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It was a Howling Banshee, if you and I are thinking of the same thing.

It was a test sculpt for a new sculptor IIRC.

I'd just like to point out that simply adding shoulders could go a long way in making lighter armor look heavier or more ornamental. Similarly, there's no reason they couldn't revise the overall look to better fit a multi-kit aesthetic. For example, adding a backpack with 'trophy rack' to tie banshee aesthetics to look a little like guardians could allow for easy attachment of swooping hawk wings.

So it should be easy to make Swooping hawks and Banshees share a kit and their more athletic poses compliment flying poses as well. The difficulty, in my opinion, is with one being dual wield and the other using a 2handed weapon.

Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers may have different armor but their poses are similar. So introducing different shoulder pads could provide enough diversity in appearance to make the 2 stand out.

Finally, Spiders and Scorpions would have similarly sinister and stealthy poses. In addition, Spiders have the advantage of their backpack being the primary difference in look and it could be designed to go over a built in scorpion backpack on a torso quite easily and the backpack could easily work around the arms of dual wielding scorpions.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:


I can actually see Spiders and Hawks sharing a kit; just modify their backpacks so that it either accepts a pair of wings or some widgets on the side to bulk it out to spider-size (or alternatively shrink the packbacks). Stance wise, a running Spider can look like a swooping hawk.

Also, this is a pretty good idea that they even did for the Reivers. Their "grav-chutes" are attached to the backpack itself.

As much as I'd like plastic Eldar range, I really don't like the idea of only heads/weapons swaps... As a person who started in early 2nd, I still miss "proper" Mesh Armour on Guardians, which was abandoned only because plastic process back then made such detail impossible (how many of you here remember those hideous monopose plastic Guardians with plastic lasguns and pewter Shurikens?). Poseability of plastic is very nice, as long as it doesn't come at a cost of TRUE variation in details. This is one of the major reasons why I never liked Power Armour Marines - they all look to similiar unit-to-unit and I definately don't want such fate for Eldar range.

With such "preface" I agree with Galef, that Banshees/Hawks, Dragons/Reapers, Scorpions/Spiders make most sense. And Windriders/Shining spears could be doable, but because almost everything except bike itself would be different, Shining Spears Upgrade Pack (as it was available once before, before Jetbikes rework) is more desireable solution. With modern "tiny plastic bits" Dire Avengers/Guardians can also be different enough to be distinct (up to proper "mesh armour" level) - anyone here asembled Corpuscarii Electro-Priests lately? Their wrist bands and "aureolas" are VERY fine, small pieces...

nou wrote:
As much as I'd like plastic Eldar range, I really don't like the idea of only heads/weapons swaps... As a person who started in early 2nd, I still miss "proper" Mesh Armour on Guardians, which was abandoned only because plastic process back then made such detail impossible (how many of you here remember those hideous monopose plastic Guardians with plastic lasguns and pewter Shurikens?). Poseability of plastic is very nice, as long as it doesn't come at a cost of TRUE variation in details. This is one of the major reasons why I never liked Power Armour Marines - they all look to similiar unit-to-unit and I definately don't want such fate for Eldar range.

Which makes it all the funnier at how disliked Reivers were, when they tried to delineate different Power Armored units and their roles while still keeping the same armor save...

With such "preface" I agree with Galef, that Banshees/Hawks, Dragons/Reapers, Scorpions/Spiders make most sense. And Windriders/Shining spears could be doable, but because almost everything except bike itself would be different, Shining Spears Upgrade Pack (as it was available once before, before Jetbikes rework) is more desireable solution. With modern "tiny plastic bits" Dire Avengers/Guardians can also be different enough to be distinct (up to proper "mesh armour" level) - anyone here asembled Corpuscarii Electro-Priests lately? Their wrist bands and "aureolas" are VERY fine, small pieces...

Things like shoulderpads, a bit of 'snap on' armor over the greaves and wrists, cloth tabards or mantles, etc would go a long way towards making some of these things more different.

