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 bullyboy wrote:
Wraithknight down by over 100pts, that is good news!

Not quite "over" 100pts. The wording of the Community article said it dropped to just over 300pts before weapons. As the current WK is 402, it'd have to be 301 to be "over" 100pt drop. More likely it's between 302 and like 320. Either way, a very welcome change.
I might take out my 3 WK list for a spin again.

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Agreed, I think this puts our Wraithknight (at least 1 per list) in an okay place.

Sterling191 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Yikes, missed that one. Well, perhaps one of the stratagems gives them some sort of super hammer of wrath charge?

Unless it's on a 3+ or something, its not remotely worth the risk of the charge.

Depends on what you are charging. There's definitely a reason to charge a Leman Russ (or some other tank variant) with jet bikes to stop it from shooting. In that instance, the mortal wounds would be icing on the cake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A sword and board WK for 372 with shoulder weapons is still a tough sell for me. It's absolutely better than one at 472, but that's still too much for something that is too vulnerable. Now if they tack on spirit stones, then we've got some potential...

I dunno. Melee knights have +1 WS and attack over a WK; the WK would cost even with sword and board. In exchange for that +1 WS and attack, you get your invuln 100% of the time and access to much better psychic support. I'm not going to say top tier but I think pretty useful.

If the sun cannon could be something more like an AGC? That would then be legit.

Even with the points drop the inflexible weapon loadout will hamper effectiveness, also shoulder Brightlance or Missles would help

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
.... also shoulder Brightlance or Missles would help

Why these were not originally part of the model's options is beyond me. Nonetheless, they aren't in the plastic kit, so they will likely never be added as options.
I also feel like the shoulder weapons shouldn't be optional, similar to how a WL has to take 2 of either Catapults or Flamers

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So, I’ve been having a couple of discussions with people in regards to the new Wraith Host +1 attack stratagem and how it stacks specifically in relation with Wraith Blades with Swords and the Iyandan Relic.

Wraith Blades have 2 base attacks.
They get +1 attack if they charge.
If you use the stratagem they get another +1 attack,
and then, if using the swords, another +1 attack. So, before the relic is taken into account they can have a base attack stat of 5.

The question is, does the Iyandan Relic double the 5, or, does the additional sword attack get added to the total after the multiplication?

In the “strength modifiers and power fist” faq example, we see that the base stat is modified first, and then the weapon then applies its multiplication bonus. If the weapons “ability” is always applied last, then, this would result each Wraith Blade having 9 attacks in a turn they charge, use the strat and pop the relic.
If the weapons ability is taken into account before the relics multiplication, it would result in 10 attacks per model.

Another interpretation I’ve seen so far, is that the relic only affects the “starting” attack number (i.e. 2), and then the additional bonuses are applied after, giving a total of 7 attacks per model.

I’m personally leaning more towards the result being 9 attacks per model, due to how the power fist works, but I can also see it being 10 attacks with the relic popping after everything else.

Thoughts?
New Strat

Relic

I think it's only the base attacks, charge and strat that get doubled, as it says "double its attack characteristic". The additional attacks from the swords, other than the others, are applied in the fight phase "when this model attacks..."-style, so don't alter the datasheet, i.e. the attacks characteristic.The bonus attack from the stratagem and charge should get doubled though.
With things that happen "at the start of x phase" i think i remember the player whose turn it is decides on order. I'll see if i can dig up a source.

Cpt. Icanus wrote:
I think it's only the base attacks, charge and strat that get doubled, as it says "double its attack characteristic". The additional attacks from the swords, other than the others, are applied in the fight phase "when this model attacks..."-style, so don't alter the datasheet, i.e. the attacks characteristic.The bonus attack from the stratagem and charge should get doubled though.
With things that happen "at the start of x phase" i think i remember the player whose turn it is decides on order. I'll see if i can dig up a source.

Nevermind, i found the note in the designers commentary that shows it'll only be 7 per model.

Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength
characteristic, and that model is equipped
with a melee weapon that also has a
modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain
the order in which the modifiers are
applied to the characteristics and the
weapon’s Strength?
A: First you must determine the model’s
current Strength characteristic. To do so
apply all modifiers to it that multiply or
divide the value, then apply any that add
or subtract to it. Having done this, you
then modify this value as described by the
weapon’s Strength characteristic.

This shows that you do the doubling first, then all the additions :(

Still i now want to get a large unit of axe-wraithblades for my counts-as Ulthwe wraithhost. 4 powerfist attacks per model on the charge, especially if they get cheaper on t6, 3+/4++/6+++ seems tasty.

I know that the swords get an extra attack, but I exclusively use the axe guard simply due to resiliency. With Protect/Fortune, they are absolutely a nightmare to take out. 4 attacks each, or 6 with psytronome is pretty tasty, especially if you already spent a CP on Guided Wraithsight. With this new warhost, I'm going to have to revisit a foot Iyanden list again.

Sweet jimminy 40 point Vypers and Walkers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if I'm mathing right...a *48* point drop on Wraithlords?

The WK change is nice, but 415 for the HWC variant is still too much. The sword variant may see play at 365 to 391 depending on shoulder guns. The real winner to me though is the Skathach at 510 with the deathshroud cannons. Deep strike allows that variant to avoid alpha strike.

Windriders are now 18pts with the twin shuriken, which is awesome!

 mokoshkana wrote:
The WK change is nice, but 415 for the HWC variant is still too much. The sword variant may see play at 365 to 391 depending on shoulder guns. The real winner to me though is the Skathach at 510 with the deathshroud cannons. Deep strike allows that variant to avoid alpha strike.

But deep striking it means you miss out on a whole turns worth of shooting. Is that worth it on a 500+pt model? Not for me. But the Suncannon variant look decent now

 mokoshkana wrote:
Windriders are now 18pts with the twin shuriken, which is awesome!

I think the real winner is Scatterbikes. Scatter laser went down to 7ppm, which combined with the decrease on WRs themselves, makes a WR with Scatter lasers cost the same as WRs with Twin-cats pre-CA

-

 Galef wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
The WK change is nice, but 415 for the HWC variant is still too much. The sword variant may see play at 365 to 391 depending on shoulder guns. The real winner to me though is the Skathach at 510 with the deathshroud cannons. Deep strike allows that variant to avoid alpha strike.

But deep striking it means you miss out on a whole turns worth of shooting. Is that worth it on a 500+pt model? Not for me. But the Suncannon variant look decent now

I think forgoing the turn of shooting in order to protect your WK and set it up for a charge is (although at 9") is worth it. Plus with the Deathshroud Cannons, being 10" range, you've got really great options when you come onto the table.

 Galef wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Windriders are now 18pts with the twin shuriken, which is awesome!

I think the real winner is Scatterbikes. Scatter laser went down to 7ppm, which combined with the decrease on WRs themselves, makes a WR with Scatter lasers cost the same as WRs with Twin-cats pre-CA

Agreed, this is great news for Saim-Hann players. I also think that Twin-cat bikes now have some potential at that low price of 18.

the link to his page:

https://imgur.com/gallery/YsUf9K9

So many of our units dropped a point or 2 ...it really will add up.

 admironheart wrote:
...it really will add up.

Unless you also were playing lots of Wave Serpents and Shining Spears. Than it more or less evens out.

-

As a lover of wraithlords and falcons I'm very happy.
My favourite unit of three war walkers with two star cannons just got even more fabulous!

At 11ppm Dire Avengers is pretty solid. I would have liked to have seen 10ppm, but I'll take it. Now that rangers are nerfed horribly, I think they'll see play for sure.

I'm actually thinking mixed weapons on WRs might actually be worthwhile now.
There's now a 8ppm difference between Twin-cat WRs and Shuricannon WRs and Scatterlasers are right in between both.

