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I think I'll just use it for narrative games with no associated cost.

For those thinking about ways to clear screens (if you really need to) and do damage reliably across the board, I created a list to do it all.

Autarch Skyrunner
Farseer Skyrunner
Warlock Skyrunner
3 x 5 Rangers
3 x 9 Windriders with Shuriken
4 Wave Serpents with triple Shuriken Cannon and SStones
1 x 5 Wraithblades with swords.

Wave Serpents will be a fantastic screen turn 1, with 1 also containing the melee counter threat in the Wraithblades (could go Banshees but… Strength 3… … … :( )
Bikes alongside the Wave Serpents will put out 117 Shuriken Cannon shots turn 1, all re-rolling 1’s to hit, 1 set maybe with guide and then doom on top of everything – oh and a jinx for added bonus.

Then, to cap it all off, every unit has a -1 to hit, 2+ save turn 1 if you go second – with the Rangers being even harder to hit, and, you have the option to stack another -1 to hit on 1 unit of your choice.

Now – the only thing stopping me from building this and running it, is my gut feeling that Wave Serpents with 100% get a points increase in CA2018. I guess, all it would mean is I’d have to drop the Wraithblades for something else, but, I like to have answers to things. For example, the Ynnari Spears charging in turn 1, or 1 blob of Orks Da Jumping up.

Now, you do run the risk of getting alpha struck (like all armies), but you should be able to hide most of your bikes out of LoS and use their 22” moves to re-position on your own turn.

Not completely sold on the Windriders(they are easily killed with a meta that has high strength, high-ap, 2 damage weapons), but Wave Serpents have been a solid unit for me since 8th started.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Not completely sold on the Windriders(they are easily killed with a meta that has high strength, high-ap, 2 damage weapons), but Wave Serpents have been a solid unit for me since 8th started.

While I agree they can be fragile vs 2 damage weapons, I’d also argue that most of the 2 damage weapons taken in large quantities will still be giving you a 4+ save turn 1 – if you have no choice but to deploy in LoS.
For example, a Knight with a Gatling Cannon, hitting on 4s will kill 2 models. A dissie cannon Ravager will kill 2 models. Plasma won’t be overcharging due to the -1, maybe -2 to hit (and will likely be aimed at the Wave Serpents anyway).

10-man Reaper squads, will, of course still half kill a unit.

But, beyond that, what else is there that is taken in big enough numbers? The biggest issue, will continue to be weight of dice focusing down 1 unit at a time. But, hopefully, by that time, you’ve done enough damage yourself that it becomes a race to the end on who can do the most damage the fastest.

If you go first though, you also have the advantage of weight of dice, from a massive 24” range that also allows you to maintain your -1 to hit effectiveness. On top of that, you’d also be expecting a high number of forced saves and a good chunk of them at -3 AP.

I’d also argue that, if you focus solely on removing the 3 squads of Windriders over the first 1-3 turns, your opponent likely won’t be in a good position to subsequently take out the 4 Wave Serpents.

 Galef wrote:
The "emergency exit" strat still doesn't override the "no units may arrive turn 1" reserve restriction,
So if the WWG dies in the first turn, everything "in it" dies too, regardless of having access to the strat
There really is no grey in this.

-

Hopefully GW realizes this and fixes those strategems that were created before this rule(and thus obviously aren't designed with it in mind)

Kdash wrote:
For those thinking about ways to clear screens (if you really need to) and do damage reliably across the board, I created a list to do it all.

Autarch Skyrunner
Farseer Skyrunner
Warlock Skyrunner
3 x 5 Rangers
3 x 9 Windriders with Shuriken
4 Wave Serpents with triple Shuriken Cannon and SStones
1 x 5 Wraithblades with swords.

Wave Serpents will be a fantastic screen turn 1, with 1 also containing the melee counter threat in the Wraithblades (could go Banshees but… Strength 3… … … :( )
Bikes alongside the Wave Serpents will put out 117 Shuriken Cannon shots turn 1, all re-rolling 1’s to hit, 1 set maybe with guide and then doom on top of everything – oh and a jinx for added bonus.

Then, to cap it all off, every unit has a -1 to hit, 2+ save turn 1 if you go second – with the Rangers being even harder to hit, and, you have the option to stack another -1 to hit on 1 unit of your choice.

Now – the only thing stopping me from building this and running it, is my gut feeling that Wave Serpents with 100% get a points increase in CA2018. I guess, all it would mean is I’d have to drop the Wraithblades for something else, but, I like to have answers to things. For example, the Ynnari Spears charging in turn 1, or 1 blob of Orks Da Jumping up.

Now, you do run the risk of getting alpha struck (like all armies), but you should be able to hide most of your bikes out of LoS and use their 22” moves to re-position on your own turn.

A rough calculation puts that list at over 1750 points. Whether you are playing 1750 or 2k, and thus having additional points to spend, you do not have anything to deal with Knights, Tanks, and other units of the T8 variety. One unit of nine jetbikes will do an average of 3 damage to a Knight (without buffs) per turn. Add in some doom and you're looking at 4.333 damage per squad. That's not good.

