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 Frozocrone wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Reduce all cost on Guns, vehicles and every unit other than Boyz and make Orks never hit worst than a 6+ no matter what.

I've never understood why 1s to hit automatically fail regardless of modifers but the reverse isn't true for 6s automatically hitting.

1's don't always fail regardless of modifiers but it does depend the modifier.

 Therion wrote:
. You can make units completely impervious to shooting. They cannot be hit at all, since if you can't hit on a 6, you can't hit at all. It's Pete Haines' Siren again. Cast a spell or stack some abilities and a unit becomes impervious to shooting.

It's messed up.

That's not entirely accurate. Those same units can still be hit by flamer type weapons. It encourages those sorts of things to have a place in an army list.
I realize boys won't be hitting them at -2 to hit but there are other units ant do hit, Grots and things Grot related. This is what they are for.

I'm hoping things improve a little when the Codex comes out but don't expect too much.
I'm hoping for more area buffs for thing like shooting either from spells or an aura buff from a Mek of Big mek. I don't really even expect that because to m from GW's point of view it would seem that if they sell something that already does what ever it is we want another unit to do, we probably wont get it. Best case, a price drop on mek guns.
I know my collection a fairly large so I have a bit of everything. Burna boys and Mek guns and Kannons have been putting in most all of my shooting work. My Kans are using KMB's, which as it turns out, no longer over hear.
I haven't tried any of the jets or bombers yet so I have no reall idea if they are any good but if I recall the dakka jet can hit on BS4+, or 6's in some cases. So that could be good.
Lastly, That Big Trakk with suppa scorcha is another vehicle I am planning to add with that 24" no roll to hitness.
I have to see what the points for it are, maybe two of them...

usmcmidn wrote:
From the last couple posts I have read... what I’ve gathered from is

you want Orks to always hit 5+ shooting no matter codex or psychic special rules...

Have a better armor save...

And points reduction?

While not nerfing them in CC, stats, or abilities?

Sounds fair, balanced, and a fun army to play against...

Yeah it sounds like that. Even with these buffs orks would be mid tiers at most. To be honest competitive orks are currently very boring to play and to play against thanks to the green tide style. Buffing other units means more variety and games that are surely more entertaining and balanced.

I wouldn't like a fixed 5+ for shooting, I'd prefer the (huge) points reductions. Lots of orks units should be 50% cheaper with the current stats to be average, not overpowered.

Orks close combat ability is overrated, they're not superstars in combat. They basically have tons of S4 attacks with no AP, orks should be way better in CC. But pks are way overcosted which means the units that should be great in combat are overpriced. You currently see more warbosses out of combat the entire game just there to give their LD buff to boyz than warbosses that smash enemies in melee, and that is absurd.

It seriously just sounds like a bunch of ivory tower panzees looking at the green skins below and being like "Shall we throw them a bone? No, we cannot let these filthy animals have any chance".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:
From the last couple posts I have read... what I’ve gathered from is

you want Orks to always hit 5+ shooting no matter codex or psychic special rules...

Have a better armor save...

And points reduction?

While not nerfing them in CC, stats, or abilities?

Sounds fair, balanced, and a fun army to play against...

Yeah it sounds like that. Even with these buffs orks would be mid tiers at most. To be honest competitive orks are currently very boring to play and to play against thanks to the green tide style. Buffing other units means more variety and games that are surely more entertaining and balanced.

I wouldn't like a fixed 5+ for shooting, I'd prefer the (huge) points reductions. Lots of orks units should be 50% cheaper with the current stats to be average, not overpowered.

Orks close combat ability is overrated, they're not superstars in combat. They basically have tons of S4 attacks with no AP, orks should be way better in CC. But pks are way overcosted which means the units that should be great in combat are overpriced. You currently see more warbosses out of combat the entire game just there to give their LD buff to boyz than warbosses that smash enemies in melee, and that is absurd.

Exsactly this! The only cc unit we have that is worth taking is boyz and stormboyz and even then we have to throw in a bunch of other hws and elites to buff them to be competitive. Not to mention a smart player would block their shooting units with good bubble wrap like rhinos or conscripts. When we charge them they just pull back or blow up and the boyz get mowed down by the troops behind.

