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I'm getting different numbers than you for almost everything. For example, the BL Vypers expect to kill 4.15 GEQs (2*(2/3*7/6*5/6 + 3*2/3*7/6*(2/3*2/3 + 1/6))) while the CHE expects to kill 2.59 (4*2/3*7/6*5/6). I think you're in general underestimating the CHE by about 25%, probably because you're treating it as hitting on a 4+ instead of a 3+.

I would take a regular CH every time for bright lances. It can benefit from an Autarch on turn 1 and 3 easily (and turn 2 with some work), it can take a useful Attribute, and it degrades more slowly since the Vypers lose half of their shooting after losing half of their wounds. And it gets wound re-rolls vs Fly.

Ok, updated figures after i stopped being a complete ....

Bright Lance

Vs Vyper.......CHE
GEQ............... 3.888.......2.592
MEQ............... 2.333.......2.376
TEQ (5++).......2.246.......3.456
TEQ Stormshield.....1.382.......1.728
Primaris...........3.629.......4.753
T5....................4.666.......6.222
Custodes.........1.728.......2.247
T6....................4.407.......6.222
T7....................4.147.......6.222
T8....................3.240.......4.666



Starcannon comparison.

Vs....................Vyper.......CHE
GEQ................5.184.......3.889
MEQ................2.765.......2.808
TEQ (5++).......3.283.......4.493
TEQ Stormshield.....1.901.......2.247
Primaris...........4.493.......5.617
T5....................4.493.......6.049
Custodes.........1.901.......2.420
T6....................3.370.......5.185
T7....................2.246.......4.321
T8....................2.246.......3.672

Ok, pretty significant change resulting in my original thoughts being wrong. 1 Crimson Hunter Exarch is pretty much always better than 2 Vypers with an Autarch. And this strangely makes me feel a little sad :/

The question now remains though - Bright Lances or Starcannons?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
The talk of Wave Serpent heavy lists got my brain going and I threw this list together - mostly because I am in the buying stage and want to make sure I have lots of solid options...

.

I mostly play mech Eldar and have written many similar lists. A couple of simple things you can do will make a big difference:

1) Move all the Wave Serpents into the Alaitoc detachment. It may seem daft to take Serpents as dedicated transports for Fire Prisms but it's totally legal and means that if you go second the -1 to hit will make it a lot harder for your opponent to pop the serpents in your DZ. It will also mean that there is nothing for your opponent to shoot at that isn't a -1 to hit tank on the first turn.

2) Swap your Spirit stones for Vectored engines. You have Shuricannons on the Serpents so they can advance and still shoot. Combined with the Alaitoc trait they will be -2 to hit when advancing.


Edit: Actually, can someone please check if Serpents can carry infantry that are not the same <craftworld> as themselves. I'll feel silly if not, my latest list had 5 Biel-tan avengers sharing an Alaitoc Wave Serpent with 5 Ulthwe Fire Dragons haha what fluff?

Edit 2: It would also mess up em_en_oh_pees list as it looks like some of the psykers would need to ride in Serpents of different craftworlds. This may have caught others out too.

Dionysodorus wrote:
I'm getting different numbers than you for almost everything. For example, the BL Vypers expect to kill 4.15 GEQs (2*(2/3*7/6*5/6 + 3*2/3*7/6*(2/3*2/3 + 1/6))) while the CHE expects to kill 2.59 (4*2/3*7/6*5/6). I think you're in general underestimating the CHE by about 25%, probably because you're treating it as hitting on a 4+ instead of a 3+.

I would take a regular CH every time for bright lances. It can benefit from an Autarch on turn 1 and 3 easily (and turn 2 with some work), it can take a useful Attribute, and it degrades more slowly since the Vypers lose half of their shooting after losing half of their wounds. And it gets wound re-rolls vs Fly.

Yeah had the wrong BS number for the Exarch. Now fixed though. Using a base of 0.7777 chance to hit with them both, due to the re-rolls of 1. Our figures seem to differ on the Shuriken cannon section. I think this is simply down to calculating the -ap on a 6 to wound.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
The talk of Wave Serpent heavy lists got my brain going and I threw this list together - mostly because I am in the buying stage and want to make sure I have lots of solid options...

.

I mostly play mech Eldar and have written many similar lists. A couple of simple things you can do will make a big difference:

1) Move all the Wave Serpents into the Alaitoc detachment. It may seem daft to take Serpents as dedicated transports for Fire Prisms but it's totally legal and means that if you go second the -1 to hit will make it a lot harder for your opponent to pop the serpents in your DZ. It will also mean that there is nothing for your opponent to shoot at that isn't a -1 to hit tank on the first turn.

