Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins!

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**admironheart**

shortymcnostrill wrote:
admironheart wrote:
You are giving up 50% of the firing with my suggestion....as it is Assault 1 now. I think its a fair trade off.

Ah, I missed that! In that case I'd actually make guardians cheaper, losing roughly 50% ranged effectiveness for 6" more range seems like a rough deal. This would put them slightly above a guardsman rapidfiring a lasgun at bs4+ when targetting geq, not even factoring orders in. In fact they would be outshot by unbuffed veterans at rapid fire range. This would put guardians in the 5-6pts/model range, and would effectively remove one of our infantry blending options..

See I think you are hung up on the dice numbers too much. Actually too many players get all fan girl about big numbers of dice.....lets ACTUALLY look at the suggestion. Someone summed it up like this to my proposal:

I haven't run the numbers, but I'm pretty sure this would make both avengers and guardians way worse in every scenario except shooting guardians at targets that are more than 12" and less than 18" away

Then thanks to people who know math:

JNAProductions wrote:
Wait...

Shuriken Catapults, right now, are S4 AP0 (AP-3 on 6s to-wound), meaning that for every 6 hits against Marines, they deal 2 wounds at AP0 and 1 at AP-3.
After saves, that's one and a half dead Marines.

Modified to be AP-1 all the time, they do 3 wounds at AP-1 to Marines.
After saves, that's one and a half dead Marines.

For Dire Avengers with the proposed Bladestorm, 6 hits does 4 wounds at AP-1.
After saves, that's two dead Marines.

So now we have a much more tactical shuriken catapult on our bikes, tanks and defenders..AND the Dire Avengers are even better than before.

I do think he based his calculations on hits.....so if you factor in the number of shots then the numbers would be more like this:

9 Guardians Old rules: 18 shots, 12 hits....6 wounds....factor 3+ saves....2.52 dead marines
9 Guardians New suggestion: 9 shots, 6 hits,,,3 wounds ...factor 3+ saves....1.5 dead marines

9 Dire Avengers Old rules: 18 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds....factor 3+ saves....2.52 dead marines
9 Dire Avengers new Suggestion: 9 shots, 6 hits, 4 wounds....factor 3+ saves......2 dead marines.

So the results are indeed a kill drop off for more tactile use. So to modify....would you make the models cheaper? Change the Bladestorm ability from Dire Avenger only to all Shuriken cats?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
9 Guardians shoot guardsmen/Kabalites/etc 18 shots, 12 hits,8 wounds, 5+ save..odds are 3.95 dead T3 5+ save targets

9 Guardisan suggested rule shoots 9 shots, 6 hits, 4 wounds...3.36 dead targets

Dire avengers same scenario ends up 3.95 dead targets
Dire Avengers suggested ends up 4.2 dead targets.

**Argive**

Its not a simple pound for pound dice exchange. U unit of dire avengers is a lot more survivable,offers better range than guardians without cp investment /psychic investment.

How often are guardians ever going to shoot at something with shuriken? How often will they survive to get in range of anything. 12" range is a bad joke. Intercessor is what 32"...?

Realistically you are looking at a blob of 20 in the webway 1 volley maybe. After which they will all die. At least with DA you can tank on the exarcha invuln for free before starting to loose dudes.

**NuhJuhKuh**

What does GSC hate about Craftworlds? Lots of shuriken? T6 Wraiths? Flyer Spam?

Conversely... what do they LOVE to see? I'm guessing short-range troops that basically say "Charge me"

Asking for a friend

**shortymcnostrill**

admironheart wrote:

I do think he based his calculations on hits.....so if you factor in the number of shots then the numbers would be more like this:

9 Guardians Old rules: 18 shots, 12 hits....6 wounds....factor 3+ saves....2.52 dead marines
9 Guardians New suggestion: 9 shots, 6 hits,,,3 wounds ...factor 3+ saves....1.5 dead marines

9 Dire Avengers Old rules: 18 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds....factor 3+ saves....2.52 dead marines
9 Dire Avengers new Suggestion: 9 shots, 6 hits, 4 wounds....factor 3+ saves......2 dead marines.

So the results are indeed a kill drop off for more tactile use. So to modify....would you make the models cheaper? Change the Bladestorm ability from Dire Avenger only to all Shuriken cats?