As an aside, I am assembling 3 War Walkers, but I am not sure on the optimal loadout. I am thinking 2x Brightlances for Two of them and Either 2x Star Cannons or 2x Scat Lasers for the last one. The idea behind Cannons is the versatility to shoot at TEQ type models, and the idea behind the Scatter Lasers is to keep one cheaper so if the unit gets Alpha Struck, I don't lose as much. Thoughts?

With Doom on the table your optimal loadout is Starcannons across all three. Wounding semi-reliably on 5s against heavies with good AP -3 and decent volume of fire means they can supplement AT while still being absolutely terrifying MEQ/TEQ killers at excellent range.

Pointswise equivalent to your BL/SC/SL trio, but you don't lose efficacy against a particular unit type if one goes down. Comes out a smidge behind without Doom on T7s, but is effectively identical on T8s.

Alternative option is going 1x BL + 1x SC across all three. Pretty decent swiss army unit that can do work in the AT and heavy infantry realms for 85 points apiece.

 mokoshkana wrote:

Kdash wrote:
For those thinking about ways to clear screens (if you really need to) and do damage reliably across the board, I created a list to do it all.

Autarch Skyrunner
Farseer Skyrunner
Warlock Skyrunner
3 x 5 Rangers
3 x 9 Windriders with Shuriken
4 Wave Serpents with triple Shuriken Cannon and SStones
1 x 5 Wraithblades with swords.

Wave Serpents will be a fantastic screen turn 1, with 1 also containing the melee counter threat in the Wraithblades (could go Banshees but… Strength 3… … … :( )
Bikes alongside the Wave Serpents will put out 117 Shuriken Cannon shots turn 1, all re-rolling 1’s to hit, 1 set maybe with guide and then doom on top of everything – oh and a jinx for added bonus.

Then, to cap it all off, every unit has a -1 to hit, 2+ save turn 1 if you go second – with the Rangers being even harder to hit, and, you have the option to stack another -1 to hit on 1 unit of your choice.

Now – the only thing stopping me from building this and running it, is my gut feeling that Wave Serpents with 100% get a points increase in CA2018. I guess, all it would mean is I’d have to drop the Wraithblades for something else, but, I like to have answers to things. For example, the Ynnari Spears charging in turn 1, or 1 blob of Orks Da Jumping up.

Now, you do run the risk of getting alpha struck (like all armies), but you should be able to hide most of your bikes out of LoS and use their 22” moves to re-position on your own turn.

A rough calculation puts that list at over 1750 points. Whether you are playing 1750 or 2k, and thus having additional points to spend, you do not have anything to deal with Knights, Tanks, and other units of the T8 variety. One unit of nine jetbikes will do an average of 3 damage to a Knight (without buffs) per turn. Add in some doom and you're looking at 4.333 damage per squad. That's not good.

As an aside, I am assembling 3 War Walkers, but I am not sure on the optimal loadout. I am thinking 2x Brightlances for Two of them and Either 2x Star Cannons or 2x Scat Lasers for the last one. The idea behind Cannons is the versatility to shoot at TEQ type models, and the idea behind the Scatter Lasers is to keep one cheaper so if the unit gets Alpha Struck, I don't lose as much. Thoughts?

I've got it at 2000 exactly with just the lance on the Autarch?

As for dealing with Knights etc, you'd be surprised. Fighting vs a 4+/4++ Knight (thanks to Jinx) i'd expect to do 25 wounds to it due to Doom. Sure, i'm not going to 1 shot a Castellan "on average", but it shows, that if i can protect the bikes in an alpha strike situation, i can easily put out the damage to cripple or even destroy a Knight. If i'm fighting a pure Knight army, i'd expect to maybe lose 1 squad of bikes in retaliation if they focus fire or rush a unit with a Gallant. If they are playing a Guard brigade, then, destroying the Castellan means turns 2-6 is me taking minimal losses from lasgun fire while i pick off whatever i want.

The Wave Serpents are the bait, and will be the main focus for a lot of people - they know more about them and know about what they can do when compared to Windriders. I could spend the 175 from the Wraithblades on some Shining Spears, or i could go for a couple of Vypers - or even a Crimson Hunter Exarch, but, imo, lacking a melee option is not always the best idea.

Kdash wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Kdash wrote:

Spoiler:

For those thinking about ways to clear screens (if you really need to) and do damage reliably across the board, I created a list to do it all.

Autarch Skyrunner
Farseer Skyrunner
Warlock Skyrunner
3 x 5 Rangers
3 x 9 Windriders with Shuriken
4 Wave Serpents with triple Shuriken Cannon and SStones
1 x 5 Wraithblades with swords.

Wave Serpents will be a fantastic screen turn 1, with 1 also containing the melee counter threat in the Wraithblades (could go Banshees but… Strength 3… … … :( )
Bikes alongside the Wave Serpents will put out 117 Shuriken Cannon shots turn 1, all re-rolling 1’s to hit, 1 set maybe with guide and then doom on top of everything – oh and a jinx for added bonus.

Then, to cap it all off, every unit has a -1 to hit, 2+ save turn 1 if you go second – with the Rangers being even harder to hit, and, you have the option to stack another -1 to hit on 1 unit of your choice.

