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Amishprn86 wrote:I just add in 1 Shadowseer, she gives you Quickening for that unit basically. I think troupes are a complete waste of space, i have a quin army and i dont even want to play with troupes. Wyches are literally 1/2 the points and are better in every way other than FP spam.

Shadowseer, 6 Skyweavers, done.

Just running with an out rider detachment? I'm thinking 10 skyweavers, 3, 3 & 4. Fully kitted, with the shadowseer.

Kouzuki wrote:I'm looking for some feedback between two 1,250pt army lists for an upcoming tournament.
.

Second list I think, but.
What's ya plan with the waveserpents?
What ya plan about takling tanks?

I agree the 2nd list has more options...and again you do have an anti tank issue.

WarpSpiderBrah wrote:

Second list I think, but.
What's ya plan with the waveserpents?
What ya plan about takling tanks?

 admironheart wrote:
I agree the 2nd list has more options...and again you do have an anti tank issue.

Thank you.

Generally my anti-tank comes from;

1) Mortal Wounds from Smite/Executioner/Wave Serpent shields
2) Hemlocks
3) Jinx/Doom Shuriken Fire.

I've never really had a big issue vs tanks so far, though.

Out of curiosity, what do people think is the best loadout for a Seer Council currently? Accepting that it's a big points sink of non-efficiency.

Max out resilience as Alaitoc with Conceal & Protect and just be a pain to shift? Then Jinx, Smite & Charge whatever gets close?

Lithanial wrote:
Out of curiosity, what do people think is the best loadout for a Seer Council currently? Accepting that it's a big points sink of non-efficiency.

Max out resilience as Alaitoc with Conceal & Protect and just be a pain to shift? Then Jinx, Smite & Charge whatever gets close?

It's far too many resources to make it work IMO. Some have tried and had success, I'm sure, but at the end of the day it is an expensive unit that MUST succeed with all its powers or just it just gets removed. It's too juicy of a target and can indeed be targeted.

Personally, I would have MUCH rather preferred the Warlock and Warlock Conclave to have been a single datasheet. Same with the Skyrunner variants.
It SHOULD have been: 1-10 Warlocks with Character and the following rule:
Conclave: All Warlocks in this unit are deployed at the same time within 6" of another Warlock from the unit, but each Warlock is a separate unit from that moment forward.
If a Warlock is within 3" of one or more Warlocks from its original unit during any Psychic Phase, it may reroll any 1s rolled for casting a Psychic power.

No need for Character and non-Character Warlocks. All Warlocks should be the same, be Character, each can have a different power and they get a same bonus for being close to members of its unit.
Done. 40-50ppm tops

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Oh I totally get that they are too expensive and as such there are better choices for WAAC competitive players.

My question is that even with that being the case, how would people go about using that unit to good effect?

I still use my 2 model Warlock Conclave since the points hike.

First most players don't even think of them as non characters

I hide them in vehicles to start or keep them out of los the best I can

I love having 2 powers to pick from. If one dies it is still a functioning unit.

Ive only had 1 round where anyone targeted them and I took no losses.

Lithanial wrote:
Oh I totally get that they are too expensive and as such there are better choices for WAAC competitive players.

My question is that even with that being the case, how would people go about using that unit to good effect?

 admironheart wrote:
I still use my 2 model Warlock Conclave since the points hike.

First most players don't even think of them as non characters

I hide them in vehicles to start or keep them out of los the best I can

I love having 2 powers to pick from. If one dies it is still a functioning unit.

Ive only had 1 round where anyone targeted them and I took no losses.

Certainly good advice.
I'm not really bothered by their points cost, but rather their lack of Character.
I'd love to be able to use them as Admironheart suggests, but I just can't rely on opponents ignorance to prevent them from getting killed.
That are a super juicy target, especially if you take more than 2. And since their whole purpose is to buff certain units, it makes no sense not to target them when you have the chance (with is anytime they aren't in a transport).

I guess you could use said transport to block LoS on them once they do come out. Or Fire and Fade, but I really don't like the idea of using CPs on a unit that should already be Character and thus not need to Fire and Fade at all.

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 Kouzuki wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
I agree the 2nd list has more options...and again you do have an anti tank issue.

Thank you.