I'm getting 3 dead marines for 18 shots, 18 * (4/6) * (2/6) * (2/6) for the nonrends, plus 18 * (4/6) * (1/6) * (5/6) for the rends equals 3 kills. So the new and old rules are just as effective versus marines if using assault2, assault1 halves their effectiveness.

The same goes for the dire avengers i fear, losing half their shots effectively neuters them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
9 Guardians shoot guardsmen/Kabalites/etc 18 shots, 12 hits,8 wounds, 5+ save..odds are 3.95 dead T3 5+ save targets

9 Guardisan suggested rule shoots 9 shots, 6 hits, 4 wounds...3.36 dead targets

9 guardians against t3 5+ do slightly over 6 wounds by my calculations. 18 * (4/6) * (3/6) * (4/6) for the nonrends, plus 18 * (4/6) * (1/6) for the rends equals 6.09 kills. So the proposed rules would again almost halve their effectiveness versus geq in exchange for 6" range.

I'm actually not a fan of struggling to hold all the dice for a single unit's shooting attack in my hands, but given the dice-heavy state of the rest of the game we couldn't dial back only eldar basic infantry. That would just lead to every troop being rangers, and to vehicles avoiding shuriken weaponry (the weapon might be cheap then, but the cost of the vehicle itself is unchanged.).

I haven't run the numbers, but I'm pretty sure this would make both avengers and guardians way worse in every scenario except shooting guardians at targets that are more than 12" and less than 18" away

I agree with this assessment, with assault 1 you'd be trading 6" more range for a roughly 50% drop in effectiveness. That'd put guardians in the 5-6pts range imo.

**Marius Xerxes**

I feel like I'm being "that guy" but can the discussion about changing rules be taken to the proposed rules section of the forum?

**shortymcnostrill**

You're absolutely right to, my bad.

On topic: how are shadow spectres these days? I'm looking for a new way to krump guardsmen after learning that frfsrf lasguns work just fine on swooping hawks.

**shortymcnostrill**

Let me rephrase that: how do you use shadow spectres successfully? I have five that I want to field, I'm just not sure how to.

I know their rules, I'm just having a hard time imagining how to apply them due to their two quite different firing modes. Do you keep them hidden t1 to flame t2, do you keep then at skirmish distance with the 18" fire mode? Are they a suicide unit like fire dragons, or are they more like single wound terminators? What was your experience with them on the tabletop?

**Lord Perversor**

AS far i recall Shadow spectres dropped a bit due the cost increase (but still remained a decent choice sligthy behind spears and dark reapers)

Their defense relay pretty much in stacking minus hit , can run with a natural -2 if alaitoc and can be boosted to -3 or -4 with LFR or Conceal.

They always rounded my list and perform quite good, but i often play massive Wraith lists wich more often than not attract more enemy fire than them.

**NuhJuhKuh**

Can I please confirm something: a unit which enters from reserves (I.e. webway strike or whatever). CAN’T then “Fire and Fade” in the following shooting phase, correct?

**Gangrel767**

NuhJuhKuh wrote:
Can I please confirm something: a unit which enters from reserves (I.e. webway strike or whatever). CAN’T then “Fire and Fade” in the following shooting phase, correct?

correct RULEBOOK FAQ:

The rules for reinforcements say that when a unit is set up on
the battlefield as reinforcements, it cannot move or Advance
further that turn, but can otherwise act normally (shoot,
charge, etc.).
Q: Can such a unit make a charge move? Can it pile in
and consolidate?
A: Yes to both questions – the unit can declare a charge
and make a charge move, and if it is chosen to fight, it
can pile in and consolidate.

Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason
e.g. because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive
Commander ability, or because of a psychic power such as
Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because
of a Stratagem like Metabolic Overdrive from Codex:
Tyranids, etc.?
A: No.

**Argive**

shortymcnostrill wrote:
Let me rephrase that: how do you use shadow spectres successfully? I have five that I want to field, I'm just not sure how to.

I know their rules, I'm just having a hard time imagining how to apply them due to their two quite different firing modes. Do you keep them hidden t1 to flame t2, do you keep then at skirmish distance with the 18" fire mode? Are they a suicide unit like fire dragons, or are they more like single wound terminators? What was your experience with them on the tabletop?

