), there is a mathematical reduction of casualties taken.
The only, single case where a commisar actually causes more trouble than good is a squad with ld7 that started the turn in 10 models and taken exactly 8 casualties. hardly a case where it even matters any more.

Especially in squads like heavy weapons or special weapons who have less than 10 members and only Ld6. Or ratlings with their poor Ld.
A special weapon team for example, is saving 2 guys before the potential blam, so bare minimum 1 saved. a heavy weapon is outright immune to moral with commisar around as they CANT fail at 2 casualties, and at 3 they are already dead.

As for Ld reductions-that's exactly where you shine with the commisar.
As long the debuff bubble doesn't reach the commisar itself, the squad is technically not effected by it at all, as the squad take a penalty, and then uses the commisar's ld anyway, who is uneffected at 8 still.

As for conscripts, due to Ld buff alone, he saves at least 3 guys per moral test. yes, other models have bubbles too, but not quite as cheap as this one. also-no need for an extra detachment for your inquisitor.


As the commisar currently stands-he has uses, can be vaulable when used correctly, but not always the best option.
That is THE definition of well balanced.

Now, I'm too sick, and lazy, to have the enegy to actually put down the equasions that prove me right, but the end result is simple, commisars are a slight improvement for infantry squads, great help to special/heavy weapons and ratlings, and somewhat helpful for conscripts.
Even for command squads he's still a net gain (despite the flag)

For a mere 30 point model who packs the shooting capacity of two more of your dudes on a body of three, you really can't ask for much more.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Fun part, I actually went over the whole scenario by each possibly number of casualties taken by an infantry squad WAY back on this very thread, and how it is STILL a mathematical improvement.
And I got promotly ignored. little things like math and facts do not seem to be important to most of the old-commi lovers (who was so absurdly broken it wasnt funny) and they refuse to accept he still has value.


Long story short, as I laze to gather it across the various posts

If you are in an "always fail" category, the commisar Ld just cancels out the blam, for every 1 rolled into 6, there is a 6 rolled into 1. thats mathematically a non-factor.

HOWEVER, a 10 man squad is never, ever in the "always fail" category without major penalties combined with heavy casualties that would render the whole squad dead to begin with whether or not the commisar is even there.
BUT, on the edge cases, who are the most common for a 10 man squad (and even more common for lower than 10 man), there is a mathematical reduction of casualties taken.
The only, single case where a commisar actually causes more trouble than good is a squad with ld7 that started the turn in 10 models and taken exactly 8 casualties. hardly a case where it even matters any more.

Especially in squads like heavy weapons or special weapons who have less than 10 members and only Ld6. Or ratlings with their poor Ld.
A special weapon team for example, is saving 2 guys before the potential blam, so bare minimum 1 saved. a heavy weapon is outright immune to moral with commisar around as they CANT fail at 2 casualties, and at 3 they are already dead.

As for Ld reductions-that's exactly where you shine with the commisar.
As long the debuff bubble doesn't reach the commisar itself, the squad is technically not effected by it at all, as the squad take a penalty, and then uses the commisar's ld anyway, who is uneffected at 8 still.

As for conscripts, due to Ld buff alone, he saves at least 3 guys per moral test. yes, other models have bubbles too, but not quite as cheap as this one. also-no need for an extra detachment for your inquisitor.


As the commisar currently stands-he has uses, can be vaulable when used correctly, but not always the best option.
That is THE definition of well balanced.

Now, I'm too sick, and lazy, to have the enegy to actually put down the equasions that prove me right, but the end result is simple, commisars are a slight improvement for infantry squads, great help to special/heavy weapons and ratlings, and somewhat helpful for conscripts.
Even for command squads he's still a net gain (despite the flag)

For a mere 30 point model who packs the shooting capacity of two more of your dudes on a body of three, you really can't ask for much more.

Actually you could instead ask for 8 more guardsmen (32 points, instead of 31 for the Commissar since he has a mandatory bolt pistol).

That's actually the problem - the Commissar shoots like two, has the wounds of three, might save ~1 on an infantry squad (maybe possibly), and costs as much as eight.

EDIT:

Also, the re-roll is not actually a wash, as it costs a model. So essentially (mathematically) if the re-rolls cancel out, then the Commissar just kills one model for no reason.

