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 Nym wrote:
Sorry, I should have said that I was only talking about Ork shooting, not Gretchins.

With that said, even Gretchins or GEQ units right now can have their shooting totally negated by a -3 to-hit modifier. This should not be allowed by the core rules.

Do you mean to say you consider needing to use Gretchin to deal with accuracy issues unacceptable? Because they are there largely to give you an option for when you need quality over quantity, such as again the aforementioned meta with lots of - to hit.

Also, it's very hard to stack bonuses that high across an army. Most of those involve stratagems, psychic powers and chapter tactics. It's likely not something your opponent can do every turn or on more than one maybe two units.

I agree there is a problem. I dont like the solutions to make orks cheaper or ignore modifiers. We already have tons of models on the board as is and to ignore modifiers seems unfair as we would advance all the time with no penalty, making it a no brainer tactical decision.

My idea for solutions are:
-increase rate of fire for overpriced units. rokkit buggies for exampe are now 72 pts. keep that but give them assult 6 instead of assult 2 rokkits.
-give all units in all factions access to "snap fire" as an alternative fire mode, this would only hit on unmodifiable 6 similar to overwatch. Or a rule that state a 6+ is always a hit. Orks need this bad, but to be fair all factions should have this.

 BigmekRatsmek wrote:
For me, the fluff behind the low BS has always been that orks simply don't aim. They just pull the trigger nonstop, sometimes even while pointing in the direction of the enemies. So basically every actual hit is a lucky shot.
Gitfinders for me, are just Placebos, since it only works when an ork stands still and actually aims with his gun instead of viciously swinging it around like a beatstick.

So from a fluffy point of view, I would love if orks wouldn't suffer from any negative mod. to their BS since they never really aim at their opponents (or have it cap at 6+ at least), but I don't know what that would do to balancing.

I really like this idea! Would really fit with Orks IMO. Are there any rumours ref Orks - even when the codex may arrive?

Nothing that I know of. The leak we got that has been ballpark correct in order of codices didn't go past tyranids if I recall.

Orks, demons, dark angels and thousand sons are the four I keep seeing mentioned as potential releases to finish off 2017, but nothing concrete.

It was pretty obvious from the start of 8th that GW intends for orks to be a one dimensional CC horde. There is no way to fix that without breaking the game.
You cant put a points value on -1 to hit when it has such different effect on BS 3+ units and BS 5+ units, its impossible to balance!

We will get a codex sometime next year and it wont fix a singe thing. Orks are dead.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I still vote for adding in the rule that "Orks shooting cannot be affected by modifiers" thing. Considering they're not actually aiming and are just wildly firing at the enemy, even expert stealth should be rendered moot (you basically are hitting them by accident already, so whether or not they're hard to see is out of the question).

But then the question comes to why isn't that a rule for everyone/everything described as firing massive quantities of ammunition at a target...

Here's how I'd do this:

Complimentary Dakka
For every 10 models in the unit firing at the same target, you can add +1 to your Hit rolls.

This means that Orks firing lots of dakka at a single unit would get bonuses based on the size of the Mob. It also means that the effectiveness goes down when the unit loses Boyz, since they're not adding to the weight of fire and the Boyz are starting to be less competitive because there's not as many people making a ruckus.

Name could use some work of course, but I could see that being an elegant solution while not just hamfistedly removing the benefits that units like the Ghostkeel and Stealth Suits or Alpha Legion/Raven Guard/Stygies/Alaitoc should be getting.

The issue with that rule is that it means that 30 boy mobs would hit on a 2+, and would be worse in general for those units in question than the un-modified 5+ would be.

It also would not really help the units that need it most (ork shooting units) as they really don't have squad sizes of more than 15. So it would make Boyz even more the best unit the orks have.

I think a rule just stating that for all units in the game a 6+ always hits would be the best fix. That way units still get a benefit from their rules, but it limits stacking things to the point where units are immune to shooting.

fe40k wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:

 Orock wrote:
No idea what can be done about this.

A good start would be to give orks any other option than massing boyz. Its literally all orks have going for them atm. Nearly every unit in the codex needs a points reduction. Ork vehicles specifically need anywhere between 30-50% points reduction on nearly every entry. Ork shooting has always been pretty awful. In 8th its even worse with the loss of templates & modifiers you mentioned. Hopefully with the codex release GW comes to its senses & makes the changes that are necessary. I don't play orks, but I'd love to see them become a very competitive army.