I would skirmish at 18. Near an autarch if possible and 12" away because hopefully alitoic. The other firing mode is more for overwatch or if you really have to get too close.

**NuhJuhKuh**

I posted this before, but it got buried in other posts so asking again:

In our group we have a strong player currently doing GSC, and I’d like to give him a run for his money! I have a few preconceived notions, and I’d appreciate if the more experience among you could either confirm or deny my theory-hammer:

1) GSC probably hate massed shurican fire, but hate it less when it’s max range is 12”. To that end, shuricannon walkers > guardian defenders

2) GSC probably struggle a bit vs T6, so won’t enjoy having to fight Wraithblades/Wraithguard,

3)GSC probably hate -2 to hit flyers, but don’t typically bring enough heavy armour for the likes of Crimson Hunters to have lots of targets.

What do ye all think? Am I close, or way off? What have you guys found works against the Cult, and what do we need to watch out for?

Cheers!

**Asmodas**

NuhJuhKuh wrote:
I posted this before, but it got buried in other posts so asking again:

In our group we have a strong player currently doing GSC, and I’d like to give him a run for his money! I have a few preconceived notions, and I’d appreciate if the more experience among you could either confirm or deny my theory-hammer:

1) GSC probably hate massed shurican fire, but hate it less when it’s max range is 12”. To that end, shuricannon walkers > guardian defenders

2) GSC probably struggle a bit vs T6, so won’t enjoy having to fight Wraithblades/Wraithguard,

3)GSC probably hate -2 to hit flyers, but don’t typically bring enough heavy armour for the likes of Crimson Hunters to have lots of targets.

What do ye all think? Am I close, or way off? What have you guys found works against the Cult, and what do we need to watch out for?

Cheers!

You're pretty close. I play both armies and I have played this matchup a few times. Believe it or not, if you really want to hose GSC, use Biel Tan instead of Alaitoc and go for massed shuriken weapons. The reason for this is that GSC can easily get inside of 12", even if you play carefully and try to avoid it. Our screening troops - Rangers - are pretty worthless against them and may just end up giving them extra movement on the first turn if you put them somewhere they can be charged. I have found that (again, believe it or not) shuricat windriders are a pretty good screen because they are fairly cheap now, can be placed sideways and end to end to take up a lot of room, and aren't particularly vulnerable to massed autogun fire, which is mostly what you are going to be facing from GSC first turn.

I also run a big group of 10 wraithblades with ghostaxes in my army. GSC hates them. With a 3+/4++ and T6, GSC has a hard time removing them efficiently, and they will slowly chop up any unit GSC sends to attack them. They double as a nice anvil that can stand in the way of your shooting units and/or slowly plod toward an objective in mid-field and say "come at me bro."

Finally, as you surmise, GSC has no really good way to do deal with our flyers. Don't overdo it on them, though, because GSC is often just a bunch of infantry, and things like Crimson Hunter Exarchs are great at killing tanks, but mostly wasted shooting at 7 point acolytes.

**Trashpanda**

Regarding shadow spectres, I absolutely love them. The inbuilt minus to hit coupled with alaitoc makes them hard to take down, and anything that wants to charge them has to get through some nasty overwatch.

Give them farseer support with guide and watch them just delete units.

**NuhJuhKuh**

Thanks for the input @Asmodas! Unfortunately I don’t have all the same models as you, but maybe when I’m closer to an actual games vs GSC I’ll post my collections and pick your brains. For an optimized list. Interesting take on Rangers BTW - I’ve been finding mine mire and more useful, but maybe I just need to learn how to use Guardian Defenders better. What do you think of Dire Avengers? I have enough for three minimum units, each Exarch armed differently.

What about in game tactics/threat assessment though? What has to die first? What do I need to be wary of, what can I ignore? What can I distract with a throwaway unit?

Cheers!
Neil

**shortymcnostrill**

Thanks for the tips on spectres. I'll give them a try as a midfield anchor with some farseer support. Should be fun!

**Argive**

shortymcnostrill wrote:
Thanks for the tips on spectres. I'll give them a try as a midfield anchor with some farseer support. Should be fun!