2) Swap your Spirit stones for Vectored engines. You have Shuricannons on the Serpents so they can advance and still shoot. Combined with the Alaitoc trait they will be -2 to hit when advancing.


Edit: Actually, can someone please check if Serpents can carry infantry that are not the same <craftworld> as themselves. I'll feel silly if not, my latest list had 5 Biel-tan avengers sharing an Alaitoc Wave Serpent with 5 Ulthwe Fire Dragons haha what fluff?

Edit 2: It would also mess up em_en_oh_pees list as it looks like some of the psykers would need to ride in Serpents of different craftworlds. This may have caught others out too.

Wave Serpents specify <Craftworld>, so you can't load up on just Alaitoc if you are transporting units from other Craftworlds. That is why mine are spread out a bit.

Random silly idea: Fire Prism assassins.

With two or three Prisms, one of them could do a 16" move to make an enemy character the closest model. It would only be able to fire once and with a -1 to hit. BUT if you then use the linked fire stratagem the other Prisms can join in and fire twice with rerolls!

If it's legal it could be amusing.



@ above: Damn. It looks like your Alaitoc psyker and one of your Uthwe Psykers have to footslog it then.

What's the thoughts on War Walkers and Wraithlords? I absolutely love the Wraithlord model, but it seems in a weird spot because it's fairly slow. War Walkers I keep wanting to use as mobile anti-tank platforms with missile launchers or bright lances in a pack of 3, pop up in the backfield along with webway striking units to provider a diversion and shoot things. However a unit of 3 with bright lances is a hefty 270 points.

I'm still trying to figure out how best to use things like Scorpions and Banshees; it still seems like they did not get enough. Scorpions are meant to be used against non-elites, but don't seem to have the volume of attacks necessary. Banshees are meant to be anti-elite, but S3 isn't enough to wound the type of things they are meant to go against, although them being changed to ignore Overwatch is definitely a benefit.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Has anybody tried a straight-up, edition 3.5 style serpent assault army?

One where you fill 5-6 wave serpents with banshees and scorpions, (and some buffing characters) boom across the table full speed turn one, then jump out and assault turn two?

Banshees and scorpions are overall cheaper than they were, so you get more punchiness than in 3rd edition. And you even have options now for assaulty wraithguard and worthwhile shining spears for backup. But I don't know if serpents are durable enough.

Would that work in 5th edition, or do most armies pack enough firepower to knock down more than 1-2 serpents with a turn or two of shooting?

Do rules like mandiblasters and sustained attacks get buffed by scorpion's cover rule or psychic powers that buff hit rolls? Or, is it just "rolls of 6's?"

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

@ above: Damn. It looks like your Alaitoc psyker and one of your Uthwe Psykers have to footslog it then.

Just the one Ulthwe Warlock is left behind to support the D-Cannon. The Alaitoc Spiritseer deploys via Shiftshroud, so while he is technically on foot, he will be up front with the WG unit when they dismount.

 Elhazard wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Has anybody tried a straight-up, edition 3.5 style serpent assault army?

One where you fill 5-6 wave serpents with banshees and scorpions, (and some buffing characters) boom across the table full speed turn one, then jump out and assault turn two?

Banshees and scorpions are overall cheaper than they were, so you get more punchiness than in 3rd edition. And you even have options now for assaulty wraithguard and worthwhile shining spears for backup. But I don't know if serpents are durable enough.

Would that work in 5th edition, or do most armies pack enough firepower to knock down more than 1-2 serpents with a turn or two of shooting?

Do rules like mandiblasters and sustained attacks get buffed by scorpion's cover rule or psychic powers that buff hit rolls? Or, is it just "rolls of 6's?"

They're all specified in the codex as rolls of "6+" luckily. So the buffs to help.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

@ above: Damn. It looks like your Alaitoc psyker and one of your Uthwe Psykers have to footslog it then.

Just the one Ulthwe Warlock is left behind to support the D-Cannon. The Alaitoc Spiritseer deploys via Shiftshroud, so while he is technically on foot, he will be up front with the WG unit when they dismount.

The shiftshroud is a good call, I'm not sure what else to do with the HQ from my obligatory Alaitoc Spearhead detachment. It would mean missing out on the very handy Biel-tan Spirit stone relic. A bike is another option if I can find the points.


Edit: +1 to hits don't help with the mandiblasters. That would be very good.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

 Elhazard wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Has anybody tried a straight-up, edition 3.5 style serpent assault army?