+

Blackie wrote:I've always thought since 8th edition dropped that orks just need to have 90% of the units and wargear cut by half. Boyz are fine, but pretty much everything else should be way cheaper than now.

Both of these. Ork units are BS5+, AND have worse guns across the board than other armies - but pay MORE points per gun. Orks are the horde army - they're supposed to be bad at shooting and vehicles (in terms of durability and proficiency), but make it up my just having MORE of everything; more vehicles, more shots, etc.

At the moment, Imperial weapons are cheaper, better, but more importantly; put out more shots - period (Looking at you BS2/3/4+ Heavy20 Punisher Cannon (and that's not even with the Grinding Advance rule)/12 shot Assault Cannons). I don't mind their guns/BS being better, but I do mind having less dice [this is the huge one for me [Orks are the "gak-tons of dice" army]] AND being more expensive on top of it.

shortymcnostrill wrote:In 2nd edition there were hit modifiers too, but the standard ork boy hit on a 4+ so it wasn't that big of a deal. Now a -1 to hit costs you 50% of your expected damage, and a -2 to hit 100%. I don't see orks going back to bs4+ since them being bad shots has become so ingrained in the fluff (that would be quite the retcon).

I hope they gain a "always hits on x+" or maybe a +x to hit when stationary rule. Until that happens ork shooting is, unfortunately, completely useless.

The thing is, Orks aren't particularly bad at shooting - most prefer the way of the Choppa; that, coupled with the fact that they care more about the sound/maximum dakka, and less about actually hitting the target, means they tend to not be represented as accurately. There are entire clans/lifestyles centered around the way of the dakka [hell, this name of this site is based around the word, and the term "Dakka" in general, was coined due to the massive quantities of Ork shooting].

That said, BS5+ is their identity at this point, and it's fair enough, plus differentiates them on the table; a rule I keep seeing pop-up as proposed is "Orks always hit on a 5+" - they don't care about what anyone's doing (evasive maneuvers, hiding, etc), and care more about outputting massive amounts of lead; they keep the generally bad shooting odds, but don't get completely screwed over by -1/-2 to hit modifiers.

Other armies are supposed to be envious of the amount of shots an Ork unit can put out; not the other way around.

I love the idea of "always hits on 5+" for orks. I feel its fluffy as in most lost they seem to just spray bullets in the general direction of the fight or simple as many bullets at the target in general. I feel like this would also be great for the meta because -1 or -2 to hit can ruin a faction (so is very useful) but then there is a clear disadvantage when you come up against orks having that be the centerpiece of your army. I feel like the game needs more counter like this so that in tournament play there are clear anti meta lists/ armies that can be taken and it would discourage people from putting all their eggs in one basket. Its not too powerful, it fits the fluff and it allows counter play so i would love to see it.

They could do a all Orks cant be modified past 6+ to hit, but there could be a Ork <Clan> that is range weapons focus and cant be modified past 5+, this would be neat IMO.

Breng77 wrote:
The issue with that rule is that it means that 30 boy mobs would hit on a 2+, and would be worse in general for those units in question than the un-modified 5+ would be.

It also would not really help the units that need it most (ork shooting units) as they really don't have squad sizes of more than 15. So it would make Boyz even more the best unit the orks have.

I think a rule just stating that for all units in the game a 6+ always hits would be the best fix. That way units still get a benefit from their rules, but it limits stacking things to the point where units are immune to shooting.

I kept swinging between 10/15 for the modifier to take place.

Of course it could always just be added to the shooty units themselves and then be modified to +1/5.

Like I said though, I feel like it's a bit of a slippery slope as to "Why do Orks get this benefit but literally nobody else who does the exact same thing have it?".

The Hydra Flak Tank, for example, is described as firing non-stop curtains of autocannon fire...but hits on a 4+ against Flyers and 5+ against ground targets? You'd think that if it brought its guns to bear on ground targets, you'd still be firing non-stop curtains of autocannon fire.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
They could do a all Orks cant be modified past 6+ to hit, but there could be a Ork <Clan> that is range weapons focus and cant be modified past 5+, this would be neat IMO.