Generally my anti-tank comes from;

1) Mortal Wounds from Smite/Executioner/Wave Serpent shields
2) Hemlocks
3) Jinx/Doom Shuriken Fire.

I've never really had a big issue vs tanks so far, though.

I have a feeling this list would struggle against a Knight or mech list.

I have a question are wraithlords worth it now because of CA?

 Asherian Command wrote:
I have a question are wraithlords worth it now because of CA?

Not sure if they're still a great unit, but as an Iyanden player, I will have 2 with swords moving up with axe guard around a spiritseer with psytronome and reroll charges. 95pts for the sword wraithknight is great, plus with Iyanden, the degrading statline is not as bad.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I have a question are wraithlords worth it now because of CA?

I feel the points drop is enough to bring them into contention as worthwhile units. Don't forget that some of the heavy weapons came down in price too. A dual Starcannon WL is now only 111 points.

I generally use them in 2 roles. Firstly with 2 heavy weapons to babysit my firebase and deter anyone from trying to assault my Dark Reapers. The 111 point variant I mentioned above is good as he can contribute plenty of firepower himself with just enough melee potential to deter lightweight attackers.

The second role is 2 Shuricannons and Glaive in a mech list. Advance them and they can nearly keep up with your Grav tanks while still shooting. Your opponent has to decide between shooting his anti-tank weapons at the tanks and their cargo or the Wraithlords. If he ignores the Lords, he risks a pretty punchy 2nd wave hitting him at full strength. With Glaives, WL are wounding Knights on a 3+ and doing D6 damage, enough to pose a respectable threat if they can get the charge.

IMHO the points drop is enough to let WLs function as distraction-Carnifexes. They are cheap enough to spam, durable enough to require dedicated anti-tank firepower to put down and hitty enough to cause decent damage so your opponent will be unwise to ignore them.

Lastly, T8 is a significant deal against the horde meta that seems to be developing. Massed S4 attacks will bother them a lot less than Dreads and other T7 unit.

Has anyone here ever tried running a list based on deep striking a fully buffed 10-man Wraithguard squad? If so what was your experience like?

I'm thinking about making a casual list that's all about the 10-man wraithhost bomb. With Twilight Gloom, Conceal, Protect, Fortune, and Spirit Shield we can get those Alaitoc Wraithguard to 1+/3++/5+++ with -2 to hit on the turn they come in.

If the rest of the list is made of some sort of fast, durable anti-chaff unit like serpent spam or flyer spam, then the T2 invincible wraithguard bomb could potentially be devastating.

I have tried it before but slightly differently, I did it with doom on the gallant my opponent was playing.
I used iyanden for the re-roll all hits strategy, doom and jinx on the gallant and conceal from a warlock skyrunner. The gallant had taken four wounds from my fire prisms but it melted once the wraithguard hit.
I'm tempted to try it again with the new invulnerable strategy but ten wraithguard are not easy to get rid of as long as there's reasonable terrain. You've got to hit them with a lot of firepower because they're like mini tanks. With conceal and lighting fast reflexes giving them -2 to hit it's not easy to bring enough shots to take them down. The fact that they're 30 wounds split into chunks of 3 doesn't help either.

Yeah I'm thinking Spirit Shield/Twilight Gloom really takes their toughness to the next level. They will have 2+ saves against AP1 and 3+ invulns against everything else. Kinda like spears but slower and tougher.

The only concern is to make sure that we clear away enough of the enemy screen T1 to expose some decent targets for the wraithguard.

I just now put together a goofy brigade with the WG bomb and min squads of shadow spectres and tempest reapers. And some vypers too. Might try playing this some time.

[Ulthwe Brigade] [2000 points] [15CP]

Eldrad Ulthran, Doom, Fortune, Executioner
Spiritseer, Faolchu's Wing, Revered by the Dead, Twilight Gloom
Warlock, Protect/Jinx
10x Wraithguard
2 x 3 Shadow Spectres
6 x 5 Rangers
3 x 1 Vypers
3 x 3 Dark Reapers, 3x Tempest Launchers
1x Wave Serpent, Vectored Engines
1x Hemlock, Jinx

I think three squads of three shadow weaver support weapons would be a good replacement for the reapers. Twelve extra points get you 9d6 S6 -4 rending shots on 45 wounds T5 platforms rather than 12 T3 wounds with the reapers.

kingheff wrote:
I think three squads of three shadow weaver support weapons would be a good replacement for the reapers. Twelve extra points get you 9d6 S6 -4 rending shots on 45 wounds T5 platforms rather than 12 T3 wounds with the reapers.