I have spent all this money on models that apparently shouldn't exist according to these people.

Also no idea who said about Kustom Blasters no longer getting hot but we do! On a roll of a 1 we take a mortal wound. We don't even get a chance to pick if we want to make them stronger for a risk... they just take a mortal wound on a 1. So with -1 to hit most of our units have the same chance to hit themselves than hit the enemy!

malcontent999 wrote:
Don't know when you started playing, but you could make at least a semi-competative shoot ork army in practically every edition but this one.

+1 to this. In fact, there were many editions where you could create a competitive shooty Ork army but could not create a competitive melee Ork army.

 Melissia wrote:

malcontent999 wrote:
Don't know when you started playing, but you could make at least a semi-competative shoot ork army in practically every edition but this one.

+1 to this. In fact, there were many editions where you could create a competitive shooty Ork army but could not create a competitive melee Ork army.

This is why i am confused with all these players coming in saying "well actually orks have always been cc". I know that ork shooty armies are and was a thing until this edition!

One of the Ork Warbosses that used to be a SC for example had Space Marine level shooting! The Bad Moon overlord under Ghazgghull.

It's like when the Imperium first discovered Ork Kommandos existed; the thought that orks could be good at anything other than just charging straight forward was pure heresy.

People want Orks to be one dimensional - so facing them is like shooting fish in a barrel. [That said, people seem to want every army that isn't theirs to be one dimensional, so that's a while 'nother issue...]

@Hobojesus: I play(ed) shooty orks.

malcontent999 wrote:

Don't know when you started playing, but you could make at least a semi-competative shoot ork army in practically every edition but this one.

You can certainly make a semi-competetive shooty ork army in this edition. When using power-levels you can make an imba broken OP shooty list.

pismakron wrote:

malcontent999 wrote:

Don't know when you started playing, but you could make at least a semi-competative shoot ork army in practically every edition but this one.

You can certainly make a semi-competetive shooty ork army in this edition. When using power-levels you can make an imba broken OP shooty list.

I've tried but even back before the codex the points on everything other than mek gunz were wasted (and mek gunz cost £28 per gun so I never got any). The Morkanaut has less shooting and attacks than the Gorkanaut but is more expensive with the kff at 370pts, 15 lootas is above 250 pts (remember, against a kot of armies you just move these and they can't even fire)... And with their 6 up save at 250pts you want to put them in cover or spend another 150pts on a wagon just to help them survive so not the best in terms of flexibility and tactical use. So not only have we just spent 250+pts on a stationary paper thin unit that only needs a few wounds to die to moral (on a unit that in lore is basically the average infintry for one klan) but for 250pts your enemy has got himself double the requirements to turn 1 kill your 250pts. It's hard to express how expensive a full squad is for a strength 4 unit that has a 6 up save and 1 wound and BS 5+ while holding a heavy weapon. And that's not even going into the fact it's £15 for 4 of them.

 Jidmah wrote:

tneva82 wrote:And why every army has to be great at shooting? Why orks need to be able to outshoot IG? What's wrong with having h2h armies where shooting is just useful addition? Why every army has to be same(shooty)?

We don't want to outshoot IG. We just want to have the same amount of hits for the same points with our inferior weapons, which all have less AP, range and/or strength than the imperial equivalents. Thank you.

This. If a 40k army isn't focused on shooting, it should have fewer options, not less point efficiency. Should kroot be just as inefficient per model? If the Tau were written like orks, kroot would cost 12 points each, not 6. Written like orks, Spacewolves would pay 7 points per bolter instead of zero.

usmcmidn wrote:
From the last couple posts I have read... what I’ve gathered from is

you want Orks to always hit 5+ shooting no matter codex or psychic special rules...

Have a better armor save...

And points reduction?

While not nerfing them in CC, stats, or abilities?

Sounds fair, balanced, and a fun army to play against...