Im buying some myself because I like the sculpts and the ruleset seems like a much better version of the warp spider. if you run them as alitoic they will be base -2 to hit. With warlock/spirit seer casting conceal, they would be -3 if power goes off. If you use LFR strat and conceal they would be -4... Which is just bonkers as they cant be targeted by majority of the game.

**wuestenfux**

shortymcnostrill wrote:
Thanks for the tips on spectres. I'll give them a try as a midfield anchor with some farseer support. Should be fun!

Well, it will be a high priority target at the enemy priority schedule.
And if the enemy targets them, they will usually die.
So they are rather situational. I'm not using them anyway.
The Reapers in the backfield can also fill their role quite nicely.

**Bharring**

NuhJuhKuh wrote:
Thanks for the input @Asmodas! Unfortunately I don’t have all the same models as you, but maybe when I’m closer to an actual games vs GSC I’ll post my collections and pick your brains. For an optimized list. Interesting take on Rangers BTW - I’ve been finding mine mire and more useful, but maybe I just need to learn how to use Guardian Defenders better. What do you think of Dire Avengers? I have enough for three minimum units, each Exarch armed differently.

What about in game tactics/threat assessment though? What has to die first? What do I need to be wary of, what can I ignore? What can I distract with a throwaway unit?

Cheers!
Neil

On the DAs, always run MSU. The free Exarch upgrade is a BFD. It's a 4++ 2W model for no upcharge. Best with 2xASCs (although I arm each of my Exarchs differently, because I like them that way).

Not sure how it'll work out against GSC, but I would think they would do no better than Guardians, per-man. Sure, they have 18" instead of 12", but that doesn't help as much as you'd think against the faster armies. So you're stuck with way fewer bodies, thus way less dakka, and despite being marginally better at surviving Autogun damage per-man, worse at it per point.

If you can leverage the 18" range well, you might be able to do some damage - but GSC have a number of tricks.

Hopefully someone more experienced in DAs vs GSC can chime in - I'm curious too, because I'm not sure how they'll play out.

**Argive**

Bharring wrote:
NuhJuhKuh wrote:
Thanks for the input @Asmodas! Unfortunately I don’t have all the same models as you, but maybe when I’m closer to an actual games vs GSC I’ll post my collections and pick your brains. For an optimized list. Interesting take on Rangers BTW - I’ve been finding mine mire and more useful, but maybe I just need to learn how to use Guardian Defenders better. What do you think of Dire Avengers? I have enough for three minimum units, each Exarch armed differently.

What about in game tactics/threat assessment though? What has to die first? What do I need to be wary of, what can I ignore? What can I distract with a throwaway unit?

Cheers!
Neil

On the DAs, always run MSU. The free Exarch upgrade is a BFD. It's a 4++ rerollable 2W model for no upcharge.

What do you mean rerollable?

**Bharring**

Reliable. Must have typed it awfully poorly for autocorrect to replace it with Rerollable. I'll fix.

**Argive**

dang!!! Got excited... I thought I missed something juicy from a sepcial detachement im not aware off

**NuhJuhKuh**

Been mucking about with lists, and have come up with the following (last time we played was 1750, so seems reasonable to assume the rematch, whenever that will be, will be the same):

Spoiler:

Theory is that Farseer sits behind large unit of Rangers, who I will deploy in the backfield rather than keep in reserve, to give them passive "Guide" with the Biel-tan Warlord Trait (just about everything else doesn't need the help to hit), and most likely "fortune" too to help soak up shots.

The Wave Serpents will each take a min unit of Defenders + Warlock, and fly around being irritatingly hard to remove until discharging their cargo at an opportune moment.

Weapons Platforms will sit on backfield objectives; Warwalkers and wraithlord can consume or act as more mobile tanks as appropriate.

I presume I don't need to explain what the flyers will do...?

Thoughts? Again, what should I be shooting dead first? Cheers!

**Argive**

If you want wave serpents to be irritating give them vectored engines. Always advance so -2 to hit sitting on objectives is mean. Id drop the flamers from wraithlord and crystal targeting matrixes and go full shuriken cannon plus vectored engines. -2 to hit and can still shoot.