On second thought that might be an even better option. I like the idea of having different styles of play within the same army as this adds diversity and counter play leading to a less stale meta. Its one of the reasons I really disliked the FAQ on IG "send in the next wave" because I feel like they were meant to be that "tanky" side of IG (tough tanks/ more bodies) rather than which IG faction can gun line the best. It's no different than popular card games like Hearthstone or MTG. The more varied and useful types of decks per class the more diverse the Meta is and it pushes people away from building decks that are only good at a single thing. You obviously need to have a focus but it encourages you to take x unit/card that can increase your win rate against certain types of armies/decks.

So IMO Orks should always be a horde/cheap unit army but can have various clans that excel at lots of shooting/ all CC/ weird boy trickery ect.

Or since everyone is metagaming a legion trait to get -1 to hit, Orks could get a warband trait that is +1 to BS.

Now everything is back to normal and Orks still can't shoot planes as usual.

Asmodios wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
They could do a all Orks cant be modified past 6+ to hit, but there could be a Ork <Clan> that is range weapons focus and cant be modified past 5+, this would be neat IMO.

On second thought that might be an even better option. I like the idea of having different styles of play within the same army as this adds diversity and counter play leading to a less stale meta. Its one of the reasons I really disliked the FAQ on IG "send in the next wave" because I feel like they were meant to be that "tanky" side of IG (tough tanks/ more bodies) rather than which IG faction can gun line the best. It's no different than popular card games like Hearthstone or MTG. The more varied and useful types of decks per class the more diverse the Meta is and it pushes people away from building decks that are only good at a single thing. You obviously need to have a focus but it encourages you to take x unit/card that can increase your win rate against certain types of armies/decks.

So IMO Orks should always be a horde/cheap unit army but can have various clans that excel at lots of shooting/ all CC/ weird boy trickery ect.

Agreed - it's a good middle ground, and allows for specialization in shooting, versus other aspects.

EDIT: me. I got stuck thinking Shootas were 3 shots instead of 2 (Big Shootas)... still, the concept is there. :3 I'm a runty squig.

The real issue here is:

Space Marine: Bolter, 2 shots, BS3+ = 1.3 hits (Max 2)
Shoota Boy: Shoota, 3 shots, BS5+ = 1 hit (Max 3)

These are fine numbers - the Space Marine will more reliably get his 1-2 hits, while the Ork can whiff all his attacks (landing 0-1 most likely), but also spike above the norm with a lot of luck; this is what makes Ork shooting so much fun, as an Ork player - I know on average that I'll be less effective (as I should be), but I can hope to get real lucky [the thrill of gambling, with none of the risk (in a non-tournament setting :p)]. -- Orks depend on the law of averages, whereas other armies rely on their stats (4+ to hit models rely a little on both).

Extrapolating that to comparable platforms...

SM Razorback: AC, 12 shots, BS3+ = 8 hits (7.992, Max 12).
AM Leman Russ: Punisher Cannon, 20/40 shots, BS4+ = 10/20 hits (Max 20/40)

Ork weapons should look like...

Ork Razorback: 24 shots, BS5+ = 8 hits (Max 24)
Ork Leman Russ: 30/60 shots, BS5+ = 10/20 hits (Max 30/60).

Points costs, special rules, and chapter tactics would make up the differences between models equipped with this weaponry. Yes, Orks can spike very high; but they can also spike very low, on average.

Gun-line orks should be a viable army. - And before you bring up "but orks are good in melee!", keep in mind the sentence above - Points costs, special rules, chapter tactics; also, Orks have very poor armor and toughness; those would be other factors in these comparisons as well.

Compare the numbers above to our weapon/vehicle profiles and costs, and you'll see just how undergunned Orks (Dakkajet excluded ) really are - and that's before any negative to hit modifiers...

Gretchin models could also have weapons of similar average hit rations - trading the ability to spike higher for a more reliable shooting phase; at the cost of the rest of their statline (S2, T2, Sv6+, A1; for BS4+ instead of 5+).

Also, we need Gretchin snipers - make them Ratlings; but replacing "Shoot and Scurry" with "Good at hiding" (ala Big Guns) - or some other rule that helps keep them safe.

