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Niiru wrote:
While I agree that the "spray and pray" rule of Orks are never affected by hit modifiers is fluffy, I really don't think it will ever happen, as it would make traits such as Alaitoc and Ravenguard and Alpha legion completely worthless.

While I agree that these traits might well be currently overpowered, having them go from overpowered vs certain armies to being worthless against other armies is not a good balance.

I think the rule where Orks always hit on a 6 is better, as it still means that trait is having an effects, but it also means it goes from being great to simply good, which is much more of a balancing change.

I would even agree that the rule should be universal, and that every army should always hit on a 6. Problem with this is that there is then nothing special to give to orks!

Edit:
However, Ork BS should be awful, and volume of fire is the Orky way to shoot, but another way around this are auto-hit weapons. Burnas, Skorchas, supa-skorcha, are all good and Orky weapons to be using. Right now, these units are more expensive than they should be, but they are likely to get significent points drops in the codex when it eventually turns up.
Maybe even in chapter approved if we're lucky!

Not ok to be worthless: Army trait
Ok to be worthless: Entire armies shooting



The "always hit on a 6+" rule should be a core mechanic. It'd be hilarious if Orks had "Always hits on a 5+" for themselves; that way, the army with the worst shooting would become the army with the best shooting - at least against niche targets that are stacking negative to hit modifiers. Orks don't give a gak about what you're trying to do, they're just going to keep shooting away as they always have.

fe40k wrote:

Niiru wrote:
While I agree that the "spray and pray" rule of Orks are never affected by hit modifiers is fluffy, I really don't think it will ever happen, as it would make traits such as Alaitoc and Ravenguard and Alpha legion completely worthless.

While I agree that these traits might well be currently overpowered, having them go from overpowered vs certain armies to being worthless against other armies is not a good balance.

I think the rule where Orks always hit on a 6 is better, as it still means that trait is having an effects, but it also means it goes from being great to simply good, which is much more of a balancing change.

I would even agree that the rule should be universal, and that every army should always hit on a 6. Problem with this is that there is then nothing special to give to orks!

Edit:
However, Ork BS should be awful, and volume of fire is the Orky way to shoot, but another way around this are auto-hit weapons. Burnas, Skorchas, supa-skorcha, are all good and Orky weapons to be using. Right now, these units are more expensive than they should be, but they are likely to get significent points drops in the codex when it eventually turns up.
Maybe even in chapter approved if we're lucky!

Not ok to be worthless: Army trait
Ok to be worthless: Entire armies shooting

Err... is that a sarcastic thumbs up? I assume so from that you say. Did you read what I wrote? I said that the always hit on 6+ should be in the game... which is exactly what you just said?

I never at any point even suggested Ork shooting should be worthless, I just said that GW would not implement a rule that totally negates a mechanic they only recently implemented. They are much more likely to fix the Ork rules so that they mesh with the new mechanic.

Though Ork shooting should be terrible. They don't aim. There should be a high number of terribly inaccurate shots.

Niiru wrote:
While I agree that the "spray and pray" rule of Orks are never affected by hit modifiers is fluffy, I really don't think it will ever happen, as it would make traits such as Alaitoc and Ravenguard and Alpha legion completely worthless.

Not really. Going from 5+ to hit to 6+ to hit is a 50% reduction in hits. That's massively powerful. The -1 to hit actually hits Orks the hardest, far more than it hits guard or marines or eldar.

They shouldn't allow this 50% reduction in hits to ever become a 100% reduction in hits. They have done so. This is bad game design.

 Melissia wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Meaning Orks really would not have a chance to hit them.

Do Alpha Legion give an additional -1 to hit while in cover?

Cover in 8th increases armor by one, not reduces the shooter's to-hit, unless there's special ruls to modify it (camo cloaks making it +2 to armor)

For some reason, I was under the impression cover added an additional -1 to hit for Alpha Legion.

But you're right, it just gives the +1 to save. Still, it's very hard for Orks to shoot them.

I’m a bit confused. I think you have terms of your arguement off. Orc already hit on a 5+. It takes something like a culexus assassin to make them hit on a 6+. -1 doesn’t affect this, if that is what you are getting at. What orcs can’t do with the basic boyz is hit on a 4+, so -2 to hit can make it so they need a natural 7 but still falls on a 5+ to hit.

