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Not exactly. Wartrakks and buggies have different profiles, not only weapons, mek gunz and big gunz also have different profiles. Planes have the same stats but they all have their own profile, which means they're considered different units by GW.

But in a some way yeah, you're right, I was talking about all the options available. Choppy nobz can have different loadout but if you think about all the possible combinations available in the codex you'll realize that there are way more shooty options than choppy ones.

There's a core rule flaw in this game and it's regarding the hit modifiers. Sure, the re-roll sequence is also completely messed up, but overheating plasmas on 1, 2, 3 and not being able to trigger your Tempestus doctrine since you can never get a 6, is ridiculous. But that's just the start. You can make units completely impervious to shooting. They cannot be hit at all, since if you can't hit on a 6, you can't hit at all. It's Pete Haines' Siren again. Cast a spell or stack some abilities and a unit becomes impervious to shooting. Who cares about 2++ or re-rollable invulnerable saves when you make make your army or at least the most important parts unhittable.

It's messed up.

Utterly unhittable under highly spesific conditions.

Spesific units, buffed by a specific psychic power (that you can only try once), with spesific sub faction, at 12 or further away.

There are many strings attached and points of failure along the way, some can be actively triggered by the opponent.

If we look of example at orks.
Stormboys and wierdboys both throw serius spanners into the machine.



Also, auto hitting weapons available to practically every army, and they care not for BS penalty shenanigans.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Utterly unhittable under highly spesific conditions.

Spesific units, buffed by a specific psychic power (that you can only try once), with spesific sub faction, at 12 or further away.

There are many strings attached and points of failure along the way, some can be actively triggered by the opponent.

If we look of example at orks.
Stormboys and wierdboys both throw serius spanners into the machine.



Also, auto hitting weapons available to practically every army, and they care not for BS penalty shenanigans.

Or you know Eldar Rangers in a particular faction, automatically, Tzeentch Alpha Legion Oblits with the Changling etc. Sure there are answers orks can always assault. The issue is these penalties and existence of unit that cannot be hit in shooting makes ork shooting units bad choices and limits the options that are viable in the army.

I like that GW made Boyz good and that Green Tide is viable. I'd like to play Orks in other ways, which currently wouldn't work very well, but I'm optimistic that GW will fix many of the problems when they release the Ork Codex.

Breng77 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Utterly unhittable under highly spesific conditions.

Spesific units, buffed by a specific psychic power (that you can only try once), with spesific sub faction, at 12 or further away.

There are many strings attached and points of failure along the way, some can be actively triggered by the opponent.

If we look of example at orks.
Stormboys and wierdboys both throw serius spanners into the machine.



Also, auto hitting weapons available to practically every army, and they care not for BS penalty shenanigans.

Or you know Eldar Rangers in a particular faction, automatically, Tzeentch Alpha Legion Oblits with the Changling etc. Sure there are answers orks can always assault. The issue is these penalties and existence of unit that cannot be hit in shooting makes ork shooting units bad choices and limits the options that are viable in the army.

Especially when you have spent a fortune on lootas, rockets and big shootas and suddenly they're like "nope, use close combat weaoons... all that stuff we sold is useless and over priced!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
Not exactly. Wartrakks and buggies have different profiles, not only weapons, mek gunz and big gunz also have different profiles. Planes have the same stats but they all have their own profile, which means they're considered different units by GW.

But in a some way yeah, you're right, I was talking about all the options available. Choppy nobz can have different loadout but if you think about all the possible combinations available in the codex you'll realize that there are way more shooty options than choppy ones.

I would say a nob with a bigshoota or kustom shoota is a shooty option. Hell orks with shootas are the shooty options! It's like saying an marine with a bolta plays the same style of game than a marine with a chainsword and pistol.

Martel732 wrote:
Orks should be unaffected by shooting modifiers because they aren't aiming anyway.

This. This is absolutely accurate and a great solution.

 lolman1c wrote:

I would say a nob with a bigshoota or kustom shoota is a shooty option. Hell orks with shootas are the shooty options! It's like saying an marine with a bolta plays the same style of game than a marine with a chainsword and pistol.