Breng77 wrote:


Here's how I'd do this:

Breng77 wrote:
Complimentary Dakka
For every 10 models in the unit firing at the same target, you can add +1 to your Hit rolls.

The issue with that rule is that it means that 30 boy mobs would hit on a 2+, and would be worse in general for those units in question than the un-modified 5+ would be.

It also would not really help the units that need it most (ork shooting units) as they really don't have squad sizes of more than 15. So it would make Boyz even more the best unit the orks have.

I think a rule just stating that for all units in the game a 6+ always hits would be the best fix. That way units still get a benefit from their rules, but it limits stacking things to the point where units are immune to shooting.

Call it "Dakka Stacka"?

 Arkaine wrote:
Or since everyone is metagaming a legion trait to get -1 to hit, Orks could get a warband trait that is +1 to BS.

Now everything is back to normal and Orks still can't shoot planes as usual.

I could see this.

"More Dakka: Bad Moon Orks have more wealth than other klans, and they use this wealth to customize their shootas, guns and other gubbinz. As a result they add +1 to their BS when firing". Even if it was just at units outside of 12" it might be useful.

Barring a major codex re-write though I suspect Blood Axes getting a -1 to hit outside of 12" of their own would be more attractive.

The simple solution would be to make melee actually effective and possible.

Orks transports should be able to carry more Boyz. Dedicated transports, not a heavy support, which carries 25 Boyz not something lame like 12.

I would also give Orks the option to disembark AFTER a transport has moved, but suffer D6 casualties. Call it "No Seatbelts" or something.

Also, when a squad falls back from combat with Orks, the Ork player can "melee overwatch" hitting on 6s.

Some of these might make sense as command point options/ stratagems but i think they'd really help.

My personal view is that chainswords and choppas should be AP-1. It's tough to get into melee in the first place.

@fe40k dude, ork shootas are assault 2 18". We have the same number of shots as a space marine.

Orks are basically the worst faction in 40k. When you play space marines you pick the lore that best suits you. Want shooting army then go for iron hand or dark angels! Want a close combat army? Go for space wolves or blood angels. The models are effectively the same but the lore changes how they play and how the player plays them. Orks on the other hand don't have this as we are forced to play how gw wants us to play (at least other factions have allies that let you pick how you want to play). Gw in all their stupid tactics made orks seem 1 dimensional and ruined how everyone perceives us. Everyone looks at an ork the same and sees it as a dumb funny green thing that likes to hit things... Apart from they are not! Orks have just as much diversity as the marine chapters! We have klans, all with their own unique set of traits, beliefs, way of living and way of fighting. Some orks, blood axes for example, genuinely train using military tactics and organisation! If Orks were represented on the table top as they were in the lore their codex and index wouod have been like the space marine one. Each klan would have unique rules, characters, units and equipment!

A Evil sunz boy does not hit as hard as a goff boy but a goff biker does not move as fast as a Evil Sunz biker. A Bad Moon Ork has better equipment than a Blood Axe boy but the Blood Axe boy has better training and better tactics.... an so on... orks are so misunderstood by years of neglect by GW in their lazy rule writing.

It's the most heart breaking thing to spend months or hears building an ork army that fits your personality only to have them washed into a general pile. My Evil Sunz Orks play like any other Ork army now... Imagine if Dark Angels players were suddenly told their terminators were just normal terminators with no special characters or anything.

I wouldn't say Orks are the worst faction. Overall in ITC they're doing better than quite a few, including most marine factions that don't have a super HQ bubble. Although this includes RTT.

What really kills Orks is the Imperium Soup, because everyone can take the single best anti-melee walling unit in the game, or equivalent for Chaos.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Reduce all cost on Guns, vehicles and every unit other than Boyz and make Orks never hit worst than a 6+ no matter what.

I think capping the to-hit at 6+ is fair game-wide. It doesn't seem fair to have units that literally cannot be shot at, and eldar can apparently stack several -1 sources.

Or maybe you cap the to hit at 6+ if you don't move. It might not be fair to abuse the 'always hit on 6s' if someone is, say, advancing and shooting, or moving with a heavy weapon and shooting at a flyer because they know they can't be penalized further.

Still, the answer does seem to be just use mek gunz. I'm not a big fan of lootas or tankbustas anymore, as cover saves are basically useless for them, and vehicles are too expensive for what you get. KMKs are just all-around solid.