 Melissia wrote:

Niiru wrote:
While I agree that the "spray and pray" rule of Orks are never affected by hit modifiers is fluffy, I really don't think it will ever happen, as it would make traits such as Alaitoc and Ravenguard and Alpha legion completely worthless.

Not really. Going from 5+ to hit to 6+ to hit is a 50% reduction in hits. That's massively powerful. The -1 to hit actually hits Orks the hardest, far more than it hits guard or marines or eldar.

They shouldn't allow this 50% reduction in hits to ever become a 100% reduction in hits. They have done so. This is bad game design.

I'm not sure I made myself particularly clear (though I can't imagine how I could have done a better job), but when I said that GW wouldn't make Orks immune to hit modifiers, I meant the idea that had been floated that Orks would always shoot at their normal BS against any army, even if there was a -2 to hit penalty in place. I just don't think it'll happen.

I didn't say that Orks should be made to have a 100% reduction in hits. The exact opposite, in fact, as I said that I thought Orks should always hit on a 6. I then said that maybe this rule should be universal to all armies.

This means that the alaitoc/ravenguard/alpha traits would affects Orks more to start with (a -1 to hit changing a 5+ to a 6+), but if the enemy stacked these buffs to get -2 or -3 to hit, it would actually start to affect orks LESS than other armies (Orks go from 5+ to 6+, while I dunno Necrons go from 4+ to 6+ (I dont know who has a native 4+ BS offhand))

Not sure why everyone is arguing with me as if I'm wrong, and then immediately agreeing with what I actually wrote. I swear stuff like this only happens on the internet.

I’m very confused here, a -1 does not change a 5+ to a 6+. A -1 changes a 6 to a 5, 5 to a 4, 4 to a 3, 3 to a 2, 2 to a 1, and a 1 to a 1.

KTar wrote:
I’m very confused here, a -1 does not change a 5+ to a 6+. A -1 changes a 6 to a 5, 5 to a 4, 4 to a 3, 3 to a 2, 2 to a 1, and a 1 to a 1.

It is a -1 to your roll, so it changes a 6 to a 5 etc. So if you hit on a 5 and roll a 5 -1 = 4 you miss. So you need to roll a 6 to hit.

 Orock wrote:
Fully half of our codex lists can be said to have units based on balistic skill shooting. Without a doubt the most prevalent "chapter tactics" in my local area are the -1 to hit farther than 12 inches away. Ravenguard, alpha legion, stygies admech, tyranids with those character bugs that give an aoe -1 to hit, and now eldar craftworld, and likely in the future tau will have similar, mabye even tyranids. I understand melee is the orks real strength, but our shooting units should not be completely worthless this often. No idea what can be done about this.

paint there guns red and they will shoot better javascript:emoticon('');

javascript:emoticon('');

Breng77 wrote:

KTar wrote:
I’m very confused here, a -1 does not change a 5+ to a 6+. A -1 changes a 6 to a 5, 5 to a 4, 4 to a 3, 3 to a 2, 2 to a 1, and a 1 to a 1.

It is a -1 to your roll, so it changes a 6 to a 5 etc. So if you hit on a 5 and roll a 5 -1 = 4 you miss. So you need to roll a 6 to hit.

Yeh, sorry I am an old school player so I'm more used to referring to WS and BS as 5+ 6+ etc etc. The modifiers change how it works, but the outcome is still that if your BS is 5 and you have a -1 modifier, you need to roll a 6+ to be successful.

Niiru wrote:
I'm not sure I made myself particularly clear

I wasn't objecting to the "I don't think it'll happen" argument. I was objecting to the "it would make alaitoc, raven guard, etc useless!" argument.

Niiru wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Niiru wrote:
While I agree that the "spray and pray" rule of Orks are never affected by hit modifiers is fluffy, I really don't think it will ever happen, as it would make traits such as Alaitoc and Ravenguard and Alpha legion completely worthless.

Not really. Going from 5+ to hit to 6+ to hit is a 50% reduction in hits. That's massively powerful. The -1 to hit actually hits Orks the hardest, far more than it hits guard or marines or eldar.