Yeah, because obviously orks are already shooting everybody off the table with no chance to retaliate. Giving them any boost would make them dominate everything. No wait, we are paying 72 or 83 points for models that have no other role than shooting rokkits that will hit every other turn. Meanwhile, the space marines field and entire tactical squad that can shoot stuff from cover across the battlefield with a missile launcher for 90 with better saves, better ballistic skill, an alternative fire mode, additional shots, objective secured and - gasp - better close combat ability.
No one wants boyz, kommandoz or stormboyz to get better so stop wetting your MK X power armor.

So yes, we want to always hit on 5+ shooting because orks simply cannot shoot any Alaitoc skimmer, flyers or rangers. We cannot ever shoot raven guard storm ravens which are a hard counter to most of our army. We cannot ever shoot a flyer buffed by Tigurius, a Ghostkeel or tons of other things. But gretchin! Yeah, we can field kanz that actually have good weapons and BS4+, but the only ones that actually stand a chance of killing vehicles are 63 points a piece. So hitting on sixes, with S8 and AP-2 against T7 vehicles means we just need to field 3402 points of rokkit kanz to kill a flyer with additional -1 hit buff of any sort and 5103 points of kanz to kill one wave serpent on average per turn. No, wait, there is one unit more efficient at killing those -2 hit models, which are big gun kannons. For just 2187 points of kannons you can savely expect to down one Alaitoc wave serpent per turn. Let's hope those Alaitoc fellows don't shoot back!

And yes, we want better survivability on our expensive models. Almost every army has some way to kill a ton of boyz. And they need to, 120 boyz marching at them while another 30 jump into their back is really dangerous and should not turn into an auto-loss for anybody. However, when getting shot tank bustaz, burnaz, lootaz or flash gits are in no way more survivable than those 6 points boyz. There is no reason to field units that cost 200+ points that will die twice or even three times as fast as less points invested in boyz which are already one of the most easily killed models in the game.

Third, yes we need point drops. Almost everything in our codex costs way more than equivalent models from other codices, without being better. Without weird boyz being able to smite and boyz being so deadly in combat (both due to changes in the general rules) the ork army would not have any good army compositions at all.

CC stats also don't matter when you are carrying an autocannon. You want to shoot that autocannon, not hit people in the head with it.

Or you could just have a rule to always hit on a 6. Why should Orks get that mechanic when they're not aiming in the first place?

Yeah, orks have this funny thing that, their best units: Boyz, Stormboyz, and the green tide lists, is actually balanced with most of the rest of the game. So you just need to make everything at least balanced with boyz and green tide, and then you have a Competitive Ork Codex full of options without being OP.
Even with the free bonuses the green tide list is gonna receive: Klan traits, Warlords traits, stratagems, etc... it will be still pretty balanced.

And yes, always hitting on a 6+ would be good. Is the same phylosophy as everything wounding on a 6. You don't want units that literally can't hit or wound your enemy.

And I agree that Orks have many things that are overpriced, but I think the best solution is, instead of just making them cheaper, is making them cheaper but not as cheaper as the first option suggest, and improve their rules, to make them worthwhile and more effective. This way you have the "Orks are crappy but they are many so they balance out" feeling of the army without the "you need 4000€ of ork models to have a 2000p army" problem.

I don't expect a Battlewagong to costs the same points as Land Raider, even when they have only a 8€ difference (53€ BW vs 61€ LD ), being the LD 15% more expensive than the BW. But I don't want a Battlewagong to costs half the points of a Land Raider, or even less. Make it something like 70-75% the points, but made him worthwhile at least.

 lolman1c wrote:


I've tried but even back before the codex the points on everything other than mek gunz were wasted (and mek gunz cost £28 per gun so I never got any). The Morkanaut has less shooting and attacks than the Gorkanaut but is more expensive with the kff at 370pts, 15 lootas is above 250 pts (remember, against a kot of armies you just move these and they can't even fire)... And with their 6 up save at 250pts you want to put them in cover or spend another 150pts on a wagon just to help them survive so not the best in terms of flexibility and tactical use. So not only have we just spent 250+pts on a stationary paper thin unit that only needs a few wounds to die to moral (on a unit that in lore is basically the average infintry for one klan) but for 250pts your enemy has got himself double the requirements to turn 1 kill your 250pts. It's hard to express how expensive a full squad is for a strength 4 unit that has a 6 up save and 1 wound and BS 5+ while holding a heavy weapon. And that's not even going into the fact it's £15 for 4 of them.