I think Weapon platforms can offer a lot of oportunities now. as you properly point.

The Shadow Weavers can provide a quite decent anti horde Firepower with enough durability to sustain some punishment. We sacrifice the always hit on 3+ for several more units and quite more durable also worth to notice the enemy need to focuse each platform one by one wich make them even more harder to kill than just shooting at a 6-10 man reaper unit wich also helps to draw some Antitank firepower from other threats.

Also i'm a firm believer that Vibro canons can be a powerful threat , for just 40 points we get 1d3 S7 -1 Ap Dmg2, and for each one Firing at the same target we start to get +1 wound and extra -1 Ap so we'll get to wound almost anything at 2+ with a -3 save from the 3rd platform firing at the target, the only downside it's the random shoots but i feel it's worth a shoot.

kingheff wrote:
I think three squads of three shadow weaver support weapons would be a good replacement for the reapers. Twelve extra points get you 9d6 S6 -4 rending shots on 45 wounds T5 platforms rather than 12 T3 wounds with the reapers.

I can actually agree with that means my support weapons can actually be used again

My Night Spinner was just a beast the first time I took it out...so Shadow Weavers should do well.

If I used Vibro Cannons I would take 4 to 6 of them.
That way you have:

1) you can lose up to 2 and still pull of the trick.
2) you will get 4 that can do the trick rather than just 1
3) you can target 2 different units with the trick if needed.

Hey friends, I made a quick 750pt list, would it do alright?

HQ
- Farseer w/ Singing Spear, Fortune and Guide
TROOP
- 10x Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon Weapons Platform
- 10x Guardians w/ Shuriken Cannon Weapons Platform
ELITE
- 5x Wraithguard w/ Wraithcannons
FAST ATTACK
- 5x Windriders w/ Shuriken Cannons
HEAVY SUPPORT
- Wraithlord w/ Ghostblade, 2x Shuriken Catapults and 2x Shuriken Cannins

Total: 740pts

 admironheart wrote:
My Night Spinner was just a beast the first time I took it out...so Shadow Weavers should do well.

If I used Vibro Cannons I would take 4 to 6 of them.
That way you have:

1) you can lose up to 2 and still pull of the trick.
2) you will get 4 that can do the trick rather than just 1
3) you can target 2 different units with the trick if needed.

Spinners have always been productive, they just havent been efficient. Post-CA I really dont see a reason why a grav-list woudn't triple up on em

so which is more points efficient.

Night Spinner or a battery of 3 Shadow Weavers.
They are close in cost.

One can be mobile. The other can hide easier. Different uses.

But on pure killing...which do you prefer??

Unless i need a very mobile army i think Shadow Weavers are better.

you are trading the random 2d6 Dmg 2 for a 3d6 dmg 1 if you are deploying them vs horde inf, you'll rarely need the Dmg 2 from NS (it may come handy in some situations) and if the situations arises you can relocate the Support weapons in your backline with ease and use guardian stratagems to keep them alive or boost they efficiency if using Ulthwe trait.

If only the NS may have the same firing twice boost as the Russ and Fire prism does then it would be a real contender and worthy to field as a more polivalent unit to deal with some vehicles too.

Depends on what needs killing. For hordesweeping, Shadow Weavers take the cake no question. But with bikes and things like Sentinels about to appear more often, that S7, D2 profile in high volume is looking more appealing for cracking light vees that rely on toughness rather than saves.

So with the points drops, is the Saim Hann scatbike back on the menu? 23pts for 4 shots with no negative to hit. Vs most hordes it will be wounding on 2s. I don't think the Vigilus formation offers anything for them, but a simple outrider detachment led by either an autarch or farseer skyrunner to help with horde control and take objectives early.

 bullyboy wrote:
So with the points drops, is the Saim Hann scatbike back on the menu? 23pts for 4 shots with no negative to hit. Vs most hordes it will be wounding on 2s. I don't think the Vigilus formation offers anything for them, but a simple outrider detachment led by either an autarch or farseer skyrunner to help with horde control and take objectives early.