They shouldn't allow this 50% reduction in hits to ever become a 100% reduction in hits. They have done so. This is bad game design.

I'm not sure I made myself particularly clear (though I can't imagine how I could have done a better job), but when I said that GW wouldn't make Orks immune to hit modifiers, I meant the idea that had been floated that Orks would always shoot at their normal BS against any army, even if there was a -2 to hit penalty in place. I just don't think it'll happen.

I didn't say that Orks should be made to have a 100% reduction in hits. The exact opposite, in fact, as I said that I thought Orks should always hit on a 6. I then said that maybe this rule should be universal to all armies.

This means that the alaitoc/ravenguard/alpha traits would affects Orks more to start with (a -1 to hit changing a 5+ to a 6+), but if the enemy stacked these buffs to get -2 or -3 to hit, it would actually start to affect orks LESS than other armies (Orks go from 5+ to 6+, while I dunno Necrons go from 4+ to 6+ (I dont know who has a native 4+ BS offhand))

Not sure why everyone is arguing with me as if I'm wrong, and then immediately agreeing with what I actually wrote. I swear stuff like this only happens on the internet.

With just text its hard to convey tone so its harder for people to pick up intent of a message and becomes problematic when dealing with things like opinions which are typically nuanced and not hard line yes or no answers.

Having 6's always hit is something that does need to be a core rule but an odd side effect of it would be this weird power curve where -1 to hit hurts Orks the most but Orks would then not care about -2, -3, etc because we hit the bottom first so it stops impacting us (except gets hot but no Ork player in their right mind uses blasta weapons). This whole flat to hit modifier thing is just a problematic core rule and needs to be used sparingly or not at all because GW doesn't seem to have the skill set to design around such things (they don't know how to mathhammer).

 Melissia wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I'm not sure I made myself particularly clear

I wasn't objecting to the "I don't think it'll happen" argument. I was objecting to the "it would make alaitoc, raven guard, etc useless!" argument.

It would not make them useless. It would stop them from being utterly broken against low BS armies.

Niiru wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I'm not sure I made myself particularly clear

I wasn't objecting to the "I don't think it'll happen" argument. I was objecting to the "it would make alaitoc, raven guard, etc useless!" argument.

It would not make them useless. It would stop them from being utterly broken against low BS armies.

I meant that it would make the -trait- useless. As in they would just be a basic Eldar/Chaos/SM army essentially without a trait at all. They would still be good in themselves, as their units aren't terrible with a trait, but they could literally take any other trait in the book and be better if Ork's had that rule that ignored all hit modifiers.

Niiru wrote:
I meant that it would make the -trait- useless.

No, it would not.

The trait would still reduce fire from Orks from hitting on 5 or 6, to only hitting on a 6.

This is massively and indeed insanely powerful. "Oh by the way half of all your hits don't count. Also feth you."

 Melissia wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I meant that it would make the -trait- useless.

No, it would not.

The trait would still reduce fire from Orks from hitting on 5 or 6, to only hitting on a 6.

This is massively and indeed insanely powerful. "Oh by the way half of all your hits don't count. Also feth you."

No no no no no no noonoooooooooooo - you weren't listening!

What I was saying was about the version of the proposed change that meant Orks TOTALLY IGNORE ALL MODIFIERS!

So the trait would do nothing, Orks would hit on a 5+ regardless of any modifiers!

THE GOGGLES, THEY DO NOTHING!!!

Niiru wrote:
What I was saying was about the version of the proposed change that meant Orks TOTALLY IGNORE ALL MODIFIERS!

It appears there's two separate conversations going on here, as I had been arguing for "always hits on a natural 6" for most of the time I've been in this thread.

fe40k wrote:

Again, you're advocating that one armies single trait is more valuable than another armies entire shooting.

Also; so what if a trait is "useless" in ONE particular matchup, out of many possibilities - Imperial Fist's "Ignore Cover" is useless against even more matchups; unless you're Space Marines, you're not getting cover - so... 80% of the game? A trait can have downsides, or bad matchups - if a trait is ALL upside, with no possibility of having a negative - then it needs to be nerfed.

