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NuhJuhKuh wrote:
Game went REALLY well in my favour

Sounds great! Glad the cards came out right!

 Argive wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Asurmen gives DAs a 4++, which sounds great. But how much does it really do?

DAs are cheap-ish troops. T3 4+. So they're going to eat mostly AP0 or occasionally low AP. Any AP0 cares not one whit about a 4++. And they're small (5 models) with reasonable range, so they'll often get cover - meaning even AP-1 often won't care about the 4++. So it's not so common it matters. And, even when it does, you're often only cutting casualties by a margin. At the very best, you could be getting half the casualties - but usually it either doesn't matter, or only marginally matters. Going from 5+ to a 4++ on T3 infantry would matter on cheap GEQ like Guardsmen, but at 11ppm, a T3 4++ is still fragile.

To make matters worse, it's only 2/3 of the wounds on the unit that benefit. 1/3 of the wounds on the unit are the Exarch - who has a built-in 4++.

I actually find the 5++ Asurmen gives other Aspects more useful - because almost all the other aspects attract heavier weapons.

Asurmen is a fun beatstick, but I don't think a large core of DA with him in the center is going to do much.

I realy like the idea of asurmen especialy if you can have 3 big blobs of DA's. The only gripe I have is he does not gte path of command or let re-roll ones.
A blob of 10 with protect and alitoic would be -1 to hit and 3++ Pretty good for troops.

3 blobs of 10 with asurmen warlock and avatar at core fanning out across the board sound slike fun.
Have yet to test this.

@Argive is right. The 4++ given to the dire avengers is a much smaller bonus in comparison to the 5++ given to the other more elite apsect warriors that are generally more important or at least deal more damage. I've tried footslogging 30 dire avengers with asurmen and it really doesn't have enough power on foot. You've still got to stick them in a wave serpent so they can avoid getting stuck in combat. I've always found the invuln to be more useful on fire dragons, reapers, and shining spears anyway.

So I found a Wraithknight I think I will purchase. This makes me want to make a counter list to my normal Saim Hann/Alaitoc list

This list would be Alaitoc/Ulthwe.

I want to use the Wraith Host Specialist detachment



So the Dire Avengers form a Screen with the Farseer and spiritseer Around the Knight and Nightspinner [ the plan is to give the Knight Fortune for the 5+++ with LFR and alaitoc for -2 to hit and Twilight Gloom for a 2 + save and the 4++ from the specialist stratagem. so I need CPs

The Storm Guardians will advance with the Warlocks behind the Wave Serpent

The wraithblades will move inside the Wave serpent [hopefully it wont get shot down but if it does there is a warlock to soak up explosion kill and I hope the Warlock by the Knight can cast Quicken on the Blades so they can make a charge on turn 2]
The Wraithguard unit will be in the Webway. [what craftworld should they be in? If I go Alaitoc then they can use the Spirit Talk of the Seers. If I go Ulthwe then they cannot. I could make the Autarch an Ulthwe unit and have him move up to support them???

My question is what to do with the Autarch. I can keep him back to aid the Knight+ NightSpinner shooting.
He could be Ulthwe and support the Storm Guardians or stay Alaitoc and suppor the WraithGuard/Wraithblades
(but with the Spirit seers...he seems redundant)

I'm pretty sure that LFR doesn't work on a Knight. LFR is infantry and fly only and the Knight has neither of them.

good catch...I get so many of the the pschic powers backwards as well.

I can jinx ANYONE but I can only Protect infantry and bikers.
Same with all the powers.

Glad you pointed that out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now if only the Revenant Titan with the Fly Keyword was costed correctly then LFR and Alaitoc would be a nice combo for it.

Yeah if only! Unfortunately the titan doesn't get the alaitoc keyword though, it gets conclave? Instead I think.

Btw on superheavies, anyone got any tips for cobras or scorpions?