 Marmatag wrote:
I wouldn't say Orks are the worst faction. Overall in ITC they're doing better than quite a few, including most marine factions that don't have a super HQ bubble. Although this includes RTT.

What really kills Orks is the Imperium Soup, because everyone can take the single best anti-melee walling unit in the game, or equivalent for Chaos.

I don't mean worse in how they play, i mean worse in how gw has dumbed them down into just orks.... nothing is special about them they're just the enemy of the imperium! It feels like we've been written by an imperial scout who doesn't understand ork society than an actual ork. At least Eldar have a huge list of factions to pick from each with their own style. Right now they're is next to no reason to have the tag <klan> in our keywords.

 lolman1c wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I wouldn't say Orks are the worst faction. Overall in ITC they're doing better than quite a few, including most marine factions that don't have a super HQ bubble. Although this includes RTT.

What really kills Orks is the Imperium Soup, because everyone can take the single best anti-melee walling unit in the game, or equivalent for Chaos.

I don't mean worse in how they play, i mean worse in how gw has dumbed them down into just orks.... nothing is special about them they're just the enemy of the imperium! It feels like we've been written by an imperial scout who doesn't understand ork society than an actual ork. At least Eldar have a huge list of factions to pick from each with their own style. Right now they're is next to no reason to have the tag <klan> in our keywords.

Essentially, it feels like they've dumbed down the entire Ork Faction to just Boyz Boyz Boyz in how everything works. No Nuance or anything of that sort otherwise.

I wouldn't mind the return of that Bad Moonz overlord who shot as well as Space Marines!

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Reduce all cost on Guns, vehicles and every unit other than Boyz and make Orks never hit worst than a 6+ no matter what.

I think capping the to-hit at 6+ is fair game-wide. It doesn't seem fair to have units that literally cannot be shot at, and eldar can apparently stack several -1 sources.

Or maybe you cap the to hit at 6+ if you don't move. It might not be fair to abuse the 'always hit on 6s' if someone is, say, advancing and shooting, or moving with a heavy weapon and shooting at a flyer because they know they can't be penalized further.

Still, the answer does seem to be just use mek gunz. I'm not a big fan of lootas or tankbustas anymore, as cover saves are basically useless for them, and vehicles are too expensive for what you get. KMKs are just all-around solid.

Dude.... we're hitting on 6s.... any "abuse" wouldn't make us op at all! Other factions can advance and fire heavy weapons right now. XD

 lolman1c wrote:
@fe40k dude, ork shootas are assault 2 18". We have the same number of shots as a space marine.

Orks are basically the worst faction in 40k. When you play space marines you pick the lore that best suits you. Want shooting army then go for iron hand or dark angels! Want a close combat army? Go for space wolves or blood angels. The models are effectively the same but the lore changes how they play and how the player plays them. Orks on the other hand don't have this as we are forced to play how gw wants us to play (at least other factions have allies that let you pick how you want to play). Gw in all their stupid tactics made orks seem 1 dimensional and ruined how everyone perceives us. Everyone looks at an ork the same and sees it as a dumb funny green thing that likes to hit things... Apart from they are not! Orks have just as much diversity as the marine chapters! We have klans, all with their own unique set of traits, beliefs, way of living and way of fighting. Some orks, blood axes for example, genuinely train using military tactics and organisation! If Orks were represented on the table top as they were in the lore their codex and index wouod have been like the space marine one. Each klan would have unique rules, characters, units and equipment!

A Evil sunz boy does not hit as hard as a goff boy but a goff biker does not move as fast as a Evil Sunz biker. A Bad Moon Ork has better equipment than a Blood Axe boy but the Blood Axe boy has better training and better tactics.... an so on... orks are so misunderstood by years of neglect by GW in their lazy rule writing.

It's the most heart breaking thing to spend months or hears building an ork army that fits your personality only to have them washed into a general pile. My Evil Sunz Orks play like any other Ork army now... Imagine if Dark Angels players were suddenly told their terminators were just normal terminators with no special characters or anything.

lmao - I'm a runty squig; I shoulda known better (even doubly so since Shoota Boyz iz my favorite). I guess I was stuck thinking of Big Shootas (and the fact that 3 shots at BS5+ vs 2 shots at BS3+ makes enough sense balance-wise (until you compare squad sizes)) - but that would just be unbalanced.