Now – the only thing stopping me from building this and running it, is my gut feeling that Wave Serpents with 100% get a points increase in CA2018. I guess, all it would mean is I’d have to drop the Wraithblades for something else, but, I like to have answers to things. For example, the Ynnari Spears charging in turn 1, or 1 blob of Orks Da Jumping up.

Now, you do run the risk of getting alpha struck (like all armies), but you should be able to hide most of your bikes out of LoS and use their 22” moves to re-position on your own turn.

A rough calculation puts that list at over 1750 points. Whether you are playing 1750 or 2k, and thus having additional points to spend, you do not have anything to deal with Knights, Tanks, and other units of the T8 variety. One unit of nine jetbikes will do an average of 3 damage to a Knight (without buffs) per turn. Add in some doom and you're looking at 4.333 damage per squad. That's not good.

As an aside, I am assembling 3 War Walkers, but I am not sure on the optimal loadout. I am thinking 2x Brightlances for Two of them and Either 2x Star Cannons or 2x Scat Lasers for the last one. The idea behind Cannons is the versatility to shoot at TEQ type models, and the idea behind the Scatter Lasers is to keep one cheaper so if the unit gets Alpha Struck, I don't lose as much. Thoughts?

I've got it at 2000 exactly with just the lance on the Autarch?

As for dealing with Knights etc, you'd be surprised. Fighting vs a 4+/4++ Knight (thanks to Jinx) i'd expect to do 25 wounds to it due to Doom. Sure, i'm not going to 1 shot a Castellan "on average", but it shows, that if i can protect the bikes in an alpha strike situation, i can easily put out the damage to cripple or even destroy a Knight. If i'm fighting a pure Knight army, i'd expect to maybe lose 1 squad of bikes in retaliation if they focus fire or rush a unit with a Gallant. If they are playing a Guard brigade, then, destroying the Castellan means turns 2-6 is me taking minimal losses from lasgun fire while i pick off whatever i want.

The Wave Serpents are the bait, and will be the main focus for a lot of people - they know more about them and know about what they can do when compared to Windriders. I could spend the 175 from the Wraithblades on some Shining Spears, or i could go for a couple of Vypers - or even a Crimson Hunter Exarch, but, imo, lacking a melee option is not always the best idea.

I just realized I only added up 3 Serpents instead of 4.

And the average is here:https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/
Here is the average vs a Knight Equivalent which has been Doomed, but has not been buffed in any way:
3x Shuriken Cannon Bike Squad (of 9 bikes): Total Shots-81 / Total Hits-54 / Wounds Caused-30 / Unsaved Wounds - 13
4x Triple Shuriken Cannon Wave Serpent: Total Shots-36 / Total Hits-24 / Wounds Caused-13.333 / Unsaved Wounds - 5.778
15x Rangers: Total Shots-15 / Total Hits-10 / Wounds Caused-2.583 / Unsaved Wounds - 0.861 (Includes 2 Mortal Wounds)

Guide or the Autarch aura will bump those numbers, but not enough for me to think that's a viable strategy. Even if all of that is enough to kill one knight a turn, that means you need to spend 1,512 points of shooting to down a Knight. Obviously smite, the serpent shields, execution, etc can reduce the number of squads you need to fire, but it is still rough. Bike's are LD7, which means if your opponent only needs to kill 6 bikes per squad to make them run from morale (taking the averages).

As for Jinx, its Warp Charge 7, which means it will only go off 50% of the time. Sure you can command point to increases your odds, but I don't like to bank on jinx.

Are empty wave serpents with triple shuriken cannons really that exciting a target though? If I was fighting this list I'd focus on the one carrying the Wraithblades and then start taking down everything else except the other three serpents.
Maybe swap out the other three serpents for twin shuriken cannon, glaive wraithlords? Not as tough obviously but only a bit less firepower and very useable in melee, even against Knights with four strength 9 attacks each.

 mokoshkana wrote:

Kdash wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Kdash wrote:

Spoiler:

For those thinking about ways to clear screens (if you really need to) and do damage reliably across the board, I created a list to do it all.

Autarch Skyrunner
Farseer Skyrunner
Warlock Skyrunner
3 x 5 Rangers
3 x 9 Windriders with Shuriken
4 Wave Serpents with triple Shuriken Cannon and SStones
1 x 5 Wraithblades with swords.

Wave Serpents will be a fantastic screen turn 1, with 1 also containing the melee counter threat in the Wraithblades (could go Banshees but… Strength 3… … … :( )
Bikes alongside the Wave Serpents will put out 117 Shuriken Cannon shots turn 1, all re-rolling 1’s to hit, 1 set maybe with guide and then doom on top of everything – oh and a jinx for added bonus.

Then, to cap it all off, every unit has a -1 to hit, 2+ save turn 1 if you go second – with the Rangers being even harder to hit, and, you have the option to stack another -1 to hit on 1 unit of your choice.

Now – the only thing stopping me from building this and running it, is my gut feeling that Wave Serpents with 100% get a points increase in CA2018. I guess, all it would mean is I’d have to drop the Wraithblades for something else, but, I like to have answers to things. For example, the Ynnari Spears charging in turn 1, or 1 blob of Orks Da Jumping up.