I ran the cobra the other night, I know it's overcosted but I needed something to kill knights. It was pretty tough (spirit stones, LFR, and it does get alaitoc) but the damage was way too swingy. Turn 1 it took out a knight, turn 2 barely managed to take down an armiger (thankfully it was doomed) , turn 3 did absolutely nothing, then died

What's our best combo for reliably killing knights?

Doom Plus Fire Dragons/WraithGuard then throw in Jinx

Other than that Doom plus massed fire just to whittle it.

In losing and winning I have a list that takes out 3 knights.....Ive lost more than not...but I always kill all the knights.

2 Wave serpents
1 crimson hunter
4 Vypers
2 Night Spinners
Falcon
Wraithlord
Psykers
MSU Aspect warriors
Nova Lance Autarch Skyrunner
Some bikes

Very shooty…..Just pour everything into one then then next and so on and roll with the punches as best you can.

Hemlocks/Fire prisms plus other weaponry that fits your bill are very effective vs Knights.

Bright lances/fire prisms/Resapers. Also mortal wounds if you can get in range with psykers. No ion shields vs smite/executioner for you sir... .

anyone got any tips for cobras or scorpions?

I ran the cobra the other night

Replace Cobra with Scorpion.

Haha yeah for sure the scorpion is a lot less swingy than the cobra, but for 700+ points it's even more overcosted.

Thanks for the replies, looks like I'm going to be trying different combinations of those and see what works best, seem to running into knights everywhere atn.

I've tried 2 prisms before but found if you don't get first turn 1 is likely dead before you even shoot, so no linked fire, unless you take 3 I guess.

The trick is getting enough balance to be able threaten knights but at the same time deal with hordes. Some of the options above plus harlie soup with an outrider of haywire skyrunners might be the most flexible I think.

 Trashpanda wrote:

What's our best combo for reliably killing knights?

I hate to say it but allying in our dark cousins or Harlequins with plenty of Haywire weapons is usually the best bet then combine it with Doom from a Farseer for a a heap of Mortal Wounds. Rotated Ions shields and Ion Bulwark are no defense against Haywire.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Trashpanda wrote:

What's our best combo for reliably killing knights?

I hate to say it but allying in our dark cousins or Harlequins with plenty of Haywire weapons is usually the best bet then combine it with Doom from a Farseer for a a heap of Mortal Wounds. Rotated Ions shields and Ion Bulwark are no defense against Haywire.

Strangely dark elfs and clown elfs answer the same way. Take a bunch of Haywire and bring a farseer for doom. Haywire is overwhelmingly Meh with out doom.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Trashpanda wrote:
Haha yeah for sure the scorpion is a lot less swingy than the cobra, but for 700+ points it's even more overcosted.

Thanks for the replies, looks like I'm going to be trying different combinations of those and see what works best, seem to running into knights everywhere atn.

I've tried 2 prisms before but found if you don't get first turn 1 is likely dead before you even shoot, so no linked fire, unless you take 3 I guess.

The trick is getting enough balance to be able threaten knights but at the same time deal with hordes. Some of the options above plus harlie soup with an outrider of haywire skyrunners might be the most flexible I think.

Can't you hide 2 fire prisms turn 1?

It’s not meh, it’s rather average. Doom makes anything “omg wow”

 Karhedron wrote:


Can't you hide 2 fire prisms turn 1?

Not reliably, we don't usually play itc rules so if even a small part of it is visible it's fair game.

 Trashpanda wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:


Can't you hide 2 fire prisms turn 1?

Not reliably, we don't usually play itc rules so if even a small part of it is visible it's fair game.

If not playing ITC Rules do you at least use plenty of LOS blocking terrain? I never play on a board without a good big ole chunk of terrain, some of it LOS blocking

We use quite a lot of terrain but play it so if the shooter can see any part of the target, even through a window, you can shoot it.

Maybe I'll start bringing my own terrain!

 Trashpanda wrote:
We use quite a lot of terrain but play it so if the shooter can see any part of the target, even through a window, you can shoot it.

