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Vorian wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Sleipnir wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Technically, every game that isn't simultaneous, is IGOUGO, so yes, people saying that alternating activations is the same as the classic gameplay experience people refers as IGOUGO is just being disingenuous.

I see what you are saying, but honestly, I think the standards in rules development is just making that less and less true. Sure there are turn structures and active/reactive player timing sequences, but rules writers have figured out a lot of ways to keep both players in the decision making process at this point. There are a lot of games where two models on both sides can fall over dead at effectively the same time, and both players were making decisions about the outcome.

To be brutally honest, listening to the vast majority of GW players talk about table top game mechanics is like listening to Everquest or Vanilla World of Warcraft players trying to use their frame of reference to talk about current day MMO mechanics. Its like they know what an MMO is, while also knowing less about modern day MMO than a person who has never heard the term MMO due to preconceptions.

GW is unrepentantly stuck in the past on the rules mechanics front. There are a lot of mega grind fest MMOs with flashy graphics that get published. Consumers of those products are not wrong. They are just exceptionally wrong if they think those products are especially representative of current thinking on MMOs.

Oh, I agree. Mechanics change, and what was good 10-15-20 years ago isn't good anymore. Many things improve, others just change. But this isn't a full new game. This is Necromunda. Is a purely nostalgia driven release. They have give it a nice face cleanup but in the end it remains the same game.
Will it be an impediment to his grow and popularization? We have the example of Bloodbowl. The nostalgia push was MASSIVE when it released, but as you said, the 20-years old rules ended up drowning it, like an anchor to the neck.

So yes, I believe Necromunda isn't gonna have the sucess it has 20 years ago. But, you know what? It doesn't need to have it. Shadowpire is this new, ultra competitive, fast game with slow preparation time and tight ruleset, made to appeal to the new trends of the market.
GW is trying to make products to all kinds of players. Nostalgic veterans, new players, even board-gamers and ... COMPETITIVE players! You know, the kind of players GW even refused to acknowledge that they existed

Blood bowl that they have sold us has been a success beyond their most optimistic projections? That game still getting regular releases?

Wish I could sink like a stone in such a fashion.

A lot of pretentious nonsense on games design in this thread.

'I dont see people play BB at my flgs, therefore it failed and sucks!'

Nevermind it being fairly popular in my area, with multiple leagues on going.

xerxeshavelock wrote:
I notice that the gang roster doesn't have stats for each fighter. I wonder if that means development will be purely skill and equipment based?

Mordheim I thought was rather clever in the way it limited the amount of conversions you had to do by saying only characters could change equipment. I can see a similar practice here.

No. Each fighter will have their stats, skills, injuries and equipment listed on a card:


The roster sheet just holds the additional information needed for campaign play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 notprop wrote:
I'm thinking more fixedcharacter cards and tactics cards would push the game in a more limited a pay to play direction.

The roster GW have listed up is purely for listing costs not character information as well. It indicates fixed characters to me.

They state right there in the video that the game box comes with two "premade" gangs, essentially they provide completed roster cards for the models if you assemble them as-per the instruction booklet.

Something that the original Necromunda did in 1995, too (and the Necromunda Underhive book from Specialist Games, a decade later, despite that no longer coming with the minis in the box ).

 Yodhrin wrote:

 notprop wrote:
I'm thinking more fixedcharacter cards and tactics cards would push the game in a more limited a pay to play direction.
The roster GW have listed up is purely for listing costs not character information as well. It indicates fixed characters to me.

They state right there in the video that the game box comes with two "premade" gangs, essentially they provide completed roster cards for the models if you assemble them as-per the instruction booklet. There are also blank roster cards and you can still create an entirely custom warband.
Just like the card play surface, the "premade" gangs are there for new people who're buying a complete boxed game, they no more mean the system is moving to Shadespire-style fixed characters than the card play surface means they're turning it into a boardgame.

I agree with you, BUT there's very much a chance that they'll continue to provide "premade" gangs in the Gang Expansions for the... we'll call them the "board game" or "gateway" crowd that the new boxed starter is also clearly aimed at.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 notprop wrote:
I'm thinking more fixedcharacter cards and tactics cards would push the game in a more limited a pay to play direction.
The roster GW have listed up is purely for listing costs not character information as well. It indicates fixed characters to me.

They state right there in the video that the game box comes with two "premade" gangs, essentially they provide completed roster cards for the models if you assemble them as-per the instruction booklet. There are also blank roster cards and you can still create an entirely custom warband.
Just like the card play surface, the "premade" gangs are there for new people who're buying a complete boxed game, they no more mean the system is moving to Shadespire-style fixed characters than the card play surface means they're turning it into a boardgame.

I agree with you, BUT there's very much a chance that they'll continue to provide "premade" gangs in the Gang Expansions for the... we'll call them the "board game" or "gateway" crowd that the new boxed starter is also clearly aimed at.

And? I'm genuinely not getting why that's contentious, making it easier for players to get into the game is always a good thing so long as it doesn't result in the more advanced options being removed, which this evidently isn't.