But are those _dedicated_ shooting units rather than mix of CC&shooting? Claim was over half the units in ork codex are dedicated shooting units. That mean no usability in CC. Just having guns in unit does not make you dedicated shooting unit.

As others have said the problem with Orks shooting are the costs of the guns. Especially twin linked Ork guns which often are more than the cost of two of said gun- most factions with good BS pay only two times the cost, and in some cases less (I'm looking at you quad heavy bolters)

Then again a lot if the close combat options need to drop in cost too.

Orks need some serious love in their codex.

 Melissia wrote:

Niiru wrote:
While I agree that the "spray and pray" rule of Orks are never affected by hit modifiers is fluffy, I really don't think it will ever happen, as it would make traits such as Alaitoc and Ravenguard and Alpha legion completely worthless.

Not really. Going from 5+ to hit to 6+ to hit is a 50% reduction in hits. That's massively powerful. The -1 to hit actually hits Orks the hardest, far more than it hits guard or marines or eldar.

They shouldn't allow this 50% reduction in hits to ever become a 100% reduction in hits. They have done so. This is bad game design.

It's a 50% reduction, but the real math here is that they go from hitting 1/3 of the time to only 1/6 of the time, which would not have been an issue last edition. After all, vs Invisibility based armies is one of the few times you can say Orks thrived, but nobody played them so oh well. Assuming appropriate costs in the first place (as most of the index armies are weirdly priced for various equipment) this is not an issue.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Niiru wrote:
While I agree that the "spray and pray" rule of Orks are never affected by hit modifiers is fluffy, I really don't think it will ever happen, as it would make traits such as Alaitoc and Ravenguard and Alpha legion completely worthless.

Not really. Going from 5+ to hit to 6+ to hit is a 50% reduction in hits. That's massively powerful. The -1 to hit actually hits Orks the hardest, far more than it hits guard or marines or eldar.

They shouldn't allow this 50% reduction in hits to ever become a 100% reduction in hits. They have done so. This is bad game design.

It's a 50% reduction, but the real math here is that they go from hitting 1/3 of the time to only 1/6 of the time, which would not have been an issue last edition. After all, vs Invisibility based armies is one of the few times you can say Orks thrived, but nobody played them so oh well. Assuming appropriate costs in the first place (as most of the index armies are weirdly priced for various equipment) this is not an issue.

They "thrived" against invisible based armies because they had the smallest reduction (50%) of any army in shooting, while having some of the highest amount of shots. Every other army also hit on 6s against invisiblity. This is a large difference between now, when other armies have more shots, and suffer smaller reductions in effectiveness.

For "snap shooting" orks went from hitting 1/3rd to hitting 1/6th a 50% reduction in output. Marines went from hitting 2/3 to hitting 1/6th a 75% reduction in output.
Now with -1 orks go from hitting 1/3rd to hitting 1/6th a 50% in reduction. Marines go from hitting 2/3 to hitting 1/2 a 25 % reduction.

Against a -2 orks are at a 100% reduction, marines at a 50%

If we look at 2 base units at ~ same cost

10 Tacticals and
27 Shoota boyz

10 tacticals at -1 to hit at 12" (lets say this doesn't negate the -1 to hit in this case) = 20 shots Normal:13 hits. -1: 10 Hits
27 Shoota boyz = 54 shots Normal : 18 hits. -1: 9 hits

tneva82 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

I would say a nob with a bigshoota or kustom shoota is a shooty option. Hell orks with shootas are the shooty options! It's like saying an marine with a bolta plays the same style of game than a marine with a chainsword and pistol.

But are those _dedicated_ shooting units rather than mix of CC&shooting? Claim was over half the units in ork codex are dedicated shooting units. That mean no usability in CC. Just having guns in unit does not make you dedicated shooting unit.

Under this thinking you could argue most gaurd stuff wouldn't be shooty when it clearly is. It's dangerous to think this was because it enforces an idea that units that are not as effective than other more dedicated units should cost more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Niiru wrote:
While I agree that the "spray and pray" rule of Orks are never affected by hit modifiers is fluffy, I really don't think it will ever happen, as it would make traits such as Alaitoc and Ravenguard and Alpha legion completely worthless.

