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That is how the maths worked.

If you go from hitting 4 times out of 6 to 3 times out of 6 you aren't hitting 16% less you're hitting 25% less.

The change in probability is 16% but the reduction in effectiveness is 25%.

Armour is even worse - the difference between 5+ and 3+ is much more than 33%. Not only has your ability to save been halved but weapons that don't allow you to save are vastly more plentiful.

This is vital to understand in an edition with modifiers - the effect of modifiers is not linear. - 1 to hit costs a marine 25% of his shooting but costs an Ork 50%.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

This is vital to understand in an edition with modifiers - the effect of modifiers is not linear. - 1 to hit costs a marine 25% of his shooting but costs an Ork 50%.

A bit hard to follow but effectively valid. Using the 216 method it's easier to see this in action. The average points that has to be dumped in conscripts to kill a marine out of orders and rapid fire is 81, or 27 conscripts. Modify any of the parameters in the marine's favor by 1 and it ends up at 162. This is part of why I hold the Heavy Bolter is so dangerous, because it's effectively reducing almost everything in the game's base survivability by 25%.

It is not accurate to say it reduces almost everything by 25%. A heavy bolter reduces a marine's survivability by 25%. IT reduces a conscripts survivability by 50%

 malamis wrote:
This is part of why I hold the Heavy Bolter is so dangerous, because it's effectively reducing almost everything in the game's base survivability by 25%.

Wrong.

A Heavy Bolter reduces:
2+ save to 3+ save (5/6 to 4/6, 20% reduction in defense)
3+ save to 4+ save (4/6 to 3/6, 25% reduction in defense)
4+ save to 5+ save (3/6 to 2/6, 33% reduction in defense)
5+ save to 6+ save (2/6 to 1/6, 50% reduction in defense)
6+ save to 7+ save (1/6 to 0/6, 100% reduction in defense)

Notice how these numbers become much bigger the lower your armor gets. Power armor and terminator armor, while effected by armor penetrating weapons more than previous editions, are still better at resisting them than carapace, flak, or ork armor.

Fun fact: terminators in cover ignore heavy bolters' reduction in armor entirely, letting them remain relatively unharmed by them while holding objectives.

 Torga_DW wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Just use 10 man squads and accept that a unit made of 4 point models is easy to remove. They are actually far more effective than a 4 point model should be already.

It occurred to me why that is. It's all based around a d6, and their stats are basically marines -1 (3 instead of 4). Which is a 16.5% reduction in quality when competing with a marine (1/6 = ~16.5%). But their price is >66% less than a marine. So they're paying drastically less than a marine for a 16.5% reduction in performance in any given stat.

to add to the other people arguing the math here, it's not just the reduction in any one stat, it's all of them combined. Guardsmen have 1 lower stat in everything than an SM (except Sv which is 2 different). This doesnt mean they are only 1 stat point different because these all interact and stack with each other.

A guardsmen missing 50% of shots instead of 33% isnt just a 16.6 point spread. Those stats carry through every step of that shooting process, such that it takes 18 Guardsmen lasgun shots to average one dead Space Marine, versus 3.375 Space Marine bolter shots to kill a guardsmen, an almost 600% differencr in casualty output. Those small differences stack up to make huge result changes real quick, hence the cost disparity.

 Melissia wrote:

 malamis wrote:
This is part of why I hold the Heavy Bolter is so dangerous, because it's effectively reducing almost everything in the game's base survivability by 25%.

Wrong.

A Heavy Bolter reduces:
2+ save to 3+ save (5/6 to 4/6, 20% reduction in defense)
3+ save to 4+ save (4/6 to 3/6, 25% reduction in defense)
4+ save to 5+ save (3/6 to 2/6, 33% reduction in defense)
5+ save to 6+ save (2/6 to 1/6, 50% reduction in defense)
6+ save to 7+ save (1/6 to 0/6, 100% reduction in defense)

Notice how these numbers become much bigger the lower your armor gets. Power armor and terminator armor, while effected by armor penetrating weapons more than previous editions, are still better at resisting them than carapace, flak, or ork armor.