One where you fill 5-6 wave serpents with banshees and scorpions, (and some buffing characters) boom across the table full speed turn one, then jump out and assault turn two?

Banshees and scorpions are overall cheaper than they were, so you get more punchiness than in 3rd edition. And you even have options now for assaulty wraithguard and worthwhile shining spears for backup. But I don't know if serpents are durable enough.

Would that work in 5th edition, or do most armies pack enough firepower to knock down more than 1-2 serpents with a turn or two of shooting?

Do rules like mandiblasters and sustained attacks get buffed by scorpion's cover rule or psychic powers that buff hit rolls? Or, is it just "rolls of 6's?"

They're all specified in the codex as rolls of "6+" luckily. So the buffs to help.

Nice, so Scorpion units (can be) a reliable source of mortal wounds with the right buffs. Now, my only hesitation is their number of attacks.

Edit: +1 to hits don't help with the mandiblasters. That would be very good.

Or not? Either way, I think they will require some experimentation.

I intend to try 10 Scorpions and Karandra in a serpent with a spiritseer with enhance and the ambush of blades warlord trait plus the supreme disdain strat..

5+ to hits (4+ vs enemies in cover) generate 2 additional attacks and are AP-1.

Mandiblasters aren't to hit rolls sadly.


Am I right in thinking that every model in the enemy unit needs to be in cover to get the +1 to hit?

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Am I right in thinking that every model in the enemy unit needs to be in cover to get the +1 to hit?

Cover is a binary state, either a unit has cover or it does not. So if any infantry models in a unit are outside of cover the unit does not have cover.

Wayniac wrote:
What's the thoughts on War Walkers and Wraithlords? I absolutely love the Wraithlord model, but it seems in a weird spot because it's fairly slow. War Walkers I keep wanting to use as mobile anti-tank platforms with missile launchers or bright lances in a pack of 3, pop up in the backfield along with webway striking units to provider a diversion and shoot things. However a unit of 3 with bright lances is a hefty 270 points.

I'm still trying to figure out how best to use things like Scorpions and Banshees; it still seems like they did not get enough. Scorpions are meant to be used against non-elites, but don't seem to have the volume of attacks necessary. Banshees are meant to be anti-elite, but S3 isn't enough to wound the type of things they are meant to go against, although them being changed to ignore Overwatch is definitely a benefit.

I love them both. I have used them both a lot since the codex dropped.

Warwalkers with Beil-tan leader trait means you have a tough, mobile moving weapon platform that hits on 4's but rerolls all misses. I use eldar missile launchers on mine and work great. You can also take a second squad and cast guide on it if you want to double up on the strategy.

Also 2 Wraithlords with Avatar of Kaine and a farseer as a forward moving combat squad with dual shuriken cannons and flamers on the wraithlords. You get to move and advance and still fire, you get to reroll 1's, you get auto hits if something tries to charge you, and you get exploding 6's on the shuriken cannons. On top of that can't target the avatar unless it's closest, add a farseer into the mix for doom and fortune. Maybe on a skyrunner for extra toughness and wound. Give the farseer the spirit stone of anath'lan to garuntee casts. You get a powerful forward moving combat squad that no one sane would want to charge or get into it with. With the Warwalkers moving up behind for fire Support you have a great launching point.

Just picked up an (unpainted) Eldar army on Ebay that has, HQ wise, 7 Warlocks and nothing else.

Am I being thick and missing something? Is there any reason why I wouldn't take Spiritseers over Warlocks? I'm thinking I'll pay an extra 10 points to be able to indulge in a bit o' smite spam any day....

Thought I'd ask the question before mess about trying to give them all witch staffs (somehow). Assuming that converting Warlorcks to Spiritseers won't get opponents salty?

Wayniac wrote:

I'm still trying to figure out how best to use things like Scorpions and Banshees; it still seems like they did not get enough. Scorpions are meant to be used against non-elites, but don't seem to have the volume of attacks necessary. Banshees are meant to be anti-elite, but S3 isn't enough to wound the type of things they are meant to go against, although them being changed to ignore Overwatch is definitely a benefit.

Banshee's are solid by virtue of their extreme mobility allowing them to lock things down pretty quickly. Although you've got it right about the S3, without some support from outside sources, they aren't going to do enough damage to be worth throwing at units with good CC capabilities.

