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 Melissia wrote:
Hopefully they do something to help out Orks in CHapter Approved. When's it coming out anyway? Or has it already?

December.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Hopefully they do something to help out Orks in CHapter Approved. When's it coming out anyway? Or has it already?

December.

Well, it's gonna feel like a long wait.

Really DakkaDakka? Really? I've just read several pages of people trying to argue always hitting on 6+ for orks woukd be OP.... Dude! It coukd be 5+ it it wouldn't be OP! Their are some stupid op rules in this game but always hitting on a 6+ would not be one of them! In addition, orks arnt fast? There is an entire cult in ork society built around speed! You don't even have to be an evil sunz to be in the cult of speed! 1 time, an ork warboss drove so fast he flew through a titan and blew it up!!!

Late November i believe, but the studio seems a little bit behind so it might be early December.

Odd to be saying this, but I feel like Orks are going to be the only army with a Codex where the majority of players are dissatisfied. And it's mostly because of the issues with shooting.

Hoping GW is quick with the FAQ once people actually get their hands on it.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Odd to be saying this, but I feel like Orks are going to be the only army with a Codex where the majority of players are dissatisfied. And it's mostly because of the issues with shooting.

What about blood angels?

 koooaei wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Odd to be saying this, but I feel like Orks are going to be the only army with a Codex where the majority of players are dissatisfied. And it's mostly because of the issues with shooting.

What about blood angels?

BA players are masochists. They like it that way.

 lolman1c wrote:
Really DakkaDakka? Really? I've just read several pages of people trying to argue always hitting on 6+ for orks woukd be OP.... Dude! It coukd be 5+ it it wouldn't be OP! Their are some stupid op rules in this game but always hitting on a 6+ would not be one of them! In addition, orks arnt fast? There is an entire cult in ork society built around speed! You don't even have to be an evil sunz to be in the cult of speed! 1 time, an ork warboss drove so fast he flew through a titan and blew it up!!!

I didn't said Orks aren't fast, I even said that sub-factions could add differents kinds of flavour to the army. But no, Orks aren't Eldar fast. The difference between the movility and how fast they are with Orks vs Tyranids is that Orks can have many units being very fast (Vehicles, Bikers, Kopters, etc...), but their troops are normally slow, in the other hand, Tyranids infantry is one of the fastest of the game, but their big monsters aren't as fast (Normally)

Dark Angels have one of the fastest Imperium armies in Ravenwing. And I don't think nobody is saying Dark Angels are "fast" in general. The same applyes to orks.

 koooaei wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Odd to be saying this, but I feel like Orks are going to be the only army with a Codex where the majority of players are dissatisfied. And it's mostly because of the issues with shooting.

What about blood angels?

AFAIK Blood Angels do not currently have a Codex. Orks are supposed to get theirs in December.

But the Ork Codex should be a good indicator of what to expect for Blood Angels, with insights into rules / Stratagems / faction traits for a melee-oriented army.

So maybe by April there will be 2 armies with Codexes where the majority of players will be dissatisfied.

 koooaei wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Odd to be saying this, but I feel like Orks are going to be the only army with a Codex where the majority of players are dissatisfied. And it's mostly because of the issues with shooting.

What about blood angels?

Depends. Some playars will always be dissatisfied with BA, because what they really wanted was loyalist World Eaters, and the Blood Angels aren't that. Otherwise, if they do a good job, most BA players will be happy with it.

KTar wrote:
Two things.

1.when it says 5+ and 6+, That is with modifiers. Ballistic Skills don't get modified by -1 or +1, only the actual die roll does;
a BS 5+ with a -1 does not become a 6+. This makes no sense even with poor wording because how would you get the "+" part. Unless your 6 sided dice have 7 sides this baffles me. A BS 5+ with a -1 means you need an unmodified roll of a 6, not a roll of a 6+ to hit. All of this is in the actual rules; I'm not making up something new.

An unmodified roll of a 6, and a 6+ to hit, are both the exact same thing. The end result is that your gun will only hit the target if you roll a 6.

The + is just the way these things are written. Yeh, it's weird, but it's just the way it is. There are units with a 7+ armour save.