Maybe I'll start bringing my own terrain!

Yeah, there is a lot of stuff on the board that makes the pictures more interesting but has no meaningful effect on the play of the game.

An idea for contemplation.

Since 3rd edition I have literally hated what they did to the shuriken catapult.

The eldar are a dying race and they give their least trained units a 12" weapon ensuring high casualties.

Meanwhile armies like the Tau get super long range shooting.

For those who do NOT know....in the first 2 editions the Shuriken Catapult was the prized basic weapon used by characters, Rogue Traders and even Inquisitors.

It had a stat equal to the Storm Bolter but -2 saves vers the -1 for the bolter. It was technically the best range 24" weapon out there. (both had a chance at d3 shots and jamming)

Fast forward. I hate all the dice rolling in this edition. Then telling your opponent....these saves are at -3 or -4 and these are normal....just needless clutter.

At least I would like to see this suggested change. I want to know what other eldar players thought.

Make ALL shuriken catapults Assault 1 18" with a -1 AP.
Then give the Dire Avengers an ability called Bladestorm
In the hands of the Dire Avengers any roll of a 6+ to wound gives an auto additional wound.

This essentially keeps Guardians alive....are more versatile as they can stay at longer ranges. They will not do more damage but with the -1 AP there will be less dice rolling.

The Dire Avengers can show their superior training with the weapon...not just a longer carbine.

What would it do to Vehicles and Bikes with the twin linked cats? too strong or an improvement?

thoughts??

 admironheart wrote:
An idea for contemplation.

Since 3rd edition I have literally hated what they did to the shuriken catapult.

The eldar are a dying race and they give their least trained units a 12" weapon ensuring high casualties.

Meanwhile armies like the Tau get super long range shooting.

For those who do NOT know....in the first 2 editions the Shuriken Catapult was the prized basic weapon used by characters, Rogue Traders and even Inquisitors.

It had a stat equal to the Storm Bolter but -2 saves vers the -1 for the bolter. It was technically the best range 24" weapon out there. (both had a chance at d3 shots and jamming)

Fast forward. I hate all the dice rolling in this edition. Then telling your opponent....these saves are at -3 or -4 and these are normal....just needless clutter.

At least I would like to see this suggested change. I want to know what other eldar players thought.

Make ALL shuriken catapults Assault 1 18" with a -1 AP.
Then give the Dire Avengers an ability called Bladestorm
In the hands of the Dire Avengers any roll of a 6+ to wound gives an auto additional wound.

This essentially keeps Guardians alive....are more versatile as they can stay at longer ranges. They will not do more damage but with the -1 AP there will be less dice rolling.

The Dire Avengers can show their superior training with the weapon...not just a longer carbine.

What would it do to Vehicles and Bikes with the twin linked cats? too strong or an improvement?

thoughts??

I'm on exactly the same page. No wonder we're a dying race if we insist on sending our precious civilians into combat wearing paper armor and carrying a gun with the range of the average pistol. Why not give them lasblasters or the extended range cats?

The cats would need to go up in points a bit due to the increased range (I consider the ap change a wash). This would also make cats a bit less effective versus t5+ enemies and a bit better vs t3 enemies.

On a personal note it would make firing the weapons more fun. Under the current rules my shuriken fire falls into two categories: rending hits and "the rest, that you get your full save against". 10% awesome but 90% meh.


Edit: fixed copy paste math error in spoiler

You are giving up 50% of the firing with my suggestion....as it is Assault 1 now. I think its a fair trade off.

Well, fluff wise you just wouldint take your guardians to war. They are suppopsedly only ever mobalized if there is no other options.

I do feel that this super advanced race that has exoskeletal bioarmour that mould itself to your body and has antigrav tanks and shiz.. would have figured out a way to shoot further than 12".

Granted the effective range is bit more because battlefocus, but unless you want to spend CP or a psychic slot for quicken, advance roll is too unreliable to get in range effectively. You kind of have to end up taking a big blob and webwaying in at 12" or keep them well back with a weapon platform.