Also maybe upgrade the warlock to a spirit seer for a better smite if you can. Not sure how usefull the shadoweavers are going to be. I used recently and was very underehelming. D6 shots and no base ap didint feel too reliable. Could drop them and take an autarch with reaper launcher to babysit the rangers and units and if you make him warlord you can gove him mark of imcomprobable hunter can kill some characters or force your opponent to be out of position with aura.

**Sterling191**

Shadow weavers are high powered rending mortars on a surprisingly tough platform that can be hidden in terrain and ruins. They're well worth taking.

**Argive**

Sterling191 wrote:
Shadow weavers are high powered rending mortars on a surprisingly tough platform that can be hidden in terrain and ruins. They're well worth taking.

At only couple more points I think the vibro cannon sounds more useful. I will be trying those out. D3 shots that get better with each platform fired. The first one doesnt have to hit to give benefit to the subsuqent hits.

Shadoweavers d6 shots and no inbuilt ap unless rending is a bit meh IMO.. I played it with autarch re-rolling ones and was getting about 1-3 shots a round from em for 4 rounds resulted in 0 kills against fire warriors. If you end up rolling a bunch of 6's and deleting units with lots of rend then you are going to have a good time for sure.

**Sterling191**

Argive wrote:
I played it with autarch re-rolling ones and was getting about 1-3 shots a round from em for 4 rounds resulted in 0 kills against fire warriors

You had bad luck on your shot rolls, plain and simple. Same thing will happen with VCannons with the same luck, except you pay more and have to expose your objective campers to counterfire.

What makes shadow weavers solid is their capacity to hold terrain annoyingly well and contribute harassing fire anywhere on the board for a modest price tag. Combine with Doom/Jinx support and they do solid work.

**tneva82**

Sterling191 wrote:
Argive wrote:
I played it with autarch re-rolling ones and was getting about 1-3 shots a round from em for 4 rounds resulted in 0 kills against fire warriors

You had bad luck on your shot rolls, plain and simple. Same thing will happen with VCannons with the same luck, except you pay more and have to expose your objective campers to counterfire.

What makes shadow weavers solid is their capacity to hold terrain annoyingly well and contribute harassing fire anywhere on the board for a modest price tag. Combine with Doom/Jinx support and they do solid work.

Yeah. Don\t discount d6 shot weapons just because you roll low steadily. That's like claiming weapon is awesome because you roll 6's.

How good the vibro cannon would be rolling 1 shot all the time? 33% of that happening vs 16% for weaver anyway.

**NuhJuhKuh**

Thanks for the input, but alas that’s how I’ve built my Serpents and Wraithlord, and I don’t like to proxy! Also, I’m of the opinion triple-shuricannon is a trap, and that a heavy weapon with CTM is very handy on what is a very tough chassis... but that’s a discussion for another day!

I’ve found the Shadow Weavers to be very good, certainly best value for point out of the three platform options. They have such long range, and S6 will be useful vs. T3 hybrids (I’m guessing). Previously though I’ve always deployed them as one clump, and for sure that means they can benefit from “Vaul’s Battery” or whatever the Firetruck that strategem’s called when the situation arises, but as I’ve got the slots for 3 in the Spearhead, figured I’d get them separately and have options during deployment.

In other news, just got some cheeky intel from another member of our gaming group, who’s played the GSC player most recently, who says his opponent manages to fit a Brigade AND a Battalion into 1500pts, and manages to get two characters with “no overwatch” :/ could be tough! Any suggestions for countering?

**Argive**

Spoiler:

Im not sying its bad. Saying rolling d6 hits and then converting those hits into/wounds and damage is not neccarirly reliable going by perosnal experiance. LOS ignoring ability is decent, im not bashing on what it can deliver. Will definitely use shadoweavers again and see if I can get more mileage out of them.

V cannons having a flat damage 2 and wounding on 2+ from subsuquent shots vs majority of targets and stopping units from advancing, thus giving board control seems pretty potent too is all aim saying and shouldint be overlooked. Only a couple points more. Looks good on paper.. I will let you know how it plays out in practice when I use them.

I like the idea of sititng with 3 of these on an objective in the backfield and using vauls wrath to cripple some assulty stuffs. Maybe Im just mad who knows...

Its a shame they dont count as a single unit when you take multipels as a single heavy support choice. Because you could buff them to onoxious levels lol!