Now, you do run the risk of getting alpha struck (like all armies), but you should be able to hide most of your bikes out of LoS and use their 22” moves to re-position on your own turn.

A rough calculation puts that list at over 1750 points. Whether you are playing 1750 or 2k, and thus having additional points to spend, you do not have anything to deal with Knights, Tanks, and other units of the T8 variety. One unit of nine jetbikes will do an average of 3 damage to a Knight (without buffs) per turn. Add in some doom and you're looking at 4.333 damage per squad. That's not good.

As an aside, I am assembling 3 War Walkers, but I am not sure on the optimal loadout. I am thinking 2x Brightlances for Two of them and Either 2x Star Cannons or 2x Scat Lasers for the last one. The idea behind Cannons is the versatility to shoot at TEQ type models, and the idea behind the Scatter Lasers is to keep one cheaper so if the unit gets Alpha Struck, I don't lose as much. Thoughts?

I've got it at 2000 exactly with just the lance on the Autarch?

As for dealing with Knights etc, you'd be surprised. Fighting vs a 4+/4++ Knight (thanks to Jinx) i'd expect to do 25 wounds to it due to Doom. Sure, i'm not going to 1 shot a Castellan "on average", but it shows, that if i can protect the bikes in an alpha strike situation, i can easily put out the damage to cripple or even destroy a Knight. If i'm fighting a pure Knight army, i'd expect to maybe lose 1 squad of bikes in retaliation if they focus fire or rush a unit with a Gallant. If they are playing a Guard brigade, then, destroying the Castellan means turns 2-6 is me taking minimal losses from lasgun fire while i pick off whatever i want.

The Wave Serpents are the bait, and will be the main focus for a lot of people - they know more about them and know about what they can do when compared to Windriders. I could spend the 175 from the Wraithblades on some Shining Spears, or i could go for a couple of Vypers - or even a Crimson Hunter Exarch, but, imo, lacking a melee option is not always the best idea.

I just realized I only added up 3 Serpents instead of 4.

And the average is here:https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/
Here is the average vs a Knight Equivalent which has been Doomed, but has not been buffed in any way:
3x Shuriken Cannon Bike Squad (of 9 bikes): Total Shots-81 / Total Hits-54 / Wounds Caused-30 / Unsaved Wounds - 13
4x Triple Shuriken Cannon Wave Serpent: Total Shots-36 / Total Hits-24 / Wounds Caused-13.333 / Unsaved Wounds - 5.778
15x Rangers: Total Shots-15 / Total Hits-10 / Wounds Caused-2.583 / Unsaved Wounds - 0.861 (Includes 2 Mortal Wounds)

Guide or the Autarch aura will bump those numbers, but not enough for me to think that's a viable strategy. Even if all of that is enough to kill one knight a turn, that means you need to spend 1,512 points of shooting to down a Knight. Obviously smite, the serpent shields, execution, etc can reduce the number of squads you need to fire, but it is still rough. Bike's are LD7, which means if your opponent only needs to kill 6 bikes per squad to make them run from morale (taking the averages).

I'm getting 19.38 wounds from the bikes + wave serpents on a doomed Knight (using the Autarch's re-roll 1's. So yes, i agree, that it potentially isn't doing enough, depending on the game. However, add in jinx to make it a 4+/4++ (have to expect RIO at this point) and you get to 25.278 wounds, which is a dead Knight.

As for Ld, i'd get around that as a by-product of running Alaitoc. In this style of list i can easily run the "ignores morale" Alaitoc WL trait, as it's not like i'll need the extra ap on 6's or the ability to snipe characters etc.

In regards to Jinx, i'd be looking to cast it on a 6, with a CP spare to re-roll if needed. Potentially costs me 2 CP to do, but, if it means a dead knight turn 1, then it's a price i'm more than willing to pay.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

kingheff wrote:
Are empty wave serpents with triple shuriken cannons really that exciting a target though? If I was fighting this list I'd focus on the one carrying the Wraithblades and then start taking down everything else except the other three serpents.
Maybe swap out the other three serpents for twin shuriken cannon, glaive wraithlords? Not as tough obviously but only a bit less firepower and very useable in melee, even against Knights with four strength 9 attacks each.

They are generally more of a perceived threat than the bikes are. Also, if you pop the first Wave Serpent from shooting, i can easily jump the Wraithblades into another Serpent - depending on how much shooting you have left.

I didn't consider Wraithlords before, i'll look at it, but, my issue with them would be mobility. With only an 8" move, they aren't keeping up with the rest of the main force, and i believe they kinda need Starcannons over Shuriken Cannons, in order to be effective, but, that then suffers due to moving, or forces you to likely stay still.

It's a potential option in regards to swapping out the Wraithblades with a couple of other changes - as my list can't really do much with the 40 odd points saved from the switch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A 3rd option is running 2 Vypers, and using the spare 35 points on a Reaper Launcher for the Autarch and 2 Singing Spears for the psykers, but, if i do go full shooting, then i can't help but think it'd be better to do a straight swap for a CHE.

Kdash wrote:
In regards to Jinx, i'd be looking to cast it on a 6, with a CP spare to re-roll if needed. Potentially costs me 2 CP to do, but, if it means a dead knight turn 1, then it's a price i'm more than willing to pay.