Fun fact: terminators in cover ignore heavy bolters' reduction in armor entirely, letting them remain relatively unharmed by them while holding objectives.

Which only matters if the units are costed correctly. Nobody cares if a Conscript is 50% less durable than before because there is 4 for every Marine.

As has been mentioned before, the decreased stats across the board make the IG...

3/4 BS * 3/4 S = 9/16 offensive value

3/4 T * 2/4 Sv = 6/16 defensive value

If you average their value, you'd be looking at 15/32 combined value, or 47% value... comparing only those two considerations.

Arguably, the improved WS value of the SM is an improvement over the IG, and the overall viability of their CC potential has value. If we consider this to be worth half of the offensive difference, we'd be looking at 7/8 value in the IG... so about 41% the value of a Marine.

Chapter Tactics vs IG Orders? Hard to pin down, I'd call it a wash. You build an SM list to max benefit from the CT, but the IG have a variety of Orders to benefit their weaker units as needed.


I agree that IG Infantry squad grunts should be worth 5 points each, rather than 4, and I believe Conscripts should be flat-out removed, but 4 pts each would be better balance as the 41% value was relative to an Infantry guy vs Marine, not Conscript vs Marine. Conscripts should be roughly 33% of the cost of a Marine.

"Wrong.

A Heavy Bolter reduces:
2+ save to 3+ save (5/6 to 4/6, 20% reduction in defense)
3+ save to 4+ save (4/6 to 3/6, 25% reduction in defense)
4+ save to 5+ save (3/6 to 2/6, 33% reduction in defense)
5+ save to 6+ save (2/6 to 1/6, 50% reduction in defense)
6+ save to 7+ save (1/6 to 0/6, 100% reduction in defense)"

This is one way to spin the math. It's meant to tell the tale that the poster wants to tell. It's not the most relevant math, though.

The real tale is here that matters for marine players is this:

-1 AP DOUBLES casualties for 2+ armor models.

It increases casualties by 50% for 3+ armor models.

We care about models being picked up, NOT reduction in resistance. I don't think that getting to save lascannons on a 6+ makes up for this phenomenon, but being in cover certainly does. Hence, the rise of the coward marines.

Also, IG infantry are priced to just be speed bumps for the big guns. They don't need to have guns. They don't need to live. They don't need to pass armor saves. They don't need to pass morale. They just need to be. Minimal investments are the path to success in this edition. IG undercuts the marines, game, set, match.

 greatbigtree wrote:
As has been mentioned before, the decreased stats across the board make the IG...

3/4 BS * 3/4 S = 9/16 offensive value

3/4 T * 2/4 Sv = 6/16 defensive value

That's not how those stats work...they arent directly fractional relationships like that. Comparing them that way doesn't reflect the actual performance.

 greatbigtree wrote:
As has been mentioned before, the decreased stats across the board make the IG...

3/4 BS * 3/4 S = 9/16 offensive value

3/4 T * 2/4 Sv = 6/16 defensive value

If you average their value, you'd be looking at 15/32 combined value, or 47% value... comparing only those two considerations.

Arguably, the improved WS value of the SM is an improvement over the IG, and the overall viability of their CC potential has value. If we consider this to be worth half of the offensive difference, we'd be looking at 7/8 value in the IG... so about 41% the value of a Marine.

Chapter Tactics vs IG Orders? Hard to pin down, I'd call it a wash. You build an SM list to max benefit from the CT, but the IG have a variety of Orders to benefit their weaker units as needed.


I agree that IG Infantry squad grunts should be worth 5 points each, rather than 4, and I believe Conscripts should be flat-out removed, but 4 pts each would be better balance as the 41% value was relative to an Infantry guy vs Marine, not Conscript vs Marine. Conscripts should be roughly 33% of the cost of a Marine.