Ok, I can admit I fethed up - the numbers did sound a bit high as I was typing them, but I was like "eh, feth it".

Regarding the different types of marines - I feel Chapters should just be a color of paint on your model - a marine is a marine, and they should play relatively similar; that said, certain Chapters/Tactics would lend themselves to benefiting different models in the army, and changing up the playstyle/stats a bit -- but having entirely different models/units per Chapter seems... unorthodox? I get that chapters adapt, but it almost feels like heresy, the number of differences between each chapter.

That said, I'm in complete agreement about the Klans - and not just because SM get their cake and eat it too (Chapters). You're completely right, Ork klans should feel like they actually play different when they hit the tabletop; instead of just a different coat of paint. Also agreed that most people look at an Ork and think "Dumb, avoid in close combat, can't shoot, next" - there's seriously so many varieties of Orks and tactiks (at least in the lore), but none of them get play; that said, this isn't limited to just Orks... every faction that isn't Space Marines/Astra Militarum is entirely underrepresented in their lore, when it come to tabletop playstyles and options. [That's not a jab at Space Marines either; I think of CSM, and they're missing a lot of playstyles and things, and they're a Marine faction too.]

I'm a 3rd edition player, who quit when 5th came out - Looters and Looted Vehicles were my jam; it was just so much fun to look think about all the options and combinations you could play with (not even from a powergaming standpoint), plus modelling opportunities. - Gimme back my looted tanks, and let me run solid dakka buggies/warbikers.

I played a Looty/Shooty army which included a lot of smaller vehicles (buggies), and a few looted tanks - I'd love if I didn't feel like I was shooting myself (and my chances to win) instead of my enemy by trying to build around that. Deff Skullz (the lootiest!) and Blood Axes (the most unconventional in tactics and outfits), WAAAGH!

Seriously though, the lore is incredible for the Klans, and provides SO many opportunities for differentiation. Shame it hasn't been represented at all.

Edit: Damn, I really want Klan Codex's - that'd be amazing, and would really feel like you're bringing the Boyz together and leading a warband of your own when you mix the klans. Plus, we'd get access to some allies finally!

fe40k wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
@fe40k dude, ork shootas are assault 2 18". We have the same number of shots as a space marine.

Orks are basically the worst faction in 40k. When you play space marines you pick the lore that best suits you. Want shooting army then go for iron hand or dark angels! Want a close combat army? Go for space wolves or blood angels. The models are effectively the same but the lore changes how they play and how the player plays them. Orks on the other hand don't have this as we are forced to play how gw wants us to play (at least other factions have allies that let you pick how you want to play). Gw in all their stupid tactics made orks seem 1 dimensional and ruined how everyone perceives us. Everyone looks at an ork the same and sees it as a dumb funny green thing that likes to hit things... Apart from they are not! Orks have just as much diversity as the marine chapters! We have klans, all with their own unique set of traits, beliefs, way of living and way of fighting. Some orks, blood axes for example, genuinely train using military tactics and organisation! If Orks were represented on the table top as they were in the lore their codex and index wouod have been like the space marine one. Each klan would have unique rules, characters, units and equipment!

A Evil sunz boy does not hit as hard as a goff boy but a goff biker does not move as fast as a Evil Sunz biker. A Bad Moon Ork has better equipment than a Blood Axe boy but the Blood Axe boy has better training and better tactics.... an so on... orks are so misunderstood by years of neglect by GW in their lazy rule writing.

It's the most heart breaking thing to spend months or hears building an ork army that fits your personality only to have them washed into a general pile. My Evil Sunz Orks play like any other Ork army now... Imagine if Dark Angels players were suddenly told their terminators were just normal terminators with no special characters or anything.

lmao - I'm a runty squig; I shoulda known better (even doubly so since Shoota Boyz iz my favorite). I guess I was stuck thinking of Big Shootas (and the fact that 3 shots at BS5+ vs 2 shots at BS3+ makes enough sense balance-wise (until you compare squad sizes)) - but that would just be unbalanced.

Ok, I can admit I fethed up - the numbers did sound a bit high as I was typing them, but I was like "eh, feth it".