Not really. Going from 5+ to hit to 6+ to hit is a 50% reduction in hits. That's massively powerful. The -1 to hit actually hits Orks the hardest, far more than it hits guard or marines or eldar.

They shouldn't allow this 50% reduction in hits to ever become a 100% reduction in hits. They have done so. This is bad game design.

It's a 50% reduction, but the real math here is that they go from hitting 1/3 of the time to only 1/6 of the time, which would not have been an issue last edition. After all, vs Invisibility based armies is one of the few times you can say Orks thrived, but nobody played them so oh well. Assuming appropriate costs in the first place (as most of the index armies are weirdly priced for various equipment) this is not an issue.

They "thrived" against invisible based armies because they had the smallest reduction (50%) of any army in shooting, while having some of the highest amount of shots. Every other army also hit on 6s against invisiblity. This is a large difference between now, when other armies have more shots, and suffer smaller reductions in effectiveness.

For "snap shooting" orks went from hitting 1/3rd to hitting 1/6th a 50% reduction in output. Marines went from hitting 2/3 to hitting 1/6th a 75% reduction in output.
Now with -1 orks go from hitting 1/3rd to hitting 1/6th a 50% in reduction. Marines go from hitting 2/3 to hitting 1/2 a 25 % reduction.

Against a -2 orks are at a 100% reduction, marines at a 50%

If we look at 2 base units at ~ same cost

10 Tacticals and
27 Shoota boyz

10 tacticals at -1 to hit at 12" (lets say this doesn't negate the -1 to hit in this case) = 20 shots Normal:13 hits. -1: 10 Hits
27 Shoota boyz = 54 shots Normal : 18 hits. -1: 9 hits

I honestly can't belive people are genuinely arguing that the -1 and -2 are not a problem to orks.... this is what gw has created! People thinking orks should just be a shooting range for their models rather than a valid and threatening opponent! It doesn't matter how many times we post this above maths they still do not understand that 100% chance to miss on 100s of pts worth of shooting units is bad!

tneva82 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

I would say a nob with a bigshoota or kustom shoota is a shooty option. Hell orks with shootas are the shooty options! It's like saying an marine with a bolta plays the same style of game than a marine with a chainsword and pistol.

But are those _dedicated_ shooting units rather than mix of CC&shooting? Claim was over half the units in ork codex are dedicated shooting units. That mean no usability in CC. Just having guns in unit does not make you dedicated shooting unit.

It's a pretty subjective thing to count but orks have around 14 mostly dedicated shooty units out of ~45 - means 1/3 of the book is purely shooty. Space marines have around 25 mostly dedicated shooty units out of ~80 - that's also around 1/3 of the book. Means marines are a mellee army hence should also suck at shooting? Eldar have ~23 dedicated shooty units out of ~47 total. That's only 50% shooty units in the book.

Od arguement. What people here are trying to say is that if the unit IS dedicated to shooting, it should be good at it. Not just good compared to a dedicated mellee unit. But at least around as good as other dedicated shooty units. Otherwise what's the point? Justifying ork lootas being unable to hit by "well, most of the codex is mellee-oriented - means all orks should suck at shooting..." than why the hell do we have to pay 17 ppm for a unit that sucks at it's job? In fact it's absolutely unable to perform it.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Orks should be unaffected by shooting modifiers because they aren't aiming anyway.

This. This is absolutely accurate and a great solution.

Take a look at the old Khemri army book for inspiration. Their skeleton archers were bad shots with a BS of 2. So how do you sell these guys to the gaming community? You will have to introduce a special rule for them. I guess it was some kind of Blessing from a Goddess that enabled them to always hit on 5+ which could never be modified.
With to hit modifiers introduced to the game, Orks need something similar. Another option would be to go back to 2nd and give Orks BS 3 (4+ to hit).

 lolman1c wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

I would say a nob with a bigshoota or kustom shoota is a shooty option. Hell orks with shootas are the shooty options! It's like saying an marine with a bolta plays the same style of game than a marine with a chainsword and pistol.