So a potential build that could be appealing might be:
5 WRs with 3 Shuricannons and 2 Twin-cats. The Twin-cats acting as ablative wounds and being front and center as the unit moves forward to get range, so you can take them as casualties to extend enemy charges. 106pt unit

Or, what I might personally do because I have them modeled as such:
6 WRs w/ 4 Shuricannons and 2 Scatter lasers.
It's a nice even 150pt unit that can move in a way to get the Shuricannons in range, but not have to move the Scatterbikes. As you take casualties, you can take the Scatters first, as they are the cheapest. If you need to Advance, you only lose 2 model's shooting (or none if the Scatters have been removed)

-

Windriders with twin cats do look pretty tasty now. 162 pts for a max squad makes them two points more than a max defender blob. With two less wounds but greater survivability, without strats anyway, and only four less shots with the fly keyword and great speed. Plus they don't need the deep strike to get in range.

kingheff wrote:
Windriders with twin cats do look pretty tasty now. 162 pts for a max squad makes them two points more than a max defender blob. With two less wounds but greater survivability, without strats anyway, and only four less shots with the fly keyword and great speed. Plus they don't need the deep strike to get in range.

But sadly they cannot be compared to Guardian blobs due to not being Troops.

I'm still trying to figure out if WRs have anything to offer than Spears or Vypers don't do better. It should be that they're the cheapest option, but I'm not sure that pans out from an efficiency standpoint.
Spears and Vypers are more durable per point and are capable of causing about the same damage per point.
Besides "because I've had the models as my core army since 4E", is there any reason to take them?

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I'm feeling that five man avenger squads for back field objective holding is probably the way to go for troops now, three squads for 165 isn't bad value, at least if you look at it as a troop tax.
Vypers are more durable but lack the firepower, spears are spears, the only downside being that they have a massive bullseye painted on them!

Kdash wrote:

Cpt. Icanus wrote:
I think it's only the base attacks, charge and strat that get doubled, as it says "double its attack characteristic". The additional attacks from the swords, other than the others, are applied in the fight phase "when this model attacks..."-style, so don't alter the datasheet, i.e. the attacks characteristic.The bonus attack from the stratagem and charge should get doubled though.
With things that happen "at the start of x phase" i think i remember the player whose turn it is decides on order. I'll see if i can dig up a source.

Nevermind, i found the note in the designers commentary that shows it'll only be 7 per model.

Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength
characteristic, and that model is equipped
with a melee weapon that also has a
modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain
the order in which the modifiers are
applied to the characteristics and the
weapon’s Strength?
A: First you must determine the model’s
current Strength characteristic. To do so
apply all modifiers to it that multiply or
divide the value, then apply any that add
or subtract to it. Having done this, you
then modify this value as described by the
weapon’s Strength characteristic.

This shows that you do the doubling first, then all the additions :(

This will probably get lost in the CA hubbub, but I still think the designers' commentary (accidentally) gives us an answer of 9:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary.pdf

For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength
characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a
friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an
enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic.
That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then
fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength
characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at
Strength 10.

This doesn't exactly answer the question exactly, but it does show that the designers' intent was for modifiers to still follow sequential order; i.e. the S is doubled and then reduced by 1, resulting in a S of 5 instead of 4. So if we take that heuristic and apply it to the wraithblades, we see that the addition modifiers Fires of Wrath and Wrath of the Dead occur before the multiplication modifiers (i.e. in the charge phase rather than the fight phase). Then, the psytronome triggers, getting us to 8 attacks, and the Ghostswords trigger after that (as per the blurb that you quoted), getting us to 9. Basically, I think that blurb on order of operations is really misleading; if 2 modifiers occur simultaneously, you multiply first and then add, but if they're not simultaneous, you apply them in the order they occur.

kingheff wrote:
I'm feeling that five man avenger squads for back field objective holding is probably the way to go for troops now, three squads for 165 isn't bad value, at least if you look at it as a troop tax.

Storm Gaurdians might actually be better as "don't really contribute anything other than cheap CPs" Troops.
8 models for 48pts vs 5 models for 55pts.
Plop them in cover and forget about them.

I still like Rangers for their late game objective grabbing and an occasional MW, but I might throw in a min Storm Gaurdian Squad in as a cheaper screen

-

Now that rangers are nerfed horribly

Sorry I've missed something. How have they been nerfed?