Regarding the different types of marines - I feel Chapters should just be a color of paint on your model - a marine is a marine, and they should play relatively similar; that said, certain Chapters/Tactics would lend themselves to benefiting different models in the army, and changing up the playstyle/stats a bit -- but having entirely different models/units per Chapter seems... unorthodox? I get that chapters adapt, but it almost feels like heresy, the number of differences between each chapter.

That said, I'm in complete agreement about the Klans - and not just because SM get their cake and eat it too (Chapters). You're completely right, Ork klans should feel like they actually play different when they hit the tabletop; instead of just a different coat of paint. Also agreed that most people look at an Ork and think "Dumb, avoid in close combat, can't shoot, next" - there's seriously so many varieties of Orks and tactiks (at least in the lore), but none of them get play; that said, this isn't limited to just Orks... every faction that isn't Space Marines/Astra Militarum is entirely underrepresented in their lore, when it come to tabletop playstyles and options. [That's not a jab at Space Marines either; I think of CSM, and they're missing a lot of playstyles and things, and they're a Marine faction too.]

I'm a 3rd edition player, who quit when 5th came out - Looters and Looted Vehicles were my jam; it was just so much fun to look think about all the options and combinations you could play with (not even from a powergaming standpoint), plus modelling opportunities. - Gimme back my looted tanks, and let me run solid dakka buggies/warbikers.

I played a Looty/Shooty army which included a lot of smaller vehicles (buggies), and a few looted tanks - I'd love if I didn't feel like I was shooting myself (and my chances to win) instead of my enemy by trying to build around that. Deff Skullz (the lootiest!) and Blood Axes (the most unconventional in tactics and outfits), WAAAGH!

Seriously though, the lore is incredible for the Klans, and provides SO many opportunities for differentiation. Shame it hasn't been represented at all.

Edit: Damn, I really want Klan Codex's - that'd be amazing, and would really feel like you're bringing the Boyz together and leading a warband of your own when you mix the klans. Plus, we'd get access to some allies finally!

Klan Codexes would be really cool. Id love to see some special rules for combining Klans based on which one is the lead bossing the others around. If they did something like this I'd have to build an Ork army in 40k (after swearing I never would after having a 400+ night goblin army in WHFB).

Orks need a buff - I totally and wholeheartedly agree with that statement.

But to me it should be centered around improving tactical effectiveness rather than just "more boyz!" or "better ballistic skill!" Because Orks will never be a shooting army, and you'll never have more bodies than the other horde lists.

I would ALSO say that *all* melee focused armies need a buff.

Orks, Tyranids, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, etc. are all hurting. Although Orks are doing better than the other armies in this list. Truly.

 lolman1c wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I wouldn't say Orks are the worst faction. Overall in ITC they're doing better than quite a few, including most marine factions that don't have a super HQ bubble. Although this includes RTT.

What really kills Orks is the Imperium Soup, because everyone can take the single best anti-melee walling unit in the game, or equivalent for Chaos.

I don't mean worse in how they play, i mean worse in how gw has dumbed them down into just orks.... nothing is special about them they're just the enemy of the imperium! It feels like we've been written by an imperial scout who doesn't understand ork society than an actual ork. At least Eldar have a huge list of factions to pick from each with their own style. Right now they're is next to no reason to have the tag <klan> in our keywords.

Like <Hive Fleet> or <Sept>. When you reveice your codex, you'll receive Klan sub-factions and special rules. This has been confirmed. Of course right now those keywords don't do anything.

 Marmatag wrote:
Orks need a buff - I totally and wholeheartedly agree with that statement.

But to me it should be centered around improving tactical effectiveness rather than just "more boyz!" or "better ballistic skill!" Because Orks will never be a shooting army, and you'll never have more bodies than the other horde lists.

I would ALSO say that *all* melee focused armies need a buff.

Orks, Tyranids, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, etc. are all hurting. Although Orks are doing better than the other armies in this list. Truly.

If you have no shooting element, then what tactics are there, other then "charge!"?

The game's health would be significantly improved if every army could go melee, or shooting, focused - just because you're good at one aspect of the game doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to compete in others (as long as there were positives/negatives for what you were doing) - actually, Chapter/Klan/Craftworld/etc. shouldn't just be a positive, there should be negatives too. [+1X, -1X; +special rule, -special rule; etc, depending on what you chose.] That way, mixing armies could give you different strategic/tactical elements - and if you wanted to run a generic/"unaligned" army, that wouldn't be a penalty either; you'd be more balanced at the cost of specialization.