I'm giving up on this thread now though. I've had to deal with way too many people arguing that I'm wrong in my opinion, and then saying that their idea is much better.... and then they go on to write out the exact same idea that I wrote. I swear I'm tearing my hair out here.

Although I will say that Orks already have a hard counter to alaitoc/alpha/ravenguard armies. Get into melee and you ignore their -1 to hits. Having a -second- hard counter where you ignore all to-hit modifiers is just asking too much. Always hitting on a 6 is good enough for Ork shooting.

Btw. I remember warhammer fantasy battle used to have hit modifiers aswell. There, hit rolls could be modified past 6+.

To hit something harder than 6+ you needed to roll 6+ followed by 4+.
This could be further modified to 6+ followed by 5+ and lastly 6+ 6+.

Would this be a way to solve the situation with modifiers in 8th? Sure it would make life a living hell for orks, but at least they would have a chance against modifier stacking enemies, while the foes would not loose any benefits.

Niiru wrote:
Get into melee and you ignore their -1 to hits.

This is getting old after a while you know ? Half the Ork army is made of shooty units. Would you tell a Space Marines player "Just get into melee with your Devastators / Predator / Rifleman Dread and you ignore their -1 to hits" ???

A core rule change is *needed* for the game to work. And it is either to prevent stacking modifiers (very unlikely as it would break the game the other way around) or to say that a 6 always hits.

Also, Orks totally ignoring modifiers is pure wishful thinking.

Yup, the solution is to make it such that a 6 always hits, just like a 1 always fails for saves, or I believe a 6 always wounds.

There should not be armies that are functionally immune in specific phases of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gitdakka wrote:
Btw. I remember warhammer fantasy battle used to have hit modifiers aswell. There, hit rolls could be modified past 6+.

To hit something harder than 6+ you needed to roll 6+ followed by 4+.
This could be further modified to 6+ followed by 5+ and lastly 6+ 6+.

Would this be a way to solve the situation with modifiers in 8th? Sure it would make life a living hell for orks, but at least they would have a chance against modifier stacking enemies, while the foes would not loose any benefits.

The issue with this is that it makes a lot of extra dice rolling and it would need to be 6+, 2+ for a 7 + needed to hit etc. It would slow the game down considerably against modifier armies.

I can’t believe how many people think an unmodified roll of a 6 is the same thing as a 6+. You are absolutely wrong. Please read the FAQS rules. There is one that says if you get an ability that hits on a 6+ does the ability go off on a roll of a 5 with a +1 modifier and they answered yes. “Whenever the game rules, data sheet rules state a 6+ they are talking about “modifiers”. If you don’t believe me read the FAQS again. Nowhere does it say modifiers impact BS unless like the culexus assassin states the BS and WS change into a 6+. Modifiers affect the actual roll. Orcs will always hit on a 5 with BS 5+, but sometimes that 5 could require a 6 or 7 do to the negative modifier of the roll. Why do you see overwatch hit on 6s, not 6+. It’s this reason. Why can tesla with MWBD prod it’s ability on a roll of a 5 if it goes off on a 6+. This is because “6+” includes modifiers.

Anyone who wants to disagree with me read the FAQs first please.

You're right but everyone understands what he means, making the whole argument, and continuing it, a little bit on the silly side.

I don't think personally that units which can't physically be hit are healthy for the game. And this applies to many other things, like assassins and power fists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Odd to be saying this, but I feel like Orks are going to be the only army with a Codex where the majority of players are dissatisfied. And it's mostly because of the issues with shooting.

What about blood angels?

Pretty sure all 20 grey knights players were dissatisfied with the codex.

 Marmatag wrote:
You're right but everyone understands what he means, making the whole argument, and continuing it, a little bit on the silly side.

I don't think personally that units which can't physically be hit are healthy for the game. And this applies to many other things, like assassins and power fists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Odd to be saying this, but I feel like Orks are going to be the only army with a Codex where the majority of players are dissatisfied. And it's mostly because of the issues with shooting.

What about blood angels?

Pretty sure all 20 grey knights players were dissatisfied with the codex.

I hear they're very smiteful.