But are those _dedicated_ shooting units rather than mix of CC&shooting? Claim was over half the units in ork codex are dedicated shooting units. That mean no usability in CC. Just having guns in unit does not make you dedicated shooting unit.

Under this thinking you could argue most gaurd stuff wouldn't be shooty when it clearly is. It's dangerous to think this was because it enforces an idea that units that are not as effective than other more dedicated units should cost more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Niiru wrote:
While I agree that the "spray and pray" rule of Orks are never affected by hit modifiers is fluffy, I really don't think it will ever happen, as it would make traits such as Alaitoc and Ravenguard and Alpha legion completely worthless.

Not really. Going from 5+ to hit to 6+ to hit is a 50% reduction in hits. That's massively powerful. The -1 to hit actually hits Orks the hardest, far more than it hits guard or marines or eldar.

They shouldn't allow this 50% reduction in hits to ever become a 100% reduction in hits. They have done so. This is bad game design.

It's a 50% reduction, but the real math here is that they go from hitting 1/3 of the time to only 1/6 of the time, which would not have been an issue last edition. After all, vs Invisibility based armies is one of the few times you can say Orks thrived, but nobody played them so oh well. Assuming appropriate costs in the first place (as most of the index armies are weirdly priced for various equipment) this is not an issue.

They "thrived" against invisible based armies because they had the smallest reduction (50%) of any army in shooting, while having some of the highest amount of shots. Every other army also hit on 6s against invisiblity. This is a large difference between now, when other armies have more shots, and suffer smaller reductions in effectiveness.

For "snap shooting" orks went from hitting 1/3rd to hitting 1/6th a 50% reduction in output. Marines went from hitting 2/3 to hitting 1/6th a 75% reduction in output.
Now with -1 orks go from hitting 1/3rd to hitting 1/6th a 50% in reduction. Marines go from hitting 2/3 to hitting 1/2 a 25 % reduction.

Against a -2 orks are at a 100% reduction, marines at a 50%

If we look at 2 base units at ~ same cost

10 Tacticals and
27 Shoota boyz

10 tacticals at -1 to hit at 12" (lets say this doesn't negate the -1 to hit in this case) = 20 shots Normal:13 hits. -1: 10 Hits
27 Shoota boyz = 54 shots Normal : 18 hits. -1: 9 hits

I honestly can't belive people are genuinely arguing that the -1 and -2 are not a problem to orks.... this is what gw has created! People thinking orks should just be a shooting range for their models rather than a valid and threatening opponent! It doesn't matter how many times we post this above maths they still do not understand that 100% chance to miss on 100s of pts worth of shooting units is bad!

I'm arguing that -1 is not a big deal. I'll agree with -2 sucking hard, but -1 is not.

I agree that Ork shooting is being hammered by deductions to hit.

Unalterable 5+ to hit for Orks seems like a 3rd Ed 'Choppa' solution to me.

IMO 'a 6 always hits' would be better.

You actually have armies that can reroll all hits, advance and fire all their weapons and have a 5+ FNP but 5+ always hit is too much? We are literally paying double for weapons for things that have a 1 in 6 chance to hit while orther armies pay less for a 25% chance to hit! Does nobody hear themselves? I seriously feel like I'm insane!

Also -1 to hit is terrible to Orks for the pure reason we already loose -1 when we advance! So now faster armies can advance and fire while our 5" movement models can't? Oh okay... geuss it's just not a big deal we cannot even fire! I'm paying a stupid amount for rockets and big shootas that will never even be fired! By the time I have advanced to be within 12" I'll be 6 to hit and then charge in....

In addition, if gw wanted us to be more cc then why is stuff like our mega nobz stupidly expensive but get almost none of the same benefits as terminators? No deepstrike, no invulns, 4" movement! The movement alone and taking up double space adds the additional 82pt truck... also if you want to take more than three then geuss you have to shell out 150+ pts on battlewagon! To be as effective as a squad of terminators you're looking at 4-500pts for 1 squad! It's insane! You get like 1 extra wound on each model but with multiple wound weapons and no invulns (plus the 1-2 turns of getting there) you're looking at likely worse survival rates. (Not sure if a weirdboy can jump them or not as don't have index with me but even so that's still 3-400 pts worth just on one unit... at yhat point your enemy got themselves 10 terminators who deepstrike and charged your squad).