I will agree though that all melee focused armies do need a buff; close combat doesn't have the reach or effectiveness that shooting does.

 Marmatag wrote:
Orks need a buff - I totally and wholeheartedly agree with that statement.

But to me it should be centered around improving tactical effectiveness rather than just "more boyz!" or "better ballistic skill!" Because Orks will never be a shooting army, and you'll never have more bodies than the other horde lists.

I would ALSO say that *all* melee focused armies need a buff.

Orks, Tyranids, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, etc. are all hurting. Although Orks are doing better than the other armies in this list. Truly.

Orks have many shooting platforms that are not Boyz, those need to be ale to shoot, and as of now with every codex army having a -1 to hit and some with -2 to hit and now Eldar with units that are -3 to hit, they NEED to way to ignore that otherwise they literally can not shoot.

IMO Orks need "If a unit is under 10 models that units shooting can never be modified worst than a 6+ to hit" then with some clans having the same rule but as "Never worst than a 5+"

I think that the game has something fundamentally wrong.

We are yet again advocating a fix that goes around a newly introduced game mechanic.

- We have problems with characters that buff without being targeted
- Template -->d6 transition was so bad that every other army has a rule to go around it
- Pseudo-relentless must be reintroduced otherwise the damage output of bipods and some tank is too low. When is not pseudo-relentless, it's the double shot (that is, too, a way to go around the problem raised in the point immediately above this one).
- Now, multiple stacks of -1 are already going off hand, especially against low BS hit armies
- Corollary: we have to propose another army rule to go against a mechanic shared by many armies

I could be, as usual, exaggeratedly negative but I don't see this go in the right direction.

I'm not here to tell you that Ork shooting is fine. I'm also not going to say all the -1 to hit - that do stack - are positive for the game. Even if you're a marine player, losing -2 to hit is devastating - even moreso than you think - because we pay a premium for our higher ballistic skill, and as an army depend on it far more than you do. The core of my message is that I AGREE, there is a problem here brought on by some of these new rules.

That said, I will not accept the argument that melee has no tactics. Melee tactics are there, the problem right now, is that some armies have tools that render melee tactics completely obsolete. I hate to get into specifics because it will derail a thread, but conscripts negate melee armies. Brimstones negate melee armies. Artillery / shooting without Line of Sight across the map negate melee armies. There are tactical options out there for some of the very powerful meta armies that simply do not allow for tactical melee counterplay.

I see this all the time. I ran (for a while) competitive Grey Knights. I started adding Guard to my list and ultimately realized it would be better if i just dropped the GK completely, because in reality they were NEVER seeing melee with anything. This is frustrating. I am trying to empathize with you: I feel your pain.

But there is a silver lining, in that with some balance, and some stratagems, Orks could be great. Consider the precedent set by some abilities we already know:

1. Alpha legion - pay a command point to redeploy a unit 9" away from an enemy unit. This is done during deployment and can be used multiple times. Imagine this on Boyz. You'd be moving, and 3" charging (with rerolls) with 90 boyz turn 1 with 3 CP spent. Can you argue that wouldn't be a massive game altering buff?

2. Expanded transport options - melee armies depend on vehicles to get them into the fight. Deep strike melee is a recipe for losing competitive games. It doesn't work unless you're dropping a lot of units on the table AND rerolling charges. It's simply far too unreliable and you will eat a lot of overwatch in the process. Better to simply transport up, and then dismount for a more reliable charge. They could easily expand Trukks to carry 25 boyz. That would be a significant boost.

3. Expanded psychic disciplines - you will get 3 more powers, and they could easily be something like, "Get Lucky," improve ballistic skill of a unit within 18" by +2. So, while you don't have predictably accurate shooting, you can have it when it matters.

The list goes on. There are ways to make Orks more playable and tactical without fundamentally adjusting points and other things. And some of this is a precedent based on what we've already seen, and some is just me spitballing ideas.

At the end of the day I do agree with the core idea that you need a buff. I'm also here to tell you that other armies that depend on melee also need a buff, too. Don't forget us when you're good.