Imagine Hawks and Spiders sharing a kit, but with Spiders having some snap-on parts for their greaves and wrists that are extra armor while the hawks have tabards or feathered mantles that are draped over their shoulders that the spiders don't have, along with some clawed parts for their boots.

 Kanluwen wrote:

nou wrote:
As much as I'd like plastic Eldar range, I really don't like the idea of only heads/weapons swaps... As a person who started in early 2nd, I still miss "proper" Mesh Armour on Guardians, which was abandoned only because plastic process back then made such detail impossible (how many of you here remember those hideous monopose plastic Guardians with plastic lasguns and pewter Shurikens?). Poseability of plastic is very nice, as long as it doesn't come at a cost of TRUE variation in details. This is one of the major reasons why I never liked Power Armour Marines - they all look to similiar unit-to-unit and I definately don't want such fate for Eldar range.

Which makes it all the funnier at how disliked Reivers were, when they tried to delineate different Power Armored units and their roles while still keeping the same armor save...

With such "preface" I agree with Galef, that Banshees/Hawks, Dragons/Reapers, Scorpions/Spiders make most sense. And Windriders/Shining spears could be doable, but because almost everything except bike itself would be different, Shining Spears Upgrade Pack (as it was available once before, before Jetbikes rework) is more desireable solution. With modern "tiny plastic bits" Dire Avengers/Guardians can also be different enough to be distinct (up to proper "mesh armour" level) - anyone here asembled Corpuscarii Electro-Priests lately? Their wrist bands and "aureolas" are VERY fine, small pieces...

Things like shoulderpads, a bit of 'snap on' armor over the greaves and wrists, cloth tabards or mantles, etc would go a long way towards making some of these things more different.

Imagine Hawks and Spiders sharing a kit, but with Spiders having some snap-on parts for their greaves and wrists that are extra armor while the hawks have tabards or feathered mantles that are draped over their shoulders that the spiders don't have, along with some clawed parts for their boots.

My biggest issue with pairings like Hawks/Spiders is that stances and one two handed/two one handed weapons really don't mix all that well. You can surely make two handed weapons for almost any poses that make sense (some just may require "puzzle like" indentations like Skitari Rangers have), but two one handed weapons on such miniatures tend to look quite static. That is ok-ish for Scorpions "crouching and sneaking" stances paired with Spiders, but I simply don't see any logical way of achieving dynamic poses of Banshees or Hawks with any other aspects and even when pairing those two together you are restricted by not all that much different leg positions that could support both running and taking off/landing stances... One other thing, which can be seen with overdynamic kits like Harlequins - arms/legs/torsos are pretty much monopose, with just different weaponry and if you have more than one squad of them and want all of them look unique, you have to solve quite a puzzle of "what makes sense from anatomical standpoint" and do some converting/adapting. Personally I can get my head around repetitive static stances of "aiming", "resting" or even "fencing opening stances", as those do look natural and logical, but it's quite disturbing for me to have two or more dynamic models that look the same or that arms and legs on such dynamic models do not fit together into one, logical movement... Too much of a sculptor in me to be fine with such compromises.

On a tangent, what if GW reversed one of their more infamous missteps in pennypinching and re-released Dire Avengers at the SM tacticals price with 10 in a box again?

Would that be a good stopgap?

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
On a tangent, what if GW reversed one of their more infamous missteps in pennypinching and re-released Dire Avengers at the SM tacticals price with 10 in a box again?

Would that be a good stopgap?

They did it with Stormcast. But with AoS they have shown to be willing to do more "customer friendly" changes than with w40k. Because people will buy whatever they put for w40k, but they need to convince people to join AoS, and they know it.

 Galas wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
On a tangent, what if GW reversed one of their more infamous missteps in pennypinching and re-released Dire Avengers at the SM tacticals price with 10 in a box again?

Would that be a good stopgap?