 Crazyterran wrote:

Vorian wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Sleipnir wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Technically, every game that isn't simultaneous, is IGOUGO, so yes, people saying that alternating activations is the same as the classic gameplay experience people refers as IGOUGO is just being disingenuous.

I see what you are saying, but honestly, I think the standards in rules development is just making that less and less true. Sure there are turn structures and active/reactive player timing sequences, but rules writers have figured out a lot of ways to keep both players in the decision making process at this point. There are a lot of games where two models on both sides can fall over dead at effectively the same time, and both players were making decisions about the outcome.

To be brutally honest, listening to the vast majority of GW players talk about table top game mechanics is like listening to Everquest or Vanilla World of Warcraft players trying to use their frame of reference to talk about current day MMO mechanics. Its like they know what an MMO is, while also knowing less about modern day MMO than a person who has never heard the term MMO due to preconceptions.

GW is unrepentantly stuck in the past on the rules mechanics front. There are a lot of mega grind fest MMOs with flashy graphics that get published. Consumers of those products are not wrong. They are just exceptionally wrong if they think those products are especially representative of current thinking on MMOs.

Oh, I agree. Mechanics change, and what was good 10-15-20 years ago isn't good anymore. Many things improve, others just change. But this isn't a full new game. This is Necromunda. Is a purely nostalgia driven release. They have give it a nice face cleanup but in the end it remains the same game.
Will it be an impediment to his grow and popularization? We have the example of Bloodbowl. The nostalgia push was MASSIVE when it released, but as you said, the 20-years old rules ended up drowning it, like an anchor to the neck.

So yes, I believe Necromunda isn't gonna have the sucess it has 20 years ago. But, you know what? It doesn't need to have it. Shadowpire is this new, ultra competitive, fast game with slow preparation time and tight ruleset, made to appeal to the new trends of the market.
GW is trying to make products to all kinds of players. Nostalgic veterans, new players, even board-gamers and ... COMPETITIVE players! You know, the kind of players GW even refused to acknowledge that they existed

Blood bowl that they have sold us has been a success beyond their most optimistic projections? That game still getting regular releases?

Wish I could sink like a stone in such a fashion.

A lot of pretentious nonsense on games design in this thread.

'I dont see people play BB at my flgs, therefore it failed and sucks!'

Nevermind it being fairly popular in my area, with multiple leagues on going.

This is also true for my local GW. The local sentiment is like this: If the game doesn´t include a Space Marine it is simply not worth playing. I introduced the game to three people and two of them bought the box afterwards. The third couldn´t comprehend the Block & Assist mechanic even after the tenth explanation. It was no surprise to me that he didn´t invested money in the best game ever
published by GW. What a shame. Apart from these intro games BB is dead in this shop.

Personally I really like BloodBowl mechanics, but my experience has been the same as Strg Al. Everyone thinks the mechanics are to random, slow and cumberstome.

Everyone prefers Dreadball as a Rugby tabletop game.

Maybe I have said a stupid thing, and in UK and USA BloodBowl is all popular with leagues in all the country. But I'll keep my opinion on the rest of my post.

Dreadball? Rugby?



Blood Bowl is an excellent set of rules for fantasy American Football (OK, there's some things you can't do - like fake out the opposition as to who has the ball, but still). Dreadball is more like sci-fi basketball. And then there's Guildball, but I don't get the appeal of that, so I'm not sure what sport it's supposed to be.

Sorry, I have literally 0 idea about sports, to me all look the same

No White Dwarf leaks on the price point for this thing yet?

I think subscribers get their copy tomorrow?

Earlier on there was discussion of igugo and alternate activation. Reading the goliath hints and tips section of the necromunda website it does mention group activation so it may well not be quite as simple.as one player activation just one model then the other.

Seventyone wrote:
Earlier on there was did as soon of igugo and alternate activation. Reading the goliath hints and tips section of the necromunda website it does mention group activation so it may well not be quite as simple.as one player activation just one model then the other.

I would imagine leader skills / tactics cards come in to play there

Price wise, it's going to be £90 range area given you've got 24 miniatures, plastic cover and bulkheads and a 6x6 tiled area. Guessing £15 the extra book, £25 the gangs.

I've not had my sub copy of WD yet.

This is looking good so far, but funds are probably going to be too tight right now :(

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
Price wise, it's going to be £90 range area given you've got 24 miniatures, plastic cover and bulkheads and a 6x6 tiled area. Guessing £15 the extra book, £25 the gangs.

I've not had my sub copy of WD yet.

Its not a 6x6 board. Its 3x3. Price wise £65 to £80. Anymore and well......

On the necro facebook pages prices have been discussed.

It hasa few extra bits over blood bowl but not many so cant see it being too pricey

It's going to have about the same contents as BB so I'm gonna suggest it's the same price +/- £5.

Ditto Deathbowl/Gang War books.

 Azazelx wrote:
...BUT there's very much a chance that they'll continue to provide "premade" gangs in the Gang Expansions for the... we'll call them the "board game" or "gateway" crowd that the new boxed starter is also clearly aimed at.