Last I checked...My chapter tactics don't affect my tanks...So it's hardly a wash. Orders are just free BS AM gets for no freaking reason...army traits are capter tactics but better.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
As has been mentioned before, the decreased stats across the board make the IG...

3/4 BS * 3/4 S = 9/16 offensive value

3/4 T * 2/4 Sv = 6/16 defensive value

That's not how those stats work...they arent directly fractional relationships like that. Comparing them that way doesn't reflect the actual performance.

I was going to say... this seems unreliable.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Orders are just free BS AM gets for no freaking reason...

in much the same way Space Marines get ATSKNF and the ability to Deep Strike almost anything that isn't a tank, or that Eldar get Battle Focus, etc. Every army gets a unique mechanic of some sort, for Space Marines it's ATSKNF and wide availability of Deep Striking, for IG it's Orders.

One can argue the relative power of these abilities, especially over different editions, but there *is* a reason they're there.

I think orders are fine. The units receiving them are just too cheap for 8th ed rules.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Last I checked...My chapter tactics don't affect my tanks...So it's hardly a wash. Orders are just free BS AM gets for no freaking reason...army traits are capter tactics but better.

Orders require a character to issue them.

The characters might be cheaper than dirt, but if the characters aren't within their Voice of Command radius or 3" of a Vox-Caster and being issued to a unit with a Vox-Caster? They're not doing anything.

Tanks require a specific type of character(Tank Commander) to be issued Orders and even then it only applies to Leman Russ variants.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Last I checked...My chapter tactics don't affect my tanks...So it's hardly a wash. Orders are just free BS AM gets for no freaking reason...army traits are capter tactics but better.

Orders require a character to issue them.

The characters might be cheaper than dirt, but if the characters aren't within their Voice of Command radius or 3" of a Vox-Caster and being issued to a unit with a Vox-Caster? They're not doing anything.

Tanks require a specific type of character(Tank Commander) to be issued Orders and even then it only applies to Leman Russ variants.

Most the AM army traits have a bonus to their tanks. None of the space marine ones do. They can even give their tanks orders and put commanders to make them shoot as good/better than a space marine - in every LR. It really just seems like the elite army has less elite stuff than mass produced one. It's a dang joke. Space marine tanks are supposed to be more advanced than imperial guard tanks.

3 may be 25% less than 4, but i'd suggest that's a bit of a red herring as far as a percentage goes. It doesn't reflect the odds of making a dice roll. Each pip is a 16.5% increment. I didn't bother adding the numbers for a combined effect but yes, that can and probably should be done. Shooting is to hit and to wound, for 33% worse. Melee is to hit and to wound, for 33% worse. Yes, the save is worse (also interestingly 33%). So even using those aggregates, we still get a similar situation - the model is 33% less effective while costing >66% less in price.

edit: thinking about it, to reach parity, a marine needs to be shooting and fighting in melee every turn to achieve relative performance compared to the prices. Either that, or a guardsman should cost ~33% less than a marine, which would be about 8 points. I find that interesting to think about.

I always viewed Orders as AM's Aura Bonus, but gakky.

Every other character has an "aura bonus" from the lowly Canoness's re-rolling 1s to hit to the monster Guilliman re-rolling everything to ever.

AM have no such aura bonus, but instead get orders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orders are aura bonuses that affect only 1 unit in the Aura rather than all of them (hence the gakky).

It's debatable whether some are better than an aura bonus or not (e.g. re-roll 1s to hit but only in shooting is shittier than the Canoness's, while "Get Back In The Fight" is very good, as is FRFSRF, though FRFSRF is like a more reliable version of the aura bonus from the Space Marine Ancient).

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Last I checked...My chapter tactics don't affect my tanks...So it's hardly a wash. Orders are just free BS AM gets for no freaking reason...army traits are capter tactics but better.