If you are also running Spears and other melee units, maybe.
But competitively, WRs really, really need to be Alaitoc. They are just to fragile otherwise. And the Shuricannon is STILL the optimal weapon choice.
WRs are one of the few Eldar units that actually gets a lot out of Battle Focus. Combine with the (much needed) Ap-3 on 6s, and I'd argue that Shurcannons are better than Scatter lasers even in a Saim-Hann list.

Personally though, I like the idea of taking 2 Shuricannons and 1 Scatter laser per unit. Gives some slight versatility and shave just a few points off.

-

kingheff wrote:
I think three squads of three shadow weaver support weapons would be a good replacement for the reapers. Twelve extra points get you 9d6 S6 -4 rending shots on 45 wounds T5 platforms rather than 12 T3 wounds with the reapers.

I like those shadow weavers a lot. The minimum unit size of 1 makes for some interesting possibilities. Maybe I could consolidate the reapers into a single 10-man squad, then drop the serpent and bring 4 shadow weavers. The list would play pretty defensively killing chaff with reapers/shadow weavers/vypers before the wraithguard drop T2.

I prefer catapults on windriders performing the deepstrike catapult bomb similarly to guardians. If they survive the reply they're able to fall back and shoot or move to another objective.
For scatter lasers I prefer the look of war walkers, a squad of three runs at 162 pts with two scatters each. That's great resilience for the points and good long range anti infantry shooting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nine walkers with scatters is 486 pts, that's 54 wounds with the invulnerable save toting 72 S6 36" range shots. In an alaitoc list with rangers, heavy support and fliers they provide the horde clearance that rangers lack.

kingheff wrote:
I prefer catapults on windriders performing the deepstrike catapult bomb similarly to guardians. If they survive the reply they're able to fall back and shoot or move to another objective.
For scatter lasers I prefer the look of war walkers, a squad of three runs at 162 pts with two scatters each. That's great resilience for the points and good long range anti infantry shooting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nine walkers with scatters is 486 pts, that's 54 wounds with the invulnerable save toting 72 S6 36" range shots. In an alaitoc list with rangers, heavy support and fliers they provide the horde clearance that rangers lack.

Definitely looking at the shadow weavers and war walkers in my lists, although I'm wondering of the warwalkers sporting starcannons are a strong way to go. yes, they're 66pts compared to 54pts with the scatter lasers but 3 of them are throwing out some serious firepower. I do like your thought process though on horde clearance (add that with the shadow weavers for some extra fun).

I'm currently building a dual craftworld list, an Iyanden spirithost and probably an Alaitoc battalion. Having warwalkers with scatters is quite tempting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OK, based on recent discussions...

Iyanden Battalion (wraith host specialist detachment)
Spiritseer 65
Farseer 110
12 Guardians, starcannon 114
2x5 Rangers 120
8 Wraithblades 280
2 Wraithlords, glaives 190

Alaitoc Spearhead

Warlock 55
3 Shadow Weavers 111

Alaitoc Spearhead

Warlock 55
3 Scatter Laser Warwalkers 162
2 Fire Prisms 314
2 Hemlocks 420

Thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry to keep spamming, but what are your thoughts on axe vs sword guard?
Axe guard are 45pts per model, sword guard 35pts. I'm thinking of running a wraith host detachment but wonder if the 2CP to give the swords a 4+ invuln for one turn is too much of a price to pay. Axes have tremendous resiliency (with Protect and Fortune), and now with reroll charges on spiritseer and +1 attack from the strat, can do some serious damage. S7 AP-3 D3 damage vs S6 AP-3 1D. I think I'd rather spend my CPs on the +1 Attack strat and Guided wraithsight, than the 2CP 4+ invuln for the swords.
Especially with cawl's wrath and Oblits, I've seen unprotected wraithguard just wiped off the table. Of course, the conversation comes up about axes on foot in large numbers or smaller unit of swords in wave serpent.

Walkers with star cannons is my usual loadout, not enough shots for hoards but elite infantry or light vehicles are what I use them for and they're very good at that.
I'd swap the two hemlocks for hunter exarchs, make more sense to me in an alaitoc list.
With the blades it depends how you want to use them. With swords they can dice apart a whole lot of infantry, the axes are good against tanks. But they always go in a serpent, they're just too slow on foot, especially in an eldar list.