No to the cap at 5+ but have the cap at 6+.... Orks are a CC army. Orks can easily get the first turn charge in and now want an improvement on shooting to account for other armies fluff or magic? Orks have never been a shooting army to begin with. Cap it at 6+ to be all around fair for those missile guy units or what have you, so you always have a chance of hitting a unit that has a special rule in effect. Don’t cap it at 5+ when thats normally what is needed to hit... That negates so many rules other armies play if you simply saying nope, oh and im awesome in CC and likely going to get first turn charge too....

So game wide not just for Orks, cap at 6+ so there’s that chance of a lucky bullet hit.

I’ve literally seen good guard and Space Marine players almost tabled by first turn Ork charges before. Capping at a 5+ is unfair IMHO, to codex specific rules.

usmcmidn wrote:
No to the cap at 5+ but have the cap at 6+.... Orks are a CC army. Orks can easily get the first turn charge in and now want an improvement on shooting to account for other armies fluff or magic? Orks have never been a shooting army to begin with. Cap it at 6+ to be all around fair for those missile guy units or what have you, so you always have a chance of hitting a unit that has a special rule in effect. Don’t cap it at 5+ when thats normally what is needed to hit... That negates so many rules other armies play if you simply saying nope, oh and im awesome in CC and likely going to get first turn charge too....

So game wide not just for Orks, cap at 6+ so there’s that chance of a lucky bullet hit.

I’ve literally seen good guard and Space Marine players almost tabled by first turn Ork charges before. Capping at a 5+ is unfair IMHO, to codex specific rules.

Don't know when you started playing, but you could make at least a semi-competative shoot ork army in practically every edition but this one.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Orks should be unaffected by shooting modifiers because they aren't aiming anyway.

This. This is absolutely accurate and a great solution.

It's almost like I know something. Don't tell the haters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Moriarty wrote:
I agree that Ork shooting is being hammered by deductions to hit.

Unalterable 5+ to hit for Orks seems like a 3rd Ed 'Choppa' solution to me.

IMO 'a 6 always hits' would be better.

Yeah, and 3rd ed choppas were great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In addition, I think these modifiers to hit are making Orks bad, as in BA levels of bad. So bad.

malcontent999 wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:
No to the cap at 5+ but have the cap at 6+.... Orks are a CC army. Orks can easily get the first turn charge in and now want an improvement on shooting to account for other armies fluff or magic? Orks have never been a shooting army to begin with. Cap it at 6+ to be all around fair for those missile guy units or what have you, so you always have a chance of hitting a unit that has a special rule in effect. Don’t cap it at 5+ when thats normally what is needed to hit... That negates so many rules other armies play if you simply saying nope, oh and im awesome in CC and likely going to get first turn charge too....

So game wide not just for Orks, cap at 6+ so there’s that chance of a lucky bullet hit.

I’ve literally seen good guard and Space Marine players almost tabled by first turn Ork charges before. Capping at a 5+ is unfair IMHO, to codex specific rules.

Don't know when you started playing, but you could make at least a semi-competative shoot ork army in practically every edition but this one.

Again, this is why I feel crazy! Have I being transmitted to another dimension where orks have only ever done cc? This is how damaging this edition have been to orks... people have outright changed history in their heads to the point where ork players have to explain to them that ork shooting armies are a thing! And we are not taking about boyz! Keep boyz as they are, a slugga boy shoukd always be a 5+ to hit and can't fire when advance (as he has a pistol not a assault weapon) but Lootas! The Orks who love shooting more than anything in the world? Nobody even heard of them? Geuss because my boyz are good at cc (a flawed system in itself) my £50 I spent on Lootas doesn't mean anything... just make the unit useless... wouldn't want orks to shoot would we? (Btw because they have a 6+ save, basically useless in combat and have a pretty good gun why would you ever put themmon the front? Also with heavy weapons and bs 5+ you even move them and they now can't fire at certain armies. This means that hundreds of points are actually wasted! But no... it's okay because you might have brought hundreds of boys for a turn 1 charge).