Scorpions, on the other hand, really don't have a lot going for themselves. In a best case scenario, assuming +2 to hit rolls (Enhance, and target in cover), each Scorpion is still only putting out .42 (.56 with pistol) wounds on a MEQ, and 1.11 (1.46 with pistol) wounds against GEQ. Altogether, damage like that on a 10-man squad is going to cost you 151 points (assuming Scorpion's Claw on the Exarch).

If you have Karandas with them in the same situation (Enhance, target in cover), you're looking at .55 (.69 with pistol) wounds on MEQ and 1.48 (1.83 with pistol) wounds against GEQ. But now your unit costs 301 points for the privilege (and honestly, his claw is probably going to be wasted against the same target his Scorpions are going after).

For comparison, a 10-man unit of Genestealers with rending claws for 120 points puts out .89 wounds on MEQ per model and 1.56 wounds on GEQ per model with no outside buffs or support.

Now, I know that inter-codex comparisons are not always the most relevant method of evaluation (especially when Genestealers still have to deal with a method of delivery, although they have now and will be getting plenty of great options for that role), but there's just something seriously wrong with the Scorpions' damage output when they require so much effort to not even come close to units of less cost.

pessa wrote:
Just picked up an (unpainted) Eldar army on Ebay that has, HQ wise, 7 Warlocks and nothing else.

Am I being thick and missing something? Is there any reason why I wouldn't take Spiritseers over Warlocks? I'm thinking I'll pay an extra 10 points to be able to indulge in a bit o' smite spam any day....

Thought I'd ask the question before mess about trying to give them all witch staffs (somehow). Assuming that converting Warlorcks to Spiritseers won't get opponents salty?

If you convert them to holding staffs, you could also easily run them as warlocks with singing spears should you ever want to. A staff and a spear are pretty close.

And warlocks are cheaper, and have one or two stratagems that you can use on them. Other than that, Spiritseers are better.

If you're going to run 7 warlocks, a Conclave might be the better option, if only because you'll get constant D6 damage smites and you're much less likely to blow up and damage other nearby units. Also the stratagem that doubles the range of your spells is more efficient on a conclave. Might be worthwhile, but I've not done any tests with it so YMMV

Yeah all good points.

The 7 Warlock Conclave seems like a large investment, points wise though.

I guess ultimately a mix of Warlocks and Spiritseers might be the go. Use the warlocks for buffing spells and the Spiritseers for Smite... given both can only cast once/round in any event.

pessa wrote:
Just picked up an (unpainted) Eldar army on Ebay that has, HQ wise, 7 Warlocks and nothing else.

Am I being thick and missing something? Is there any reason why I wouldn't take Spiritseers over Warlocks? I'm thinking I'll pay an extra 10 points to be able to indulge in a bit o' smite spam any day....

Thought I'd ask the question before mess about trying to give them all witch staffs (somehow). Assuming that converting Warlorcks to Spiritseers won't get opponents salty?

During 3rd and 4th edition, there were a number of units that used a lot of warlocks that were awesome, and spiritseers either didn't exist, or were expensive, vulnerable, and really only benefited wraithguard/wraithlords. A lot of us with older armies wound up with tons of warlocks (I have seven with witchblades, four with spears, and five on bikes).

So if you buy an older army, it will tend to have lots of warlocks, but no spiritseers.

Spirit Seers were new in the 6E codex.

The nice thing is that is doesn't take much to make Warlocks into Spiritseers (add a staff, maybe greenstuff over the eyes) or Farseers (just add extra to the helm).

I would recommend against using a Conclave though as they lose the protection of being Characters.
The Warlocks only real strength is being the cheapest HQ to unlock detachments. Sure a few Spiritseers would be better, but if you need 5+ HQs, Warlocks start to become appealing.
This is probably why they aren't 25ppm as that would make them too spammable.

-

 Galef wrote:
The nice thing is that is doesn't take much to make Warlocks into Spiritseers (add a staff, maybe greenstuff over the eyes) or Farseers (just add extra to the helm).

I would recommend against using a Conclave though as they lose the protection of being Characters.
The Warlocks only real strength is being the cheapest HQ to unlock detachments. Sure a few Spiritseers would be better, but if you need 5+ HQs, Warlocks start to become appealing.
This is probably why they aren't 25ppm as that would make them too spammable.

-

Yeah the conclave losing the protection of being Characters I reckon is the last straw for me.

I think with the models I have, I might be running 2 battalion detachments. So it maybe end up as 4 HQ's split between 1 Farseer, 2 Spiritseers and a Warlock - with the option to add a few more if I'm likin it

I ruminated on trying Asshatmen for all the 4+ invulnerable saves to Dire Avengers, but my God he is expensive ...