How are you casting Jinx on a 6? It is WC 7.

Another option, is to drop the Wraithblades and run Illic, a 2nd Warlock skyrunner for redundancy, give all 3 psykers Singing Spears, and swap the Autarchs lance for a fusion gun and scorpion chainsword.

Options, options...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Kdash wrote:
In regards to Jinx, i'd be looking to cast it on a 6, with a CP spare to re-roll if needed. Potentially costs me 2 CP to do, but, if it means a dead knight turn 1, then it's a price i'm more than willing to pay.

How are you casting Jinx on a 6? It is WC 7.

The Farseer and Warlock will always be within 6" of each other, so they can use the Seer Council strat for 1CP, to give them both +1 to cast on all power for that phase.

Kdash wrote:
Another option, is to drop the Wraithblades and run Illic, a 2nd Warlock skyrunner for redundancy, give all 3 psykers Singing Spears, and swap the Autarchs lance for a fusion gun and scorpion chainsword.

Options, options...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Kdash wrote:
In regards to Jinx, i'd be looking to cast it on a 6, with a CP spare to re-roll if needed. Potentially costs me 2 CP to do, but, if it means a dead knight turn 1, then it's a price i'm more than willing to pay.

How are you casting Jinx on a 6? It is WC 7.

The Farseer and Warlock will always be within 6" of each other, so they can use the Seer Council strat for 1CP, to give them both +1 to cast on all power for that phase.

I'm still not buying what you're selling. If either of your two Psychic powers misfire or get denied, then your strategy is sunk. Even if everything goes according to plan, it is going to take just about your entire force to kill that one knight, which can use stratagems to potentially stand back up and fire at full BS the next turn. If you go second, you're likely going to lose enough of your force to make killing that knight improbable, or the deployment is of a certain type (i.e. Hammer and Anvil) it is going to be tough to get all of those guns/abilities into range.

 mokoshkana wrote:

Kdash wrote:
Another option, is to drop the Wraithblades and run Illic, a 2nd Warlock skyrunner for redundancy, give all 3 psykers Singing Spears, and swap the Autarchs lance for a fusion gun and scorpion chainsword.

Options, options...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Kdash wrote:
In regards to Jinx, i'd be looking to cast it on a 6, with a CP spare to re-roll if needed. Potentially costs me 2 CP to do, but, if it means a dead knight turn 1, then it's a price i'm more than willing to pay.

How are you casting Jinx on a 6? It is WC 7.

The Farseer and Warlock will always be within 6" of each other, so they can use the Seer Council strat for 1CP, to give them both +1 to cast on all power for that phase.

I'm still not buying what you're selling. If either of your two Psychic powers misfire or get denied, then your strategy is sunk. Even if everything goes according to plan, it is going to take just about your entire force to kill that one knight, which can use stratagems to potentially stand back up and fire at full BS the next turn. If you go second, you're likely going to lose enough of your force to make killing that knight improbable, or the deployment is of a certain type (i.e. Hammer and Anvil) it is going to be tough to get all of those guns/abilities into range.

Genuine question - as it was by trying to answer the question i came across this idea -
What is the best way for each faction to kill a 3+/3++ Knight, without using your own Castellan, post big FAQ 2?

Also take into account that the Knight will be screened turn 1, if you plan on using melee you need to account for shooting 20 Guardsmen first.

As it stands, this idea needs 1655 points and potentially 2 CP.

From a Craftworlds pov, you could use 28 Dark Reapers, 1 autarch, 1 farseer skyrunner and 1 warlock skyrunner, hoping for the same powers to go off, for a total of 1244 points. But, what is going to die faster? 27 bikes or 28 dark reapers?
You could also run Ynnari (which i'm not keen on) and save yourself the points for 10 Reapers in exchange for Yvaraine and the hope of a 3rd power going off each turn.

Can space marines of any type reliably kill a 3++ knight now, even when using all 2000 points?
I know from experience that Custodes Biker Captains have a hardtime killing a single Knight between 3 of them.
Drukari, i guess is probably your best bet, but, you're now spending 4CP to vect RIO, and you're only going to be doing that twice, max - not to mention that 3 haywire talos cost more than 1 9 man biker squad and will have a harder time getting into shooting range than the bikers will. But, they are significantly more durable, so it'd become a race.
Halequinns with haywire are another solid choice i guess, but they are super expensive and suffer even more from the "don't go first, won't kill the knight" argument.
T'au potentially have options, but, i think they have to dedicate even more points to kill the Knight.
Guard - not sure to be fair, but i imagine it is a similar story to T'au. (a fully kitted out Shadowsword does about 9.3 wounds to a 3++ knight for a 540 point cost)
Thousand Sons can smite spam or super rush Magnus at the Knight, but, smite spam takes time to get through the screens, and if Magnus doesn't go first, Magnus dies.
CSM i'm guessing are similar to Space Marines - especially now Oblits have to wait to turn 2 to start having an impact.
Not sure how the numbers work for Death Guard.
Necrons can spam destroyers, but it doesn't come close to killing a Knight - and again they have more issues with range than the Bikers will have.