Also, don't forget that Orks DO have BS4+ elements (Grots/Flash Gits/etc); these WOULD suffer the -1, since it's still capped at 5+ with this proposed rule.

I'm not saying that at all though... I'm just pointing out that if the Orks ability to completely ignore hit modifiers was a Klan Trait, then it would likely be the best one (or at least among the best), and so would be used all the time. Which means that anyone who knows they are playing against that Ork Klan would never choose Alpha/Raven/alaitoc as their army trait, because they would know it would be completely pointless to do so.

Which is fine, as it would mean other legions/craftworlds would get used more often, I guess. I just really doubt that, after GW spent a year setting up traits/doctrines/etc, that they would then turn around and go "oh, by the way, 1/6 army traits are now totally irrelevant if you play against Orks".

However, they are MORE LIKELY to put a cap on the modifiers. An Ork Klan trait that means they always hit on a 6+ regardless of modifiers is much more likely than a trait that means they totally ignore modifiers.

Is this fair? Hell if I know. It's just much more likely to happen.

Am I saying Orks shooting should be thrown away in favour of other peoples traits? No, I PLAY AS ORKS!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

Niiru wrote:
What I was saying was about the version of the proposed change that meant Orks TOTALLY IGNORE ALL MODIFIERS!

It appears there's two separate conversations going on here, as I had been arguing for "always hits on a natural 6" for most of the time I've been in this thread.

And I've been agreeing with that the whole time i've been on this thread. Several times I've said so lol. I'm telling the people who things orks should ignore modifiers ENTIRELY that it is wishful thinking and very unlikely to happen as it would cause too many issues with other players army choices.

I apologize for that.

It doesnt make those traits worthless at all, there are still Ork units that hit on 4+ and if they are not that clan or if its just always cant be mod past a 6+ you still are making shoot shooting 50% less effective.

And against Orks right now how they are being played, -1 to hit is literally 100% worthless, b.c no one is playing Shooting Orks, its all melee.

Orks should be IMO the King of Anti Modifiers army, it shouldnt work on them.

If your partly Invisible and gain a -1 to hit, so what, they are still shooting 100 bullets in that general location, they will hit, lol.

Thats part of the fun with Orks, the silliness of them, the spray and pray, and b.c they believe enough, it will work!

 Amishprn86 wrote:
It doesnt make those traits worthless at all, there are still Ork units that hit on 4+ and if they are not that clan or if its just always cant be mod past a 6+ you still are making shoot shooting 50% less effective.

I can only assume you're not reading my post properly... though (without being rude) I suspect English may not be your first language, in which case I'm sorry if I'm being unclear. But the trait would become "useless" even on orks with a 4+ BS, if all Orks ignored modifiers. Because that would mean even with a -3 to hit modifier, the 4+ Orks would shoot at 4+, and 5+ Orks would shoot at 5+.. because they're ignoring the modifier entirely.

I think you're getting confused with the OTHER version of the rule we want for Orks, which is the one that says Orks will always hit on a 6+. This doesn't mean Orks with a 4+ BS can only hit on a 6+, it just means that if they get -1/-2/-3 to hit modifiers, the WORST their BS can be modified to is a 6+.

I really hope this makes sense, I've had to explain this exact same thing 3 times now and yet everyone still seems baffled by it.

Two things.

1.when it says 5+ and 6+, That is with modifiers. Ballistic Skills don't get modified by -1 or +1, only the actual die roll does;
a BS 5+ with a -1 does not become a 6+. This makes no sense even with poor wording because how would you get the "+" part. Unless your 6 sided dice have 7 sides this baffles me. A BS 5+ with a -1 means you need an unmodified roll of a 6, not a roll of a 6+ to hit. All of this is in the actual rules; I'm not making up something new.

2. I think Ork shooting could be fixed with two ways and I'd give the codex both.

a. new rule We'd D'ink We Can: Orks always can hit on an unmodified 6 during the shooting phase with ranged weapons. (orks pyschic presence is so great that even if your orcs are shooting the wrong direction they can hit their target because they think they can.) This does not change BS nor does it stop you from hitting according to your BS.

b. Lookout Gretchin or Gretchin Spys: size 5-10 3points a model, fast attack slot, has the rule Hide: play this unit over 9" away from enemy models at the end of your movement phase. Roll 1d6 for every model in the unit; on a 6 your units takes a mortal wound (he was spotted). This unit has the rule "We see Dem": choose any unit within 12" of this unit and every model in your army can shoot that unit without negative modifiers besides ones from moving heavy ranged weapons.