They did it with Stormcast. But with AoS they have shown to be willing to do more "customer friendly" changes than with w40k. Because people will buy whatever they put for w40k, but they need to convince people to join AoS, and they know it.

I'm not sure they do. They could do a lot to make AoS seen better in the community at no or little cost but don't.

Yeah, 10 DAs for $40 would be great. Heck, even $25 for 5 would be ok. It's ridiculous that 5 DAs cost more that 10 Kabalites

nou wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

nou wrote:
As much as I'd like plastic Eldar range, I really don't like the idea of only heads/weapons swaps... As a person who started in early 2nd, I still miss "proper" Mesh Armour on Guardians, which was abandoned only because plastic process back then made such detail impossible (how many of you here remember those hideous monopose plastic Guardians with plastic lasguns and pewter Shurikens?). Poseability of plastic is very nice, as long as it doesn't come at a cost of TRUE variation in details. This is one of the major reasons why I never liked Power Armour Marines - they all look to similiar unit-to-unit and I definately don't want such fate for Eldar range.

Which makes it all the funnier at how disliked Reivers were, when they tried to delineate different Power Armored units and their roles while still keeping the same armor save...

With such "preface" I agree with Galef, that Banshees/Hawks, Dragons/Reapers, Scorpions/Spiders make most sense. And Windriders/Shining spears could be doable, but because almost everything except bike itself would be different, Shining Spears Upgrade Pack (as it was available once before, before Jetbikes rework) is more desireable solution. With modern "tiny plastic bits" Dire Avengers/Guardians can also be different enough to be distinct (up to proper "mesh armour" level) - anyone here asembled Corpuscarii Electro-Priests lately? Their wrist bands and "aureolas" are VERY fine, small pieces...

Things like shoulderpads, a bit of 'snap on' armor over the greaves and wrists, cloth tabards or mantles, etc would go a long way towards making some of these things more different.

Imagine Hawks and Spiders sharing a kit, but with Spiders having some snap-on parts for their greaves and wrists that are extra armor while the hawks have tabards or feathered mantles that are draped over their shoulders that the spiders don't have, along with some clawed parts for their boots.

My biggest issue with pairings like Hawks/Spiders is that stances and one two handed/two one handed weapons really don't mix all that well. You can surely make two handed weapons for almost any poses that make sense (some just may require "puzzle like" indentations like Skitari Rangers have), but two one handed weapons on such miniatures tend to look quite static. That is ok-ish for Scorpions "crouching and sneaking" stances paired with Spiders, but I simply don't see any logical way of achieving dynamic poses of Banshees or Hawks with any other aspects and even when pairing those two together you are restricted by not all that much different leg positions that could support both running and taking off/landing stances... One other thing, which can be seen with overdynamic kits like Harlequins - arms/legs/torsos are pretty much monopose, with just different weaponry and if you have more than one squad of them and want all of them look unique, you have to solve quite a puzzle of "what makes sense from anatomical standpoint" and do some converting/adapting. Personally I can get my head around repetitive static stances of "aiming", "resting" or even "fencing opening stances", as those do look natural and logical, but it's quite disturbing for me to have two or more dynamic models that look the same or that arms and legs on such dynamic models do not fit together into one, logical movement... Too much of a sculptor in me to be fine with such compromises.

Hawks and Spiders have a single two-handed weapon for both variants. Only the Warp Spider Exarch has the ability to take two 1 hand weapons IIRC.

They could also break with convention and make the new plastic Aspects share a dual-kit with a unit entry for another army entirely - I'm particularly thinking new units for the Ynnari.

Basically, have a kit that makes Dark Reapers (for example) alongside a similar heavily armoured unit unique to the Ynnari. This way, they get to make their plastic Craftworld Aspects while also serving the new class of Aeldari, who would be buying kits for both units.

I don't think the aspect warriors are similar enough to make for good dual kits. Some parts in common, absolutely, but you'd need lots of extra parts in the box to make it a dual kit.