Orders require a character to issue them.

The characters might be cheaper than dirt, but if the characters aren't within their Voice of Command radius or 3" of a Vox-Caster and being issued to a unit with a Vox-Caster? They're not doing anything.

Tanks require a specific type of character(Tank Commander) to be issued Orders and even then it only applies to Leman Russ variants.

Most the AM army traits have a bonus to their tanks. None of the space marine ones do. They can even give their tanks orders and put commanders to make them shoot as good/better than a space marine - in every LR. It really just seems like the elite army has less elite stuff than mass produced one. It's a dang joke. Space marine tanks are supposed to be more advanced than imperial guard tanks.

What if I told you that the IG would get a character that would give ALL the tanks within 6" Fire on my Target - AND that he would be a cheap infantry character you could hide out of LOS instead of a tank you could just target first.

Would you lose your mind? Would that be SO OP?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Last I checked...My chapter tactics don't affect my tanks...So it's hardly a wash. Orders are just free BS AM gets for no freaking reason...army traits are capter tactics but better.

Orders require a character to issue them.

The characters might be cheaper than dirt, but if the characters aren't within their Voice of Command radius or 3" of a Vox-Caster and being issued to a unit with a Vox-Caster? They're not doing anything.

Tanks require a specific type of character(Tank Commander) to be issued Orders and even then it only applies to Leman Russ variants.

Dont bother arguing with him, he's a marine player and you know marine players. Anything they dont get is 'bs'

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Last I checked...My chapter tactics don't affect my tanks...So it's hardly a wash. Orders are just free BS AM gets for no freaking reason...army traits are capter tactics but better.

Orders require a character to issue them.

The characters might be cheaper than dirt, but if the characters aren't within their Voice of Command radius or 3" of a Vox-Caster and being issued to a unit with a Vox-Caster? They're not doing anything.

Tanks require a specific type of character(Tank Commander) to be issued Orders and even then it only applies to Leman Russ variants.

Dont bother arguing with him, he's a marine player and you know marine players. Anything they dont get is 'bs'

Heck, even things that are worse versions of things they do get are gak!

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Last I checked...My chapter tactics don't affect my tanks...So it's hardly a wash. Orders are just free BS AM gets for no freaking reason...army traits are capter tactics but better.

Orders require a character to issue them.

The characters might be cheaper than dirt, but if the characters aren't within their Voice of Command radius or 3" of a Vox-Caster and being issued to a unit with a Vox-Caster? They're not doing anything.

Tanks require a specific type of character(Tank Commander) to be issued Orders and even then it only applies to Leman Russ variants.

Most the AM army traits have a bonus to their tanks. None of the space marine ones do. They can even give their tanks orders and put commanders to make them shoot as good/better than a space marine - in every LR. It really just seems like the elite army has less elite stuff than mass produced one. It's a dang joke. Space marine tanks are supposed to be more advanced than imperial guard tanks.

Space Marine tanks are more advanced. If you look at the pure profile, the SM tanks are faster and have more firepower (4 lascannons vs 1 Vanquisher Cannon, 1 Hull Lascannon, 2 Heavy Bolter Sponsons for the tank destroyer versions of each tank).

The difference is in Doctrine. For the SM, the tanks are just sorta there (I guess. Every time I want to field a Space Marine tank company I get yelled at by SM players that they always have infantry and never field pure tank formations), while the Imperium actively fields massed tank units.

This is reflected in Grinding Advance, where the Leman Russ slows the pace of its advance to enable the gunner to fire more accurately and therefore more often, and in Tank Commanders who can command tanks.

It's worth noting that the SM have a tank commander too - Sgt. Chronus.

"Space Marine tanks are more advanced"

They have sponsons. They are NOT advanced in any sense of the word. Sponsons went out of style in the 1930s.

Martel732 wrote:
"Space Marine tanks are more advanced"

They have sponsons. They are NOT advanced in any sense of the word. Sponsons went out of style in the 1930s.