Whichever way we look at it, i've come to the conclusion, that to kill a Knight with a 3++ requires either fantastic luck or 75-100% of your shooting + stratagems and/or powers to pull off reliably.

Guide and doom X a scorpion doesn't take one down on average but certainly can. Not being able to cloud strike it in on turn 1 makes it incredibly vulnerable now, plus it's super expensive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just a shame support weapons don't count as infantry, imagine being able to deep strike in two units of three d cannons. 6d3 str 12 shots, -4 ap, d6 damage indirect shots!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All for 450 pts too


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Three units of three war walkers with twin bright lance for 810 pts should easily take down a doomed knight, especially with autarch support.

TS will 18 inch death hex the knight and promptly kill him once his invuln save is gone. Chaos can do it too, but it's trickier without the +6 inch range.

 bullyboy wrote:

abyrn wrote:
I thought the "Harlequin" stats are available automatically because the Webwey is a Harlequin unit, so it unlocks the stratagems since it can only be taken as part of a harlequin fortification detachment. The stratagem itself (The Labyrinth Laughs) states an AELDARI unit not a HARLEQUINS unit.

Or does the fortification detachment not give stratagem access?

The problem with the gate is that if the enemy destroys it on the first turn you cannot use the stratagem since there is no deploying from reserves during the first turn. There is nothing in the Webway gate datasheet or stratagems that allows you to circumvent that rule.

you're absolutely right on the first part, I just never thought of it as a harlequin detachment. That helps a little bit.

The gate is in the Harlequin codex, but doesn't have the Harlequin keyword.
It only has the Aeldari keyword, so if you go pure RAW you can't even field it at all because of the battle brothers rule (even in a detachment by itself it causes an issue), although no sane person would argue that.

fresus wrote:
It only has the Aeldari keyword, so if you go pure RAW you can't even field it at all because of the battle brothers rule (even in a detachment by itself it causes an issue), although no sane person would argue that.

Out of curiosity what issue with own detachment? If it's on detachment of it's own with nothing else battle brother rule doesn't change.

But yeah that thing needs new rules desperately. It's been hit by 2 new rules after it was originally written up to screw it up.

kingheff wrote:
Guide and doom X a scorpion doesn't take one down on average but certainly can. Not being able to cloud strike it in on turn 1 makes it incredibly vulnerable now, plus it's super expensive.


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Just a shame support weapons don't count as infantry, imagine being able to deep strike in two units of three d cannons. 6d3 str 12 shots, -4 ap, d6 damage indirect shots!


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All for 450 pts too


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Three units of three war walkers with twin bright lance for 810 pts should easily take down a doomed knight, especially with autarch support.

So, 3 units of 3 War Walkers, with 2 Bright Lances each (18 lances in total) only does 12.25 damage on average to a 3++ Knight – and that is with Doom AND Autarch re-roll 1’s to hit. It will also cost you a total of 1022 points to do that 12.25 damage and relies on you successfully casting Doom.

With guide and doom, a Scorpion will average 4 unsaved wounds. If we be generous and say 1 of those 4 is a 6, then, it comes out at 15 points of damage for 845 points. But, to get this, it means you aren’t moving the Scorpion and thus, won’t have an invuln for the return fire. Hitting on 3’s reduces the expected damage to 9.679.
It DOES have the potential to 1 shot a Knight though (24 wound Knight) IF it rolls 18+ out of 24 for its number of shots.

D-Cannons could be interesting, if in range, but again, 2 units of 3 would only average 9.679 points of damage, whereas 3 units of 3 would do 14.519. But again, that’s 887 points worth of shooting.

Currently, “anti-tank” sucks at killing tanks with high invuln saves on average.

For example, you could run 94 Guardian Defenders with a Farseer Skyrunner for the same price as the D-cannons. IF you somehow, miraculously, get all of them into range of a Knight in 1 turn, you can expect roughly 14.893 points of damage to be done to it – if you’re running Biel-Tan for the re-roll 1s.
Now, the above will -never ever- happen, but, it does highlight the point. Why spend points on anti-tank, when weight of dice is just as good and likely gives you way better table control?



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tneva82 wrote:

fresus wrote:
It only has the Aeldari keyword, so if you go pure RAW you can't even field it at all because of the battle brothers rule (even in a detachment by itself it causes an issue), although no sane person would argue that.

Out of curiosity what issue with own detachment? If it's on detachment of it's own with nothing else battle brother rule doesn't change.

But yeah that thing needs new rules desperately. It's been hit by 2 new rules after it was originally written up to screw it up.

I agree, the Webway gate isn’t impacted by Battle Brothers, due to it being in its own Fortification Network detachment – and thus not restricted by the Battle Brothers requirement.

As for fixing it – I genuinely feel like the only way to “fix” it, is to make it a terrain piece that cannot be targeted, like the Nurgle Tree. If you can’t blow up a tree with a lascannon, you shouldn’t be able to blow up something that is meant to be all but indestructible with one.

Oh right, the battle brothers rule specifically gives an exception to fortification networks, I missed that.