Grey Knights are indeed smiteful. I've seen them drop 11 mortal wounds turn after turn from long ranges in addition to being elite badasses. They regularly table other elite armies and completely annihilate the daemon primarchs that make everyone fidgety.

They suck vs Guard and that's just about the only reason to be dissatisfied with them in this meta.

The -1 to hit buff just needs to be destroyed.

Its not an Ork problem - although they are effected by it more than most - its an everyone problem.

I don't think GW will do it so soon after rolling out the codexes but they have been willing to change other things.

But right now, as predicted, Raven Guard are head and shoulders over the other Chapters if you don't take RG. And Chaos is Alpha Legion detachments with other detachments for the soup. And Ad Mech would all by Stygies if it wasn't for Cawl (like RG) being so good you have to be Mars. And Eldar are now all going to be Alaitoc unless there is some peculiar build I am missing.

To my mind it needs to be changed to something like "-1 to hit for shooting outside 12" - or even at all ranges - on the first turn".

I reckon this would still have a place because that first turn alpha damage is often decisive but it would be a trade off in having no bonus later on in the game.
As for the fear it might become second best to something else? Well if that happens so what? Some abilities are clearly inferior to others. Let me know if you meet any non-fluff bunny's running Saim-Hann or Word Bearers.

 Arkaine wrote:
Grey Knights are indeed smiteful. I've seen them drop 11 mortal wounds turn after turn from long ranges in addition to being elite badasses. They regularly table other elite armies and completely annihilate the daemon primarchs that make everyone fidgety.

They suck vs Guard and that's just about the only reason to be dissatisfied with them in this meta.

This is a hilariously awesome sarcasm post. Well done.

 Nym wrote:

This is getting old after a while you know ? Half the Ork army is made of shooty units

It looks to me to be made up of a lot of a) melee units and b) melee units that can also shoot.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Odd to be saying this, but I feel like Orks are going to be the only army with a Codex where the majority of players are dissatisfied. And it's mostly because of the issues with shooting.

Hoping GW is quick with the FAQ once people actually get their hands on it.

Admech and grey knights.

Alcibiades wrote:

 Nym wrote:

This is getting old after a while you know ? Half the Ork army is made of shooty units

It looks to me to be made up of a lot of a) melee units and b) melee units that can also shoot.

I think you need to have a re-examine of the ork index, over 50% of ork units are dedicated to being shooty.

Orks should be unaffected by shooting modifiers because they aren't aiming anyway.

Did'ja try krumpin' 'em?

 Marklarr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Nym wrote:

This is getting old after a while you know ? Half the Ork army is made of shooty units

It looks to me to be made up of a lot of a) melee units and b) melee units that can also shoot.

I think you need to have a re-examine of the ork index, over 50% of ork units are dedicated to being shooty.

Okay let's see:

Close combat:

meganobz
nobz
kommandos
boyz
stormboyz

shooty:

burnas(but short ranged and ignore BS anyway)
tank busta
flashgit
planes
deff kopta
buggies/traks
battlewagon(though primary purpose is transport so if you don't get within 12" you are doing something wrong)
mek guns/big guns
loota

both:

warbikes
gorga/morkanaut
dreadnoughts
killa kan
stompa

whateva:

grotz
trukk(you take this for transport, not for shooting)

total: 9 units out of 21, one depatable, dedicated to shooting. Others are CC or CC with shooty elements.

I tend to be in the "6s always hit for everyone, not just Orks" camp. I can see maybe a Stratagem or a specific unit like Flash Gitz that ignores penalties to hit, but I think it would be a shame to totally negate one of the important characteristics of an army like Alpha Legion or Raven Guard (or probably Blood Axes, when we get our codex).

tneva82 wrote:

 Marklarr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Nym wrote:

This is getting old after a while you know ? Half the Ork army is made of shooty units

It looks to me to be made up of a lot of a) melee units and b) melee units that can also shoot.

I think you need to have a re-examine of the ork index, over 50% of ork units are dedicated to being shooty.