 BoomWolf wrote:
HOWEVER, a 10 man squad is never, ever in the "always fail" category without major penalties combined with heavy casualties that would render the whole squad dead to begin with whether or not the commisar is even there.
BUT, on the edge cases, who are the most common for a 10 man squad (and even more common for lower than 10 man), there is a mathematical reduction of casualties taken.
The only, single case where a commisar actually causes more trouble than good is a squad with ld7 that started the turn in 10 models and taken exactly 8 casualties. hardly a case where it even matters any more.

The problem is that IG players fixate on how they can mitigate casualties, because that number of people in that screen or in that squad hiding the plasmagun is effectively a life bar for what you really care about. Overall, yeah, with the leadership buff, the commissar still helps mitigate some casualties versus no casualties, but they're unhappy that it doesn't cap the upper bounds. The reason why everyone freaks out about the infantry squad is because that case of 8 casualties is more important this edition than it's been since 5th: It's because it's gone from 30 points to always have a way to save that plasmagun to having no benefit over an LD7 squad and pocketing the 30 points for something else.

The LD8 buff actually completely counteracts the model executed. The frustration is that this means that the max lost is still reduced for conscripts, but not at all anymore for infantry or anything else LD7. As I run the numbers, it looks like the commissar never does actually make things worse, but at anything above 8 casualties he's becomes unhelpful. It's worth mentioning that he also never reduces the max casualties, which is important, because that's kind of been the point for, like, 4 editions now. Regardless, I have an attempt at running the numbers below.



I'm kinda hung over today, so feel free to validate that for yourselves.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
TL;DR: It's a solution for a problem guard don't really care about.

Well, you skipped over LD6 squads there.


Unit1126PLL-if your commisar only saves one dude, you used him poorly. used properly, he saves quite a few over the course of the game, quite possibly ones with extra gear.

Thats exactly what I mean by being balanced.
If he could have brainlessly saves more models than he costs, he's a no-brainer and thus overpowered.
Currently, he CAN get his points and more-but only when used well. meaning, he's good but not too good.

Unfortunatly, the dakka common mindset seems to be "its either OP or useless"

 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, you skipped over LD6 squads there.

I didn't think HWS were ever really the use case for commissars, but okay, I guess:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Fun part, I actually went over the whole scenario by each possibly number of casualties taken by an infantry squad WAY back on this very thread, and how it is STILL a mathematical improvement.
And I got promotly ignored. little things like math and facts do not seem to be important to most of the old-commi lovers (who was so absurdly broken it wasnt funny) and they refuse to accept he still has value.


Long story short, as I laze to gather it across the various posts

If you are in an "always fail" category, the commisar Ld just cancels out the blam, for every 1 rolled into 6, there is a 6 rolled into 1. thats mathematically a non-factor.

HOWEVER, a 10 man squad is never, ever in the "always fail" category without major penalties combined with heavy casualties that would render the whole squad dead to begin with whether or not the commisar is even there.
BUT, on the edge cases, who are the most common for a 10 man squad (and even more common for lower than 10 man), there is a mathematical reduction of casualties taken.
The only, single case where a commisar actually causes more trouble than good is a squad with ld7 that started the turn in 10 models and taken exactly 8 casualties. hardly a case where it even matters any more.

Especially in squads like heavy weapons or special weapons who have less than 10 members and only Ld6. Or ratlings with their poor Ld.
A special weapon team for example, is saving 2 guys before the potential blam, so bare minimum 1 saved. a heavy weapon is outright immune to moral with commisar around as they CANT fail at 2 casualties, and at 3 they are already dead.

As for Ld reductions-that's exactly where you shine with the commisar.
As long the debuff bubble doesn't reach the commisar itself, the squad is technically not effected by it at all, as the squad take a penalty, and then uses the commisar's ld anyway, who is uneffected at 8 still.

As for conscripts, due to Ld buff alone, he saves at least 3 guys per moral test. yes, other models have bubbles too, but not quite as cheap as this one. also-no need for an extra detachment for your inquisitor.


As the commisar currently stands-he has uses, can be vaulable when used correctly, but not always the best option.
That is THE definition of well balanced.

