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 Blackie wrote:
Actually there was only one unit of boyz with a 4+ save

'Ard Boyz existed as an upgrade to standard boyz up until 8th edition, as well as an upgrade to nobz and HQs.

You can argue it was never a GOOD upgrade, but the same can be said of a lot of upgrades that are still available. The answer to an upgrade being bad in gameplay isn't to remove it, it's to make it good, otherwise we'll remove all upgrades save the best one and then just say screw it and make that default, so that you have no other upgrades.

Or, in other words, yes, 'eavy armor was overcosted. So it should have had its points cost reduced so that it was useful, but still had a tradeoff. But arguing it didn't exist just demonstrates your ignorance of Orks, because it did exist.

40K Orks need Black Orks. Nobz are just a sad copycat.

 Galas wrote:
40K Orks need Black Orks. Nobz are just a sad copycat.

I’ve always seen Nobz as a fairly decent copy over. Are you talking game mechanics or lore?

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

 Galas wrote:
40K Orks need Black Orks. Nobz are just a sad copycat.

I’ve always seen Nobz as a fairly decent copy over. Are you talking game mechanics or lore?

Lore, and to be honest, Aesthetics. But I'm biased. Black Orcs are alongside Krell Lord of Undead and Chaos Warriors my top 3 of all time favourite GW miniatures, with Bel'Akor in top 4

 Galas wrote:
40K Orks need Black Orks. Nobz are just a sad copycat.

You're gonna need to explain this because I don't play Sigmar.

Could they make is so that 6s always hit? Can you think of a problem that could arise with that rule?
Sorry if you talked about that, I'm to lazy to read whole thread.

Well. In one hand, you have this brutal sub-race of Greenskins, breed to be the perfect war machines by their tyranical Chaos Dwarf lords, that did a rebellion agaisn't their masters nearly destroying their empire, and becoming one of the most powerfull type of warriors in the known world. To the point where the Black Orc character headbutted the final bad of the setting.

In the other hand you have Nobzs that are... slighly bigger orks and a little more serious. And I'm pretty sure theres not a chance of Ghaz'kull headbutting a Chaos Primarch, not even Abaddon.

But this comes down to the fact, that I find Greenskins of Fantasy a much better army than Orks of 40k. Much more interesting, well rounded and with much more variety.
And I think thats the problem with Orks. If Gretchins where like Goblins in Fantasy, where they form half of the actual greenskin army, they could have the weight of the shooting power of the Orks, like they do in fantasy.

Azhday wrote:
Could they make is so that 6s always hit? Can you think of a problem that could arise with that rule?
Sorry if you talked about that, I'm to lazy to read whole thread.

Yeah, I think everybody agrees that one should be a core-rule, like a 6 always wound.

Yes, give me Grot snipers please.

(And bomb squig hoppers!)

 Galas wrote:
Well. In one hand, you have this brutal sub-race of Greenskins, breed to be the perfect war machines by their tyranical Chaos Dwarf lords, that did a rebellion agaisn't their masters nearly destroying their empire, and becoming one of the most powerfull type of warriors in the known world. To the point where the Black Orc character headbutted the final bad of the setting.

In the other hand you have Nobzs that are... slighly bigger orks and a little more serious. And I'm pretty sure theres not a chance of Ghaz'kull headbutting a Chaos Primarch, not even Abaddon.

But this comes down to the fact, that I find Greenskins of Fantasy a much better army than Orks of 40k. Much more interesting, well rounded and with much more variety.
And I think thats the problem with Orks. If Gretchins where like Goblins in Fantasy, where they form half of the actual greenskin army, they could have the weight of the shooting power of the Orks, like they do in fantasy.

Azhday wrote:
Could they make is so that 6s always hit? Can you think of a problem that could arise with that rule?
Sorry if you talked about that, I'm to lazy to read whole thread.

Yeah, I think everybody agrees that one should be a core-rule, like a 6 always wound.