Both the morkanaut and the gorkanaut are close-combat oriented with very little shooting to speak of. And of the two the morkanaut is by far the worse option. And lootas are just not competitive right now. They are too fragile on foot and too expensive in a transport/bunker. But none of this has anything to do with negative hit-modifiers.

Our best shooting units are Kans, min-squad warbikers and shoota-boyz. Tankbustas are great also, but only in a mechanized or squig list.

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, orks have this funny thing that, their best units: Boyz, Stormboyz, and the green tide lists, is actually balanced with most of the rest of the game. So you just need to make everything at least balanced with boyz and green tide, and then you have a Competitive Ork Codex full of options without being OP.
Even with the free bonuses the green tide list is gonna receive: Klan traits, Warlords traits, stratagems, etc... it will be still pretty balanced.

And yes, always hitting on a 6+ would be good. Is the same phylosophy as everything wounding on a 6. You don't want units that literally can't hit or wound your enemy.

And I agree that Orks have many things that are overpriced, but I think the best solution is, instead of just making them cheaper, is making them cheaper but not as cheaper as the first option suggest, and improve their rules, to make them worthwhile and more effective. This way you have the "Orks are crappy but they are many so they balance out" feeling of the army without the "you need 4000€ of ork models to have a 2000p army" problem.

Yep. As far as I know, there is no buff that forces -2 to weapon skill, is there? How many -1 to hit rules are there for assaults? If GW cared about balance, there would be plenty of -2 to hit in cc combos. Where are they?

Could you imagine Tau being forced to roll a 7 to hit in combat?

Nope. Neither can I. That privilege is reserved for orks, and orks alone.

Making every 6 a hit, ignoring modifiers, would actually benefit orks the best.

Theres a good bunch of -2 out there, but for orks that would be only a -1, when others armies would have the full -2 like Imperial Guard or Tau, hitting on 6's. A -3 would make marines hit on a 6, when orks will hit on a 6 too, but marines pay for their 3+ BS.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, orks have this funny thing that, their best units: Boyz, Stormboyz, and the green tide lists, is actually balanced with most of the rest of the game. So you just need to make everything at least balanced with boyz and green tide, and then you have a Competitive Ork Codex full of options without being OP.
Even with the free bonuses the green tide list is gonna receive: Klan traits, Warlords traits, stratagems, etc... it will be still pretty balanced.

And yes, always hitting on a 6+ would be good. Is the same phylosophy as everything wounding on a 6. You don't want units that literally can't hit or wound your enemy.

And I agree that Orks have many things that are overpriced, but I think the best solution is, instead of just making them cheaper, is making them cheaper but not as cheaper as the first option suggest, and improve their rules, to make them worthwhile and more effective. This way you have the "Orks are crappy but they are many so they balance out" feeling of the army without the "you need 4000€ of ork models to have a 2000p army" problem.

Yep. As far as I know, there is no buff that forces -2 to weapon skill, is there? How many -1 to hit rules are there for assaults? If GW cared about balance, there would be plenty of -2 to hit in cc combos. Where are they?

Could you imagine Tau being forced to roll a 7 to hit in combat?

Nope. Neither can I. That privilege is reserved for orks, and orks alone.

That is a strange way of looking at it. A negative modifier in close combat would be absolutely harmless to Tau, mostly harmless to IG, but be very disadvantageous to Orks, and severely crippling to Tyranids.

The reverse is true for negative modifiers to shooting. -2 to hit in the shooting phase would absolutely cripple IG or Tau whereas Orks and Nids would probably do alright under such circumstances. Genestealers, Nobs, Sluggaboyz, Gorkanauts and Hormagaunts would be largely unaffected.

 lolman1c wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

malcontent999 wrote:
Don't know when you started playing, but you could make at least a semi-competative shoot ork army in practically every edition but this one.

+1 to this. In fact, there were many editions where you could create a competitive shooty Ork army but could not create a competitive melee Ork army.