Now, I'm too sick, and lazy, to have the enegy to actually put down the equasions that prove me right, but the end result is simple, commisars are a slight improvement for infantry squads, great help to special/heavy weapons and ratlings, and somewhat helpful for conscripts.
Even for command squads he's still a net gain (despite the flag)

For a mere 30 point model who packs the shooting capacity of two more of your dudes on a body of three, you really can't ask for much more.

Someone else went through the numbers - the Commissar IS slightly advantageous for a leadership 7 unit, but to the extent that you'll rarely see its effects, and also less useful than having another source of Leadership 8 (ie: Banner, Catachan), and for 55 points, as opposed to the 31 min for a Commissar, you can get a Lord Commissar, which is Leadership 9 bubble.

Found it:

Kdash wrote:


The Ld bonus for infantry squads are ok, but, it alone does not justify bringing a commissar for them.

Ok, so I just ran some additional numbers looking at non-Commissar vs Commissar with Infantry Squad and got the following (as like the previous poster I ran this over 5000 cases. The lost figure represents models lost before the morale phase, while everything else is a total figure once morale has been resolved.) The formatting sucks cos Dakka can't do tables or tab spaces apparently... –

Lost / Commissar / Normal / Ld 8 / Lord Comm
(2) / 2.00 / 2.17 / 2.00 / 2.00
(3) / 3.19 / 3.51 / 3.17 / 3.00
(4) / 4.50 / 5.00 / 4.53 / 4.20
(5) / 6.01 / 6.65 / 6.01 / 5.48
(6) / 7.66 / 8.31 / 7.69 / 7.02
(7) / 9.50 / 9.50 / 8.99 / 8.45
(8) / 10.0 / 10.0 / 9.83 / 9.53


As you can see, the Commissar still provides a benefit to the Infantry Squad, however, you’re not likely to see its effects most of the time. The main instances are where it makes you immune to morale when taking 2 casualties and when you lose 4 or 6 models from the unit.

The 3rd column represents you getting Ld 8 on the Infantry squad from a source other than a commissar (i.e Catachan regimental doctrine). The results are pretty similar to the Commissars results, however, this gives you a chance of keeping the squad alive when you take 8 casualties, whereas the Commissar does not, due to him shooting the last guy in the head.

All in all, I’d suggest that taking a Commissar for Infantry Squads now is only beneficial when you only take 2 casualties. The rest of the time, you’d be better off spending the 31 points elsewhere. Also, if you can get the Leadership 8 buff from elsewhere for free/cheaper, it would be more worth it than taking a Commissar.

Overall, I think it will come down to personal preference and whether or not you think you’ll be taking mass casualties a turn, or just a couple. If you have the spare points and like the model, then there is no massive detriment to your army for taking a Commissar.

However, when looking at using a Lord Commissar, you start to see the differences a bit more, but still, not a substantial improvement.

Based on those numbers, the Commissar saves an average of 0.5 models, with two wound levels jumping as high as 0.75 models. On average he won't actively hurt you, but also won't benefit you overly much - 7.75 more Infantry also have the advantage of having a higher damage output than the Commissar and his humble Bolt Pistol, unless you feel like going crazy and throwing a Power Fist and Plasma Pistol on him or the like, but at that point you have a single expensive model that you could instead have brought even more infantry with.


Then, throw in Leadership debuffs, and Commissars can actively start to make things worse for you.


At this point, probably the simplest solution would either be the above one of Execution turning die roll into a 1, or just having the rule reduce casualties by 1d3 - that way it never actively hurts you, the worst you get is breaking even, and you still have a 2 in 3 chance of it benefiting you.

Yes, for the fifty millionth time in this thread, the commissar does provide *some* benefit to non-conscript units. He provides a +1LD buff which drops off to a null benefit over 5 casualties. No, there will not be a value of casualties where not having a commissar at all is better than having a commissar.

What I have been trying to explain is that Summary Execution ON ITS OWN is NOT A BENEFICIAL RULE. Listing the re-roll from summary execution as a bonus thing that the commissar does is like listing Gets Hot as a bonus rule that you get with a plasma gun.