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

Kdash wrote:

Cpt. Icanus wrote:
I think it's only the base attacks, charge and strat that get doubled, as it says "double its attack characteristic". The additional attacks from the swords, other than the others, are applied in the fight phase "when this model attacks..."-style, so don't alter the datasheet, i.e. the attacks characteristic.The bonus attack from the stratagem and charge should get doubled though.
With things that happen "at the start of x phase" i think i remember the player whose turn it is decides on order. I'll see if i can dig up a source.

Nevermind, i found the note in the designers commentary that shows it'll only be 7 per model.

Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength
characteristic, and that model is equipped
with a melee weapon that also has a
modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain
the order in which the modifiers are
applied to the characteristics and the
weapon’s Strength?
A: First you must determine the model’s
current Strength characteristic. To do so
apply all modifiers to it that multiply or
divide the value, then apply any that add
or subtract to it. Having done this, you
then modify this value as described by the
weapon’s Strength characteristic.

This shows that you do the doubling first, then all the additions :(

This will probably get lost in the CA hubbub, but I still think the designers' commentary (accidentally) gives us an answer of 9:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary.pdf

For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength
characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a
friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an
enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic.
That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then
fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength
characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at
Strength 10.

This doesn't exactly answer the question exactly, but it does show that the designers' intent was for modifiers to still follow sequential order; i.e. the S is doubled and then reduced by 1, resulting in a S of 5 instead of 4. So if we take that heuristic and apply it to the wraithblades, we see that the addition modifiers Fires of Wrath and Wrath of the Dead occur before the multiplication modifiers (i.e. in the charge phase rather than the fight phase). Then, the psytronome triggers, getting us to 8 attacks, and the Ghostswords trigger after that (as per the blurb that you quoted), getting us to 9. Basically, I think that blurb on order of operations is really misleading; if 2 modifiers occur simultaneously, you multiply first and then add, but if they're not simultaneous, you apply them in the order they occur.

The problem with this is that the Stratagem does not tell us to modify the attack characteristic. It just says they gain an +1 attack, which is a subtle difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kingheff wrote:
I'm feeling that five man avenger squads for back field objective holding is probably the way to go for troops now, three squads for 165 isn't bad value, at least if you look at it as a troop tax.
Vypers are more durable but lack the firepower, spears are spears, the only downside being that they have a massive bullseye painted on them!

New points:
Vyper with 2x Shuriken Cannon = 60
2x Winrider with Shuriken Cannon = 56

There's a massive durability difference in those 4 points...

NexAddo wrote:

Now that rangers are nerfed horribly

Sorry I've missed something. How have they been nerfed?

They weren't. Unless you were using them as turn 1 screens that also pushed back enemy units.
They can still do that, of course, but they have to deploy like a normal unit.

Personally, I think Rangers got BETTER, since you can bring them in on later turns to grab an objective.

 mokoshkana wrote:

New points:
Vyper with 2x Shuriken Cannon = 60
2x Winrider with Shuriken Cannon = 56

There's a massive durability difference in those 4 points...

Agreed, but look at this:
Vyper with Scatter laser/twin-cat = 49
2x WR with 1 Scatter/1 twin-cat = 41

That's an 8pt difference, which isn't much, but it show that when comparing the 2, maybe the same loadout isn't the best to compare
Afterall, WRs cannot take BLs, StarCannons or MLs and a Vyper cannot take 2 of the same weapon outside Shuricannons
I still agree, WRs are shafted by Vypers and Spears existing, but at least they're more on par than before

-

"+1 attack" means "Find the 'Attack' characteristic, and add one". It does not mean "And roll one more time to hit".

Bharring wrote:
"+1 attack" means "Find the 'Attack' characteristic, and add one". It does not mean "And roll one more time to hit".

Plus, the strat actually does say to add 1 to the attacks characteristic. The only thing that doesn't is the text of the ghostsword, which I don't think anybody can claim gets multiplied anyways (by PEMDAS). So all in all, I think this has to be 9 attacks per wraithdude (doesn't this sound fun???)