This is why i am confused with all these players coming in saying "well actually orks have always been cc". I know that ork shooty armies are and was a thing until this edition!

The majority of people on this board never witnessed 2nd Orks which were quite shooty. But from 3rd onwards GW retconned the Orks into green Tyranids with BS 2 and A 2. So a ranged -2 to hit modifier makes the enemy invulnerable to Ork guns? That´s just bad game design. Orks need a special rule with a fixed 5+ (6+ is too bad) which can´t be modified or a BS (4+). If you go with the latter option, you might as well tone down their close combat prowess. According to this change, the Tyranids would have then a right to exist in 40K without being surpassed by the Greenskins in a brawl.

It’s going to be funny to see a very well trained Space Marine or trained guardsman hitting on a 6+ but Orks still hitting on their 5+ for shooting.... the 5+ is a bit silly to never ever have a modifier impact your ballistic skill. I get the it’s random but If I take cover from random shooting or wear some type of cloak that makes me harder to see I’m still going to have a better chance of not getting hit randomly then if I was just sitting in the open. It sounds so foolish to me that Orks want never hitting on anything other than 5+ even with army special rules, cap at 6+.

As for the armor, if you are arguing every boy should have a 5+ save that is a little silly as well like you said green tide thing, I get it you may think it’s boring but others do not having the green tide come at you, get turn 1 charges off because of special rules and then having a 5+ save seems OP... again my .02. If you are arguing giving some type of elite unit an equivalent to carapace armor, that would be cool.

As for the individual points reductions I can’t really comment on that, all I know is the last guy I played Orks against was some dude who fielded 200+ Orks in a 2000 point list.... game took forever and wasn’t fun. He also was pumping a ton of shooting attacks on me pretty well despite my Raven Guard special rule, pretty effectively. Thank baby Jesus for his very poor dice rolling.

usmcmidn wrote:
It’s going to be funny to see a very well trained Space Marine or trained guardsman hitting on a 6+ but Orks still hitting on their 5+ for shooting.... the 5+ is a bit silly to never ever have a modifier impact your ballistic skill. I get the it’s random but If I take cover from random shooting or wear some type of cloak that makes me harder to see I’m still going to have a better chance of not getting hit randomly then if I was just sitting in the open. It sounds so foolish to me that Orks want never hitting on anything other than 5+ even with army special rules, cap at 6+.

As for the armor, if you are arguing every boy should have a 5+ save that is a little silly as well like you said green tide thing, I get it you may think it’s boring but others do not having the green tide come at you, get turn 1 charges off because of special rules and then having a 5+ save seems OP... again my .02. If you are arguing giving some type of elite unit an equivalent to carapace armor, that would be cool.

As for the individual points reductions I can’t really comment on that, all I know is the last guy I played Orks against was some dude who fielded 200+ Orks in a 2000 point list.... game took forever and wasn’t fun. Thank baby Jesus for his very poor dice rolling.

Its almost like Orks could potentially shoot better in ONE specific circumstance - when the enemy is stacking -1/-2/-3 to hit modifiers. Outside of that, Orks are worse at shooting - throw them a bone for once in their life.

Regarding 5+ save; every guardsman, who is far cheaper and shootier, has a 5+ save - it's not like we're talking about elite units here. I'm not saying Orks should have 5+; but I agree they should have options for 'Ard Boyz (4+). Sure, Orks are better in melee, but Guardsman can come real close with a Priest/Catachan character.

Also... the only reason you faced a 200+ ork list at 2000 points is because... it's literally the only way to have a decent change with the current Xenos Index - Orks can't shoot, can't have armor, can't have vehicles, can't have anything - except Boyz; which means, you get as many as you can and hope you don't get shot off the table before/once you reach the enemies lines.

There's no other way to play them, and that's the problem. Green Tide should be a viable playstyle - but not the only one.

usmcmidn wrote:
It’s going to be funny to see a very well trained Space Marine or trained guardsman hitting on a 6+ but Orks still hitting on their 5+ for shooting.... the 5+ is a bit silly to never ever have a modifier impact your ballistic skill. I get the it’s random but If I take cover from random shooting or wear some type of cloak that makes me harder to see I’m still going to have a better chance of not getting hit randomly then if I was just sitting in the open. It sounds so foolish to me that Orks want never hitting on anything other than 5+ even with army special rules, cap at 6+.