 Kanluwen wrote:

nou wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

nou wrote:
As much as I'd like plastic Eldar range, I really don't like the idea of only heads/weapons swaps... As a person who started in early 2nd, I still miss "proper" Mesh Armour on Guardians, which was abandoned only because plastic process back then made such detail impossible (how many of you here remember those hideous monopose plastic Guardians with plastic lasguns and pewter Shurikens?). Poseability of plastic is very nice, as long as it doesn't come at a cost of TRUE variation in details. This is one of the major reasons why I never liked Power Armour Marines - they all look to similiar unit-to-unit and I definately don't want such fate for Eldar range.

Which makes it all the funnier at how disliked Reivers were, when they tried to delineate different Power Armored units and their roles while still keeping the same armor save...

With such "preface" I agree with Galef, that Banshees/Hawks, Dragons/Reapers, Scorpions/Spiders make most sense. And Windriders/Shining spears could be doable, but because almost everything except bike itself would be different, Shining Spears Upgrade Pack (as it was available once before, before Jetbikes rework) is more desireable solution. With modern "tiny plastic bits" Dire Avengers/Guardians can also be different enough to be distinct (up to proper "mesh armour" level) - anyone here asembled Corpuscarii Electro-Priests lately? Their wrist bands and "aureolas" are VERY fine, small pieces...

Things like shoulderpads, a bit of 'snap on' armor over the greaves and wrists, cloth tabards or mantles, etc would go a long way towards making some of these things more different.

Imagine Hawks and Spiders sharing a kit, but with Spiders having some snap-on parts for their greaves and wrists that are extra armor while the hawks have tabards or feathered mantles that are draped over their shoulders that the spiders don't have, along with some clawed parts for their boots.

My biggest issue with pairings like Hawks/Spiders is that stances and one two handed/two one handed weapons really don't mix all that well. You can surely make two handed weapons for almost any poses that make sense (some just may require "puzzle like" indentations like Skitari Rangers have), but two one handed weapons on such miniatures tend to look quite static. That is ok-ish for Scorpions "crouching and sneaking" stances paired with Spiders, but I simply don't see any logical way of achieving dynamic poses of Banshees or Hawks with any other aspects and even when pairing those two together you are restricted by not all that much different leg positions that could support both running and taking off/landing stances... One other thing, which can be seen with overdynamic kits like Harlequins - arms/legs/torsos are pretty much monopose, with just different weaponry and if you have more than one squad of them and want all of them look unique, you have to solve quite a puzzle of "what makes sense from anatomical standpoint" and do some converting/adapting. Personally I can get my head around repetitive static stances of "aiming", "resting" or even "fencing opening stances", as those do look natural and logical, but it's quite disturbing for me to have two or more dynamic models that look the same or that arms and legs on such dynamic models do not fit together into one, logical movement... Too much of a sculptor in me to be fine with such compromises.

Hawks and Spiders have a single two-handed weapon for both variants. Only the Warp Spider Exarch has the ability to take two 1 hand weapons IIRC.

I admit, I messed up that post a lot... That's why I should not post in a brief break from work or do not use short names for aspects - at first I confused Spiders in your post with Scorpions and responded after reading the whole thread in a hurry, with all previous propositions mixed up in my head... All my points stand, but I should sort things a bit:
- Hawks/Spiders combo have a problem of Spiders looking like light-footed balerinas when using same positions as Hawks or Hawks would have to look uninterestingly static. Same goes for every other aspect outside of Banshees, that can share legs with Hawks to large extents and still have plausible stances. It might be a good pairing if Spiders were made like they were depicted in one of DOW intros - like fast running and constantly jumping infantry with significantly lighter guns. But then we have a missing pairing for Banshees...
- Scorpions/anything-else have one handed/two handed weapons problem. All aspects except Banshees and Hawks currently have quite similiar, widespread legs with minimal dynamic to them, but if we have to make paired boxes, then semi-dynamic current heavy armour Spiders seem to be best pairing with crouching Scorpions.

strepp wrote:
They could also break with convention and make the new plastic Aspects share a dual-kit with a unit entry for another army entirely - I'm particularly thinking new units for the Ynnari.