The math is not actually difficult to do. The math you linked earlier in the thread was comparing no commissar to having a commissar.

The reason why this is important is because the Guard have another morale buff available, the Regimental Standard. It is five points to the commissar's 30. As it stands, turning Summary Execution from an additional beneficial rule to a malus, the alternative of the standard is always superior to the commissar for any unit that starts at LD7 (non-conscripts).

the_scotsman wrote:
Yes, for the fifty millionth time in this thread, the commissar does provide *some* benefit to non-conscript units. He provides a +1LD buff which drops off to a null benefit over 5 casualties. No, there will not be a value of casualties where not having a commissar at all is better than having a commissar.

What I have been trying to explain is that Summary Execution ON ITS OWN is NOT A BENEFICIAL RULE. Listing the re-roll from summary execution as a bonus thing that the commissar does is like listing Gets Hot as a bonus rule that you get with a plasma gun.

The math is not actually difficult to do. The math you linked earlier in the thread was comparing no commissar to having a commissar.

The reason why this is important is because the Guard have another morale buff available, the Regimental Standard. It is five points to the commissar's 30. As it stands, turning Summary Execution from an additional beneficial rule to a malus, the alternative of the standard is always superior to the commissar for any unit that starts at LD7 (non-conscripts).

Many units in the history of games have not been as good as another option.

Compared to the state Commissars were before where they were simply to much this is acceptable.

 Crazyterran wrote:
commissars already reduce the amount of casualties conscripts take by 4/5, and also give a reroll to failed morale tests.

Pretty good for 30 points.

If someone shoots twenty models worth three points off the table, it should be pretty good for you even if the other ten run for it. That's what, two or three twin assault cannons used for 90 points lost? Then your stuff that actually does damage gets to reply.

Conscripts were stupid before. They won't revert the change, since commissars work fine for other units, buffing leadership and giving you a reroll to ten men infantry squads. For thirty points.

The change will stand.

The complaint isn't about running commisars with conscripts. Conscript blob lists, the few people still running them, can still make use of commisars and work. It's the rest of the Astra Militarum that is struggling with the change. Double tapping commisars are doing more damage to infantry squads than a normal failed morale check is. If the change had been restricited to just conscripts it wouldn't have been a problem.

If the goal is to move AM players away conscript blobs this wasn't the way to do it.

Just use 10 man squads and accept that a unit made of 4 point models is easy to remove. They are actually far more effective than a 4 point model should be already.

Martel732 wrote:
Just use 10 man squads and accept that a unit made of 4 point models is easy to remove. They are actually far more effective than a 4 point model should be already.

I use 10 man squads, but I would point out the following:

1) The goal is to have every model be viable. Conscripts are still viable but commisars have been nuked from orbit if you have anything other than a conscript blob. That can't be right
2) This change made conscripts more attractive, not less. I don't think that was the intention

I've removed commissars from my lists after they wiped out the surivors of 10 man squads that would have lived if they'd taken a normal moral test. The conscript player is taking 4. I suspect the next round of tournaments (post-FAQ implementation) will show the same thing.

Cut your losses and use 10 man squads as road blocks and then just write them off. Force idiots like me to charge my BA into a 40 pt squad then just erase them on your turn. After I trade elite infantry for 4 point spankers about 5 times, the game is over.

You don't need a single commissar. You don't need your infantry to kill a single model. You don't need to make a single save. You don't need to pass a single LD check. You just need to BE. And you win. My play is irrelevant.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Just use 10 man squads and accept that a unit made of 4 point models is easy to remove. They are actually far more effective than a 4 point model should be already.

I use 10 man squads, but I would point out the following:

1) The goal is to have every model be viable. Conscripts are still viable but commisars have been nuked from orbit if you have anything other than a conscript blob. That can't be right
2) This change made conscripts more attractive, not less. I don't think that was the intention

I've removed commissars from my lists after they wiped out the surivors of 10 man squads that would have lived if they'd taken a normal moral test. The conscript player is taking 4. I suspect the next round of tournaments (post-FAQ implementation) will show the same thing.

Just run 30 man conscript and use 2 point stratagem to auto pass morale. You have the command points to spare. Just take an infantry 3 more infantry squads instead of the 4 commissars you had - problem solved.