I cant english well yes, but i think i worded what i meant poorily.

I said Orks always hitting on a 6+ after modifiers isnt ignoring those rules completely, it will ignore a bit of them and i think that is actually a good thing for Orks, out of all the armies i feel Orks are best to counter negatives to hit via shooting, i feel there needs to be some that can ignore rules, there should IMO always be at least some Rock, Paper, Scissors. -1/-2 to hit should be Orks (out side of a couple weapons in some armies, like flamers)

If that makes since?

Like Tyranids ignore Moral, Harlequins Ignore Terrian, etc.. i feel this gives the game better balance as it has a hard counter and will help the meta be more stable, if -1/-2 to hits ae extremely strong and everywhere and Shooting armies are bad like IG, then melee armies will be King, Orks, Daemons, etc.. and, due to those changes you will see players themselves shift the meta to counter those armies and it repeats, as an example, Flamers will be more viable b.c negatives to hit and melee is stronger.

Without hard counters the rules writers are force to faq, change points, power creep, etc...

fe40k wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I'm not sure I made myself particularly clear

I wasn't objecting to the "I don't think it'll happen" argument. I was objecting to the "it would make alaitoc, raven guard, etc useless!" argument.

It would not make them useless. It would stop them from being utterly broken against low BS armies.

I meant that it would make the -trait- useless. As in they would just be a basic Eldar/Chaos/SM army essentially without a trait at all. They would still be good in themselves, as their units aren't terrible with a trait, but they could literally take any other trait in the book and be better if Ork's had that rule that ignored all hit modifiers.

Again, you're advocating that one armies single trait is more valuable than another armies entire shooting.

Also; so what if a trait is "useless" in ONE particular matchup, out of many possibilities - Imperial Fist's "Ignore Cover" is useless against even more matchups; unless you're Space Marines, you're not getting cover - so... 80% of the game? A trait can have downsides, or bad matchups - if a trait is ALL upside, with no possibility of having a negative - then it needs to be nerfed.

Also, don't forget that Orks DO have BS4+ elements (Grots/Flash Gits/etc); these WOULD suffer the -1, since it's still capped at 5+ with this proposed rule.

The idea that "Orks shoot a lot so bad BS is ok" would only be reasonable if Orks actually DID shoot a lot. Shootas are Assault 2 at 18 inches, not much better than rapid fire 24. Tankbustas are assault 1...hardly "a lot" in my book.

To match the fluff, boyz would be assault 4...lootas wold be D6, and tankbustas would be assault 2. That, and a "natural" D6 cap, would fix it. Write GW!

Yeah, the only army that should be rolling as many dice as Orks is Imperial Guard

IG should be the high numbers of dice at long range shooting army (So artillery. And high numbers of infantry.)
Tau should be the high quality of firepower at long range shooting army with a nice amount of mobility, but not Eldar mobility.
Eldar should be the high quality of firepower at low-mid range shooting army with very high mobility. (And some very specialist meele units)
Orks should be the high numbers of dice at low-mid range shooting with a not so fast army but with better numbers and meele capabilityes. (Again, not in quality but in number)

Tyranids should be fast and even more meele centrict than Orks, with their Range shooting being more for support, specialized units, living artillery, etc...
And Dark Eldar should have more meele and even more mobility than normal eldar at the cost of shooting power and durability (They lack Wraith constructs and their vehicles shouldn't be as durable as Craftworlders)


Of course each army could have many subfactions like a Catachan pseudo-meele and low-range flamer shooting army! Totally viable and fluffy!

To bad DE melee sucks and 90% its shooting does too... Posion shooting is terrible this edition, the worst i've even seen it.

Lances and Dis cannons are keeping DE's head above water ATM.

Yeah, I was talking about the "theme" of each army In a ideal scenario, you could run them efectively how they are in the fluff.

Hopefully they do something to help out Orks in CHapter Approved. When's it coming out anyway? Or has it already?