Normally, that would be called "sample" gangs. A quick workup designed for one-off mindless games that a veteran player looks at and immediately discards in favor of generating a new gang from scratch.

I really fail to see how the existence of premade gangs is a problem. As long as there is an option to create your own, it's fine.

The answer seems pretty obvious, but I'll give it a try anyway

Is there any chance minis from Necromunda will be usable in regular 40k ? There's no gang faction I guess

I presume at least scenery elements could be reused for both

Those Goliath will be lovely Khorne Cultists.

xavier5 wrote:
The answer seems pretty obvious, but I'll give it a try anyway

Is there any chance minis from Necromunda will be usable in regular 40k ? There's no gang faction I guess

I presume at least scenery elements could be reused for both

you could probably use them fairly easily as chaos/genestealer cultists?...aside from that though, not really...

Depending on the rest of the gangs, and price, maybe conscripts?

Gangers could with some conversion become good alternate Imperial Guard veterans.

 Groundh0g wrote:

 jake wrote:

 Groundh0g wrote:
Not a big fan of the "DLC" model making it's way to tabletop.

Well, you're about 40 years to late then. Tabletop gaming has been operating on a "DLC model" since the 80's.

Um, no. Expansions, sure. But leaving out (existing) core content to release as expansions is not something that has been around for 40 years, unless my memory fails me. It was the same with Blood Bowl.

Tabletop gaming has been using what you would call a DLC model (release a base product, then release add-on products to enhance and expand the base product) since the days of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons.

For example:

Buy the AD&D Players Guide, GM Guide and Monster manual, then later get the Rangers Handbook DLC, the Tomb of Horror's DLC and the Book of Artifacts DLC.

Buy Warhammer 40K 2nd edition, then later get the Dark Millennium DLC, the Codex: Space Wolves DLC and the Marneus Calgar DLC

Buy the X-Wing core set, then later get the Millennium Falcon DLC, the Tie Advanced DLC and the Rebel Aces DLC

Buy Necromunda, then later buy the Outlanders DLC, the Eschers DLC and the Weapon sprues DLC.


It's the same model. In tabletop games we call them expansions, or just new product releases. Thats how it used to be in computer/video games too, until downloading new content and digital sales became the norm.

Your idea that DLC is "leaving out (existing) core content to release as expansions" is ridiculous. While there are surely instances of that happening in video games/computer games, that not what DLC is and thats not what the term means. That kind of practice is much rarer than people seem to think and is not how games are actually made.

 jake wrote:
Buy Warhammer 40K 2nd edition, then later get the Dark Millennium DLC, the Codex: Space Wolves DLC and the Marneus Calgar DLC

That's not what's meant by DLC. At all.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 jake wrote:
Buy Warhammer 40K 2nd edition, then later get the Dark Millennium DLC, the Codex: Space Wolves DLC and the Marneus Calgar DLC

That's not what's meant by DLC. At all.

Thats exactly what DLC is. Can you explain what YOU think DLC is?

Edit: Sorry, that sounded patronizing, which wasn't my intent. I think we may all be having a misunderstanding about what DLC is and how people are using the term here. Would you mind clarifying what you think DLC is and why what I described doesn't fit your understanding?

Those are DLC if you buy them as ebooks in your device

 Galas wrote:
Those are DLC if you buy them as ebooks in your device

Yes, I know they aren't literal downloadable content. The original comment was someone saying that they hoped gaming didn't adopt the DLC model. My response was that gaming has been using that model for almost 40 years. There was some argument, so I decided to clarify what I meant with some examples. My point was that many tabletop gaming companies have long used the practice of selling a core product, and then selling optional addons that provide more options, extend the life of the product or expand play-ability (D&D, Pathfinger, Warhammer, Necromunda, Netrunner, etc, etc, etc). We usually call these expansions or just product lines. In video games they're called DLC (although videogames also had a long history of "expansions before digital delivery made the DLC title common).

 jake wrote:
Thats exactly what DLC is. Can you explain what YOU think DLC is?

Expansions =/= DLC.

 jake wrote:
Your idea that DLC is "leaving out (existing) core content to release as expansions" is ridiculous. While there are surely instances of that happening in video games/computer games, that not what DLC is and thats not what the term means. That kind of practice is much rarer than people seem to think and is not how games are actually made.

Of course it's what the term means. There's so much bs cut content/Day-1 DLC/On Disc DLC/retailer exclusive DLC/pre-order exclusive DLC these days its sickening. Now they're taking further DLC and putting them into random gambling boxes that cost real-worked money. The AAA publishing work is about as corrupted by this as you can get.

Tabletop games are -nothing- like that. People are calling this Hive War book DLC because it seems like a tiny few bits of rules that could have been included in the main book. It doesn't seem substantial enough to be a whole expansion in and of itself.

Must say that i think it would have been preferable to release the game when at least 2 other gangs would be available. I fear that this might kill a bit of the enthusiasm and will make it harder to attain a critical mass of gamers. Playing campaign with only Eschers and goliaths will get boring fast