Orks have always been a cc army in over twenty years of gaming I've never once seen any ork player myself included focus on shooting.

They are not a gun line army.

 lolman1c wrote:
You actually have armies that can reroll all hits, advance and fire all their weapons and have a 5+ FNP but 5+ always hit is too much? We are literally paying double for weapons for things that have a 1 in 6 chance to hit while orther armies pay less for a 25% chance to hit! Does nobody hear themselves? I seriously feel like I'm insane!

Also -1 to hit is terrible to Orks for the pure reason we already loose -1 when we advance! So now faster armies can advance and fire while our 5" movement models can't? Oh okay... geuss it's just not a big deal we cannot even fire! I'm paying a stupid amount for rockets and big shootas that will never even be fired! By the time I have advanced to be within 12" I'll be 6 to hit and then charge in....

In addition, if gw wanted us to be more cc then why is stuff like our mega nobz stupidly expensive but get almost none of the same benefits as terminators? No deepstrike, no invulns, 4" movement! The movement alone and taking up double space adds the additional 82pt truck... also if you want to take more than three then geuss you have to shell out 150+ pts on battlewagon! To be as effective as a squad of terminators you're looking at 4-500pts for 1 squad! It's insane! You get like 1 extra wound on each model but with multiple wound weapons and no invulns (plus the 1-2 turns of getting there) you're looking at likely worse survival rates. (Not sure if a weirdboy can jump them or not as don't have index with me but even so that's still 3-400 pts worth just on one unit... at yhat point your enemy got themselves 10 terminators who deepstrike and charged your squad).

And why every army has to be great at shooting? Why orks need to be able to outshoot IG? What's wrong with having h2h armies where shooting is just useful addition? Why every army has to be same(shooty)?

hobojebus wrote:
Orks have always been a cc army in over twenty years of gaming I've never once seen any ork player myself included focus on shooting.

They are not a gun line army.

Sounds like a bland meta. I've fielded an ork shooters in 3rd, 5th, and 6th to pleasing results. With so many cool shooting units, how can you pigeon hole the entire army as cc? No one's saying orks are marksmen, but we used to be able to throw tons of dice and/or blasts that made up for our poor hit chance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
You actually have armies that can reroll all hits, advance and fire all their weapons and have a 5+ FNP but 5+ always hit is too much? We are literally paying double for weapons for things that have a 1 in 6 chance to hit while orther armies pay less for a 25% chance to hit! Does nobody hear themselves? I seriously feel like I'm insane!

Also -1 to hit is terrible to Orks for the pure reason we already loose -1 when we advance! So now faster armies can advance and fire while our 5" movement models can't? Oh okay... geuss it's just not a big deal we cannot even fire! I'm paying a stupid amount for rockets and big shootas that will never even be fired! By the time I have advanced to be within 12" I'll be 6 to hit and then charge in....

In addition, if gw wanted us to be more cc then why is stuff like our mega nobz stupidly expensive but get almost none of the same benefits as terminators? No deepstrike, no invulns, 4" movement! The movement alone and taking up double space adds the additional 82pt truck... also if you want to take more than three then geuss you have to shell out 150+ pts on battlewagon! To be as effective as a squad of terminators you're looking at 4-500pts for 1 squad! It's insane! You get like 1 extra wound on each model but with multiple wound weapons and no invulns (plus the 1-2 turns of getting there) you're looking at likely worse survival rates. (Not sure if a weirdboy can jump them or not as don't have index with me but even so that's still 3-400 pts worth just on one unit... at yhat point your enemy got themselves 10 terminators who deepstrike and charged your squad).

And why every army has to be great at shooting? Why orks need to be able to outshoot IG? What's wrong with having h2h armies where shooting is just useful addition? Why every army has to be same(shooty)?

Every race should have viable cc and shooty builds. It's how they go about doing it that lends diversity.

tneva82 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
You actually have armies that can reroll all hits, advance and fire all their weapons and have a 5+ FNP but 5+ always hit is too much? We are literally paying double for weapons for things that have a 1 in 6 chance to hit while orther armies pay less for a 25% chance to hit! Does nobody hear themselves? I seriously feel like I'm insane!