Kdash wrote:

kingheff wrote:
Guide and doom X a scorpion doesn't take one down on average but certainly can. Not being able to cloud strike it in on turn 1 makes it incredibly vulnerable now, plus it's super expensive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just a shame support weapons don't count as infantry, imagine being able to deep strike in two units of three d cannons. 6d3 str 12 shots, -4 ap, d6 damage indirect shots!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All for 450 pts too


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Three units of three war walkers with twin bright lance for 810 pts should easily take down a doomed knight, especially with autarch support.

So, 3 units of 3 War Walkers, with 2 Bright Lances each (18 lances in total) only does 12.25 damage on average to a 3++ Knight – and that is with Doom AND Autarch re-roll 1’s to hit. It will also cost you a total of 1022 points to do that 12.25 damage and relies on you successfully casting Doom.

With guide and doom, a Scorpion will average 4 unsaved wounds. If we be generous and say 1 of those 4 is a 6, then, it comes out at 15 points of damage for 845 points. But, to get this, it means you aren’t moving the Scorpion and thus, won’t have an invuln for the return fire. Hitting on 3’s reduces the expected damage to 9.679.
It DOES have the potential to 1 shot a Knight though (24 wound Knight) IF it rolls 18+ out of 24 for its number of shots.

D-Cannons could be interesting, if in range, but again, 2 units of 3 would only average 9.679 points of damage, whereas 3 units of 3 would do 14.519. But again, that’s 887 points worth of shooting.

Currently, “anti-tank” sucks at killing tanks with high invuln saves on average.

For example, you could run 94 Guardian Defenders with a Farseer Skyrunner for the same price as the D-cannons. IF you somehow, miraculously, get all of them into range of a Knight in 1 turn, you can expect roughly 14.893 points of damage to be done to it – if you’re running Biel-Tan for the re-roll 1s.
Now, the above will -never ever- happen, but, it does highlight the point. Why spend points on anti-tank, when weight of dice is just as good and likely gives you way better table control?

These anti tank blobs are expensive but if you're fighting 1400ish points of knights with guard support you need to assign big points in return.
A potentially nice thing about the war walkers in particular is the number of units and the range of the guns. If the knight player rotates ion shields you can switch to a secondary knight with the lesser invuln.

kingheff wrote:
A potentially nice thing about the war walkers in particular is the number of units and the range of the guns. If the knight player rotates ion shields you can switch to a secondary knight with the lesser invuln.

Oh yeah always keep this in mind. With multiple knights I find that rotation be lot less effective than one might hope. I don't have one "this must be killed" knight as such(castellan but 3CP is too steep price for my 11-relic/trait CP's) so if I use it right away against first gun opponent simply shoots somewhere else so I MAYBE saved like one or two lascannon(if I rolled 4 for inv save) and then that's it for the 1CP.

I have found myself not using the strategem lately. Generally I find better usage than to stop 1 more out of 6 attempts.

kingheff wrote:

Spoiler:

Kdash wrote:

kingheff wrote:
Guide and doom X a scorpion doesn't take one down on average but certainly can. Not being able to cloud strike it in on turn 1 makes it incredibly vulnerable now, plus it's super expensive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just a shame support weapons don't count as infantry, imagine being able to deep strike in two units of three d cannons. 6d3 str 12 shots, -4 ap, d6 damage indirect shots!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All for 450 pts too


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Three units of three war walkers with twin bright lance for 810 pts should easily take down a doomed knight, especially with autarch support.

So, 3 units of 3 War Walkers, with 2 Bright Lances each (18 lances in total) only does 12.25 damage on average to a 3++ Knight – and that is with Doom AND Autarch re-roll 1’s to hit. It will also cost you a total of 1022 points to do that 12.25 damage and relies on you successfully casting Doom.

With guide and doom, a Scorpion will average 4 unsaved wounds. If we be generous and say 1 of those 4 is a 6, then, it comes out at 15 points of damage for 845 points. But, to get this, it means you aren’t moving the Scorpion and thus, won’t have an invuln for the return fire. Hitting on 3’s reduces the expected damage to 9.679.
It DOES have the potential to 1 shot a Knight though (24 wound Knight) IF it rolls 18+ out of 24 for its number of shots.

D-Cannons could be interesting, if in range, but again, 2 units of 3 would only average 9.679 points of damage, whereas 3 units of 3 would do 14.519. But again, that’s 887 points worth of shooting.

Currently, “anti-tank” sucks at killing tanks with high invuln saves on average.

For example, you could run 94 Guardian Defenders with a Farseer Skyrunner for the same price as the D-cannons. IF you somehow, miraculously, get all of them into range of a Knight in 1 turn, you can expect roughly 14.893 points of damage to be done to it – if you’re running Biel-Tan for the re-roll 1s.
Now, the above will -never ever- happen, but, it does highlight the point. Why spend points on anti-tank, when weight of dice is just as good and likely gives you way better table control?

These anti tank blobs are expensive but if you're fighting 1400ish points of knights with guard support you need to assign big points in return.
A potentially nice thing about the war walkers in particular is the number of units and the range of the guns. If the knight player rotates ion shields you can switch to a secondary knight with the lesser invuln.