As for the armor, if you are arguing every boy should have a 5+ save that is a little silly as well like you said green tide thing, I get it you may think it’s boring but others do not having the green tide come at you, get turn 1 charges off because of special rules and then having a 5+ save seems OP... again my .02. If you are arguing giving some type of elite unit an equivalent to carapace armor, that would be cool.

As for the individual points reductions I can’t really comment on that, all I know is the last guy I played Orks against was some dude who fielded 200+ Orks in a 2000 point list.... game took forever and wasn’t fun. Thank baby Jesus for his very poor dice rolling.

A fixed 5+ to hit roll sounds not foolish at all. Orks are supposed to be there for comedic relief and are therefore not able to hit a barn door at point blank range. To increase the odds in their favour they just use a lot of Dakka. Think of it as a unique perk that separates the Greenskins from the rest of the other factions. It is the games designers´ job to balance this all out but apparently they have decided to give the Orks the middle finger which is not a novelty. Another orky staple is bad saves for their units but a lot of wounds for their big stuff like Stompas and Battlewagons.

 Strg Alt wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:
It’s going to be funny to see a very well trained Space Marine or trained guardsman hitting on a 6+ but Orks still hitting on their 5+ for shooting.... the 5+ is a bit silly to never ever have a modifier impact your ballistic skill. I get the it’s random but If I take cover from random shooting or wear some type of cloak that makes me harder to see I’m still going to have a better chance of not getting hit randomly then if I was just sitting in the open. It sounds so foolish to me that Orks want never hitting on anything other than 5+ even with army special rules, cap at 6+.

As for the armor, if you are arguing every boy should have a 5+ save that is a little silly as well like you said green tide thing, I get it you may think it’s boring but others do not having the green tide come at you, get turn 1 charges off because of special rules and then having a 5+ save seems OP... again my .02. If you are arguing giving some type of elite unit an equivalent to carapace armor, that would be cool.

As for the individual points reductions I can’t really comment on that, all I know is the last guy I played Orks against was some dude who fielded 200+ Orks in a 2000 point list.... game took forever and wasn’t fun. Thank baby Jesus for his very poor dice rolling.

A fixed 5+ to hit roll sounds not foolish at all. Orks are supposed to be there for comedic relief and are therefore not able to hit a barn door at point blank range. To increase the odds in their favour they just use a lot of Dakka. Think of it as a unique perk that separates the Greenskins from the rest of the other factions. It is the games designers´ job to balance this all out but apparently they have decided to give the Orks the middle finger which is not a novelty. Another orky staple is bad saves for their units but a lot of wounds for their big stuff like Stompas and Battlewagons.

It's absolutely foolish for balance reasons. I don't mind a cap of 6+ to hit, but the 5+ is silly.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:
It’s going to be funny to see a very well trained Space Marine or trained guardsman hitting on a 6+ but Orks still hitting on their 5+ for shooting.... the 5+ is a bit silly to never ever have a modifier impact your ballistic skill. I get the it’s random but If I take cover from random shooting or wear some type of cloak that makes me harder to see I’m still going to have a better chance of not getting hit randomly then if I was just sitting in the open. It sounds so foolish to me that Orks want never hitting on anything other than 5+ even with army special rules, cap at 6+.

As for the armor, if you are arguing every boy should have a 5+ save that is a little silly as well like you said green tide thing, I get it you may think it’s boring but others do not having the green tide come at you, get turn 1 charges off because of special rules and then having a 5+ save seems OP... again my .02. If you are arguing giving some type of elite unit an equivalent to carapace armor, that would be cool.

As for the individual points reductions I can’t really comment on that, all I know is the last guy I played Orks against was some dude who fielded 200+ Orks in a 2000 point list.... game took forever and wasn’t fun. Thank baby Jesus for his very poor dice rolling.