Amen to that. I feel the same way and I kinda wish there was more of a way to reflect the inner dichotomy of Orkish society similar to how WHFB did so well with Orcs and Gobbos. They even had the Size Matters rule, where other units wouldn't panic if they were "bigger" than the other Greenskins that were fleeing.

Ork Nobz to me always felt closer to the Big Bosses of WHFB, given their size and stats. I think a better analogue for Black Orcs if we wanted an equivalent in 40K would to bring back Skarboyz, which were the in-between spot between normal Boyz and Nobz. Before the change to boyz having S4 in 8th ed, Skarboyz basically were slightly bigger and stronger so they had S4 rather than S3 like Boyz in previous editions. I think they also had some form of FNP to represent their "battle skars" and how they were calloused and tough.

Skarboyz could effectively replace 'ard boyz in that regard, maybe make them S5 base and have 5+ or 4+ armour to represent their greater toughness and pecking order in having better armour than the ladz. Giving them weapon uprade options like Big Choppas could also reflect the options that Black Orcs had between choppas and great weapons.

tneva82 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Untargetable units are only going to get more common. I expect most factions to get a <> with the -1 to hit tactic, and with everyone but spehss mahreens getting their tactics on everything that means everyone's fliers are gonna be -2 to hit.

Hhopefully not that common. Tyranids didn't get one. On that predecense maybe not orks. Maybe GW is not giving them to horde armies.

Tyranids don't need a -1 to hit trait. They have a unit called a Venomthrope that grants -1 to hit aura. Just as daemons have a Changeling that grants a -1 to hit aura. Two of the horde armies already have -1 to hit access before even getting a codex.

Oh if the new spore cysts stack with the new Venomthrope rules then a Tyranid Carnifex will be -2 to shoot at.

 Arkaine wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Untargetable units are only going to get more common. I expect most factions to get a <> with the -1 to hit tactic, and with everyone but spehss mahreens getting their tactics on everything that means everyone's fliers are gonna be -2 to hit.

Hhopefully not that common. Tyranids didn't get one. On that predecense maybe not orks. Maybe GW is not giving them to horde armies.

Tyranids don't need a -1 to hit trait. They have a unit called a Venomthrope that grants -1 to hit aura. Just as daemons have a Changeling that grants a -1 to hit aura. Two of the horde armies already have -1 to hit access before even getting a codex.

Oh if the new spore cysts stack with the new Venomthrope rules then a Tyranid Carnifex will be -2 to shoot at.

Sad face. Too bad squads of tankbustas and lootas that are 1.1 inches away from that carnifex will not be allowed to shoot at it, because rules.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Untargetable units are only going to get more common. I expect most factions to get a <> with the -1 to hit tactic, and with everyone but spehss mahreens getting their tactics on everything that means everyone's fliers are gonna be -2 to hit.

Hhopefully not that common. Tyranids didn't get one. On that predecense maybe not orks. Maybe GW is not giving them to horde armies.

Tyranids don't need a -1 to hit trait. They have a unit called a Venomthrope that grants -1 to hit aura. Just as daemons have a Changeling that grants a -1 to hit aura. Two of the horde armies already have -1 to hit access before even getting a codex.

Oh if the new spore cysts stack with the new Venomthrope rules then a Tyranid Carnifex will be -2 to shoot at.

Sad face. Too bad squads of tankbustas and lootas that are 1.1 inches away from that carnifex will not be allowed to shoot at it, because rules.

Hopefully they won't stack.

I suppose for now the obvious answer (besides "wait for our codex and pray to Gork and/or Mork for some shiny rules of our own") is to smash anything with -2 to hit the proppa Orky way, up close and personal like.

I'm not actually convinced this is such a big deal in practice. Even units with BS 4+ are only hitting on 6's so we're not the only ones that are in trouble. Frankly, not too many armies are going to look at something with a -2 to hit modifier vs shooting and think "shooting that thing is the answer", marines don't put out enough volume of fire to overcome a 5+ to hit for example. Admittedly a 17% or a 33% chance to hit is a different kettle of fish entirely from 0% chance to hit, but Boyz have the close combat power to compensate that, say, Guard for the most part simply don't. Guard needing 6's to hit something basically means they don't have anything that can deal with it, whereas for us it just means that plan B ("dakka") is off the table, while plan A ("krump 'em") still works just fine.