Because of ergonomic and C&C issues.

With advanced computerization, they're coming back. The BMPT - 1 has sponson mounted automatic grenade launchers for example.

And curiously, the sponsons on the Predator almost look computerized... hmm...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Last I checked...My chapter tactics don't affect my tanks...So it's hardly a wash. Orders are just free BS AM gets for no freaking reason...army traits are capter tactics but better.

Orders require a character to issue them.

The characters might be cheaper than dirt, but if the characters aren't within their Voice of Command radius or 3" of a Vox-Caster and being issued to a unit with a Vox-Caster? They're not doing anything.

Tanks require a specific type of character(Tank Commander) to be issued Orders and even then it only applies to Leman Russ variants.

Most the AM army traits have a bonus to their tanks. None of the space marine ones do. They can even give their tanks orders and put commanders to make them shoot as good/better than a space marine - in every LR. It really just seems like the elite army has less elite stuff than mass produced one. It's a dang joke. Space marine tanks are supposed to be more advanced than imperial guard tanks.

Space Marine tanks are more advanced. If you look at the pure profile, the SM tanks are faster and have more firepower (4 lascannons vs 1 Vanquisher Cannon, 1 Hull Lascannon, 2 Heavy Bolter Sponsons for the tank destroyer versions of each tank).

The difference is in Doctrine. For the SM, the tanks are just sorta there (I guess. Every time I want to field a Space Marine tank company I get yelled at by SM players that they always have infantry and never field pure tank formations), while the Imperium actively fields massed tank units.

This is reflected in Grinding Advance, where the Leman Russ slows the pace of its advance to enable the gunner to fire more accurately and therefore more often, and in Tank Commanders who can command tanks.

It's worth noting that the SM have a tank commander too - Sgt. Chronus.

Can only take 1 chronus. You can take a supreme command of LR commander and have each tank buff the other with reroll 1's. Plus the LR turret is equal to 3 las cannons and you can take hull las cannon. So the lemon clearly has more firepower in commander form. This isn't even factoring in catachen trait or the other one that makes you degrade slower or the 2 plasma cannons or heavy bolters you can add in. Or the +1 toughness. Again. The russ is clearly better than a predator. If marine chapter tactics affected our tanks though it would be a much closer comparison.

Martel732 wrote:
"Space Marine tanks are more advanced"

They have sponsons. They are NOT advanced in any sense of the word. Sponsons went out of style in the 1930s.

And land wars went out of style in at least the 2010s, arguably earlier. Yet we have a game where that's the primary focus.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Space Marine tanks are more advanced"

They have sponsons. They are NOT advanced in any sense of the word. Sponsons went out of style in the 1930s.

Because of ergonomic and C&C issues.

With advanced computerization, they're coming back. The BMPT - 1 has sponson mounted automatic grenade launchers for example.

And curiously, the sponsons on the Predator almost look computerized... hmm...

They have the worst computers ever, then. Their computers are a chapter serf with an abacus.

Well in real life - tanks 1 shot each other and it's a game to acquire the target first. That's who wins the duel. I'm okay with fantasy tanks having fantasy guns. But the elite army should have more advanced weapons.

It would have been a lot cooler if marine preds got the shoot twice with the turret rule and the LR guns were just made crudely stronger (like they add +1 to wound rolls with their turret weapon because their shells are so big) or something like that.

 daedalus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Space Marine tanks are more advanced"

They have sponsons. They are NOT advanced in any sense of the word. Sponsons went out of style in the 1930s.

And land wars went out of style in at least the 2010s, arguably earlier. Yet we have a game where that's the primary focus.

Land war never goes out of style. Everyone was fooled by the period between Napoleon and WWI, but it still came back.

What is even going on in this thread anymore?

Dunno. Someone claimed marine tanks were "advanced". They can't move and shoot effectively and have sponsons. Seems like WWI to me.