Or that. Or use 10 man squads and literally just not have a care.

I wish I could field:

1 pt WS - BS - S 1 T 1 W 1 Sv - LD 3 models. But guardsmen are pretty close.

Martel732 wrote:
Or that. Or use 10 man squads and literally just not have a care.

I wish I could field:

1 pt WS - BS - S 1 T 1 W 1 Sv - LD 3 models. But guardsmen are pretty close.

Yeah GW certainly isn't charing you enough points for just existing. IMO just existing with a line of flat 1's should cost 3 points. Flat 3's should be 4 points. Having a rapid fire gun 5 points - at the very minimum.

But with GW's logic, I get these guys for 1 pt! I mean, they can't hurt anything, right?

Martel732 wrote:
But with GW's logic, I get these guys for 1 pt! I mean, they can't hurt anything, right?

They do no damage so lets give them a 4++ save. No problem - daemons should have invo saves. Forget the fact that characters become effectively immortal behind them.

Don't worry, the 18 pt sniper models will totally fix that problem.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Just use 10 man squads and accept that a unit made of 4 point models is easy to remove. They are actually far more effective than a 4 point model should be already.

I use 10 man squads, but I would point out the following:

1) The goal is to have every model be viable. Conscripts are still viable but commisars have been nuked from orbit if you have anything other than a conscript blob. That can't be right
2) This change made conscripts more attractive, not less. I don't think that was the intention

I've removed commissars from my lists after they wiped out the surivors of 10 man squads that would have lived if they'd taken a normal moral test. The conscript player is taking 4. I suspect the next round of tournaments (post-FAQ implementation) will show the same thing.

Just run 30 man conscript and use 2 point stratagem to auto pass morale. You have the command points to spare. Just take an infantry 3 more infantry squads instead of the 4 commissars you had - problem solved.

Well that works so long as I run a single 30 man conscript blob. Since I need 6 squads to get brigade that's a hell of a lot of CP you are asking me to spend a turn on a unit that's not even as effective as chaos cultists.

At least you have the option.

Martel732 wrote:
Just use 10 man squads and accept that a unit made of 4 point models is easy to remove. They are actually far more effective than a 4 point model should be already.

It occurred to me why that is. It's all based around a d6, and their stats are basically marines -1 (3 instead of 4). Which is a 16.5% reduction in quality when competing with a marine (1/6 = ~16.5%). But their price is >66% less than a marine. So they're paying drastically less than a marine for a 16.5% reduction in performance in any given stat.

 Torga_DW wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Just use 10 man squads and accept that a unit made of 4 point models is easy to remove. They are actually far more effective than a 4 point model should be already.

It occurred to me why that is. It's all based around a d6, and their stats are basically marines -1 (3 instead of 4). Which is a 16.5% reduction in quality when competing with a marine (1/6 = ~16.5%). But their price is >66% less than a marine. So they're paying drastically less than a marine for a 16.5% reduction in performance in any given stat.

But 4 down to 3 is a 25% reduction. And Guard don't have power armour.

Tygre wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Just use 10 man squads and accept that a unit made of 4 point models is easy to remove. They are actually far more effective than a 4 point model should be already.

It occurred to me why that is. It's all based around a d6, and their stats are basically marines -1 (3 instead of 4). Which is a 16.5% reduction in quality when competing with a marine (1/6 = ~16.5%). But their price is >66% less than a marine. So they're paying drastically less than a marine for a 16.5% reduction in performance in any given stat.

But 4 down to 3 is a 25% reduction. And Guard don't have power armour.

That isn't how math works; going from a 4 to a 3 is a ~16% difference, it's a dice. Further the real problem is breakpoints, S4, S7, S9, are the most important thresholds because they start wounding the most common T. IG lasguns don't hit that breakpoint because they make up for it statistically in other ways like numbers. IG in theory, practice, and design are supposed to be effective because they defeat their opponents through numbers.

Which goes to mess with an edition that doesn't scale properly with model count. Which is why people hated conscripts. IG are still in a pretty good spot. It isn't going to change unless Orks get a Greentide unit more effective than what they already have. Which ISN'T what they need, they need point reductions on everything BUT their boys.