Also -1 to hit is terrible to Orks for the pure reason we already loose -1 when we advance! So now faster armies can advance and fire while our 5" movement models can't? Oh okay... geuss it's just not a big deal we cannot even fire! I'm paying a stupid amount for rockets and big shootas that will never even be fired! By the time I have advanced to be within 12" I'll be 6 to hit and then charge in....

In addition, if gw wanted us to be more cc then why is stuff like our mega nobz stupidly expensive but get almost none of the same benefits as terminators? No deepstrike, no invulns, 4" movement! The movement alone and taking up double space adds the additional 82pt truck... also if you want to take more than three then geuss you have to shell out 150+ pts on battlewagon! To be as effective as a squad of terminators you're looking at 4-500pts for 1 squad! It's insane! You get like 1 extra wound on each model but with multiple wound weapons and no invulns (plus the 1-2 turns of getting there) you're looking at likely worse survival rates. (Not sure if a weirdboy can jump them or not as don't have index with me but even so that's still 3-400 pts worth just on one unit... at yhat point your enemy got themselves 10 terminators who deepstrike and charged your squad).

And why every army has to be great at shooting? Why orks need to be able to outshoot IG? What's wrong with having h2h armies where shooting is just useful addition? Why every army has to be same(shooty)?

You're right, not every army has to be great at shooting. Khorne daemons are not good at shooting but how many dedicated shooty units do they have? Tau and AM suck in close combat, but how many melee units do they have? Only a few ones.

Since orks have tons of shooty units and wargear, 100% fluffy, making all of them crap is something that should be fixed. Considering shooting just an addition for the orks means ignoring the majority of the codex, which is absurd.

No one wants orks to outshoot AM, but asking for a few more options in order to play something different from the green tide seems rightful to me. An ork big mek themed army more oriented in shooting than melee should be viable, not as effective as the most powerful gun lines, but average at leasts. A few shooty units that support the choppy ones that actually do something should be rightful, don't you think? Otherwise orks will be forced to use 10% of the codex and only a single built with just a little variants.

Also if anyone knew anything about the history of the game you would know Orks for the first few editions had the same BS as marines.... -_- It wasn't until an article one of the devs made about wanting a zulu type of mission that orks changed thei BS.

hobojebus wrote:Orks have always been a cc army in over twenty years of gaming I've never once seen any ork player myself included focus on shooting.

They are not a gun line army.

So, do you actually own a codex? Like, of any edition? I'm just wondering about what you have been doing with shoota boyz, lootaz, tank bustaz, flash gits, looted wagons, big gunz and the SAG during the last 20 years.

tneva82 wrote:And why every army has to be great at shooting? Why orks need to be able to outshoot IG? What's wrong with having h2h armies where shooting is just useful addition? Why every army has to be same(shooty)?

We don't want to outshoot IG. We just want to have the same amount of hits for the same points with our inferior weapons, which all have less AP, range and/or strength than the imperial equivalents. Thank you.

From the last couple posts I have read... what I’ve gathered from is

you want Orks to always hit 5+ shooting no matter codex or psychic special rules...

Have a better armor save...

And points reduction?

While not nerfing them in CC, stats, or abilities?

Sounds fair, balanced, and a fun army to play against...

usmcmidn wrote:
From the last couple posts I have read... what I’ve gathered from is

you want Orks to always hit 5+ shooting no matter codex or psychic special rules...

Have a better armor save...

And points reduction?

While not nerfing them in CC, stats, or abilities?

Sounds fair, balanced, and a fun army to play against...

We want orks to be able to hit. The 5+ is just an idea. Besides, it doesn't seem sporting to have 1 faction get it's entire shooting phase shut down by some army trait.

The only better armour save we want is the option to upgrade to 'eavy armour, which we had in every edition but this one.

Yes points reductions. We pay more, and get less out of it than almost every other faction for weapons.

We're nerfed into the ground. What can we give up?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Reduce all cost on Guns, vehicles and every unit other than Boyz and make Orks never hit worst than a 6+ no matter what.

I've never understood why 1s to hit automatically fail regardless of modifers but the reverse isn't true for 6s automatically hitting.