Aside from that, between big/mek guns, kans, dakka jets, grots, and gitz, there's a fair amount of stuff in the codex that has BS 4+ if you really, really want that 6+ to hit vs a -2 modifier, just to say that you can theoretically shoot it.

Eh, the -1 to hits are a big deal. The game wasn't balanced around them. These models weren't priced according to how durable they become when made impossible to shoot at. Alpha Legion marines are more durable than Renegade marines at no additional point cost.

Flyers I can understand. They have -1 to hit and were priced accordingly. But all these auras and legion rules are tacking on bonuses that the game was not built to handle, as the Ork problem is demonstrating. Chaos Lords giving things reroll 1s is at least somewhat fair in that you paid for the model, like buying a psychic power in old editions or some neat aura-based artifact.

It's a big deal but it is what it is.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Sad face. Too bad squads of tankbustas and lootas that are 1.1 inches away from that carnifex will not be allowed to shoot at it, because rules.

At least in the previews it says that the Carnifex upgrade simulates the Venomtrope clouds, so chances are pretty good of them not stacking.

 Jidmah wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Sad face. Too bad squads of tankbustas and lootas that are 1.1 inches away from that carnifex will not be allowed to shoot at it, because rules.

At least in the previews it says that the Carnifex upgrade simulates the Venomtrope clouds, so chances are pretty good of them not stacking.

Chances are good that the intention wasn't for them to stack. Given how GW writes rules though, they very well might stack.

It says it right on the Carnifex datasheet that it doesn't stack with the spore cloud ability.

Since I finally managed to read the new Eldar Codex... what exactly is preventing the Alaitoc Craftworld trait from stacking with Vectored Engines and Conceal? You know, since I was insulted multiple times for not knowing my rules, I'm kind of curious now.

Unless I'm missing something, basically any Alaitoc vehicle with access to vehicle upgrade (all the hover tanks) can now become -2 to hit when advancing for 10 points.

In addition, the Alaitoc relic can also make any infantry character -2 to hit (the actual usefulness of this is questionable, because they are already characters) and Alaitoc Warp Spiders are -2 to hit, though they lose a model on on 2d6 - which is a pretty awesome deal considering getting shot will most likely cause you to lose models anyways.

Why have a Character with -2 to hit? Snipers.

Moriarty wrote:
Why have a Character with -2 to hit? Snipers.

Eh....I guess? Snipers aren't actually in very high supply in most armies and typically aren't very efficient either. You're normally better off using normal dakka to kill off the stuff the HQ's are buffing than investing points in snipers.

On the plus side, I just played a game against new Eldar where he stacked - to hit modifiers like crazy and was exceptionally mad when I told him I didn't bring a single model with anything beyond range 12 S4. That was a pretty quick game.

On the downside, the reason that happened is that I have come to the conclusion that anything in my army that relies on shooting is now unplayable and has been shelved. 35 warbikes, 12 killa kanz , 6 Mek guns, 30 lootas, 2 dakka jets all sitting collecting dust while my huge Kommandos army is stomping faces.

If burna boyz didn’t suck so much already they might have been a decent piece of tech against -to hit modifiers. Maybe the codex will change that?

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
If burna boyz didn’t suck so much already they might have been a decent piece of tech against -to hit modifiers. Maybe the codex will change that?

Maybe. Unfortunately, Burna boyz are heavily reliant on several factors to make them viable.

a) cheaper transports. Seems possible but I'd be surprised to see the Trukk price drop any lower than 60.

b) revamped damage potential. The easiest fix is to simply make them have D6 auto hits with their burnas like every other flamer.

c) Cheaper cost. For their current price they are too fragile, slow and expensive to be considered a competitive choice.

We'll be lucky if we get 2 of the three I listed for changes in the codex, so sadly I doubt it :(