A fixed 5+ to hit roll sounds not foolish at all. Orks are supposed to be there for comedic relief and are therefore not able to hit a barn door at point blank range. To increase the odds in their favour they just use a lot of Dakka. Think of it as a unique perk that separates the Greenskins from the rest of the other factions. It is the games designers´ job to balance this all out but apparently they have decided to give the Orks the middle finger which is not a novelty. Another orky staple is bad saves for their units but a lot of wounds for their big stuff like Stompas and Battlewagons.

It's absolutely foolish for balance reasons. I don't mind a cap of 6+ to hit, but the 5+ is silly.

What makes it foolish?

A "Every 6 to hit roll is a hit" rule benefits Orks the most of every army agaisn't all kind of -1 hit bonuses. And is much more easy to balance than just "Always hit on a 5+".

If you guys are not going to give and take then cap all shooting every army wide at 5+... it’s fair you get yours and can’t somehow outshoot humanity’s finest. Problem solved, still makes no sense to me but that would be balanced.

As for the armor thing I’m still saving Guard should have better armor. Orks get a lot of attacks, increased strength, maybe more numbers, and now will be better in some instances in the shooting phase if everyone caps at a 5+... keep the oh look a metal plate at 6+ and oh a cheap special plastic Kevlar vest that we can’t fathom because of our level of technology at 5+.

usmcmidn wrote:
If you guys are not going to give and take then cap all shooting every army wide at 5+... it’s fair you get yours and can’t somehow outshoot humanity’s finest. Problem solved, still makes no sense to me but that would be balanced.

As for the armor thing I’m still saving Guard should have better armor. Orks get a lot of attacks, increased strength, maybe more numbers, and now will be better in some instances in the shooting phase if everyone caps at a 5+... keep the oh look a metal plate at 6+ and oh a cheap special plastic Kevlar vest that we can’t fathom because of our level of technology at 5+.

Fluff should never have any impact on balance.

fe40k wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:
If you guys are not going to give and take then cap all shooting every army wide at 5+... it’s fair you get yours and can’t somehow outshoot humanity’s finest. Problem solved, still makes no sense to me but that would be balanced.

As for the armor thing I’m still saving Guard should have better armor. Orks get a lot of attacks, increased strength, maybe more numbers, and now will be better in some instances in the shooting phase if everyone caps at a 5+... keep the oh look a metal plate at 6+ and oh a cheap special plastic Kevlar vest that we can’t fathom because of our level of technology at 5+.

Fluff should never have any impact on balance.

Ideally, the game should try to addere to fluff and be balanced respecting that fluff as much as possible, with very obvious compromises. Otherwhise you end like 9th Age, with the game not being warhammer anymore.

That’s why I’m saying the only fair thing to do at this point is cap all, not just Ork, armies at a never hit less than 5+...

This is stupid to me but everyone wins.

 Galas wrote:
A "Every 6 to hit roll is a hit" rule benefits Orks the most of every army agaisn't all kind of -1 hit bonuses. And is much more easy to balance than just "Always hit on a 5+".

Against a lot of armies currently Orks hit on a 5+, since not every army is taking -1 to hit. Yet I can say with complete confidence that if there's anyone out there who is getting blown off the table by Ork firepower, they're in a very, very small minority.

That's why it wouldn't be unbalanced for Orks to always hit on 5's. Ork shooting not working in 8th is not just a result of -1 modifiers; it's the result of base changes in 8th. Cover is much harder for Orks to get, since we tend to take big units to negate our poor Leadership, and it also provides the least benefit to us due to our poor armour saves. In previous recent editions, cover was how a lot of our shooting units gains survivability. They don't have that option anymore. Blast weapons used to be a way for Orks to negate poor ballistic skill, but now they hit just as poorly as all our other shooting. The twin-linked change handed Orks a very small increase in firepower but handed every other army a big increase, especially on armies that hit on a 3+. That meant that our shooting units were suddenly facing a much higher amount of firepower coming their way, whilst not being able to retaliate much better.

Much of this could be negated by appropriate points cost changes. But handing Orks a rule saying "Always hit on 5+" isn't going to create any balance problems because it's not causing balance problems now.