In my last game They just stood there and shot a bright lance 2 times the entire game. Giving them celestial shield for 1cp is cool tho when an enemy tries to remove the,. if they sit on an objective far away.

Fluff wise I feel like they would have figured out how to shoot further than 12" tho...

If they ever do a decent-sized CWE release, maybe they'll redo the Guardian kit. But it's not even in the top 10 for CWE kits I want redone. It is one of the crappier plastic kits I've picked up, though.

CWE haven't had a decent-sized relesae since the Wraith releases of 6E (Wraith Guard/Blades, Wraithknight, SpiritSeer, Wraithfighter/CH all at once). We did get a Windrider kit and a Windrider Seer kit the following edition, but not much else for CWE since 5th.

I was pretty sure we'd get a Ynarri release before a Craftworlds update, but seeing how the zombie space elves are getting the WD treatment (so probably no Codex for a while), I'm hopeful there's a decent Craftworlds update in the works, maybe even tied to Vigilus.

I reckon: big-assed Avatar, plain Autarch with the Glaive (y`know, the frikken CODEX one), plastic Aspects with new weapon options in. Shining Spears.

And Exodites...

Someone pointed out to me that there is a GW model of an Autarch on foot. It's Prince Yriel.

Yriel is Yriel, a special character. You don't expect removing [insert amount of SM commanders and such released] and saying "well just use Kalgar as your commander".

Actually GW has said in the past that you can always use specific characters as their general roll. So you could use Calgar as your generic chapter master or Yriel as a generic autarch.

 admironheart wrote:
You are giving up 50% of the firing with my suggestion....as it is Assault 1 now. I think its a fair trade off.

Ah, I missed that! In that case I'd actually make guardians cheaper, losing roughly 50% ranged effectiveness for 6" more range seems like a rough deal. This would put them slightly above a guardsman rapidfiring a lasgun at bs4+ when targetting geq, not even factoring orders in. In fact they would be outshot by unbuffed veterans at rapid fire range. This would put guardians in the 5-6pts/model range, and would effectively remove one of our infantry blending options.

I'd rather go the other way; the eldar are supposed to be lethal and fragile, and at least moderately smart about it. I think an assault2 18" s4 ap-1 gun on a guardian statline would cover those bases nicely, and I'd happily pay 9 (or even 10) points per model for that.

shortymcnostrill wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
You are giving up 50% of the firing with my suggestion....as it is Assault 1 now. I think its a fair trade off.

Ah, I missed that! In that case I'd actually make guardians cheaper, losing roughly 50% ranged effectiveness for 6" more range seems like a rough deal. This would put them slightly above a guardsman rapidfiring a lasgun at bs4+ when targetting geq, not even factoring orders in. In fact they would be outshot by unbuffed veterans at rapid fire range. This would put guardians in the 5-6pts/model range, and would effectively remove one of our infantry blending options.

I'd rather go the other way; the eldar are supposed to be lethal and fragile, and at least moderately smart about it. I think an assault2 18" s4 ap-1 gun on a guardian statline would cover those bases nicely, and I'd happily pay 9 (or even 10) points per model for that.

Aside the fact that our guardians should be in the 6 points range (just compare the tradeoff between storm and guardians defenders ) and the Catapult quick fix could be something like making it 24' rapid fire 1 and losing the rend or changing it to -1 and good to go.

At the end of the day we can argue but the whole truth it's that GW balance on even the most basic troops it's quite whacky mostly due legacy abilities and rules from previous edition poorly translated.
Battle focus changing from able to run without sacrificing shooting and allowing to move in and out of the front lines into the rush forward fix bayonets we have in this edition.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Yriel is Yriel, a special character. You don't expect removing [insert amount of SM commanders and such released] and saying "well just use Kalgar as your commander".

Yeah idk who told you that but they are wrong.