While I don’t disagree, but, if you drop 1022 points on 3 units of War Walkers with support the following happens. (assuming you’re fighting more than 1 Knight, and you target the one that isn’t using the 4++ base – and that you’re running Alaitoc)

Doom 1st Knight.
Knight rotates ion shields after 1st unit targets it.
1st WW unit does 6.125 damage.
2nd and 3rd unit target 2nd Knight
Knight takes 10.889 points of damage.

Following turn –
You lose 1 unit of WWs from the retaliation fire from the 3 Knights – maybe 2 units if you’re talking 1 Castellan and 2 Crusaders.

2nd turn
Doom 1 Knight
Knight rotates shields
Do another 6.125 damage.
Do another 8.167 damage to 2nd Knight if you have the 2nd unit alive still.

It just doesn’t add up over the turns to doing enough damage quick enough to remove the Knights from the table. However, if you add in Jinx, then you do not need to switch targets and 18 Bright Lance shots re-rollings 1s and all wounds, will kill a Knight on average.

But. you also then have to consider what happens, when you DON’T face 1400-1800 points of Knights. 810 points of your army is now setup to kill tanks, and, will, at most, kill 18 individual horde models a turn.
Likewise, with something like a Scorpion or a Shadowsword. If they get multiple turns of shooting, they can kill Knights – but, they aren’t going to get multiple turns of shooting most of the time vs Knights.

In order to kill 1 Knight, most armies need to be spending 1750-2000 points on taking them down 1 at a time, from full wounds to 0 in 1 turn. Failure to do so results in you losing your ability to continue to remove the Knights before they start to take advantage of their shooting and combat to take control of the table.

Windrider spam, has duality and options as well. Sure, it will do slightly less damage to each of the Knights if they have to switch targets – but, the beauty of it, is they do not need to switch targets in order to kill a Knight if Doom and Jinx both go off, and, they are able to easily clear up hordes and other units without problems whilst maintaining a high level of table presense.

When looking at the matchup 1 Crusader and 1 Castellan will, between them, kill 1 unit of 3 WWs or 1 unit of 9 Windriders. Both units die – however, the Windriders have the benefit of being able to use Lightening Fast Reflexes for an additional -1 to hit, which then results in the Windrider squad surviving with 2-4 bikes left. Losing 1 squad of Windriders isn’t going to hurt your overall game plan, as much as losing 6 Bright Lances would in regards to a Knight matchup.

Of course, in the WW situation, it will all depend on what you spend your spare 908 points on – just as much as it depends on what you spend the 356 points on if you use the Windriders. This becomes 176 and 728 points respectively if you take the required 180 point troop tax. 728 is a lot of points to help you out, but, the options are a bit rough for Craftworlds imo. You could run 2 units of Shining Spears and a Hemlock for Jinx, but, the Spears then get no support and you’re banking on a flat 7+ for Jinx to be cast. Or you could run Fire Prisms, but then you need to talk about CP costs and additional screening as you’d be full gunline at this point so you’re just inviting people to take table control and charge your WWs. You could even run 5 Wave Serpents (which is an idea worth looking into).

The only problem I have, is spending that much on backfield units that are generally static, has the potential to seriously impact you in terms of mission scoring.

Don't get me wrong, I would never run 9 walkers in a list, it was more of a theory crafting exercise. I rely on people cleverer than I to crunch numbers!
I have posted a list in the army list forum of how I'd try to fight a knight list which is flexible enough to hopefully take on other types of army too.

fresus wrote:
Oh right, the battle brothers rule specifically gives an exception to fortification networks, I missed that.

However, now looking at the keywords, you still need a Harlequin detachment to have access to the harlequin strats which includes the only reasonable ones for the webway gate

For killing the 3++ knight, you just can't really look past the haywire cannon from harlequin skyweavers. I seriously hope they don't get nerfed in CA as they are the only real way to hurt a 3++ knight. Good thing in addition, if they survive long enough to remove the knight, they are excellent at killing screens and hordes.

For my newer list I'm looking for some combination of harlequin skyweavers and troupes, a couple of hemlocks and a doomseer on bike. Probably an Eldar battalion coupled with a harlequin outrider.

Dont discount a Haywire Scourge Outrider detachment for the same role. Three MSU teams are under 300 points (plus a cheapo HQ like a Red Grief Succubus, bonus if you burn a CP to give her the Glaive and have her blender-ify stuff on the cheap) and have a non-zero chance of oneshotting a full blown Knight with doom support.

They generally wont survive the countervolley, but spending 300 points to take out a Castellan aint a bad trade IMO.

Aleo worth to remember we can upgrade some tactics, instead of a guardian bomb we do a wraithguard bomb, thats 10 str 10 -4ap 1d6 with elite slot wich can fit nicely in ab ynarri supreme detachment for double shoot.

Also the wraithguard melee can dish a decent punishment with their 1d3 dmg attacks.

So I'm thinking of starting Eldar. I play in a fairly competitive environment, ITC and Maelstrom.

From reading the last couple of pages it seems like the SC set/ new Wake the Dead. and a couple boxes of rangers are are good place to start. Any other suggestions? Looking to get to 2k.

Our most competitive units are probably dark reapers, hemlock wraith fighters, shining spears and fire prisms. It kind of depends on how you want to play the army.