Basically, have a kit that makes Dark Reapers (for example) alongside a similar heavily armoured unit unique to the Ynnari. This way, they get to make their plastic Craftworld Aspects while also serving the new class of Aeldari, who would be buying kits for both units.

It's funny you say this would break with convention, because Age of Sigmar actually has cross-faction dual kits right now!

Especially within the Aelf side of things.

Shadow Warriors are in the Swifthawk Agents list while their alternate build is in Wanderers.
Horse drawn chariot is in the Swifthawk Agents list while the Lion build is in the Lion Rangers.
Scourgerunner Chariot is Scourge Privateers while the Cold One Chariot is in the Ordo Serpentis.

There's more too.

 Cream Tea wrote:
I don't think the aspect warriors are similar enough to make for good dual kits. Some parts in common, absolutely, but you'd need lots of extra parts in the box to make it a dual kit.

No more extra bits than the Necron Immortal/Deathmark and Praetorian/Lych guard kits. Probably even less than those considering Immortals, Praetorians and Lych guard all have multiple different weapon options, unlike Aspects that all share 1 build with the Exarch haviing the only variation.

 Kanluwen wrote:

It's funny you say this would break with convention, because Age of Sigmar actually has cross-faction dual kits right now!

Especially within the Aelf side of things.

Shadow Warriors are in the Swifthawk Agents list while their alternate build is in Wanderers.
Horse drawn chariot is in the Swifthawk Agents list while the Lion build is in the Lion Rangers.
Scourgerunner Chariot is Scourge Privateers while the Cold One Chariot is in the Ordo Serpentis.

There's more too.

I'd hardly call those true "cross faction" kits considering each of those kits were part of the same faction when it was released. They are all High Elves, with the last 2 being Dark Elves.

-

We have kits that can make Blue Marines that can also make Red Marines. How much further does it need to go to go cross-faction?

 Galef wrote:

 Cream Tea wrote:
I don't think the aspect warriors are similar enough to make for good dual kits. Some parts in common, absolutely, but you'd need lots of extra parts in the box to make it a dual kit.

No more extra bits than the Necron Immortal/Deathmark and Praetorian/Lych guard kits. Probably even less than those considering Immortals, Praetorians and Lych guard all have multiple different weapon options, unlike Aspects that all share 1 build with the Exarch haviing the only variation.

I checked these out and they seem more similar than most aspect warriors to me. Weapons and heads are different, but the two units in each kit have similar poses suitable for the similar weaponry they're carrying. Much of the visual difference comes from the colour schemes they've been given.

Just make Hawks female from now on

 Galef wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

It's funny you say this would break with convention, because Age of Sigmar actually has cross-faction dual kits right now!

Especially within the Aelf side of things.

Shadow Warriors are in the Swifthawk Agents list while their alternate build is in Wanderers.
Horse drawn chariot is in the Swifthawk Agents list while the Lion build is in the Lion Rangers.
Scourgerunner Chariot is Scourge Privateers while the Cold One Chariot is in the Ordo Serpentis.

There's more too.

I'd hardly call those true "cross faction" kits considering each of those kits were part of the same faction when it was released. They are all High Elves, with the last 2 being Dark Elves.

-

Consider that Age of Sigmar had been in the works for something like 4-5 years prior to its release from all accounts that the design team gave. The background was a big deal from the way it's been explained. The exact breakdowns might not have been done 100%, but some of it showed up early on during the End Times: Khaine book on the part of the Aelf factions.

Shadow Warriors/Sisters of Avelorn, Scourgerunner/Cold One Chariots, Kharibdyss/War Hydra, Doomfire Warlocks/Dark Riders all at the very least fall within that design window.

Bharring wrote:
We have kits that can make Blue Marines that can also make Red Marines. How much further does it need to go to go cross-faction?