DAs don't tend to need the 4++. The volume of fire that ignores their armor isn't that high. Also, they're typically in 5-man squads, and the 2W Exarch has a 4++. So only 4 of your 6 wounds are really affected.

I love Asurmen, but his aura tends to help the other Aspects more. I see a lot more good-AP weapons pointed at my Fire Dragons and Scorpions and Banshees than my Dire Avengers.

I don't know, I tend to Ike 10 avengers, but I am starting to come around to the merits of 2x5. Unfortunately for me I build mine as a unit of 10 with exarch with glaive/shield because it looked like the coolest option :(

I still field my glave/shield Exarch, because he looks cool. I don't remember the last time his 4 boys have used the 5++, though.

With how our Aspect Warriors are priced, outside tournies, we really can run whatever looks cool on the Exarchs.

as far as wraithlords go they really should have 1 roll. Anti deep strike cc unit. Go bare bones and just give the glaive and let him stomp around for 113 points. Keep him out of shooting.

The War Walkers with Fortune can usually kill 1 of the enemies big units or make it so useless that the enemy will always decide the WWs need to die. Normally it takes everything the enemy has to shoot to eliminate them on their first turn. expensive but you got rid of one of their big threats and took a whole turn of fire.....by now your wave serpents and warp portal should be all in place to open some hurt on the opponent and likely your dark reapers wont come under fire as the WWs took the heat instead of them.

 Fafnir wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

I'm still trying to figure out how best to use things like Scorpions and Banshees; it still seems like they did not get enough. Scorpions are meant to be used against non-elites, but don't seem to have the volume of attacks necessary. Banshees are meant to be anti-elite, but S3 isn't enough to wound the type of things they are meant to go against, although them being changed to ignore Overwatch is definitely a benefit.

Banshee's are solid by virtue of their extreme mobility allowing them to lock things down pretty quickly. Although you've got it right about the S3, without some support from outside sources, they aren't going to do enough damage to be worth throwing at units with good CC capabilities.

Scorpions, on the other hand, really don't have a lot going for themselves. In a best case scenario, assuming +2 to hit rolls (Enhance, and target in cover), each Scorpion is still only putting out .42 (.56 with pistol) wounds on a MEQ, and 1.11 (1.46 with pistol) wounds against GEQ. Altogether, damage like that on a 10-man squad is going to cost you 151 points (assuming Scorpion's Claw on the Exarch).

If you have Karandas with them in the same situation (Enhance, target in cover), you're looking at .55 (.69 with pistol) wounds on MEQ and 1.48 (1.83 with pistol) wounds against GEQ. But now your unit costs 301 points for the privilege (and honestly, his claw is probably going to be wasted against the same target his Scorpions are going after).

For comparison, a 10-man unit of Genestealers with rending claws for 120 points puts out .89 wounds on MEQ per model and 1.56 wounds on GEQ per model with no outside buffs or support.

Now, I know that inter-codex comparisons are not always the most relevant method of evaluation (especially when Genestealers still have to deal with a method of delivery, although they have now and will be getting plenty of great options for that role), but there's just something seriously wrong with the Scorpions' damage output when they require so much effort to not even come close to units of less cost.

Why is it that you don't compare banshee to any thing but then walk down abit on scorpion dps when compared to natural genestealers who need outside sources to get them in combat. And are in a different armmy.

Scorps out melee banshee every time for the poin5s even wi5h execution on the banshee ( in my book not even that good of an upgrade) mind you this is before even getting +1 if the enemy uniy is in cover. Mainly the difference is the mandablasters and the claw exarch being so good.

Mobility wise I'd give the edge alittle yo banshee, but it depends on the craftworld you use. In sam-hann you get a pretty good chance to auto charge out of deepstrike. While banshee do really well charging from wave serpents, but then the wave serpents reduces the coat effectiveness of the banshee and could be abit of a tax.

Realistic I think the scorps are little better than banshee in most situations, as if your charging from a wave serpent odds are you'll beable to make the same first charge with either unit from that serpent.

In my opinion which might be different from reality o think scorpions are a billion times better. They can deep strike on objective or be used in most situations you'd use a banshee squad and the scorps would come out better.

The main reason I like Scorps is because they can pop up, so if you combine it with a Webway Striking unit and/or something popping out of a wave serpent, you have a multi-pronged attack.

Bharring wrote:
Spirit Seers were new in the 6E codex.

Not true. They were already available in the 4th ed codex, though back then it was just an upgrade for a warlock. They got turned into their own thing with the 6th ed codex though, yeah.