Okay let's see:

Spoiler:

Close combat:

meganobz
nobz
kommandos
boyz
stormboyz

shooty:

burnas(but short ranged and ignore BS anyway)
tank busta
flashgit
planes
deff kopta
buggies/traks
battlewagon(though primary purpose is transport so if you don't get within 12" you are doing something wrong)
mek guns/big guns
loota

both:

warbikes
gorga/morkanaut
dreadnoughts
killa kan
stompa

whateva:

grotz
trukk(you take this for transport, not for shooting)

total: 9 units out of 21, one depatable, dedicated to shooting. Others are CC or CC with shooty elements.

While some units are definitely shooty and some are definitely choppy, the amount of options available to many units puts a lot more in the "both" category than I think you give them credit for. Also, the Ork Boy and Nob profiles all lend themselves to being good in assault and our vehicles are mostly above average in assault too, so it could be said that the large majority of Ork shooty units are actually dual-purpose. The problem is that, like Space Marine Devestators, while on a model-to-model basis they are way better than a Guardsman in close combat, it is a horrible waste of points to be using Lootas or Flash Gitz to fight in melee. (I know you didn't make that exact argument tneva82, I've just seen it many other places.)

I would move many of your close combat units towards the "both" category, but on the other hand I would also move some units out of "shooty" and into "both".

Also, you condense many units that are listed individually into being the same unit, which I don't think is necessarily unfair but can also effect how people are counting. Like, I can see why you would list all the Ork flyers as one unit, but on the other hand they are listed separetely, have somewhat different jobs and means of going about those jobs, and would count as four shooty units if counted separately.

I think about half the Ork units could be considered "both" but many of these are often run as close combat due to shooting options being overcosted. Standard Nobz are more close combat oriented, but if a person starts adding kustom and kombi shootas it becomes more of a "both" unit and if every nob has a kombi-rokkit and ammo runt I think it would count as a shooty unit. A lot of this is subjective, though. It would probably would be better to have more of a one through five ranking, with one being pure close combat, five being pure shooting and three being pretty evenly balanced, but that would be going pretty deep down the rabbit hole for what is probably a minor point in this discussion.

Yeah, and some of them (planes, artillery, buggies) gather several different units. We've actually got 4 planes, 7 different pieces of artillery and 2 buggies/wartrakks.

Shooty ork units can easily be 75% of the codex actually.

An interesting post on another forums:

Big shoota = 6, twin big shoota 14
Rokkit = 12, twin rokkit = 28
Shoota = 0, kustom shoota = 4

For other factions
Beakies(sisters for Multimelta, HB)
Assault cannon = 21, twin = 35
heavy bolter = 10, twin = 17
LAscannon = 25, twin = 50
Bolter = 0, twin bolter/storm = 2
Heavy Flamer = 17, twin = 34
Heavy Plasma cannon = 30, twin = 34
Multimelta = 27, twin = 54

panzee
Missile Launcher 25, twin 50
Brightlance 20, twin 40
Scatter laser 15, twin 30
Shuriken cannon 12, twin 24
Shuriken Catapult 0, twin 10
Starcannon 30, twin 60

Dark panzee
Liquefier gun = 13, twin 26

tin'eads
Heavy Guass cannon 32 twin 64

Admech
Heavy phosphor blaster 15, twin 30

'umie
Heavy bolter 8, twin 14
Heavy flamer 17, twin 30


This shows that orks are basically the only faction who pays more for twin shooters despite benefiting the least from them. If this doesn't highlight that Orks have been thrown under the buss then I don't know what will. How dare any faction even suggest Ork shooting is okay the way it is! How dare gw forcing us to only be one type of army! If people even knew a single thing about orks they would know a hell of a lot of orks love to shoot and the index and past codex clearly demonstrates this with the large number of units that are mainly for shooting. Gw has flattened us into a 1 dimensional army so mu h in this index that the entire player base has forgotten about past editions and just presumes orks are only cc.

 Blackie wrote:
Yeah, and some of them (planes, artillery, buggies) gather several different units. We've actually got 4 planes, 7 different pieces of artillery and 2 buggies/wartrakks.

Shooty ork units can easily be 75% of the codex actually.

That's like saying nob with big choppa is different h2h entry to nob with power klaw though.