Technically the first cross-faction set ever made was the Chaos Biker, who can be assembled as a loyalist SM biker if I remember (from 3rd or 2nd edition).

Semantics aside, Galef probably means something that's truly cross-faction, like Scorpion/Incubus set or Wych/Deathcult Assassin. Or maybe (humorously) Chaplain/Dark Reaper.

I feel like that's a bit of an arbitrary line.

Do we consider the Dark Angels Veteran kit to be a Space Marine kit or a Dark Angels kit?

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
They were different pre-4th edition, but the 4th edition sculpts have moved them closer to "modified guardian armor" as part of GW's then-plan to give each faction a unified visual theme, so I can see some of them sharing a kit.

Ideally though it's still better to give them each their own kit so you can have the designers go hog-wild rather than constantly trying to marry two styles into one.

I feel like 2nd edition eldar looked pretty uniform and similar across some aspects. It was 3rd where things got stupid with skull head reapers, striking beavers and weird banshees. I thought the 2nd edition stuff looked like gak and 3rd looked amazing (I was 14 buying my first army...new shiny seemed better...) but when I returned to my eldar in 5th the latest sculpts seemed far superior and cohesive. I sure wish I didn’t sell all my metal aspects from 4/5 a couple years ago. I think I still have the 3rd edition stuff.

My entire aspect army is 3rd edition vintage (don't have spiders or hawks). My banshees and Fire Dragons managed to turn a friend onto 40k from the pure looks (and then she got out of 40k when she realized she can no longer buy them).

Fire dragons have always looked incredibly cool. 3rd edition scorps were among the ugliest aspects. Have warp spiders changed in the past 20 years? Their static poses were sort of lame back in the day and still are. Hawks haven’t changed either I don’t think and caused me fits back in the day (doesn’t have to bend on the base much before it just breaks off lol). Plastic aspects would be the push I need to make another swordwind, as is I’ll likely start eldar again based in plastics, maybe wraiths to take advantage of start collecting boxes.

Hawks apparently changed once. Warp Spiders haven't changed since 2nd edition (and neither have the phoenix lords).

The aspects that most sorely need an update are the Shining Spears imo. While an all plastic range would be certainly nice, at least the sculpts of the other aspect warriors have aged relatively well. But the Shining Spears are not only the most expensive per model (bar Crimson Hunters, of course), with the older style jetbikes they look out of place next to the newer Windriders.

I'd love an updated 3 model Shining Spear kit that has options to make an Exarch or an Autarch Skyrunner, even if it came as an upgrade sprue to the Windrider box.

For fire dragons and dark reapers, they may not need a full kit. Fire dragons just need some fusion guns, a flamer, firepike and a exarch head. For reapers, they need weapons and heads,maybe loin'plates' and shoulder pad.
Banshee/hawk kit is a good idea. Just use the guardian back and attech different bits. And,just add 5 female and 5 male front torso bits. As for weapons, just think about the guardian defenders and storm guardians.
Scorpion/Spider kit can be done. It is because their torso are look alike.However, they may need someway to attech the respective rune on the exarch torso. A backpack connected to shoulder pads is needed for such kit.
Shining spear can easily done with a coversion kit for windriders. That includes 3 laser lances, a sword and torso bits.

But why there is not anyone requesting plastic warlocks?

I hate multi unit kits you end up with so much unusable junk and it costs you twice as much as a dedicated kit to make a full unit.

It shouldn't cost £50 to make a 10 man immortal troop unit, marines get 10 for £25.

hobojebus wrote:
I hate multi unit kits you end up with so much unusable junk and it costs you twice as much as a dedicated kit to make a full unit.

It shouldn't cost £50 to make a 10 man immortal troop unit, marines get 10 for £25.

Well not twice but extra price does get added. Nice for those who love to kitbash though.

Tacticals 25£ for 10, vanguards 50£ for 10. Immortals got hit by elite tax. Troop that's more elites than basic grunts tend to get hefty price hike.